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Wales Vs England match thread for yappy now the match is going ahead

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Post by king_carlos Wed 22 Feb 2023, 8:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

What it says on the tin.

I can't believe Youngs has been dropped...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:38 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Holy cow....that was desperately poor stuff from 2 very poor teams. England did their absolute level best to keep probably the worst Welsh performance (I appreciate there were reasons) in recent times in the game. That really felt like a wooden spoon decider and I have to admit that watching Italy is far preferable.

Pretty realistic to expect 1 of the teams to finish 3rd.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:38 pm

JVP was running on empty for at least 10 minutes before Mitchell came on. Farrell does nothing. Malins - well we told you. Yes he's smart enough to get in the right positions but he isn't fast enough and he doesn't have the feet or the strength to make something out of nothing.

Otherwise pack went well and the outside backs were good apart from those mentioned. Had Farrell made his kicks it would have been 30-10.

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Post by bsando Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:38 pm

Wales did a little better than their last two matches but look clueless in attack. It's very stagnant and no real idea of what they're trying to achieve. England did well in patches but were also pretty poor.

I have to ask.. what does Borthwick see in Van Poortvliet? I thought his debut was awful and I have yet to see him have a good game since then. Makes a lot of errors and is not very quick either. Is he a development SH? Or riding good premiership form? Mitchell looked much better when he came on but it was at the very end when everyone was pretty buggered. His tempo certainly lead to the Lawrence try though, great speed of ball.

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Post by hugehandoff Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:38 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Real pace in that phase of play?  For England?  I thought most of the match was played in quicksand.  

Decent win. Wales looked better than other games but the 2nd worst side in the champ....us the 3rd.


seriously what game have you just watched? Wales were awful.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:40 pm

Rubbish. It’s back to Poland for Wales in the summer, then come out a new team again!

That’s a good result for England away from home. The performance wasn’t great from each team, but England’s was better. Under a new coach and given the strength of Ireland and France, England should be targeting 3rd - that’s not bad given the circumstances.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:41 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Willis off.  No breakdown presence. These teams are made for each other.  

Did he add much at the breakdown today? I thought he was disappointing tbh. Ludlam seemed to be more effective.

Think it was just the 3 turnovers. 1 a pen. 1 a pen against as Ludlam didn't roll. And 1 clear win. And he just takes eyes off others.

I must have missed those....missed about 5mins so possible. I'll check the stats tomorrow.

Willis was not as good as he was against Italy but he was good. A big part of the damage England did at the breakdown.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:42 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Real pace in that phase of play?  For England?  I thought most of the match was played in quicksand.  

Decent win. Wales looked better than other games but the 2nd worst side in the champ....us the 3rd.


seriously what game have you just watched? Wales were awful.

I thought they were better than the Scotland and Ireland games.....do you not?

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Post by mountain man Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:43 pm

Win which was what mattered. Farrell terrible off tee but he won a few turnovers and played ok. Steward just imperious.
Dombrandt good, justified being picked. Malins despite intercept pass looked really sharp.
Overall happy with that
Wales diabolical.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:44 pm

mountain man wrote:Win which was what mattered. Farrell terrible off tee but he won a few turnovers and played ok. Steward just imperious.
Dombrandt good, justified being picked. Malins despite intercept pass looked really sharp.
Overall happy with that
Wales diabolical.

Malins looked what now

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:45 pm

bsando wrote:

I have to ask.. what does Borthwick see in Van Poortvliet? I thought his debut was awful and I have yet to see him have a good game since then. Makes a lot of errors and is not very quick either. Is he a development SH?

I thought that was one of if not his best games for England. You should see some of his previous if you think that was bad.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm

The question now is what changes will be made for the France game - which I think England have a chance in if they can maintain their intensity. The starting pack should not be tinkered with, and Lawes is a step up on the second row subs. Still not convinced by Ben Curry, and I’d like to see Stuart given a chance over Cole (but I don’t think I will).

The question is, will Borthwick have the guts to change the backline? Lawrence has claimed the shirt, Watson looked classy, Steward is secure (though better teams will know how to shut him down better than Wales did). JVP is probably our best bet. But neither Malins nor Farrell impressed today and I don’t understand why Borthwick kept them on so long.

