England 23 vs Italy?

First topic message reminder :

Normally by now Lancaster has named his 23 but keeps us guessing as to who's starting the game! Anyone know who's been released back to there clubs or is it different because there are only lv games this weekend

killer938 wrote:As expected and a strong squad, absolutely thrilled for Croft

yeah i agree, wasn't expecting him to return so quickly. If we're winning well i can Lancaster using the whole bench to give the main starters a rest.

DaveM wrote:Why would you not have 36 on the bench? He can play both centre positions, and has even played wing before. He's a brilliant bench option, it's just a shame he isn't starting.

Agree completely... the only decision with 36 is whether should start (in place of Manu, or by shifting Manu to the wing, perhaps). No question he should be on the bench for me. 36 can also cover FH at a push.

yappysnap wrote:My only gripe is Wood still there at 8. Lancaster obviously rates him there but to me so far he's looked out of his depth at the back of the scrum and doesn't have as much of an impact in the rucks as he does playing 6.

Otherwise happy with that and excited to see what Care/Flood can create.

Oh and congrats to Mako on his first start

yeah, I'd put Hask at 8 and and Wood at 6, Haskell was one of our best players in 2011 in that position, I'd be asking him to try and nail it and challenge Morgan for the 8.

Glad Care is starting and with Crofty and Burns on the bench the replacements isn't all grunt and no pace

Ashton will be pleased that Flood is back. England will be a much more potent attacking force. Ashton to score at least 2 with a 10 who has the vision and skill levels to expoit his angles of running . Hope Farrell is fit for Cardiff

100%beefy wrote:england's strength in depth is frankly alarming....they can draw on players from absolutely anywhere in the world!!

Whereas Wales just pop over to England for half their side.

Yappysnap

I agree I would prefer to have a proper 8 at 8 wood at 6 and Haskell on the bench or out the squad, but wood has done very well in his last two games and pushed robshaw very hard for mom against the French. I don't think he has looked put his depth at all, the only thing he hasn't brought is explosive ball carrying like vunipola or morgan have but his cardio, breakdown and lineout work are much better

damage_13 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:My only gripe is Wood still there at 8. Lancaster obviously rates him there but to me so far he's looked out of his depth at the back of the scrum and doesn't have as much of an impact in the rucks as he does playing 6.

Otherwise happy with that and excited to see what Care/Flood can create.

Oh and congrats to Mako on his first start

yeah, I'd put Hask at 8 and and Wood at 6, Haskell was one of our best players in 2011 in that position, I'd be asking him to try and nail it and challenge Morgan for the 8.

Glad Care is starting and with Crofty and Burns on the bench the replacements isn't all grunt and no pace

Pretty certain we'll see Hask and Wood interchanging at 6/8 depending on whether it's an attacking scrum.

What about the Italian team?

Toadfish wrote:For me your reserve fly half/starting fly half cover IC so am looking for the other bench option to cover OC and the back three. Particularly at a time when we have two full backs starting I'd think the option to have a proper winger with an injection of pace off the bench would be preferable.

I'd avoid turning little things like that into a fixed rule. Tuilagi covers wing, and Brown covers full back. I assume they'll have been running training to cover the different possibilities if one of those changes has to happen.

SL has spoken recently about using Tuilagi as a wing, indeed I wouldn't be surprised if Twelvetrees game on and Tuilagi shifted to the wing.

lostinwales wrote:What about the Italian team?

1-8: Sergio Parisse
9-15: Sergio Parisse

Replacements: Sergio Parisse

thomh wrote:

Toadfish wrote:For me your reserve fly half/starting fly half cover IC so am looking for the other bench option to cover OC and the back three. Particularly at a time when we have two full backs starting I'd think the option to have a proper winger with an injection of pace off the bench would be preferable.

I'd avoid turning little things like that into a fixed rule. Tuilagi covers wing, and Brown covers full back. I assume they'll have been running training to cover the different possibilities if one of those changes has to happen.

