Scots v Ireland: Who Will Have More Lions?

First topic message reminder :

I have a gnawing worry that Ireland may be the least represented nation on the Lions panel this year.

We will probably see Healy, Best, Ryan, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Kearney but outside of that the cupboard looks bare either due to injury (O'Connell, Ferris, Bowe, Zebo).

With a number of Scots looking good enough to tour - Grant, Ford, Gray, Brown, Beattie, Laidlaw, Hogg, Visser, Maitland and maybe even even E.Murray or Rennie it has me wondering will the Irish have the least players on this Lions Tour?

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd love Laidlaw to tour. He has such a good mentality and is a real natural rugby player and reader of the game - he would thrive in that environment.

There's still rugby to be played, but he should tour. Too few players now seem able to think for themselves and adapt as the game's unfolding, but Laidlaw has that ability. It's a cliche to say someone has a rugby brain, but he really does.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd love Laidlaw to tour. He has such a good mentality and is a real natural rugby player and reader of the game - he would thrive in that environment.

There's still rugby to be played, but he should tour. Too few players seem able to think for themselves and adapt as the game's unfolding, but Laidlaw has that ability. It's a cliche to say someone has a rugby brain, but he really does.

Has to start IMO

It depends what kind of game Gatland wants to play I think. Laidlaw will give you allround organisation and a good kicking game but he is a little slow, Care will give a fantastic running game (although he is a total douchebag) and Youngs is a good allrounder as is Murray I suppose.

Phillips did a job for us against SA due to his physicality but I think that is redundant against Australia, and we need more than that from our 9.

I think it will be Laidlaw/Youngs/Murray starting off with Care being a sub to come on and liven things up a bit.

There’s still a loot of rugby to go though!

No matter who starts Care is the ideal #22.

Agreed.

What's your thoughts on the Irish 9s Stag? I see them as solid if unspectacular...

RDW_Scotland wrote:What's your thoughts on the Irish 9s Stag? I see them as solid if unspectacular...

Wouldn't take any of them on tour.

Laidlaw to start, Care on the bench and Phillips to be there too.

A great mix of players all who bring different things to the group.

I'd start Ben Youngs personally with Danny Care on the bench.

Phillips being the 3rd scrum half to tour.

Laidlaw is playing himself into contention though. I'd take him ahead of Connor Murray.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd start Ben Youngs personally with Danny Care on the bench.

Phillips being the 3rd scrum half to tour.

Laidlaw is playing himself into contention though. I'd take him ahead of Connor Murray.

For me:

1. Youngs
2. Laidlaw
3. Care

Though they are all around the same level.

They are very different though. Laidlaw doesn't have a break on him to speak of, whereas Youngs and Care can be electric.

I can't see a situation, barring injury, where Youngs and Care don't both go. Perfect for SH conditions.

I'd expect Ireland to have a few more even with POC and Ferris out injured.

Healy, Best, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD are as good as there in my eyes (injury dependent of course). Kearney should travel and if Bowe and Zebo are fit I'd take both too - Bowe would be one of the first names on my team sheet if fit. Add to that Heaslip and Ryan having very good cases for selection and I'd expect them to pip Scotland.

I must be missing something with Tommy Bowe. Is he really such an outstanding player that he only has to prove his fitness to get into the Test side?

He is in Ireland. A bit like Lydiate in Wales.

They'll both have to earn their places. Or they should have to.

Completely agree. If neither play good rugby between now and the tour then neither should go. Same goes for Ross Rennie of Scotland.

No rugby. No form. No tour.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Completely agree. If neither play good rugby between now and the tour then neither should go. Same goes for Ross Rennie of Scotland.

No rugby. No form. No tour.

Agree Agree Agree: a million per cent

Have to say this has been a nice, civlised conversation about the Lions – I’ve stayed away from the hundreds of other threads because the Wumming just does my nut in!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Have to say this has been a nice, civlised conversation about the Lions – I’ve stayed away from the hundreds of other threads because the Wumming just does my nut in!

Did you not wonder why I specificied Scottish and Irish Lions.

It meant that it kept away the diehard Welsh v English debates

red_stag wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Have to say this has been a nice, civlised conversation about the Lions – I’ve stayed away from the hundreds of other threads because the Wumming just does my nut in!

Did you not wonder why I specificied Scottish and Irish Lions.