It’s not like Smith is an inexperienced bolter who will benefit from a few minutes here and there. He’s a Premiership winning fly half who’s the youngest player to make 100 Prem appearances, has won some tough international games himself and has been running the attacking system that England are learning for about 5 years. If you’re not going to give him a decent shot, pick someone else.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:48 pm

mountain man wrote:Win which was what mattered. Farrell terrible off tee but he won a few turnovers and played ok. Steward just imperious.
Dombrandt good, justified being picked. Malins despite intercept pass looked really sharp.
Overall happy with that
Wales diabolical.

Agree....Malins was decent, the intercept was poor. I wouldn't choose him on the wing but I can see why he's picked.

Watson was very good....sure somebody said he was finished or something similar earlier in the week.


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Post by Duty281 Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:49 pm

Malins was pretty sharp, to be fair. He created a good try for the number 11...admittedly the wrong number 11, but still he created it.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:Malins was pretty sharp, to be fair. He created a good try for the number 11...admittedly the wrong number 11, but still he created it.

An assist is an assist end of day.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:54 pm

Malins was poor. End of. Just like his first run in an England shirt he's got to that point where he's being found out.

He has the wit to be in the right place at the right time, for which he should be applauded, but he doesn't have the skills to make anything of it and his defense is laughable. Did you honestly think that he would get anywhere any time he got the ball? Did you think he'd win any of those high balls when there was actual competition?

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:55 pm

Fair play go Borthwick, what a nice bloke.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:56 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:This just feels like two teams trying their best to be worse than each other sadly.

England have a plan, are just executing it badly.

Largely what I meant. Wales have a plan too but are executing it badly.

The unforced errors throughout from both sides have been excruciating at times given there's not been much ambition on show.

That should seal a win for England but it has not been a good game or performance.

Mitchell's been good from the bench. As has Mako to be fair to him.
Yes, I agree he has. But why was Marcus Smith brought on with seconds to go, just to get his game cheques?

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Post by mountain man Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:57 pm

Nope Malins played well. Looked really sharp.
Watson also very good on other wing. Can only assume it's match fee the reason subs get on with 50 secs to go but nice work if you can get it

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 25 Feb 2023, 6:59 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
bsando wrote:

I have to ask.. what does Borthwick see in Van Poortvliet? I thought his debut was awful and I have yet to see him have a good game since then. Makes a lot of errors and is not very quick either. Is he a development SH?

I thought that was one of if not his best games for England. You should see some of his previous if you think that was bad.

I don't know what game you boys were watching, he was one of our better players. I'd have liked Mitchell on 5 mins earlier though.

Bit disappointed we didn't use some of those subs before 79 mins on the clock.

The Sinfield defensive intensity won us that game. Attack needs a lot of work, not sure there's an easy fix but at least the starting pack looks decent now and no longer concedes a boat load of penalties.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:03 pm

I said he played well!

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Post by Poorfour Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:07 pm

Interception aside, Malins is making a lot of the right moves, but I think he’s short of the pace and sharpness that he needs to make them stick at this level. He had several breaks into the Welsh 22 but always looked like being dragged down short of the line. His background as a 10 means he’d probably be better at fullback, but he’s not as good in that role as Steward.

I can see why he’s picked - I just think there are better choices out there.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:13 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:This just feels like two teams trying their best to be worse than each other sadly.

England have a plan, are just executing it badly.

Largely what I meant. Wales have a plan too but are executing it badly.

The unforced errors throughout from both sides have been excruciating at times given there's not been much ambition on show.

That should seal a win for England but it has not been a good game or performance.

Mitchell's been good from the bench. As has Mako to be fair to him.
Yes, I agree he has.  But why was Marcus Smith brought on with seconds to go, just to get his game cheques?

I wasn't a fan of the late subs. I was then annoyed when given one play to really show the coaching team they'd made a mistake by not putting them on earlier Smith runs down a blind alley and Arundell ran into touch.

The 55 mins subs felt to early and then Mitchell and the last few second guys were on a bit to late. Who'd be an international coach hey.

I agree Malins did alright but two errors cost us 14 points. The interception was sloppy and then the grubber through when it was an easy three in two that was criminal.

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Post by Yoda Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:13 pm

I'll always take a win in Cardiff but bloody hell that was poor. Farrell's place has to be under threat surely. We were lucky our defense was solid and that Wales were well off not offering even a fight at home. Feeling oddly deflated.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:23 pm

I feel angry, to be honest. Also being honest there were a lot of good things from England today, but where it mattered we were stupid.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:25 pm

Why did they bring the subs on with only seconds to gi?