Hey look I don't think it's going to be a problem and I never said it was a fixed rule, just my opinion. I'd rather not find ourselves in a position where our back three is two full backs and an OC. Can you name another country who has their backs bench made up of a 9, a 10 and a 12/10?

As I say no biggie, just not how I'd like it.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

lostinwales wrote:What about the Italian team?

1-8: Sergio Parisse
9-15: Sergio Parisse

Replacements: Sergio Parisse

See how the Italians are superior? We do have Croft but he only covers 4-15..

Toadfish - I agree it's not ideal, but Brown has done a decent job on the wing and Ashton will only come off if he's injured, so it's unlikely to be a problem. I think any bench selection will leave you potentially weak in one or two positions. Under MJ, for example, we had Banahan on the bench, which meant that Cueto would have to move to full back if Foden went off. If Ryan Jones goes off for Wales then they've only got a specialist openside to bring on.

An alternative would be having Strettle at 23, but that would just leave us vulnerable in the centres.

The management of Billy Twelvetrees during this tournament has been extremely poor. He came into the Six Nations playing reasonably well for his club side and had an outstanding debut, followed by a solid display for 50 minutes against Ireland. Those 50 minutes were his last on a rugby pitch, and by the time Sunday's game comes around that will have been exactly a month ago. How can a player be expected to maintain form and match sharpness when he has been prevented from playing?

Personally I would have him starting at 12 alongside Tuilagi, but that subject has been discussed to death.

Why has he been given no game time at all? Left on the bench against France, not released to his club last weekend and now on the bench again. What message does that send, and what can really be expected of him given his extended and unnecessary break from playing? Really poor from the management and not how they should be treating one of their brightest prospects.

To have a taste of international rugby and then be forced to twiddle your thumbs for a month must be really disheartening.

That only really amounts to two weekends of club matches that he's missed though. The first was understandable, as he'd just started both Six Nations matches and could have started the France game if Tuilagi hadn't proved his fitness. The second is more strange, but might mean that they're anticipating him getting a pretty sizeable runout this weekend.

I'd also say that being retained with the squad is actually a sign that you're part of the coaches' plans, and not necessarily disheartening. I doubt the players on the fringes of selection are ever pleased to hear that they're being sent back to their clubs.

DaveM wrote:SL has spoken recently about using Tuilagi as a wing, indeed I wouldn't be surprised if Twelvetrees game on and Tuilagi shifted to the wing.

No, NO NO NO.

Manu is NOT winger...

36 can play IC as Manu's preferred position is OC... that gives us a proper play maker in the centre so that we then drop 'Bunny-hop' Goode and move Brown to FB as he's far, far better in that position on attack.

jeffwinger wrote:The management of Billy Twelvetrees during this tournament has been extremely poor. He came into the Six Nations playing reasonably well for his club side and had an outstanding debut, followed by a solid display for 50 minutes against Ireland. Those 50 minutes were his last on a rugby pitch, and by the time Sunday's game comes around that will have been exactly a month ago. How can a player be expected to maintain form and match sharpness when he has been prevented from playing?

Personally I would have him starting at 12 alongside Tuilagi, but that subject has been discussed to death.

Why has he been given no game time at all? Left on the bench against France, not released to his club last weekend and now on the bench again. What message does that send, and what can really be expected of him given his extended and unnecessary break from playing? Really poor from the management and not how they should be treating one of their brightest prospects.

To have a taste of international rugby and then be forced to twiddle your thumbs for a month must be really disheartening.

he does take part in training you know, just like everyone else!

Congratulations to tom croft !!

I agree it looks likely Twelvetrees will get a decent runout this weekend (most likely about 30 minutes), but that will be the first time he's played in a month. How well can he be expected to perform? I wouldn't be surprised if he came on and looked great, because he's a good player, but surely this can't have been the best possible management of him?

jeffwinger wrote:I agree it looks likely Twelvetrees will get a decent runout this weekend (most likely about 30 minutes), but that will be the first time he's played in a month. How well can he be expected to perform? I wouldn't be surprised if he came on and looked great, because he's a good player, but surely this can't have been the best possible management of him?

