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Ireland owe ROG

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Post by Morgannwg Mon 04 Mar 2013, 8:36 pm

The O'Gara debate has recently come to my attention more-so than ever. On facebook there is a 'Rugby Banter page' and the creators are quite clearly Irish. It's a fun page full of international fans and lighthearted banter. However this evening the banter has been put to one side so the administrators could vent their frustrations about the treatment of Ronan O'Gara.

ROG not included in the Irish squad for France. Probably signals imminent retirement. That botched kick against Scotland wasn't the way for him to go, kind of sad.

Appalling act by Kidney.. He's made a few questionable choices in his time as Irish manager! I've a feeling ROG would have called time on his glittering career anyway at the end of this season. He should have been afforded that opportunity by Kidney! I know there will be many delighted to see the back of him but despite what any of you say about O Gara he owes Irish Rugby nothing.. There's a lot of Irish players with a triple crown medal in their arse pockets with no small thanks to ROG! If this is indeed the end ROG you've served us well!!

To an extent I agree. This was poor management by Ireland head coach Kidney. Should ROG have been picked in any of Irelands match day squads for this years 6 Nations? Probably not. But would ROG ever say no to a call-up for his country? His experience around guys like Madigan and Jackson would be useful, so I agree with him in the overall squad. He's been criticised a lot lately for Ireland and Munster. I think he's got another good year with the Provincial set-up at least before he calls it a day for good. Munster aren't playing well under Penney and not only O'Gara should be held accountable. This is likely his final season with the Ireland national team though.

As the quote says and like we all know, a lot of Irishmen have 6 Nations, domestic and european medals and it is largely down to O'Gara. Of course he is no one-man team but you can't deny that without his calmness, intelligence and pinpoint accuracy none of this would have been achieved. ROG doesn't owe Ireland, Ireland owe ROG. Should he get one final game so he can bow out the way he would want to? IMO Yes; It should be a home game, (against France? Perhaps that's another debate in itself) outside the 6 Nations if needs be against decent opposition at Lansdowne Road (Aviva Stadium). Let him come on the pitch in the latter half to a standing ovation and earn his final cap hopefully rounded off with a win. Allow him to walk off the pitch to thunderous applause and allow Ireland to show him the gratitude for his years of service that he deserves.
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Post by Notch Mon 04 Mar 2013, 8:46 pm

I have to disagree completely.

Truth is, you don't owe any individual anything. It's about the team and it's about the shirt. The only obligation the coach has is to fill the shirts with the best players.

O'Gara is a legend of Irish rugby. One final cap or not, that doesn't change. He joins the pantheon of our best outhalves; Jackie Kyle, Tony Ward, Ollie Campbell, Eric Elwood, David Humphreys, Ronan O'Gara. All great outhalves, all deserving of great respect for their achievements. And all with nothing more to offer the team they served so well for so long.

As they say in Munster, you're just minding the jersey for the next guy. Sentiment is for the after dinner speeches and the newspaper editorials, not selection for the national side. And it's high time we learned that in Ireland.
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Post by Morgannwg Mon 04 Mar 2013, 8:54 pm

Fair enough. I thought, with such a good fly-half coming into Irelands apparent golden generation and being so fundamental to the teams achievements for around a decade that he deserved to go out with class. It would be a shame for it to end like this. It's kinda like Wales giving both the Williams' their final show in the jersey they loved.
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Post by NeilyBroon Mon 04 Mar 2013, 8:57 pm

It reminds me a little of how Dan Parks left Scotland.

Granted ROG definitely is a better player than Parks but the main difference is that Parks was persuaded out of retirement when there were other options, although the same could be said for ROG being picked over Madigan. Its a shame but I'm glad he had his brainfart against Scotland!

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Post by red_stag Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:00 pm

There's a right and a wrong way of doing things.

This has been handled dreadfully by Kidney. Against Wales and England he was 2nd choice. Against Scotland he was 3rd choice leapfrogged by an uncapped player. Against France he is 4th choice leapfrogged by another uncapped player.

If Kidney had just not picked ROG at all there would be no big issue. Equally if Kidney waited another two games there would be no big issue.

However Kidney has managed to alienate a large group of fans (possibly a few players?) by making these type of U-Turns in the middle of a championship.

Would have been better if he simply made this call from the start.

Ireland don't owe another another game. But they owed him better than raising false hope.

Same with that Cave deserved better last year when Kidney backpedalled in a similar manner.

