Lancaster might drop Ashton

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/25/chris-ashton-england-six-nations


All problems are relative when you sit unbeaten on top of the Six Nations championship table with an opportunity to win a first grand slam since 2003. England have duly confirmed a settled 31-man training squad for next week's Italy fixture, but there is still room for improvement in certain areas. Chris Ashton's modest form, for example, has yet to cost his country dear but is an increasing issue for his coaches.

All players at all levels have the occasional off-day but Wesley Fofana's try for France on Saturday concentrated attention on Ashton's less-than-watertight defence. The Saracens wing was not the sole culprit but opposing teams are starting to sniff a technical weakness. Against Wales' big wings, George North and Alex Cuthbert, it could prove a serious headache.

Ashton is as frustrated as anybody judging by the petulant way in which he threw the ball at Benjamin Fall in the closing moments of England's 23-13 victory. He has had some wonderful days in a white jersey, with 17 tries in 32 Tests to prove it, but that old swagger is only fleetingly apparent. He ran with the ball on nine occasions against the French and made a grand total of 30 metres; against Scotland he carried it 12 times and made 19 metres.

He scored a good try in those 19 metres.It's not how many it's what you too with them.

Given the players released back to their club today it looks unlikely he'll be dropped, Ashton & Brown are the only 'wingers' retained to train this week. It's been suggested Tuilagi could start on the wing, but the way Lancaster talked about that I very much doubt it.

Would much rather see Monye in for Ashton.

Would rather see Ashton in than Strettle though.

Tuilagi would do a great job on the wing. Then you can get Twelvetrees involved at centre...!

Strettle and Monye have both had enough chances and simply are not cut for test rugby.

Ashton in truth has only been seen in a defensive capacity... he hasn't had much to work with in the last couple of games.

Against Italy we should see that change however and I'd back him to get a couple of tries. Lancaster knows in full form with his chest out he's one of ENG best weapons.... and they will need it all to beat Wales at the MS.

maestegmafia wrote:Tuilagi would do a great job on the wing. Then you can get Twelvetrees involved at centre...!

Or just do the right thing by playing 12. 36 13. Manu and replace Ashton with an actual winger.

Ashton has a good recording of scoring against Italy and Wales and I expect this to continue.

Let's give him until the end of the championship. I think he'll be back in the tries and confident by them.

He might even end up the tournament's leading scorer.

This would seriously hamper his Lions prospects, if indeed he's on the radar

Ashton dropped....could happen, but he'd most likely be replaced by Strettle - who isnt exactly a defensive power house either.

Strettle has been released to Sarries for the weekend so unlikely to be starting against Italy. If Ashton is to be dropped it looks most likely it would be for someone outside the training squad - so Monye perhaps or maybe even Wade

Cheers LT - yes, just read that on another post.
SL will probably keep Ashton on board anyway.

He should be dropped although I don't think he will.

If he was to score a abrace against Italy what would that actually show us? We all knwo he has the skills, it's his mindst that's an issue and I don't think it's going to be fixed in a week or two

yappysnap wrote:He should be dropped although I don't think he will.

If he was to score a abrace against Italy what would that actually show us? We all knwo he has the skills, it's his mindst that's an issue and I don't think it's going to be fixed in a week or two

That typo was is meant to be mindset (dull) or minds (more interesting and would explain a lot)

Ashton has lots of pace and is good at linking up with other players and being in the right place at the right time. With ball in hand he isnt great at finding support or making great decisions unless a gap opens up he usually has the gas to find the try line.

His defense and kicking is poor as is his decision making. He is petulant and attracts too much attention with his try celebrations. A better player would show more humility and focus on their game and what they can offer their team. Without speed he would be very very average.

SL can't pick Wade or Monye as both are outside the EPS, and he could only bring them in if one of his other wingers or full backs was injured. But I would agree that Ashton is close to reaching his best before date. Awesome in his first few games, and has been living on reputation since then.

tazfalklands wrote:SL can't pick Wade or Monye as both are outside the EPS, and he could only bring them in if one of his other wingers or full backs was injured. But I would agree that Ashton is close to reaching his best before date. Awesome in his first few games, and has been living on reputation since then.