He would be learning a huge amount being in the training squad, finding out which parts of his game he needs to improve on.

jeffwinger wrote:I agree it looks likely Twelvetrees will get a decent runout this weekend (most likely about 30 minutes), but that will be the first time he's played in a month. How well can he be expected to perform? I wouldn't be surprised if he came on and looked great, because he's a good player, but surely this can't have been the best possible management of him?

Only in hindsight though, given that they would have been expecting to bring him on against France but for whatever reason didn't end up doing it. Other than the one decision not to send him back to Gloucester last weekend, what do you think the management have done wrong with him?

The combination of not going back to Gloucester at all and not starting for England. A lot of the other players who have benched v France and Italy have played for their clubs in the mean time. Twelvetrees is the only one that has had no game time since Ireland and given the excitement after his first game it's a bit of a let down for him and us. Players need game time. Training isn't sufficient to retain form and match sharpness.

Could the reason that Twelvetrees was not released have been concern over Manu's ear?

damage_13 wrote:

DaveM wrote:SL has spoken recently about using Tuilagi as a wing, indeed I wouldn't be surprised if Twelvetrees game on and Tuilagi shifted to the wing.

No, NO NO NO.

Manu is NOT winger...

36 can play IC as Manu's preferred position is OC... that gives us a proper play maker in the centre so that we then drop 'Bunny-hop' Goode and move Brown to FB as he's far, far better in that position on attack.

But how do you know he isn't? SL sees him in training and thinks he's capable of playing there. I think it'll be interesting to see how he does when he eventually does play there. It's not like he's going to be asked to never come looking for the ball.

jeffwinger wrote:The combination of not going back to Gloucester at all and not starting for England.

But as I keep saying, that amounts to just one weekend. He was never going to play in the first rest week as he'd started the previous two games and could have started against France. Last weekend he probably should have got some game time I agree, but that still is just the one weekend - not gross mismanagement over the course of the whole tournament.

This was a more interesting excercise than I thought. My conclusions merely cement my long held belief that Rugby Union is the ultimate team game, in which the sum of the parts often exceeds the ability of the individual.

Though England are a better TEAM than Wales right now there are only 1 or 2 maybe 3 positions where I genuinely think English players are superior to the Welsh Counterparts, and that in the majority of positions the reverse is true.

I would take Launchbury, mainly because he is so young. I would take Flood who IMO is streets ahead of Farrell in terms of ability and Manu who while not as good as many would have it, is a lot better than Roberts. The rest of them are just guys doing their jobs in a well organised "in it together" team structure.

I would take Wales' back three over ours at the moment, but on the flipside I'd say Wood, Robshaw and Youngs are way ahead on current form.

Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

Too busy making "Grand Slam" t-shirts

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

What English media is that? Its the BBC not the EBC

Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing..

I didn't know that the Inglish meja picked the Italian team.

You learn summit new every day don'tcha?

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

A Welshman too lazy to search properly for the Italian line-up which the English were too arrogant to publish.

Telfer was right!!

Italy: Andrea Masi; Giovanbattista Venditti, Gonzalo Canale,
Gonzalo Garcia, Luke Mclean; Luciano Orquera, Edoardo Gori, Alberto De
Marchi, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Martin Castrogiovanni, Quintin Geldenhuys,
Joshua Furno, Alessandro Zanni, Robert Barbieri, Sergio Parisse (capt)



Replacements: Davide Giazzon, Andrea Lo Cicero, Lorenzo Cittadini,
Antonio Pavanello, Francesco Minto, Simone Favaro, Tobias Botes, Tommaso
Benvenuti

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

Ho hum. The 'English media' can't announce a team that hasn't been picked yet.

I don't really buy this suggestion that England are a better team made of lesser individuals than Wales. England v Wales man for man, I think you'd have to give a decent chance to Youngs/Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw, Youngs/Care, Farrell/Burns, Twelvetrees/Barritt, Tuilagi and Ashton. Maybe you wouldn't take them all (I'd pick most of the above), but any that aren't certainties are close calls. I expect to see more English than Welsh in the Lions squad which is a reasonable indicator of individual ability as well as team performance. In some positions I see England's top 2 players pushing Wales' first choice.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

A Welshman too lazy to search properly for the Italian line-up which the English were too arrogant to publish.