It meant that it kept away the diehard Welsh v English debates

Don't jinx things now Stag!

Completely agree. Nice music plays in my head when I read a thread with people politely talking sense whilst trying to be objective and magnanimous about their home players' prospects.

Perhaps you should just lock it now RDW and we can dip it in bronze for posterity.

Like they did with Han Solo.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Have to say this has been a nice, civlised conversation about the Lions – I’ve stayed away from the hundreds of other threads because the Wumming just does my nut in!

Anyone wanna talk about Sean Maitland's prospects again?

I was more thinking Mike Ross V Euan Murray? Can't see both going...

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd start Ben Youngs personally with Danny Care on the bench.

Phillips being the 3rd scrum half to tour.

Laidlaw is playing himself into contention though. I'd take him ahead of Connor Murray.

I can see all 4 going with Laidlaw coverign 10 behind Sexton and Farrell

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I must be missing something with Tommy Bowe. Is he really such an outstanding player that he only has to prove his fitness to get into the Test side?

If he returns in time for the HC knockout stages I'd expect him to prove his form. In terms of missing something he isn't the flashy sort of wing a lot of people love but he's exactly the sort of winger I love because he does everything very well, makes very few mistakes and finishes anything you offer him.

Compare him to the other wing options we have - Ashton, North, Cuthbert and Visser are all great weapons but don't have all round games and are inconsistent, Zebo/Gilroy are inexperienced internationally etc. When you look at Bowes all round game, finishing potency, versatility and experience he's exactly the sort of guy you want on a Lions tour so if he shows some form I'd take him in an instant.

I agree if he shows nothing he shouldn't travel the same as any player however.

Well argued, king_carlos. I still don't quite see it, but well argued all the same.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I was more thinking Mike Ross V Euan Murray? Can't see both going...

Euan Murray every day of the week.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I must be missing something with Tommy Bowe. Is he really such an outstanding player that he only has to prove his fitness to get into the Test side?

Well, no, he has to get selected like everyone else but no doubt when he's on form he is much better than any other wing we have going- possible exception of Maitland. If he can make the tour it would be a big boost for the Lions, but I'd be inclined to treat him the same as everyone else- must be in form and fit.

king carlos wrote:In terms of missing something he isn't the flashy sort of wing a lot of people love but he's exactly the sort of winger I love because he does everything very well, makes very few mistakes and finishes anything you offer him.

This is it in a nutshell- he and Maitland are complete rugby players. They can do everything demanded by the position to a very high level. Every other wing going has weaknesses in their game somewhere. I hate nothing more than hearing accolades for a player who gets hyped up to the rafters for doing some things exceptionally well when they have fundamental weaknesses elsewhere in their game that are swept under the rug (cough, Keith Earls, cough, please don't pick Earls, cough.)

Which means I dislike almost all Irish players, because god we have them. Especially Munster players, historically, but plenty from Ulster too. Leinster seem to produce the most rounded players. I suspect their work on core skills is streets ahead- thats why Maitland is sooo good. Fantastic basics.

But weaknesses can be counterbalanced or outweighed by strengths. I would be more inclined to select an outstanding player with a weakness (depending on what that weakness is) than a solid player with no weaknesses.

Thing is, a solid player with no weaknesses is Mark Cueto. Tommy Bowe, Bryan Habana etc. are in a different class altogether.

The debate is between players with outstanding strengths and some weaknesses and outstanding players with no weaknesses. Essentially the difference between excellent test players with limitations and world class players. We have one proven world class winger in Tommy Bowe but he needs to prove he can get back fit and in form for the Tour as he's out right now. We have another guy who I think is potential world class in Maitland.

Compared to NZ who have several guys of that stature we can only muster at most two between all four home unions so you'd think if Bowe can prove his fitness, he's in with a shot.

But I just don't think Tommy Bowe is outstanding. Don't worry though, I'm not selecting the Lions squad.

red_stag wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I was more thinking Mike Ross V Euan Murray? Can't see both going...

Euan Murray every day of the week.

Not Sunday's presumably?

Why not? He plays in the Pro12 he scores tries consistently and he doesn't make mistakes. He plays in the HC he scores tries consistently and he doesn't make mistakes. He plays at test level he scores tries consistently and he doesn't make mistakes. He plays for the Lions he scores tries consistently and he doesn't make mistakes.