Total waste of time.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:28 pm

Yoda wrote:I'll always take a win in Cardiff but bloody hell that was poor. Farrell's place has to be under threat surely. We were lucky our defense was solid and that Wales were well off not offering even a fight at home. Feeling oddly deflated.
Everyone misses the point about Farrell, jr.  It is not about what you see, it's about what you don't see.  You see?  You can't possibly know what he brings to the squad because it can't be seen.  So, if you saw it, then that was really not it because it can't be seen and you saw something else.  Got it?

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Post by mountain man Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:43 pm

Ha! England win away in Cardiff and everyone moans it wasn't good enough.
Winning was crucial, that's it. Yes points left out there but got the win
Do you realise last time Eng won there was 2017?

Plenty to work on but so much easier to go after winning.

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Post by Unclear Sat 25 Feb 2023, 7:54 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Yoda wrote:I'll always take a win in Cardiff but bloody hell that was poor. Farrell's place has to be under threat surely. We were lucky our defense was solid and that Wales were well off not offering even a fight at home. Feeling oddly deflated.
Everyone misses the point about Farrell, jr.  It is not about what you see, it's about what you don't see.  You see?  You can't possibly know what he brings to the squad because it can't be seen.  So, if you saw it, then that was really not it because it can't be seen and you saw something else.  Got it?

laughing
I thought that was a forwards thing though

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 25 Feb 2023, 8:11 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Why did they bring the subs on with only seconds to gi?

Total waste of time.

Throw of the dice to try and get the TBP. We couldn't lose the game but had one chance left to go for it.

Unfortunately Smith showed exactly why Farrell is still stinking up the place at 10 by running down a blind alley instead of launching any of the options outside of him. Playmaker is then on the floor and out the game and we just ship it wide to Arundell who runs into touch.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 25 Feb 2023, 8:22 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Why did they bring the subs on with only seconds to gi?

Total waste of time.

Throw of the dice to try and get the TBP.  We couldn't lose the game but had one chance left to go for it.

Unfortunately Smith showed exactly why Farrell is still stinking up the place at 10 by running down a blind alley instead of launching any of the options outside of him. Playmaker is then on the floor and out the game and we just ship it wide to Arundell who runs into touch.

The use of the subs was just a bit off again. The main impact looked more likely to come from the backs but all 3, especially Smith and Arundell just came too late.

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Post by Yoda Sat 25 Feb 2023, 9:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Why did they bring the subs on with only seconds to gi?

Total waste of time.

Throw of the dice to try and get the TBP.  We couldn't lose the game but had one chance left to go for it.

Unfortunately Smith showed exactly why Farrell is still stinking up the place at 10 by running down a blind alley instead of launching any of the options outside of him. Playmaker is then on the floor and out the game and we just ship it wide to Arundell who runs into touch.

The use of the subs was just a bit off again. The main impact looked more likely to come from the backs but all 3, especially Smith and Arundell just came too late.

It does seem too little too late to gamble on the BP. After Farrell's shocking last attempt at goal he should have brought smith on. The tactics used today are symptomatic of a hard nosed pragmatist who follows a clear path. It may be boring but the pressure brought by the kicking game and suffocating defence was a weapon, a sledge hammer but effective. Had Farrell been able to hit a barn door and malins didn't cough up an intercept then the score would have been reflective of the overall control England had. I guess we will have to wait to see if SB eventually allows the attack to develop into something that makes us excited.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 25 Feb 2023, 9:36 pm

I know Steve Borthwicj made Farrell is captain surely after tod ays game he as to rethink that?

Farrells kicking at goal was pathetic.


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Post by Poorfour Sat 25 Feb 2023, 9:46 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Why did they bring the subs on with only seconds to gi?

Total waste of time.

Throw of the dice to try and get the TBP.  We couldn't lose the game but had one chance left to go for it.

Unfortunately Smith showed exactly why Farrell is still stinking up the place at 10 by running down a blind alley instead of launching any of the options outside of him. Playmaker is then on the floor and out the game and we just ship it wide to Arundell who runs into touch.

They had 15 seconds remaining on the clock, coming off a set piece (so with a backline defence that was already set). They basically had to get on the front foot right from first phase ball to have any chance of doing something.

Smith’s line created half a gap in the defence and he drew at least two defenders and managed to recycle the ball fast enough that there was space for Arundell outside. The Welsh defence covered across and forced him into touch, but he made 15 yards or so.

As an attempt to produce some magic on demand, it didn’t come off but it was a reasonable play to try.