There appears to be no faith in the man behind his decisions.
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Post by Notch Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:02 pm

See, that is what I DON'T like.

Every time I see Martyn Williams on BBC and it says '100 caps for Wales' I mentally abbreviate it to 99. Because the last cap, he didn't earn. It was a run-out off the bench in a meaningless Barbarians game just so he could make it a round 100. I mean, most nations don't even give out caps for Barbarians games.

The coach selected him for the wrong reasons. And it means less than if he reached 100 on his own merits. I'm not saying it devalues the jersey- or his legacy as a player. He was a legend and he earnt 90+ caps by being a legendary player. The last few he earned by being a guy who used to be a legendary player. And they don't mean as much as a result.

I feel like we've already given ROG more caps than he legitimately earned through his abilities in the hope he would come good. It's sentiment, same thing we did with Hayes. I believe our society should be more caring, more driven by values of fairness and equality, but sport? Sport should be cut throat and ultra-competitive. Because thats what it is. The ultimate meritocracy, survival of the fittest. Todays heroes are tomorrows pundits.
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Post by SecretFly Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:09 pm

Maybe Dramatic Licence is going overboard on the entire topic.

A great player (on his own record he is undoubtedly one of the great flyhalves of Europe - voted ERC European player of the first 15 years of European Club competition)

He knows he has many records to be proud of...he knows that real rugby followers know what he has been to this Nation and what his achievements have been, and will state so openly in the years to come.

The present is a pragmatic world of trying to inject some movement into a stuttering Ireland. The present is pragmatic decisions made in the interests of giving the Irish team the best chance to extricate themselves out of the number of holes they've developed for themselves in the last number of years. There is nothing personal in the view that O'Gara has to step aside to allow new flyhalves the experience to improve and take Ireland into this new decade.

There is no shame in stating so. It's not hounding an individual, it's not abuse, it's not disresepct. It's saying the time for change in that role is now very apparent. We have to try and find an alternative to what was a great positional role for Ireland in the guise of a great player called Ronan O'Gara.

Ronan isn't innocent. He remembers the fallout when he was taking over from Humphreys. He knows when people were saying the same thing about Humphreys - that he was being treated unfairly. All Ronan was concerned about at the time was that he was the guy waiting in the wings. He was the guy ready, willing and able to take over. The politics was for others.

That's all that's happening now. Ireland are underperforming. Freshness is needed in certain departments and O'Gara's position is one of them. We can't stand still because we're afraid to tell a player who has been so central to Ireland that his moment has come, that his time is ended/ending.

Was Scotland his last game? I wouldn't genuinely think so. But yet again, the side show of player selection becomes the debating point in Ireland. The real issue is that a coaching team have been working on problem Ireland now for three or four years. They're not making progress. They're running blind from one crisis to the next. They are the problem. Players are just the symptoms.


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Post by Cyril Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:16 pm

Irish rugby can be thankful for having ROG, but they don't owe him games when he's not the best pick (either first choice, back-up or whatever).

To do that would be an insult not only to ROG, but also the rivals for the spot and any up-and-coming players.

It's straightforward for me, you don't offer a player a cheap cap for any reason, whether it's to reach a milestone or to have some kind of 'homecoming' celebration. It cheapens the whole thing.

Acknowledge his dedication and part in Ireland and Munster's achievements but don't let sentimentalism enter into it.

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Post by RuggerBoy Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:28 pm

Notch, it is not often I find myself actually applauding a post on this forum but I have done this evening - your post.

As a Welshman, I have always had this nagging doubt that Martyn Williams was a 99 cap, not a 100 cap player. No amount of sentiment could shake the doubt that he in fact didn't deserve that final cap and it wasn't until reading your final paragraph that made me realise why. He did nothing to earn it.

For me, you articulated perfectly why nothing should be a given in sport, any sport, it must always be earned. ROG has earned our respect but it is only sentiment that would warrant him a last hurrah!

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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:32 pm

Notch wrote:See, that is what I DON'T like.

Every time I see Martyn Williams on BBC and it says '100 caps for Wales' I mentally abbreviate it to 99. Because the last cap, he didn't earn. It was a run-out off the bench in a meaningless Barbarians game just so he could make it a round 100. I mean, most nations don't even give out caps for Barbarians games.

The coach selected him for the wrong reasons. And it means less than if he reached 100 on his own merits. I'm not saying it devalues the jersey- or his legacy as a player. He was a legend and he earnt 90+ caps by being a legendary player. The last few he earned by being a guy who used to be a legendary player. And they don't mean as much as a result.

