Courtney Lawes

First topic message reminder :

Am I the only one who thinks he's just quite Poopie?

Commentators go on about him 'being an athlete' and extremely physical, but he only puts big hits in on scrum halves and backs alike, not great in the tight, not great in the loose (see missed tackle on Fofana) and his ball carrying is equal to a beanpole.

I'm not a rugby genius so probably have missed it but what exactly does he do that everyone seems so fond of?

EDIT: according to ESPN's stats in the first half he's missed 4 tackles. That's shocking for any player let alone a lock-come-flanker

Ah Hood..thats a mystery isnt it...

I'd have him in the EPS...but what ever happened during that half time in the Saxons game a few years back musnt have been pleasant...and must have involved Lancs.

Ive pushed his name for a while now....and i still think he has the potential to play at that level...theres only one way to find out...if he fails then hey fair do's.
But it says something when you hear Irish fans say they'll accept losing Corbs etc...but it would be a disaster if they lost Garvey!

But at the same time i do believe our second row options are improving at quite a pace.

Stephen Jones (journo) and Stuart Barnes had both been suggesting Lawes would be a world Class 6 (maybe why Jones overmarked him this weekend). I bet like many journo/pundits that has been erased form their memory banks.

Hood83 wrote:What about Garvey Geordie?!

How Garvey isn't in the Saxons squad remains a mystery to many I think. Given Lancasters ruthlessness with most selection the fact that Botha remains in the Saxons is a bit of a mystery with several guys playing very well. Continuing my determination to have a pecking order in every comment I post recently, below would be my first choices for the EPS and Saxons locks regardless of injury:

EPS - Parling, Launchberry, Lawes (as a lock!), Deacon
Saxons - Kitchener, Garvey, Slater, Robson

Not to different to what we see in the current squads really just switch Botha for Garvey and promote Deacon to the EPS in the place of Clark - along with Lawes at 6, the Clark inclusion as a 'second-row' is one of the few issues I can really take against SL's selections.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah Hood..thats a mystery isnt it...

I'd have him in the EPS...but what ever happened during that half time in the Saxons game a few years back musnt have been pleasant...and must have involved Lancs.

Ive pushed his name for a while now....and i still think he has the potential to play at that level...theres only one way to find out...if he fails then hey fair do's.
But it says something when you hear Irish fans say they'll accept losing Corbs etc...but it would be a disaster if they lost Garvey!

But at the same time i do believe our second row options are improving at quite a pace.

I agree, and same with king carlos' comments. Would say though his carrying, for which I thought he really looked superb, does seem to have tailed off a bit this year. Seems to be hitting the line at less pace and more upright and making far fewer carries. But then he has been at 6 and getting through a LOT of defensive duties. Not hugely athletic or mobile but seems to never be far from the action and a big lump.

As you say, may not cut the mustard but i'd like to find out.

England should try Courtney Lawes on the wing. With his size, weight and power he could be England's Jonah Lomu.

gboycottnut wrote:England should try Courtney Lawes on the wing. With his size, weight and power he could be England's Jonah Lomu.

We already have our own Lomu......Matt Banahan

Oh yes Banahan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWdn8Adt7P8

wasps wrote:And yet we still won.
That means we can take a lot of positives from the experiments of Wood and Lawes.
Hopefully we've learnt that there are plenty of better options at 6.
And that while Wood can play 8, we're better with a more powerful player there.

Who is 2nd choice at 7 these days?
If Robshaw was to play 6, who would play 7?
Would it be Haskell? If so, we're no better off in terms of injury cover.

You won because of a bobbling loose ball,nothing more nothing less

Lawes is a nasty piece of work - his hit on Parra should have been a red card. No attempt to use arms or to tackle - just a shoulder charge

TJ wrote:Lawes is a nasty piece of work - his hit on Parra should have been a red card. No attempt to use arms or to tackle - just a shoulder charge

Get real man,a forwards job is to slap around the half backs.Still don't make him a good player thou.

within the laws. When you tackle you are supposed to use your arms. he did not. it was deliberate and cynical and should have been red according to the laws of the game

TJ wrote:within the laws. When you tackle you are supposed to use your arms. he did not. it was deliberate and cynical and should have been red according to the laws of the game

utter rubbish

TJ wrote:within the laws. When you tackle you are supposed to use your arms. he did not. it was deliberate and cynical and should have been red according to the laws of the game

Yep to the letter of the law and all that, but late hits is all part of the game, if in the 22 defending then maybe a penalty but around half way line just let it go man.

