Will we see an AP side enter Administration?

Probably impossible, but could we leave all other discussions to other threads, park any baggage we have and just discuss this one?

Do London Welsh have the funds to survive to the end of the season?

I guess we would need to know who the owners are. The club went into administration in 2009, they came out of administration and into the hands of Saudex Global, headed by Neil Hollinshead. Unfortunately the money promised failed to materialise and it was alleged in court documents that Hollinshead “submitted forged documents and fake bank account details in order to continue his control of London Welsh and that he repeatedly lied to ensure that ownership of London Welsh was transferred over to him.” Ownership of London Welsh Rugby Football Club Ltd passed back to the original shareholders.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12888031

The owners must have funds as in the year to 30/6/11 the club lost £1.1m. 2012 accounts need to be filed by the end of this month and will make interesting reading
https://www.duedil.com/company/06446361/london-welsh-rugby-football-club-limited

Money is obviously tight this season. Even operating at well below the Salary Cap, they have seen a marked increase in expenses. They do not own their own ground, and have to pay rent to the Kassam owners. Attendances are the lowest in the AP, with 46,759 spectators over 9 matches. Money is obviously tight as some of the issues around Tyson Keats were caused by their need for the payments made for field the right number of EQ players. Last year this payment was £80k.

They do not have another home match until 14th April. Their legal bills continue to rise as they prepare their appeal to the points deduction, wages need to be paid – and quite possibly a VAT bill.

Can anyone tell me who is financing the club and how the losses are being covered?

At face value they certainly appear to be precariously poised LT. I find the trouble with a lot of these things, and not just at Welsh, is a lack of transparency around finances.

Interesting topic, their accounts will be interesting to see.

People I know involved in the amateur sides of LW have certainly been scathing about Hollinshead in the past I remember. I think since the administration the pro/amateur sides split officially so I don't think they know much more now.

Something about being near Richmond station leading to administration?

A timely question LT.

And let's ask the question how can we in any way hope to even guess what goes on under the the mirky waters of rugby finances?

Salary caps and marquee player payments would be interesting associated topics.

It would be interesting to see how clubs are doing financially. Most club make a loss or small profit.

But you would have to look at cashflow etc.

It would be interesting to see cashflow for each club rather then the profit and loss.

Brendan wrote:It would be interesting to see how clubs are doing financially. Most club make a loss or small profit.

But you would have to look at cashflow etc.

It would be interesting to see cashflow for each club rather then the profit and loss.

Not sure what cash flow has to do with it - just an audited B/S and P/L a/c would do - presented in standard format.

Plus openness in player wages and marquee player (although that won't happen) numbers by £50k salary band.

Wake me up when you go go

You can make a profit but spend money on capital items eg loan repayments.

Cash is king and if you don't have it doesn't matter what you make in profit if you don't pay bills you get taken to court to be liquidated

Cashflow issues have killed more companies that P&L problems.

Both are relevant to rugby clubs in the AP. Clubs with sugar daddies may have excellent cashflow - but serious losses and therefore are at risk of instant collapse should the benefactor disappear.

Tigers made a loss in the last financial year (to June 2012 I think). Cashflow was positive, so there is less of an issue.

Wasn't there a report that came out last year stating that last season only four clubs made a profit in the AP?

I too would be very interested to see the finances behind prefessional rugby in England, and also to see which clubs had decided to pay for a marquee player and how much cash they'd spent on that.

I would also hazard a guess that a gap is slowly spreading between the clubs who are reguarly in the play offs and the HC and so recieving extra's for that, and the clubs which only manage middle/bottom position each season.

yappysnap wrote:I would also hazard a guess that a gap is slowly spreading between the clubs who are reguarly in the play offs and the HC and so recieving extra's for that, and the clubs which only manage middle/bottom position each season.

I would love to know how Exeter will do with the extra money going to the Stadium ans so even though it won't affect the profit it will dry up money that could have gone to wages etc.

Sarries will should have more money (or less debt) when they move into their ground as less expenses for rent.

Brendan, they have proposed issuing Preference Shares to members and local HNWIs to fund stage 1. Plus we have recently acquired 'P' shares to the same tune as other prem teams, so that should increase income too

I would say the clubs in the biggest danger of administration are London Welsh,London Irish and London Wasps.

How much do sides get for progressing in the HC and getting home matches?

For example how much revenue could Saracens potentially generate from the quarter final clash vs Ulster?

i worry about Bath if our sugar daddy ever leaves, what we do have is a good fan base we just need a 12-14000 seater stadium to make the most of this.

sirtidychris at least you have your own stadium as it is. I don't know much about Bruce Craig. Is he a really passionate Bath fan or do you think he is fickle?