I feel like we've already given ROG more caps than he legitimately earned through his abilities in the hope he would come good. It's sentiment, same thing we did with Hayes. I believe our society should be more caring, more driven by values of fairness and equality, but sport? Sport should be cut throat and ultra-competitive. Because thats what it is. The ultimate meritocracy, survival of the fittest. Todays heroes are tomorrows pundits.

So you didn't approve of David Humphreys getting to captain an Irish Tour to Japan before he retired? Two caps he didn''t earn then?


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Post by Morgannwg Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:33 pm

Was there a similar circumstance with Carlos Spencer? Except his last show was for the NZ Maori against the Lions. McCalister was the up and coming fly-half then.
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Post by nathan Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:37 pm

I think ROG would be the first to say he shouldn't play if he's not the best player for the job. Unfortunately professional sport can be tough on players sometimes, but there are far more good memories than bad ones and it's the former he'll be remembered by.

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Post by Notch Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:45 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:See, that is what I DON'T like.

Every time I see Martyn Williams on BBC and it says '100 caps for Wales' I mentally abbreviate it to 99. Because the last cap, he didn't earn. It was a run-out off the bench in a meaningless Barbarians game just so he could make it a round 100. I mean, most nations don't even give out caps for Barbarians games.

The coach selected him for the wrong reasons. And it means less than if he reached 100 on his own merits. I'm not saying it devalues the jersey- or his legacy as a player. He was a legend and he earnt 90+ caps by being a legendary player. The last few he earned by being a guy who used to be a legendary player. And they don't mean as much as a result.

I feel like we've already given ROG more caps than he legitimately earned through his abilities in the hope he would come good. It's sentiment, same thing we did with Hayes. I believe our society should be more caring, more driven by values of fairness and equality, but sport? Sport should be cut throat and ultra-competitive. Because thats what it is. The ultimate meritocracy, survival of the fittest. Todays heroes are tomorrows pundits.

So you didn't approve of David Humphreys getting to captain an Irish Tour to Japan before he retired? Two caps he didn''t earn then?

FFS boy, this isn't about provincial rivalries. Not everything should be viewed through that parochial lens. Get that through your head!

I didn't pay much attention to that tour, but I feel he was the second best outhalf available until he retired. I never felt Humphreys was getting picked on sentiment, one of his last games for Ulster was as good as I saw him play. Humphreys was saved from O'Garas fate of decline to the point of obsolescence by injury. Thats what necessitated his retirement from Ulster. He was lucky the decision was made for him, but he went out as near to the top of of his game as he could.

He did get his farewell game though, for Ulster. He was barely fit to play and he left the field after about 20 minutes. It was our last game of the season and it was a dead rubber. It was a nice occassion, a chance to say goodbye to a true Ulster legend. I'd say ROG will get similar when he comes to play his last game for Munster, and he deserves it. He truly deserves that reception from the Thomond Park crowd. If his last season ends with a Final though, well. Keatley would be the better choice. If it's an important game no room for sentiment.

In the test arena, there are no dead rubbers. And there should be no farewell bows. We get 10 games a year or thereabouts and every minute of test rugby counts. Now the championship is gone, this is about building for the RWC.
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Post by profitius Mon 04 Mar 2013, 9:59 pm

I'm a ROG fan and Munster fan but I have to say anyone who thinks its a disgrace that he got dropped have not got the slightest clue about rugby. ROG have been aweful for years now. He was on a downward slope since well before the 2011 world cup and its just now that the media and Irish management have copped on.
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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:15 pm

Notch wrote:FFS boy, this isn't about provincial rivalries. Not everything should be viewed through that parochial lens. Get that through your head!

I didn't pay much attention to that tour, but I feel he was the second best outhalf available until he retired.

He might possibly have been - but a possible backup for Ireland was sitting on the bench (Jeremy Staunton) who wasn't going to improve there. He would have been well up to Japan.

Humphreys last cap for Ireland was against Romania in Lansdowne Road. Ireland won 43-12. An ideal game to have had Paddy Wallace or Staunton involved in.

If you are going to criticise Martyn Williams for getting 1 cheap cap, criticise Humphreys for getting at least 3 of them.

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Post by red_stag Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:21 pm

profitius wrote:I'm a ROG fan and Munster fan but I have to say anyone who thinks its a disgrace that he got dropped have not got the slightest clue about rugby. ROG have been aweful for years now. He was on a downward slope since well before the 2011 world cup and its just now that the media and Irish management have copped on.