Now, the tries- they are the bonus, the extra 10% that is the difference between good and great. But the thing that makes him world class is the fact his error count in terms of decision making, positioning in defence, kicking, catching and tackling is very, very low.

I hate this trait in rugby where wingers are assessed primarily by what they do when they get the ball in space. Thats the difference between good and great as I've said before. But they generally get less touches of the rugby ball than anyone else on the field no matter what the weather is like. That thing where they get to show their x-factor- it doesn't happen very often. And the better the test side you are facing, the less often it happens. So the thing you assess them by is what they do for 90% of the game, when they are on the backfoot- defence, positioning, catching, kicking. Those are the things they have to do right all the time. Getting to attack ball in hand only happens when things go well. So if they can do all that excellently well and THEN kick it up a gear and take their one chance when it presents itself and score- thats when you know you have a player on your hands.

There are so many games there are no linebreaks and thats where your theory about outstanding ability counterbalancing weaknesses falls down. Because if you want to say a winger is top class, you have to be able to say he is as valuable to his team in a 9-6 drudgefest in the rain with no linebreaks as a free-scoring romp on hard ground.

I repeat, I'm not selecting the Lions squad. I'm entitled not to rate him. Cool your boots, man!

Eh?

I'm just talking rugby, whats the problem?

red_stag wrote:No matter who starts Care is the ideal #22.

More typically #21!

If the B&I Lions are going to be instructed to play Gatland-ball, don't look pasts Mike Phillips at 9 imo

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

red_stag wrote:No matter who starts Care is the ideal #22.

More typically #21!

Am I right to remember Bowe as playing outstandingly well in last year's 6Ns?

Winger is not one of the positions where I see great strength for the Lions - North is good as a big winger, but the other options currently playing all haev some strengths and some weaknesses (in fact, mostly the same weakness, that they aren't good defenders - Ashton, McVisser, Cuthbert). Bowe is staying well in contention even without playing because he is a proven good international class player, and none of the others are putting in a hugely convincing case for inclusion.

Indeed, at the moment I'd be inclined to pick 1/2p on the wing and Hogg at fullback, with Brown on the bench to cover the back 3.

Paul O'Connell is due to play next week for Munster A (against Leinster), whathever about the Lions, he should be back for the QFs

dummy_half wrote:Am I right to remember Bowe as playing outstandingly well in last year's 6Ns?

Winger is not one of the positions where I see great strength for the Lions - North is good as a big winger, but the other options currently playing all haev some strengths and some weaknesses (in fact, mostly the same weakness, that they aren't good defenders - Ashton, McVisser, Cuthbert). Bowe is staying well in contention even without playing because he is a proven good international class player, and none of the others are putting in a hugely convincing case for inclusion.

Indeed, at the moment I'd be inclined to pick 1/2p on the wing and Hogg at fullback, with Brown on the bench to cover the back 3.

Bowe top try scorer last year in the 6N. 6 tries which I think equalled Ashtons record. Anyone can confirm?

Bowe, if fit, has the added quality of being an outstanding Lion. Right now a Lions back line looks pretty light on those especially with BOD and Kearney hardly setting the world alight...Bowe has real pace and is defensivley excellent. I would take him as a senior payer and Lion as long as he is fully fit

GunsGerms wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Am I right to remember Bowe as playing outstandingly well in last year's 6Ns?

Winger is not one of the positions where I see great strength for the Lions - North is good as a big winger, but the other options currently playing all haev some strengths and some weaknesses (in fact, mostly the same weakness, that they aren't good defenders - Ashton, McVisser, Cuthbert). Bowe is staying well in contention even without playing because he is a proven good international class player, and none of the others are putting in a hugely convincing case for inclusion.

Indeed, at the moment I'd be inclined to pick 1/2p on the wing and Hogg at fullback, with Brown on the bench to cover the back 3.

Bowe top try scorer last year in the 6N. 6 tries which I think equalled Ashtons record. Anyone can confirm?

He possibly was - but I think he had a poor enough 6Ns (by his own standards). He was only coming back from an injury I think.

edit: and recently, some Ulster fans were saying that he should be the one dropped to accommodate Craig Gilroy as Andrew Trimble was playing better than him.

GunsGerms wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Am I right to remember Bowe as playing outstandingly well in last year's 6Ns?