Incorrect. He can select them for the test (and have them for training from the Sunday before). What he cannot do is call them up for training this week (an official off week) unless they are replacing an injured player.

If Ashton is picked then I don't care particularly if he doesn't score in the next couple of games. We know that he can run great lines and score tries (especially if Flood is on the pitch!).

What I do want to see is some proper physicality and big tackles from him. Rugby League boys are meant to be good in defence aren't they? SL should tell him to stop flapping at people and get his shoulder contacting in solid wrap around tackles.

screamingaddabs wrote:If Ashton is picked then I don't care particularly if he doesn't score in the next couple of games. We know that he can run great lines and score tries (especially if Flood is on the pitch!).

What I do want to see is some proper physicality and big tackles from him. Rugby League boys are meant to be good in defence aren't they? SL should tell him to stop flapping at people and get his shoulder contacting in solid wrap around tackles.

Agree with you re Flood. A lot of his tries are scored from flat passes from Flood as Ashton comes off his wing to break the line. In particular his four v Italy a couple of years ago. England's tactics are a little different with SL. A lot of bash bash bash, taking it into contact and recycling, picking off penalties and wearing defenses down rather than bringing wingers into play.

I mentioned this on another site, but does anyone else think Lancaster's tactics remind you of Ireland in the '09 6 Nations? Not flashy in any way but very controlled and doing the basics right.

Not saying there's anything wrong with the tactics, but it just reminds me of how Kidney took Ireland from the potential to win, to actually getting it...

Interesting points raised.

Floods distribution might enable a more fluid back line than Farrell can manipulate.

Interesting how in other threads where Ashton's non selection is being discussed it is his apparent defensive inapditude rather than occasional try scoring prowess.

fa0019 wrote:Strettle and Monye have both had enough chances and simply are not cut for test rugby.

Ashton in truth has only been seen in a defensive capacity... he hasn't had much to work with in the last couple of games.

Against Italy we should see that change however and I'd back him to get a couple of tries. Lancaster knows in full form with his chest out he's one of ENG best weapons.... and they will need it all to beat Wales at the MS.

The bold bit in particular is hitting the nail on the head.

Form goes up and down. Strettle mk1 looked made for international rugby, same for Monye, though for different reasons. Strettle never looked as threatening since injuries took their toll. Monye had pace to burn and plenty of power- THAT tackle on Thom Evans probably put Evans out of the Lions and Monye in. And Monye did well with the lions - a couple of (admitidly crucial) fumbles apart. He is an exceptional tackler for a wing. But the current version without the top pace isnt anything like as threatening

maestegmafia wrote:Interesting points raised.

Floods distribution might enable a more fluid back line than Farrell can manipulate.

Interesting how in other threads where Ashton's non selection is being discussed it is his apparent defensive inapditude rather than occasional try scoring prowess.

because we can all see that the way England are playing is not creating chances for him, but his defensive abilities are being exposed.
When they play a more open game and creative midfield the backs create more tries and he scores more often. The only games hes scored in under Lancaster were the NZ and Scotland ones, when Farrell was playing flatter and then with 36 in midfield.

England play to tire and pressure the opposition keeping the scoreboard ticking over by winning the penalty battle and kicking the goals. As the structured game inevitably breaks down they have the option of bringing on more flair (36, Flood) to the midfield and taking advantage of additional space for the wide backs.

There seems increasingly little point to starting a winger whos only effective when the sides playing less conservatively. But for the Italy game they will probably look to open up more. That doesnt answer the question about regarding what should happen when (if) they go back into their shells against Wales




Monye and Wade...summer tour yes, now...not a chance (same re: Foden for Brown/Goode)

Personally I've never been a huge fan of Ashton but can see his positives. He's very strong with ball in hand, runs good lines and has pace to burn, unfortunately in recent times he's been getting/looking for the ball less and as such has become pretty ineffective.

The reason I haven't been huge fan of him has always been his now even more exposed defence. The 'tackle' attempt that stands out for me was one on Matt Smith in a Tigers vs Saints game a season ago where Smith basically rode Ashton's tickling for 15m to the line.