TJ wrote:Lawes is a nasty piece of work - his hit on Parra should have been a red card. No attempt to use arms or to tackle - just a shoulder charge

Are you blind by any chance?

Late hits, takles without arms are NOT part of the game. Lawes clearly did not use his arms in the tackle on Parra. Should have been red. Compare the defense of this thug to the opprobrium heaped on Healy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDvGF5O6mg

TJ you spend al lot of time writing offensive things about people and making hyperbolic statements regarding rules you dont even understand. Lawes was not carded, cited or banned for this high profile tackle. Why? Because its legal.

You seem intent on turning every article on here into some kind of slanging match, its getting dull now

Peter - merely pointing out ( in this case) some home truths, Lawes is a nasty piece of work who exceeds the laws frequently. Look at his record.

I do understand the laws. I dislike the hipocracy of some posters on here - comments like " late hits are part of the game" I dislike the way many posters defend thugs on their own teams and decry those on others.

I am not offensive about other posters nor about players - its the truth.

I hate to see players who cheat lauded. I hate to see players being injured by deliberate acts. Lawes could be a great player but his tendencey to hit late and illegally needs to be curbed.

Lawes (& Hartley) both had outstanding games against LI yesterday apparently.

Peter - I will also try to remember this - as others need to as well. I do not intend to turn every article into a slanging match.

http://xkcd.com/386/

Personally I won’t be happy til every English player is despised. That should coincide nicely with winning the next world cup.

Here’s some help.

Marler – deluded (dude, Eng are only the best in the NH)
Hartley – eats children
Cole – attempted to damage Healy’s foot, then got him banned
Parling – skinny legs
Launchbury – too young to be a test lock
Haskell – loves himself more than life itself
Wood – just too good (who does he think he is, Hill?)
Robshaw – is he even a flanker?
Care – habitual criminal and sex pest
Farrell – petulant
Barritt – damn foreigner
Manu – see above/strange accent
Brown – too slow
Goode – even his name is arrogant
Ashton - hurtful

You have to admit though, the English national team has more dislikeable personalities than any other nation...

Primarily: Tuilagi, Haskell, Lawes, Foden, Ashton

The rest are alright.

TJ

That hit is neither late nor without arms. There's a margin for error in late hits and he was clearly already in the process of making the tackle when Parra passed it. He also attempts to wrap his arms clearly but Parra bounces off him before he can.

Healy is completely irrelevant.

What's particularly to dislike personally about Tuilagi and Foden?

Foden has one of the real snappy looking wives.
Lucky basteraud.

http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/wag-week/2010-11-15/rugby-world-cup-wag-week-england-rugby-ace-ben-fodens-pop-star-missus-una-healy%E2%80%A8

IronMike wrote:You have to admit though, the English national team has more dislikeable personalities than any other nation...

Primarily: Tuilagi, Haskell, Lawes, Foden, Ashton

The rest are alright.

Tuilagi - because he runs thro' people and scores - and clearly enjoys it (his punching of Ashton obviously puts detractors in a dilemma as the act is bad but the victim good)
Haskell - because he thinks he's great (odd in a top sportsman?)
Lawes - because his tackling (when completed) actually hurts
Foden - has a babe and once said something about big/little brother relationship with Wales I think
Ashton - he scores tries (usually), has a facial resemblance to the satanic Hartley...and of course the Splash (only a subdued handshake would satisfy some)

Like I say, it's all a credit to the team - I mean who hates a loser?

[quote="IronMike"]You have to admit though, the English national team has more dislikeable personalities than any other nation...

Primarily: Tuilagi, Haskell, Lawes, Foden, Ashton

The rest are alright.[/quote]

a) I am assuming you dont know these guys beyond watching rugby and Tv interviews,so if you think you have any real idea of their personalities you are deluded.
b)Who cares as long as they deliver for the team.....

Really struck a nerve haven't I?