It was a waste of time to bring them on with so little time remaining, but that’s a reflection on the coaches rather than the players.
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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 26 Feb 2023, 7:24 am

Listening to Mat Dawson on the rugby podcast after the yhord loss in a row will Gatland now decide to drop he old guard, Will Gatland say to AWJ. KEN IWENS, HALFPENNY/ Sorry boys your playing days are over.

It does make you wander why Gatland decided to take the job for a second time.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 26 Feb 2023, 7:43 am

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Why did they bring the subs on with only seconds to gi?

Total waste of time.

Throw of the dice to try and get the TBP.  We couldn't lose the game but had one chance left to go for it.

Unfortunately Smith showed exactly why Farrell is still stinking up the place at 10 by running down a blind alley instead of launching any of the options outside of him. Playmaker is then on the floor and out the game and we just ship it wide to Arundell who runs into touch.

They had 15 seconds remaining on the clock, coming off a set piece (so with a backline defence that was already set). They basically had to get on the front foot right from first phase ball to have any chance of doing something.

Smith’s line created half a gap in the defence and he drew at least two defenders and managed to recycle the ball fast enough that there was space for Arundell outside. The Welsh defence covered across and forced him into touch, but he made 15 yards or so.

As an attempt to produce some magic on demand, it didn’t come off but it was a reasonable play to try.

It was a waste of time to bring them on with so little time remaining, but that’s a reflection on the coaches rather than the players.

First phase ball is the best to attack from. The opposition backs may be set but the scrum was at most 10m from the touchline. That means 7 of Wales 15 players have to defend most the width of the pitch. The blindside winger has to stay in case the 8 picks and goes so it's 7 on 6 in your favour. Doesn't get better attacking ball than that, especially when it comes out the scrum cleanly.

Smith does draw in two players and the ball is reasonably quick but most the space is gone, he's run sideways more than forwards so all the Welsh pack can easily fill into the line and the backs can drift across onto Arundell. It looked like either Smith bottled it and decided to go himself or he didn't trust the midfield to run make an impact. In those situations you want your 10 to pick a centre let them crash it up and work from the quick ball.

I suspect decision making like that is why Borthwick didn't trust Smith with the game in the balance even with Farrell being the attacking handbrake.

Just need George Ford to have a good game for Sale this afternoon.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 26 Feb 2023, 8:07 am

I think Smith was going to put it wider quicker but the Welsh defence came up quickly and he decided not to do a Malins. Smith is a puzzle for Borthwick now, though not that much of a difficult one. He needs to play our best fly half, and I've come round to the fact that it needs to be without Farrell at 12.

I think there'll be a couple of tweaks to the team for France.

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Post by mountain man Sun 26 Feb 2023, 8:22 am

I cannot see Borthwick starting any 10 other than Farrell for Ireland or France matches. Unless he's injured he'll start at 10. Farrell woeful kicking but defence was good and won turnovers but can argue that's not exactly what you want your fly half to be known for.
Pretty obvious subs getting on with seconds to go was to give them match fee/cap. Pointless but guess it's a "reward".

I'm not saying that's what should happen but it's what will happen.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 26 Feb 2023, 8:35 am

Farrells kicking is a concern though. Contributed to the Scotland defeat. Nearly did here.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sun 26 Feb 2023, 8:45 am

Congrats England. Stayed away from here yesterday as I went out for the game. My opinion, for what it’s worth: Christ, not a good advert for NH rugby! Possibly the worst Wales I’ve seen in 20 years. Did we actually create anything? England clearly a bit better but didn’t need to be great. Two bald men fighting over a comb.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 26 Feb 2023, 8:53 am

It was a typical Wales v England game but England should really have won by 20.
At times England proved they had the handling skills to move the ball.
A great first phase try.
I do think like others Borthwick has boxed himself naming Farrell as Captain.
Swap Smith or Ford for Farrell would be transformative.

Wales I believe should have started with Jenkins & Raffell. They are the future & Wales had nothing to lose & plenty to gain

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Post by Yoda Sun 26 Feb 2023, 10:12 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It was a typical Wales v England game but England should really have won by 20.
At times England proved they had the handling skills to move the ball.
A great first phase try.
I do think like others Borthwick has boxed himself naming Farrell as Captain.
Swap Smith or Ford for Farrell would be transformative.