If we're getting the ball to the wings less I'd love to see a winger who could do as much as possible with the ball he gets and on the counter. As such I'd like to see Wade or, call me a romantic, JSD if he can string some games together. Ashton is a great finisher but doesn't really create tries from nothing as those two can.

11.Foden (Pace) 14.Wade/JSD 15.Brown would be my ideal back 3 at the moment. However with Goode performing well in Dublin I can cope with seeing him remain at 15 for now.

England's current back 3 lacks attacking threat as it is, so removing the only genuinely threatening player from it would seem slightly dull (though given some of the selections made previously it wouldn't be a surprise). We all know Ashton is a confidence player, so dropping him would be counter productive, especially against Italy.

I think Foden needs to be involved. Leaving him out is a travesty considering his abilities and performances over the last few years. Goode and Brown are solid enough but not in the same class as Foden. In the short term Lancaster needs to pick 1 of these two at fullback and play Foden at 11, which would give the backline a far more attacking edge. Which one he selects depends on the centres - if Twelvetrees is involved then the playmaking skills of Goode are less important and I would choose Brown for his superior physicality and defence. If the centre combo is Barritt/Tuilagi (please god not again!) then Brown should be the fullback to step aside. Persevering with both Brown and Goode is another example of Lancasters irritating loyalty and lack of ruthlessness.

If we were choosing from scratch then players such as JSD (won't ever happen but would love it to, and currently injured anyway), Wade, May and Biggs should come into the frame, but this is unlikely during this championship.

I heard some England players that are possibly not playing vs Italy weren't released due to RFU commitments with sponsors this week.

https://youtu.be/zB5eu0EwK34

Of course the ad run by Brains straight after last seasons GS was not shot in advance (Nor Ireland's a couple of years earlier).

There were two mistakes with tha vid - and making it was not one of them.

England made the mistake in not winning in Dublin - though that was down to Ireland being very good.
Nike made the biggest mistake. they insisted on shooting the film, they should have deleted it and removed all trace.

But these kinds of things are done all the time. Promotional videos, adverts, t-shirts, etc. are always made in advance celebrating both potential winners of the Super Bowl each year as soon as the finalists are known. Same in Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey, Champions League, and most major competitions around the world. The England one simply leaked out. No biggie.

Lancaster might drop Ashton

... Off a tall building please!

GLove39 wrote:Lancaster might drop Ashton

... Off a tall building please!

Now Now.

Lucky for the Welsh they lost the first game so never had to go to the effort of making one this year.

One of Englands brightest stars, Ben Youngs, on Ashton for the Telegraph.

Young did not just need the evidence of Tuesday’s full-scale game of rugby league at England training to justify his assertion that Ashton is on top of his game although he did emphasise that the former Wigan player had been “very good” during a practice session which saw backs coach Andy Farrell also join in.

“Chris has set a benchmark for wingers in terms of their link play and getting on the end of tries,” said Youngs who was the trigger for Ashton’s most famous score, the length-of-the-field effort against Australia at Twickenham three years ago. “He has educated our wingers so they can do the same thing. There is a reason why he is always on the end of tries and that is because of the work he does. He has also got a sixth sense for where the ball is going to be.

“For me as a scrum-half it is great to know that he is going to be there or thereabouts, somewhere around you poaching. He is so busy and his work-rate within the game is phenomenal.

“If you were playing against England, one of the people you would have a constant eye out for is Chris. Once you get a reputation for making breaks or scoring tries you become a marked man. I don’t think it will be long before you see another 60 metre try, which is his trademark. His reading is there but sometimes the ball just doesn’t get to you or it is one pass short. In training he has been doing really well.”

I have defended Ashton many times...but have also been hugely critical of his defence and his "bottle" at times.

How ever whilst the Fofana try again highlighted his woeful ability defensively...he should not have been forced to make it as Lawes should have made the tackle first...he is the one who should be firstly held responsible.

"Ashton might be dropped!" This is music to my ears. Surely we can find a winger who can score and defend SOMEWHERE in England? Its not as if we are short of players in this country is it.