Winger is not one of the positions where I see great strength for the Lions - North is good as a big winger, but the other options currently playing all haev some strengths and some weaknesses (in fact, mostly the same weakness, that they aren't good defenders - Ashton, McVisser, Cuthbert). Bowe is staying well in contention even without playing because he is a proven good international class player, and none of the others are putting in a hugely convincing case for inclusion.

Indeed, at the moment I'd be inclined to pick 1/2p on the wing and Hogg at fullback, with Brown on the bench to cover the back 3.

Bowe top try scorer last year in the 6N. 6 tries which I think equalled Ashtons record. Anyone can confirm?

Bowe only got 5. Ashton's record still stands.

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I know that he has Scottish relatives but I would rather Maitland didnt travel too to be honest. He has barely been involved in B&I rugby a few months and therefore think it cheapens the jersey a little.

I know. I expect a pure Ayrian race to go on tour.

Surely GunsnGerms' point was that race/"blood" is actually the least important factor.

thomh wrote:

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I know that he has Scottish relatives but I would rather Maitland didnt travel too to be honest. He has barely been involved in B&I rugby a few months and therefore think it cheapens the jersey a little.

I know. I expect a pure Ayrian race to go on tour.

Surely GunsnGerms' point was that race/"blood" is actually the least important factor.

I think Stag was just trying to wind me up. Wily auld fox that he is.

I think any player is one game away from a Lions place at the moment. If Jim Hamilton has a huge game vs Wales he is in with a very good chance. If Beattie or Heaslip have a standout game they're both in with a good chance. Its getting pretty tight and I bet Gatland is keeping a close eye on players for these last two rounds of rugby.

It can really go anyway at the moment. Wales could win their last 2, finishing on 8 points, potentially even with England.

Scotland could win their last two games and finish even with England if England lose to Wales.

Ireland could win their last two games and come 2nd or 3rd

England could win a GS and completely blow the other three out of the water.

I think the best result would be for Scotland to win all their remaining games and for Ireland to win all of theirs too, and for Wales to beat England. Then we'll have England 8, Scotland 8, Ireland 6, Wales 6. (no disrespect to Italy, they may beat England and Ireland)

I think that would result in a very good representation from all four nations.

If Wales and England finish top then I think Scotland and Irish representation will be down, with Scotland being worse off.

GunsGerms wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Am I right to remember Bowe as playing outstandingly well in last year's 6Ns?

Winger is not one of the positions where I see great strength for the Lions - North is good as a big winger, but the other options currently playing all haev some strengths and some weaknesses (in fact, mostly the same weakness, that they aren't good defenders - Ashton, McVisser, Cuthbert). Bowe is staying well in contention even without playing because he is a proven good international class player, and none of the others are putting in a hugely convincing case for inclusion.

Indeed, at the moment I'd be inclined to pick 1/2p on the wing and Hogg at fullback, with Brown on the bench to cover the back 3.

Bowe top try scorer last year in the 6N. 6 tries which I think equalled Ashtons record. Anyone can confirm?

Yes, Bowe with 5, Fofana with 4. Championship record is 8.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Am I right to remember Bowe as playing outstandingly well in last year's 6Ns?

Winger is not one of the positions where I see great strength for the Lions - North is good as a big winger, but the other options currently playing all haev some strengths and some weaknesses (in fact, mostly the same weakness, that they aren't good defenders - Ashton, McVisser, Cuthbert). Bowe is staying well in contention even without playing because he is a proven good international class player, and none of the others are putting in a hugely convincing case for inclusion.

Indeed, at the moment I'd be inclined to pick 1/2p on the wing and Hogg at fullback, with Brown on the bench to cover the back 3.

Bowe top try scorer last year in the 6N. 6 tries which I think equalled Ashtons record. Anyone can confirm?

He possibly was - but I think he had a poor enough 6Ns (by his own standards). He was only coming back from an injury I think.

edit: and recently, some Ulster fans were saying that he should be the one dropped to accommodate Craig Gilroy as Andrew Trimble was playing better than him.

Indeed. Well, actually, don't think Gilroy should have been included for Bowe. But Trimble- despite not being in the same class as Bowe- is first pick for Ulster on form.

Who got the 8? Was it Blanco? Wasnt in the 6 nations was it?