I really REALLY hope that he no longer starts Heineken Cup games for Munster.
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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:24 pm

profitius wrote:I'm a ROG fan and Munster fan but I have to say anyone who thinks its a disgrace that he got dropped have not got the slightest clue about rugby. ROG have been aweful for years now. He was on a downward slope since well before the 2011 world cup and its just now that the media and Irish management have copped on.

I think a lot of people are using it as a stick to beat Kidney with. Most Munster fans are well aware that Kidney would be a strong advocate over the years that no player gets to own the jersey - and the best example of that would be Anthony Foley being dropped out of the 23 for the Heineken Cup final, and his last game for Munster being down in Musgrave Park with no fanfare.



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Post by Notch Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:30 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:FFS boy, this isn't about provincial rivalries. Not everything should be viewed through that parochial lens. Get that through your head!

I didn't pay much attention to that tour, but I feel he was the second best outhalf available until he retired.

He might possibly have been - but a possible backup for Ireland was sitting on the bench (Jeremy Staunton) who wasn't going to improve there. He would have been well up to Japan.

Humphreys last cap for Ireland was against Romania in Lansdowne Road. Ireland won 43-12. An ideal game to have had Paddy Wallace or Staunton involved in.

If you are going to criticise Martyn Williams for getting 1 cheap cap, criticise Humphreys for getting at least 3 of them.


Hold on, why do you think I criticised Martyn Williams? Do you think I've criticised O'Gara too? Criticising the selection of a player is NOT the same thing.

Plus your Humphreys argument is irrelevant. He was picked for those games because he was second behind ROG. They still wanted him to play on, right up until the 2007 RWC. He chose to retire early. If I felt Humphreys was given a cap for the sake of giving him a cap I'd say so but he retired before he needed to be pushed. He retired long before he was past his best at international level and still able to play a big part for his province.

You're just trolling and it's tiresome for everyone but you. I wish you'd grow up Rolling Eyes
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Post by red_stag Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:37 pm

Notch it takes two to make an argument. If you don't engage with SinEs posts he wont annoy you.

Simply tick the ignore box instead of getting worked up.
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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:39 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:FFS boy, this isn't about provincial rivalries. Not everything should be viewed through that parochial lens. Get that through your head!

I didn't pay much attention to that tour, but I feel he was the second best outhalf available until he retired.

He might possibly have been - but a possible backup for Ireland was sitting on the bench (Jeremy Staunton) who wasn't going to improve there. He would have been well up to Japan.

Humphreys last cap for Ireland was against Romania in Lansdowne Road. Ireland won 43-12. An ideal game to have had Paddy Wallace or Staunton involved in.

If you are going to criticise Martyn Williams for getting 1 cheap cap, criticise Humphreys for getting at least 3 of them.


Hold on, why do you think I criticised Martyn Williams? Do you think I've criticised O'Gara too?

Criticising the selection of a player is NOT the same thing.

You are making a judgement that Martyn Williams has somehow or other devalued the jersey because he has a cap from a Babarians game (which is entirely up to the WRU whether they give out caps for Babarians games or not).

I take it you will mentally subtract at least 3 of David Humpreheys caps from now on the next time you see 72 caps for Ireland flash up on the screen.






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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:40 pm

red_stag wrote:Notch it takes two to make an argument. If you don't engage with SinEs posts he wont annoy you.

Simply tick the ignore box instead of getting worked up.

He is getting worked up because I have outed his double standards.
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Post by SecretFly Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:41 pm

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:I'm a ROG fan and Munster fan but I have to say anyone who thinks its a disgrace that he got dropped have not got the slightest clue about rugby. ROG have been aweful for years now. He was on a downward slope since well before the 2011 world cup and its just now that the media and Irish management have copped on.

I think a lot of people are using it as a stick to beat Kidney with.


Kidney is beating himself with his own sticks, Sin. He isn't doing the passing and catching and mistimed runs etc. We know all that argument. But he's been coaching the side that constantly do.

Kidney is beating himself. If sport is cruel on someone like O'Gara then I don't think Coaches should escape attention for constant underperformances either.
Kiss, Smal, Feek, Foley, Tainton and the rest of them should be spotlighted by the same journalists who keep identifying team issues as 'problem' players. It's always either Heaslip isn't a natural captain, or O'Gara isn't the right benchman, or O'Gara should have been left on the bench and not insulted, or O'Driscoll didn't bloody well work any magic today??!!! what's up with him???