Wales I believe should have started with Jenkins & Raffell. They are the future & Wales had nothing to lose & plenty to gain

Jenkins and Tommy ref didn't have much of an impact as England had the breakdown won all day. England's ruck defence was the best I've seen it in years with regards decision making and attacking at the right time to slow it down. Willis was a bloody menace and drew always drew in multiple clearers as did dombrant and Ludlum who were also a pain at the breakdown. The reset line defence with constant press had an air of a well drilled league team and for once our penalty count was tiny. Defenses win matches. Wales just lost their way and played into England's hands. They needed to play with chaos so the personal picked didn't match what they needed. The welsh lad at 10 was boxed in and battered all game and wasn't given many options and dare I say lrz and Adams didn't look for work.

What is probably more concerning for the Welsh is their lack of ball carriers in the pack. Christ was repeatedly used but had a double tackle waiting for him, beard was anonymous and poor ken tried taking us on but took a nasty collision early and never looked the same after it. It was a bludgeon job.

Last one I promise, finally the crowd didn't lift the team. What has happened to the atmosphere at the millennium?

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 26 Feb 2023, 10:12 am

Wales vs. England, it is always nervy and (often) agony to watch. It seemed to me that both teams looked nervous and afraid of losing. In Wales' case it was probably a confidence thing, lots of disruptions and new combinations. In England's case is was the fear of losing a game that they knew they really should win.

History tells us that Wales usually have a purple patch in these matches and England struggle to change the momentum, I kept waiting for it, but it never really materialised. They were (without trying to be insulting) like a big punching bag, waiting to take punishment.

I think if Farrell had kicked his points we would have gone on and got a bonus point, it would have given them the breathing space to be more expansive.

I know the attack wasn't perfect, but when they chose to keep the ball in hand, they looked better than they have for a while. I'm not going to get too excited, but there are signs to be more optimistic about.
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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sun 26 Feb 2023, 10:23 am

Yoda wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It was a typical Wales v England game but England should really have won by 20.
At times England proved they had the handling skills to move the ball.
A great first phase try.
I do think like others Borthwick has boxed himself naming Farrell as Captain.
Swap Smith or Ford for Farrell would be transformative.

Wales I believe should have started with Jenkins & Raffell. They are the future & Wales had nothing to lose & plenty to gain

Jenkins and Tommy ref didn't have much of an impact as England had the breakdown won all day. England's ruck defence was the best I've seen it in years with regards decision making and attacking at the right time to slow it down. Willis was a bloody menace and drew always drew in multiple clearers as did dombrant and Ludlum who were also a pain at the breakdown. The reset line defence with constant press had an air of a well Very Happy drilled league team and for once our penalty count was tiny. Defenses win matches. Wales just lost their way and played into England's hands. They needed to play with chaos so the personal picked didn't match what they needed. The welsh lad at 10 was boxed in and battered all game and wasn't given many options and dare I say  lrz and Adams didn't look for work.

What is probably more concerning for the Welsh is their lack of ball carriers in the pack. Christ was repeatedly used but had a double tackle waiting for him, beard was anonymous and poor ken tried taking us on but took a nasty collision early and  never looked the same after it. It was a bludgeon job.

Last one I promise, finally the crowd didn't lift the team. What has happened to the atmosphere at the millennium?

By all accounts it was full of English fans! Thousands of tickets resold to fans from ‘across the bridge’. So blame yourselves! Very Happy

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sun 26 Feb 2023, 10:25 am

First win in Cardiff for England since 2017. A very surprising stat, for me. Thought they’d won much more recently.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 26 Feb 2023, 10:43 am

I am not sure what to make of yeterday, some good things a lot of bad.

Defence, definately one of the good things, the ridiculous pass from Malins to Zammit apart it looked solid, especially in what is usually our weak area, 5m out, the back row were excellent there as was Lawrence, played like a flanker in those areas. Good to see Ludlam getting the praise he deserves.

Attack, both good and bad, when things came together it looked good, but at other times like it was wading through treacle. I have always liked Slade, but he seems to have lost that nouse he had about when to kick and when to play or pass, you just don't see him taking on players even forwards any more. Malins flatters to deceive, blistering accelleration puts him into space where lack of place allows him to be closed down very quickly, we really need someone that can be more effective ball in hand.

Farrell is there for his leadership and his kicking, he is no longer a great international quality 10. If the kicking goes then he needs to be replaced and it has gone. both off the tee and tactically. Send him back to Sarrie to get his game back in order and then bring him back.

Watson, pure class although he did seem to lose the flight of a coulpe of balls earlier on.

JvP, not up to the standard he was when he was first capped, on the cameos we have seen so far, Mitchell is better in every department, but probably too fast for Farrell to keep up his pace.