Telfer was right!!

Look at you being all quick witted; 2 wins and you're all Frankie Boyle comedians fEz

funnyExiledScot wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

A Welshman too lazy to search properly for the Italian line-up which the English were too arrogant to publish.

Telfer was right!!

I was about to say, are you so lazy you can't click on google and use non 'english' media sources?

Can't believe Italy have left Benvenuti out of the starting XV - utter madness!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Can't believe Italy have left Benvenuti out of the starting XV - utter madness!

Agreed.

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

As Italy announced their team 20 minutes AFTER you posted, I woulkd be surprise if you had found the lineup any where

LondonTiger wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Just been looking for the Italian team with no success. Are the English media really so arrogant that they do not feel it worth publishing.

As Italy announced their team 20 minutes AFTER you posted, I woulkd be surprise if you had found the lineup any where

Typical English. Arrogantly pointing out facts.

LondonTiger wrote:

100%beefy wrote:england's strength in depth is frankly alarming....they can draw on players from absolutely anywhere in the world!!

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone....."

Genesis 15:9

The Lord answered, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat, three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.”

Sound slike the Leicester pack to me...

100%beefy wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

100%beefy wrote:england's strength in depth is frankly alarming....they can draw on players from absolutely anywhere in the world!!

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone....."

Genesis 15:9

The Lord answered, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat, three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.”

Sound slike the Leicester pack to me...

Nah they live by Ezekiel 25:17

Jesus wept

100%beefy wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

100%beefy wrote:england's strength in depth is frankly alarming....they can draw on players from absolutely anywhere in the world!!

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone....."

Genesis 15:9

The Lord answered, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat, three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.”

Sound slike the Leicester pack to me...

Or a valley leisure centre with BarBQ

DaveM wrote:

damage_13 wrote:

DaveM wrote:SL has spoken recently about using Tuilagi as a wing, indeed I wouldn't be surprised if Twelvetrees game on and Tuilagi shifted to the wing.

No, NO NO NO.

Manu is NOT winger...

36 can play IC as Manu's preferred position is OC... that gives us a proper play maker in the centre so that we then drop 'Bunny-hop' Goode and move Brown to FB as he's far, far better in that position on attack.

But how do you know he isn't? SL sees him in training and thinks he's capable of playing there. I think it'll be interesting to see how he does when he eventually does play there. It's not like he's going to be asked to never come looking for the ball.

If I recall correctly he started out on the wing for Tigers and played rather effectively there, like a smaller faster version of his older bro but with better hands and a bit of vision.

His positioning is not great at wing and he tends to get frustrated and come flying out the line for the big hits. He is the best England OC for years. Too shove him onto the wing would be stupid unless required by injury and no other subs left. Billy played 15 at Bedford for a couple of games I recall and I'd rather but him or one of the scrum halfs to the wing.

Ideally Manu will come after 50 mins having helped England secure the win.

If there’s one thing that makes me think that Lancaster is a little way off the finished article yet it’s this idea of picking England’s 15 ‘best’ players and getting them on the pitch at the same time.

I’d like to see 2 wingers - playing on the wing, that is.
Our best FB – playing FB.
And can’t we find a no 8 that actually plays there – cuz they’re gonna have to be good to play opposite Parisse. How about one from Morgan, Haskell, Vunipola, Waldrom, Crane, Dowson??, Easter….. – anyone you fancy? ‘Course we could pick Lawes.
And then stick Manu on the wing.

I don't see the problem with Wood at 8 - he's played well there. I'm sure the back 3 will evolve over the next 12 months. I think May will be the left wing this time next year.

As for Tuilagi, he may well have had positional problems playing wing a couple of year back. but he's a far more experienced player now. I think it will be realy interesting to see how he goes there. If it doesn't work then it does work.