Do the coaches get a tough inquisition in the press conferences after a game like Scotland? Are we polite to the coaches and then savage the players and indeed the critics of them?

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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:41 pm

red_stag wrote:
profitius wrote:I'm a ROG fan and Munster fan but I have to say anyone who thinks its a disgrace that he got dropped have not got the slightest clue about rugby. ROG have been aweful for years now. He was on a downward slope since well before the 2011 world cup and its just now that the media and Irish management have copped on.

I really REALLY hope that he no longer starts Heineken Cup games for Munster.

Well, lets hope that Keatley will step up to the plate.
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Post by red_stag Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:43 pm

Fly are you geneuinely trying to suggest that Kidney doesnt get enough blame for Irelands failures?
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Post by SecretFly Mon 04 Mar 2013, 10:55 pm

red_stag wrote:Fly are you geneuinely trying to suggest that Kidney doesnt get enough blame for Irelands failures?

Not in press conferences, Stag
- behind his back perhaps,
- slyly perhaps
- in the papers and TV punditry perhaps

...but not direct "was the gameplan completely wrong?" "Did we show there was no plan B in that game?" questions methodically put. And genuine answers waited for.

...and not just to him. I mentioned (and always mention) more than him, Stag. He's not alone and isn't alone in the blame for structural and tactical errors in how Ireland plays its rugby.

The snippets I hear from live conferences are always very polite and the criticism of coaching failures, which are obvious and constantly so, are mostly shipped onto player shoulders by the collected media. "Did you pick the right flyhalf?" "Is Heaslip under pressure?" "Why did you pick Zebo over Trimble?" etc. It absolves, it pushes the weaknesses onto the players chosen rather than the gameplan played and the guys who actually keep choosing the players to play it.

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Post by Sin é Mon 04 Mar 2013, 11:02 pm

The players are not up to the game plan (which is basically - don't give away stupid penalties, don't knock-on balls, don't kick away needlessly) - i.e., stop making errors.

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Post by Notch Mon 04 Mar 2013, 11:17 pm

Saw someone else suggest on twitter- Ronan O'Gara for Barbarians to play the Lions in Hong Kong this summer. That would be perfect.

Sin, the fact that you won't even consider a dialogue on this means I can't engage with you. I've just tried to explain how the situations aren't comparable but apparently this is double standards Rolling Eyes

Humphreys was on the bench as an unused sub for every Six Nations game in 2006. He walked away as 2nd choice. O'Gara isn't 2nd choice anymore. Thats the difference. And whats more, Humphreys doesn't matter. It's a universal standard.
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Post by SecretFly Mon 04 Mar 2013, 11:29 pm

For the best part of three years, the players have always been responsible for the violent shifts in ability displayed, sin?

They're always responsible for the profoundly erratic nature of games where the players can scythe through opposition one moment and then look like they couldn't cut through hot butter in another game or even in another half?

The players have been completely responsible for those years of bizarre handling errors, over-reaching, misreading each other's intentions, running into each other, overthrowing lineouts, running away from support, support not choosing to run?

The players have been totally responsible for the continued knock forwards (calmed a little of late thankfully!), the constant giving away of penalties in kickable territory?

The players have been exclusively responsible for choosing to kick easy possession back to dangerous running sides? They've chosen to keep doing that, regardless of who is kicking, in the face of brutal coaching criticism of the wastage and danger when they come in for their halftime talks? The players always wanted to hopelessly box kick over and over through a single game even knowing that it was achieving absolutely nothing solid in platform creating?

Players kept doing all that wrong stuff even when being told not to over and over and over again by their coaches?

Hmmm logic begins to suffer. The constant in all that is the central coaching team...not the players.

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Post by 100%beefy Mon 04 Mar 2013, 11:39 pm

You are only as good as your last game, it's a hard truism for the guy but he will be remembered as a bad Lion and sadly for a dumb kick...but frankly only the opinions of those of his peers that know what he was worth to a team that over relied on him for years is of any importance. To have a kicker who could win games at will cannot be quantified.


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Ireland owe ROG Empty Re: Ireland owe ROG

Post by Hound_of_Harrow Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:45 am

I don't know if Kidney offered ROG the chance to call it a day for Ireland and ROG refused. It would have been an honourable end for a player who, having done so much, must have realised that his recent performances were way below par.