To be honest I am surprised there are not more wealthy investors in the AP.

Wasps are allegedly owned by the Ken Moss consortium. Can anyone shine any light on them? How much are they worth?

Chris as bad as the rec is it does hold 12,000 I think, as it is regularly full I think the plans is for a 18k?

beshocked I'd like to think that Bruce isnt that fickle, he was a Bath fan as a boy. Sarries are an interesting model, part owned by a long time fan and pat owned by overseas investors as I understand it?

Bathman in London yes that's right.

Interestingly enough I now think part of the reason for the investment of the South Africans is down to this deterioration of affairs in South Africa. The whole pistorius affair and police van dragging that man have really put a spotlight on South Africa.

Nigel Wray is the chairman, he's basically the face of Saracens. The South Africans very much stay in the background.

beshocked wrote:I would say the clubs in the biggest danger of administration are London Welsh,London Irish and London Wasps.

How much do sides get for progressing in the HC and getting home matches?

For example how much revenue could Saracens potentially generate from the quarter final clash vs Ulster?

depends if they host in their own stadium (in which case they have to share 50/50 with ulster the tickets proceeds) or another venue (in which case they get 70% of such proceeds). old trick used by stade toulousain many times when they used to host game in the other Toulouse stadium (bigger as well) and get 600-700 k€ of revenue.

Has that issue been resolved yet - About Sarries getting approval ffrom ERC or their new stadium to host their 1/4 final tie?

propdavid london the game is happening at twickenham.

whocares the game is at Twickenham so you are saying Saracens will get more?

To be fair a far bigger capacity means that Ulster should get bigger tickets proceeds anyway even with a smaller %.

I have heard that Ulster are trying to make Twickenham their home which basically means there could be a lot of Ulster fans. I went to the HC final and a lot of Ulster fans made the trip.

I actually expect there could be quite a few Munster fans too because they'll be there that weekend for the Quins game.

Fingers crossed there is a large attendance. That would boost revenues all round.

Ah - thats going to be a fantastic weekend of Rugby.
Say what you will - the Irish supporters are great.
I was at the H-Cup final between Saints and Munster @ Twickers way back (think it was 2000) and it was one of the best match atmospheres I've ever experienced at HQ.

Beshocked, Saracens will get a bigger share of the revenue (not sure if it's 65 or 70% though) as I believe they would have to pay the RFU more than couple of pennies for the use of Twickenham and like you said if the stadium is full it's a win/win for both teams. those extra games in a season make a big difference in a club budget for sure.

Hhhmm makes me wonder if Quins did the right thing keeping it at the Stoop.

Beshocked were any Sarries fans upset that it's at Twickenham and not your own ground? I know a lot of Quins fans would have gone bat Poopie if the semi was moved from the Stoop no matter how much money the club could get as a lot of season ticket holders and long term fans love The Stoop.

I know money is tight but will Sarries ulster beat the quarterfinal record.

Games held at HQ seem to get a good turnout regardless of teams which I think shows the love of rugby in london.

Also us Irish love to support another Irish team if we can support our own so definately munster fans will be there.

I don't think Sarries have more then 10,000 fans so a lot of Irish fans would need to come over to beat that record

yappysnap wrote:I don't think Sarries have more then 10,000 fans so a lot of Irish fans would need to come over to beat that record

Ouch!!!

Sarries have shown that they can attract a decent crowd for one-off big events. After all a fair few people attended the Sarries/Quins match at Wembley last season.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17526130

That was over 28,000 more fans than attended the current HEC 1/4 final record holder:
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/14168.php


However the 83k+ fans who went to Wembley were able to get cut price tickets. Prices are a tough dearer for the Ulster Match:
https://www.eticketing.co.uk/saracens/details/event.aspx?itemref=1209

Mind with the travelling support expected, and possibility of Munster fans attending both matches we should expect the record UK 1/4 final attendance to be broken:
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/16447.php

I'll hold my hands up and say I couldn't resist a little dig.

Sarries do usually do very well out of one off games, it'll be interesting to see if now that they have their own ground more of these one off fans come back for more.

Yappysnap personally I don't think too many Saracens fans will be upset. The opportunity to get more rugby fans for a bigger game is a big plus in my opinion

Saracens don't have many "fans" that's the problem. Lots of people who have a casual interest in the team though.

I think the casuals could come in their droves though, certainly if the prices went down.

As Londontiger says Saracens do get support for these big one off games though.

I do think the Irish will come in significant numbers as they did at the final last season.

To be fair the more Irish fans the better, Saracens seem to thrive the more hostile the environment, the players will love it if they're cast as the underdogs here.