How they come across in interviews, and their demeanour on the pitch is all I'm basing judgements on, the ones I listed just come across as arrogant - mostly based on nothing (a good performance vs the All Blacks aside).

The spirit of Jim Telfer lives on.

Tuilagi interviewed:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/02/six-nations-england-manu-tuilagi

I think he likes his rugby. It would be fun to have a beer with him and Basteraud. Manu seems like a nice guy - good family And really - there's nothing wrong with jumping off a boat - who hasn't done that - they do it all the time in Samoa. (But I guess not in Cardiff Bay).

I can understand why the Welsh don't like Foden. When their rugby players go out with celebrity singers, they just get the chubby ones, and then get dumped.

Alex_Germany wrote:It would be fun to have a beer with him and Basteraud.

I heard about Basteraud being interviewed before the England game. The interviewer told him that Tuilagi would likely be playing. Basteraud put his head in his head in mock anguish and then came up smiling.

Seems like a guy who doesn't take himself too seriously and up for a laugh.

Would be a good guy (like Tuilagi) to have a pint with. Just don't leave any tables in his way

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

IronMike wrote:You have to admit though, the English national team has more dislikeable personalities than any other nation...

Primarily: Tuilagi, Haskell, Lawes, Foden, Ashton

The rest are alright.

Tuilagi - because he runs thro' people and scores - and clearly enjoys it (his punching of Ashton obviously puts detractors in a dilemma as the act is bad but the victim good)
Haskell - because he thinks he's great (odd in a top sportsman?)
Lawes - because his tackling (when completed) actually hurts
Foden - has a babe and once said something about big/little brother relationship with Wales I think
Ashton - he scores tries (usually), has a facial resemblance to the satanic Hartley...and of course the Splash (only a subdued handshake would satisfy some)

Like I say, it's all a credit to the team - I mean who hates a loser?

Fair enough really. I say I don't like Halfpenny because I find it ridiculous that a full-back would wear a scrum hat, but it's probably more to do with the fact that he's a really good player who plays for a team that isn't my own.

Halfpenny also keeps on getting the MOTM award. It's high time he let someone else have it. Just no one else in the Welsh team seems to want it.

Love it...everyone hates England again cos we're winning...

I couldnt care less what you all think....

If England win the world cup...aside from the joy of that achievement...i would love it just to see the bitterness from every other nation....how i will laugh....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Love it...everyone hates England again cos we're winning...

I couldnt care less what you all think....

If England win the world cup...aside from the joy of that achievement...i would love it just to see the bitterness from every other nation....how i will laugh....

Just wait until we lose a game after winning the RWC - Can you imagine how the trolls will react? can you imagine the keyboard cleaning bills ...

It wont matter than LIW...the main job would have been done.

Its just shame to see comments like " Lawes is a nasty piece of work"...eh?? Cant work it out...

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Love it...everyone hates England again cos we're winning...

I couldnt care less what you all think....

If England win the world cup...aside from the joy of that achievement...i would love it just to see the bitterness from every other nation....how i will laugh....

Just wait until we lose a game after winning the RWC - Can you imagine how the trolls will react? can you imagine the keyboard cleaning bills ...

It really is pathetic. Listing the English players that are 'idiots' because of the way they come across in the interviews and in the media eye.

No mention of Wales' Phillips nights out in Cardiff, Bishop battering that guy on a night out, Andy Powell's numerous indiscretions, AWJ's consistent petulence, Davies getting into a fight on a night out. No no, it's just the English players that are arrogant idiots.

Honestly, any chance to have a bash at England, and all the keyboard warriors are out in force.

To try to put a real point of view across on Laws

I do not think he deliberately goes out to shoulder charge etc, but I do think he has a very poor tackle technique, which was shown two games ago when he dived through the air to try and tackle a knee with his head

Think this will be just about my first post on here, but my twopenneth on Lawes is he just needs to play a lot more rugby.
Complete stop and start career so far mainly due to injury niggles, I think he's only played maybe 60 games for Northampton and 14 for England, and in various positions. Thats not a lot lof games for a 24 year old international and he needs more game time to become the finished article, which as yet he is nowhere near to being but all the tools are there for him to have a fantastic career.