It happens in the world of work. "Look xxxx, we appreciate all you've done, but things have moved on and you're no longer up to the task." "We don't want to sack you, but we'll have to if things carry on the way they are." "Resign, and we'll give you a good send off."

This whole business is going to divide support for your national team the way it's going. Judging by this forum it already has.

Good luck against France.

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Ireland owe ROG Empty Re: Ireland owe ROG

Post by Sin é Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:54 am

Hound - ROG can't just say he isn't available as he is under contract to the IRFU to the end of this season. He has to make himself available to be picked whether he likes it or not.

The Irish management are saying that he could be back for the Italian game for some reason which seems bizarre.

RTE from Report at Ireland press conference.

Kiss' view was shared by team manager Mick Kearney, who also defended the manner in which the news was broken.

A two-paragraph statement released by the Irish Rugby Football Union last night made no mention of the exclusion of O'Gara, who has been an ever-present among Ireland squads since making his debut in 2000.

"I don't think this marks the end of Ronan's international career. There's still every possibility that he may be involved again," Kearney said.

"By leaving him out of the squad for France, it certainly wasn't Declan's intention that he was writing off his international career. That's not the case at all.

"It's a selection call. Declan spoke to Ronan yesterday. He wanted to give Ronan advance warning of what his thinking would be.

"If Ronan had come in he'd have been running in the centre or on the wing. Out of respect, Declan didn't want him to do that.

"Giving him an early warning was the right thing to do, given who Ronan is. He was disappointed, as you'd expect him to be.

"Obviously Ronan is an absolute legend of Irish rugby who has contributed a massive amount, but it wouldn't have been the right thing to do for Declan or the management to issue a statement.

"It wasn't that we were signalling the end of his career, there's still a decent possibility that Ronan will be involved before the end of the Six Nations.

"If that's the case, I don't think a statement would have served any real purpose."

With Sexton's availability for Saturday still hanging in the balance due to the hamstring injury sustained against England, Ireland must decide whether to retain Jackson or give Madigan his debut.

Jackson acquitted himself well in open play against Scotland, but crucially he missed eight points from the kicking tee in the 12-8 defeat at Murrayfield.

If Sexton fails to recover in time, Ireland will enter a must-win encounter with two fly-halves who have only one cap between them.

"Jonny has only been running in straight lines. The plan is that tomorrow he will run as close as possible at full speed and take it on from then. Tomorrow will be a very important day," Kearney said.

"It's very difficult to make a call at this stage. He hasn't been ruled out, but at best he's 50-50. He's done no kicking yet."

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-na...-ogara-return/
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Ireland owe ROG Empty Re: Ireland owe ROG

Post by dublin_dave Tue 05 Mar 2013, 1:03 am

im not sure why this has caused such debate to be honest

Ronan O'Gara owes Ireland nothing. He has been a great servant and has scored 1000 plus points for his country since his debut. No mean feat.

Ireland conversely owe him nothing. It is a privilege to play for your country and he has been selected 128 times and has performed on the whole very well.

He has not performed the last two years and Kidney has selected the three best out halves in Ireland with one eye looking to the future. Cannot see how he can have any complaints

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Post by Hound_of_Harrow Tue 05 Mar 2013, 1:10 am

Sin, surely any player has the right to call time on their international career if they feel it's the right thing to do.

Headscratch

Would a player lose money if they stood themselves down? I'm not saying that is necessarily a factor in this case.

I think the English EPS system is a bit rigid in that SL can't call anyone in from outside the Ist and Saxons squads, but to not allow a player to retire once selected in the elite squad just seems a bit odd.


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Post by Sin é Tue 05 Mar 2013, 1:20 am

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Sin, surely any player has the right to call time on their international career if they feel it's the right thing to do.

Headscratch

Would a player lose money if they stood themselves down? I'm not saying that is necessarily a factor in this case.

I think the English EPS system is a bit rigid in that SL can't call anyone in from outside the Ist and Saxons squads, but to not allow a player to retire once selected in the elite squad just seems a bit odd.

ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.
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Post by GunsGerms Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:33 am

Notch wrote:I have to disagree completely.

Truth is, you don't owe any individual anything. It's about the team and it's about the shirt. The only obligation the coach has is to fill the shirts with the best players.