The France game was just another inept display by Ashton amongst many. His flapping arms are pathetic to watch.

My real fear is that he will score against a very ordinary Italy next weekend and everyone will forget what an utter liability he is.

On The Rugby Club last night, Dewi Morris suggested that Ashton plays better when Flood is on the pitch, coming inside, looking for work and taking the crash ball. He suggested that Ashton isn't as effective as a combination with Farrell, which is criminal if you think about it, as the two are now team mates...

GunsGerms wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:If Ashton is picked then I don't care particularly if he doesn't score in the next couple of games. We know that he can run great lines and score tries (especially if Flood is on the pitch!).

What I do want to see is some proper physicality and big tackles from him. Rugby League boys are meant to be good in defence aren't they? SL should tell him to stop flapping at people and get his shoulder contacting in solid wrap around tackles.

Agree with you re Flood. A lot of his tries are scored from flat passes from Flood as Ashton comes off his wing to break the line. In particular his four v Italy a couple of years ago. England's tactics are a little different with SL. A lot of bash bash bash, taking it into contact and recycling, picking off penalties and wearing defenses down rather than bringing wingers into play.

Sorry, you are getting confused with Wales, except the recycling bit.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:If Ashton is picked then I don't care particularly if he doesn't score in the next couple of games. We know that he can run great lines and score tries (especially if Flood is on the pitch!).

What I do want to see is some proper physicality and big tackles from him. Rugby League boys are meant to be good in defence aren't they? SL should tell him to stop flapping at people and get his shoulder contacting in solid wrap around tackles.

Agree with you re Flood. A lot of his tries are scored from flat passes from Flood as Ashton comes off his wing to break the line. In particular his four v Italy a couple of years ago. England's tactics are a little different with SL. A lot of bash bash bash, taking it into contact and recycling, picking off penalties and wearing defenses down rather than bringing wingers into play.

Sorry, you are getting confused with Wales, except the recycling bit.

How would you describe England's tactics?

If I were the Italy or Welsh coach I'd target Ashton every time. He's just an open gateway to the try line.

majesticimperialman wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Lancaster might drop Ashton

... Off a tall building please!

Now Now.

I can't decide whether you think he should calm down or hurry up!

Chris 'turnstile' Ashton, clicks in the visiting team.
Yeah, ok boss I count 15.

Ashton, Lawes and Hartley are a liability to the England team all three are over rated England must have better players but are still winning so far.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Lucky for the Welsh they lost the first game so never had to go to the effort of making one this year.

That is true, Wales should be good at it they have had enough experience.

Big wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Lancaster might drop Ashton

... Off a tall building please!

Now Now.

I can't decide whether you think he should calm down or hurry up!

Yes my immediate thought was that he was baying for Ashton to be pushed...! Though I thought made was a huge fan.

glamorganalun wrote:Ashton, Lawes and Hartley are a liability to the England team all three are over rated England must have better players but are still winning so far.

I really cant accept that they are "liabilities"

Lawes is a crackin second row...who will prove his ability if he can finally avoid his injury issues..

Ashton has been exposed a few times defensively..but offensivly he is as effective as Cuthbert, North, Visser etc...all the celtic wingers being bigged up. It doesnt help him that the current style isnt really playing to his strengths.

Hartley is a quality hooker who has a bad name and thus is just a target for incorrect abuse. He's a quality hooker, great at the breakdown, good in the set pieces.

All three seem so controversial...Ashton for his big mouth, splash and less tackle than a eunuch, Lawes for his Moody esque tackling and failure to realise his potential and Hartley for his attitude. All 3 are quality players at their best but seem to fluctuate in form. I think certainly Ashton would benefit from a rest.

YES please, please drop him. The guy is useless. In a tight match England effectively have only 14 players on their side. Ashton contributes zip all. He can't tackle, defend positionally, kick, take high balls - NOTHING! except run fast in a straight line if given the ball in space. Ditch him quick.

Keep him, diolch !

Wales will be begging SL to keep him but he will be dropped

I thought he made his tackles today and wasnt that bad. Nobody wanted to pass to him though