I rate Lawes highly and think he's an excellent lock. Perhaps slightly overhyped when he first broke through (every nation is guilty of that), but he's become a powerful international lock, and I still have him down as a strong candidate to tour with the Lions.

Regarding his performance against France, he was out of position. Simple as that. I think most sensible rugby followers can agree that Nathan Hines is an outstanding lock forward, but he used to be terrible at 6 for Scotland, constantly finding himself in positions he was unfamiliar with and struggling (thanks for that Andy Robinson).

There are some valid points about his tackling technique, he does tend to go for the most physically damaging tackle possible, rather than necessarily the most effective one. I'm sure with experience that will change. Still, he is capable of also making game changing tackles, very much like Jason White used to do with Scotland, and that sort of abrasive and powerful player is a great asset.

I rate him highly, and have seen absolutely nothing to question his attitude or personality, or make a determination that he's "unlikeable".

Still a lot of growing up to do on these boards.

I do remember when Courtney Lawes first burst onto the international scene, some people were saying that he had the potential to become the next John Eales of World Rugby!

Riskysports wrote:To try to put a real point of view across on Laws

I do not think he deliberately goes out to shoulder charge etc, but I do think he has a very poor tackle technique, which was shown two games ago when he dived through the air to try and tackle a knee with his head

Well he is a chopper, goes very low and when you are 75ft tall that can't be easy, so yes he gets it wrong often. He is also of the Moody tackling style...but yes there are also times when he goes in tackle out and gets in a mess....whtehr thisis deliberate dirty play or youthful enthusiasm (like that annoying dog who chases your ball and punctures it) is debatable

gboycottnut wrote:I do remember when Courtney Lawes first burst onto the international scene, some people were saying that he had the potential to become the next John Eales of World Rugby!

What's actually wrong with that? Lawes has the physical aspect to his game to become a very good international lock indeed. Of course people get carried away when presented by such a talent at such a young age, ambitious comparisons are inevitable. They're hardly going to say that he has the potential to be the next Brent Cockbain!!

The key is the word "potential". People spot a big talent and then they look for a great player or similar stature in the same position and make comparisons. Nothing to get your knickers in a twist over.

Come on FES, knicker twisting is what this forum is all about! Love a good knicker twist me...

GeordieFalcon wrote:It wont matter than LIW...the main job would have been done.

Its just shame to see comments like " Lawes is a nasty piece of work"...eh?? Cant work it out...

Can't work it out? Look at his disciplinary record and his quotes.

He could still develop in a great player - he has the potential but he has to play within the laws. He could take Martin Johnson as a role model. For the early part of his career he was a a gimme to give away penalties as he could be provoked into loosing his temper and this cost his team on occasion. Johnson realised this was a weakness and eliminated it from his game and for the latter part of his career became a truely outstanding player having eliminated this weakness from his game.

TJ wrote:He could take Martin Johnson as a role model. For the early part of his career he was a a gimme to give away penalties as he could be provoked into loosing his temper and this cost his team on occasion. Johnson realised this was a weakness and eliminated it from his game and for the latter part of his career became a truely outstanding player having eliminated this weakness from his game.

Johnson was indeed a great player, but I'm not sure I'd use him as role model from a disciplinary perspective, even towards the end of his career.

I wouldn't say Lawes had disciplinary issues either tbh

FES - I thought it was a significant change in him the last couple of years. He really seemed to stop being such a penalty machine and loosing his temper on the field. That took him IMO from a good player to a great one as he eliminated that weakness from his game

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't say Lawes had disciplinary issues either tbh

Has he not had more than his share of yellow cards? Kneeing ledesma in the head in the WC for example? My impression is that this is a weakness in his game and that he is too keen to put in the big hit. Has had yellows for chouldrer charges in the past as well

Lawes is a decent player TJ but come on he's no Dan Lydiate is he

TJ wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't say Lawes had disciplinary issues either tbh

Has he not had more than his share of yellow cards? Kneeing ledesma in the head in the WC for example? My impression is that this is a weakness in his game and that he is too keen to put in the big hit. Has had yellows for chouldrer charges in the past as well

A few yellow cards are hardly an issue, Lawes isn't any dirtier that most forwards who get in the thick of the action. This is rugby we're talking about not volleyball you know.