O'Gara is a legend of Irish rugby. One final cap or not, that doesn't change. He joins the pantheon of our best outhalves; Jackie Kyle, Tony Ward, Ollie Campbell, Eric Elwood, David Humphreys, Ronan O'Gara. All great outhalves, all deserving of great respect for their achievements. And all with nothing more to offer the team they served so well for so long.

As they say in Munster, you're just minding the jersey for the next guy. Sentiment is for the after dinner speeches and the newspaper editorials, not selection for the national side. And it's high time we learned that in Ireland.

Completly agree Notch, every word. Way too sentimental at times. Its about winning and always putting the right men on the pitch in every match.

Dont remember such a fanfare when Mils Muliana NZs first test centurion was dropped. ABs are never afraid to drop a has been.

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:35 am

Sin é wrote:ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.

Its not like you cant break your contract if you want to retire.

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Post by Morgannwg Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:41 am

GunsGerms wrote:

Completly agree Notch, every word. Way too sentimental at times. Its about winning and always putting the right men on the pitch in every match.

Dont remember such a fanfare when Mils Muliana NZs first test centurion was dropped. ABs are never afraid to drop a has been.

That's way OTT. Mils was the number one in his position up until Dagg took over at the RWC, where he came into his own. Muliaina retiring was a shock to me, but he did when he was still at the top and went out when the All Blacks were winning.
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Ireland owe ROG Empty Re: Ireland owe ROG

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:43 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.

Its not like you cant break your contract if you want to retire.

Indeed. It's quite common practice.

And if he did opt to retire from test rugby in all likelihood the IRFU & Munster would probably happily switch him over to a provincial contract for the balance of the season - yes he'd lose some income from it, but there's no other real impediment. For that matter, for a player of ROG's past stature, there's no reason for the IRFU to not honour his contract through to the end of the season and simply not select him - he's slipped far enough down the pecking order that he likely won't be needed anyway.

I'm a kiwi - we pay homage to the shirt not the player. Once another player takes the shirt we wish his predecessor well, but are quite happy to laud the replacement. On the few occasions where a coach has let sentiment get in the way (John Hart with a crocked Sean Fitzpatrick for example) the public and the media are usually pretty vocal in letting their feelings known.
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Ireland owe ROG Empty Re: Ireland owe ROG

Post by LondonTiger Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:46 am

Ireland owe ROG a huge thank you for his services. He certainly does not deserve the flak he has received.

Kidney owes Ireland (and ROG) an apology for picking him when he was no longer up to it.

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Post by Sin é Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:48 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.

Its not like you cant break your contract if you want to retire.

The man has a wife and 4 kids and you are suggesting he break his contract mid-season and go on the dole?

Jackson had an injury scare at training yesterday, the IRFU might need him yet. Wink It would take the two parties to agree to the breaking of the contract.

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 05 Mar 2013, 10:56 am

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.

Its not like you cant break your contract if you want to retire.

The man has a wife and 4 kids and you are suggesting he break his contract mid-season and go on the dole?

Jackson had an injury scare at training yesterday, the IRFU might need him yet. Wink It would take the two parties to agree to the breaking of the contract.


No he should have retired after the world cup with some dignity intact. ROG has a portfolio of properties and other interests. Provided he can keep his former penchant for gambling under control I would be amazed if he ever has to go on the dole.

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Post by Sin é Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:02 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.

Its not like you cant break your contract if you want to retire.

Indeed. It's quite common practice.

And if he did opt to retire from test rugby in all likelihood the IRFU & Munster would probably happily switch him over to a provincial contract for the balance of the season - yes he'd lose some income from it, but there's no other real impediment. For that matter, for a player of ROG's past stature, there's no reason for the IRFU to not honour his contract through to the end of the season and simply not select him - he's slipped far enough down the pecking order that he likely won't be needed anyway.

I'm a kiwi - we pay homage to the shirt not the player. Once another player takes the shirt we wish his predecessor well, but are quite happy to laud the replacement. On the few occasions where a coach has let sentiment get in the way (John Hart with a crocked Sean Fitzpatrick for example) the public and the media are usually pretty vocal in letting their feelings known.

In Munster the same 'homage to the shirt, not the player' applies. Its different though in other provinces in Ireland who have allowed some players get bigger than the team. Kidney has history of dropping players for big games - Anthony Foley for the Heineken Cup Final in '08 about to retire, Stringer, Shaun Payne - all huge players for Munster.

I certainly don't think there is a problem dropping ROG from the international team. Lots of players have been dropped in the past - the problem this time though is that the replacements haven't really earned the jersey either.