Tight 5, very good although Itoje still not playing like we know he can. Not many countroes have a tight 5 as mobile as them that can also produce such a solid set piece.

Backrow, absolutely lost why every kick off went to the layer likely to cause the most damage, Dombrandt. He didn't do much with it to be fair, but was solid and got it to where it needed to be for JvP to make the clearance. Ludlam and Willis just carried on from last week.

For France I would like to see Mitchell start with Smith (M), Arundell come in for Malins (dropped out of squad), Freeman come onto the bench covers wing and full back. JvP and Farrell to bench to tighten things up if necessary. Pack as is including replacements.

Won't happen, but at least give the alternatives for than 5 minutes and with combinations that are likely to work. Stop trying to put square pegs in round holes.
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Post by lostinwales Sun 26 Feb 2023, 10:57 am

On JVP - if you just look at the first half then he was good. Not amazing but very much at home. If you include the 2nd half then there was that period (10 mins or so?) where England looked out of ideas, with the ball going back to him and him just hoofing it up the pitch with all shape or accuracy gone. He was awful at that point but I suspect out of gas.

We are all subjective in our opinions. I am happy with JVP just wish he'd been subbed at least 10 minutes earlier, especially given the energy and direction Mitchell brought when he got on the pitch.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun 26 Feb 2023, 11:12 am

As a neutral I have to say that was by far the least entertaining game of the 6Nations so far - a bit of a yawn feast.

Having said that some aspects of real positivity for England especially up front - no starter played badly.
The backs still look like a dogs breakfast - of the starters only Lawrence, Watson and Steward shone for me.

The rest were poor

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 26 Feb 2023, 12:10 pm

With three games into the new Borthwick era, we are starting to gain some insights.

In general, the pack is very good. No real issues there.

We knew this would be kick-mania, and we are not surprised.  Also a fair amount of up the jumper stuff, and without Lawrence, this would not be able to happen consistently.  So, yes, he can play Rugby at a high level.  Just pass him the damn ball.....

Borthwick also seems wedded to players who either helped get him here or players he made part of his initial squads.  Only one of those players sent out was Youngs, and that was so clear to everyone.  Just took Borthwick a couple of matches to see.  

He does seem wedded in some regard to Ben Curry and Malins, to me the two players performing at the lowest level so far,  Curry overwhelmed and Malins gives a lot of points away.  

Also doesn't seem to see when players are slowing down.  One could visibly see that JvP was on 'E', yet Borthwick persevered.  Jamie George was gassed - again - but clearly no confidence in Walker, who may never be in an England squad again.

Where was Slade on Saturday?  Looking for the OHC invisible man award?    

The attack was better but the closer to the goal line the less they seemed like scoring.   So bizarre for me that with playmakers on the bench, we don't play them.  Why are they there?

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Post by mountain man Sun 26 Feb 2023, 12:22 pm

Problem is Borthwick made Farrell captain. I and others said this as soon as it was announced it was a mistake as now it seems highly unlikely he will drop him.
I dont think Farrell was as bad as some are saying(apart from even I could have kicked better) but he's not exactly convincing anyone he should be in team.

I thought Malins was good actually, yep a silly intercept pass but it happens. He looked very sharp and I wouldn't drop him. If he was replaced then who with? Start Arundell? Big call for two massive games coming up.
Slade is a conundrum. Can be such a good player at times but drifts in and out of games. However, think Eng need to keep some consistency in team and him and Lawrence got shirts for now.

JvP definitley gone off boil. I'd start Mitchell with JvP bench for France. See how that goes.
Earl on bench instead of Curry.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 26 Feb 2023, 1:16 pm

lostinwales wrote:On JVP - if you just look at the first half then he was good. Not amazing but very much at home. If you include the 2nd half then there was that period (10 mins or so?) where England looked out of ideas, with the ball going back to him and him just hoofing it up the pitch with all shape or accuracy gone. He was awful at that point but I suspect out of gas.

We are all subjective in our opinions. I am happy with JVP just wish he'd been subbed at least 10 minutes earlier, especially given the energy and direction Mitchell brought when he got on the pitch.

Yeah I agree with that. JVP was very good in the first half and did a lot of work in defence in the sweeper role. The couple of errors came in the second half as he tired. Mitchell looked energetic off the bench (as he should be) and it suits his style of play to be the impact man. We definitely needed him on earlier though. 55/60 mins and Mitchell needs to be on. It'll help JVP as well because he knows he can empty the tank and not have to save anything.

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