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Post by LondonTiger Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:03 am

Straight after RWC11 ROG was being lauded for his part in Munster's comebacks in their first two HEC matches. (40+ phases after time was up against Saints?). Pundits were hailing him as back to his best.

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:06 am

Sin é wrote:
In Munster the same 'homage to the shirt, not the player' applies. Its different though in other provinces in Ireland who have allowed some players get bigger than the team. Kidney has history of dropping players for big games - Anthony Foley for the Heineken Cup Final in '08 about to retire, Stringer, Shaun Payne - all huge players for Munster.

I certainly don't think there is a problem dropping ROG from the international team. Lots of players have been dropped in the past - the problem this time though is that the replacements haven't really earned the jersey either.

POC is arguably bigger than the team at Munster and is often drafted straight back in after long injury absences. As is ROG at times.

Tell me what exactly does Ian Madigan have to do to break into the Ireland squad ahead of ROG? Is playing a lot better than him for his province not enough?


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Post by Sin é Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:07 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:ROG is on a central contract with the IRFU, not with Munster Rugby. He would be breaking his contract. I recall him asking to miss a summer tour to the SH 2/3 years ago (his wife was expecting a baby) but they made him travel even though he just warmed the bench for Sexton.

Its not like you cant break your contract if you want to retire.

The man has a wife and 4 kids and you are suggesting he break his contract mid-season and go on the dole?

Jackson had an injury scare at training yesterday, the IRFU might need him yet. Wink It would take the two parties to agree to the breaking of the contract.


No he should have retired after the world cup with some dignity intact. ROG has a portfolio of properties and other interests. Provided he can keep his former penchant for gambling under control I would be amazed if he ever has to go on the dole.

Him (and a lot of his contemporaries) were wiped out by the banking/property collapse. One of the banks is pursuing Frankie Sheahan (actually his father who was his guarantor) for about 1.5million.

Remind me what level Paddy Jackson & Ian Madigan were playing at in Nov. 2011 (not to mention Sexton who was a long way off being an international outhalf).


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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:09 am

LondonTiger wrote:Straight after RWC11 ROG was being lauded for his part in Munster's comebacks in their first two HEC matches. (40+ phases after time was up against Saints?). Pundits were hailing him as back to his best.

The pundits were wrong,he held his nerve to slot a couple of drop goals but was pretty average over the full 80 minutes of those games.RoG hasn't been near his best since 2010.

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Post by Morgannwg Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:09 am

LondonTiger wrote:Straight after RWC11 ROG was being lauded for his part in Munster's comebacks in their first two HEC matches. (40+ phases after time was up against Saints?). Pundits were hailing him as back to his best.

True.
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Post by GunsGerms Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:09 am

LondonTiger wrote:Straight after RWC11 ROG was being lauded for his part in Munster's comebacks in their first two HEC matches. (40+ phases after time was up against Saints?). Pundits were hailing him as back to his best.

Thats all he did though. Its all very well dropping the odd goal to save your team but if you are weak for the other 79 minutes then thats not much good is it?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:10 am

Why should a player 'formally' retire or need to, mid Championship...after a very bad day at the office against Scotland and after being dropped from the bench by his coach?

O'Gara doesn't really have to do a blessed thing right now. He doesn't have to feed the media tasty morsels just when Ireland are on the ropes in the middle of the 6N. The word 'retirement' can wait for a less dramatic period...the journalists who'd crave the controversy of it all ("OOH!!! AHHH!!!) have enough gravy on their beef as it is.

Let the Championship continue. Let Ireland make a better fist of it!!! And let Ronan O'Gara make his decision about his future at a quieter moment. It's simple really.

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Post by Don Alfonso Tue 05 Mar 2013, 11:13 am

I honestly cannot get my head around what would be a “fitting” send-off for ROG? Should we ask the opposition to let Ireland to get within two points and 5m of their line at 79 minutes, and then defend like demons, necessitating a ROG drop goal during which they will agree not to rush him? Who’s drafting THAT email?

Who are these players whose last games hear Hosannas ring out around the stadium, as flower petals drift from the roof and fireworks spell out their name?

You either have the cannons to retire when you still have a bit to offer, or you peter out. Ronan O’Gara has ruled himself out of contention with the poor quality of his playing. (Even) Kidney has (eventually) been forced into putting his faith in others.

Rugby careers are not scripted by schmaltzy Hollywood screenwriters. Thank God.


Thanks, Ronan.

NEXT!

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