Sky & The Rabo

First topic message reminder :

From the Guardian - would be good news for the league potentially providing much needed exposure and finance


'Sky is looking for ways to fill the hole left by the loss of Aviva Premiership matches to BT Vision from next season.

It has already been hoovering up international rights this year, adding Ireland, France and Italy to their autumn international package next year along with England, but that only amounts to a month of action.

Sky is in talks with the Celtic unions about securing the exclusive rights to the RaboDirect Pro 12, which are up for tender for the 2014-15 season onwards. As well as injecting money into the tournament, Sky could also help in its projection, helping cut the lag with the Premiership.

Sorting out the kick-off times would be a start. Friday and Saturday nights and the occasional Sunday have not proved popular in Wales where the average crowd is around 8,000.'

HammerofThunor wrote:

123456789 wrote:I think it would be fantastic if they could convince SKY to sign a deal especially if it's anywhere near a large as the Aviva premiership deal, BT have agreed £152million pounds for the Aviva premiership. I think the Rabo should be looking for around £100million pounds which would give a large amount of money for each nation, it would also allow coverage in English and with a lot of promotion. It would also allow for Rugby to be shown in bars and pubs.

That's for the premiership and English European games. I think sky and ESPN combined was about £54M for about 3 games a week for three years. I think £100M is asking a bit much unless it's for at least 6 years

If SKY has exclusivity then I'd say the deal will be worth about £50m over 3 years maximum. More likely it'll be around £30m. I'd say they get feck all money at the moment for the coverage. Can't see it being over £50m and certainly not near £100m. In 5 or 6 seasons I could see it heading that way but not now unless sky are going t make big changes. .

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

123456789 wrote:I think it would be fantastic if they could convince SKY to sign a deal especially if it's anywhere near a large as the Aviva premiership deal, BT have agreed £152million pounds for the Aviva premiership. I think the Rabo should be looking for around £100million pounds which would give a large amount of money for each nation, it would also allow coverage in English and with a lot of promotion. It would also allow for Rugby to be shown in bars and pubs.

That's for the premiership and English European games. I think sky and ESPN combined was about £54M for about 3 games a week for three years. I think £100M is asking a bit much unless it's for at least 6 years

If SKY has exclusivity then I'd say the deal will be worth about £50m over 3 years maximum. More likely it'll be around £30m. I'd say they get feck all money at the moment for the coverage. Can't see it being over £50m and certainly not near £100m. In 5 or 6 seasons I could see it heading that way but not now unless sky are going t make big changes. .

Depends how many games, etc. Not sure how much sky game for the primiership but if Sentana/ESPN had more games you'd expect they gave at least the same if not more. So Sky probably only gave about £25M over the 3 years but that was only 1 game a weekend (roughtly). I'm not sure if this was because Sky didn't want that many games, weren't willing to pay what the PRL wanted for more games or the PRL limited the number of games sold. It's generally quite difficult to get details on these things. I'm mean, how much does BBC currently give the PRO12 unions? And RTE?

Thunor, I remember an interview with Roger Lewis on BBC 2 Wales before the Ospreys and Scarlets game on Boxing day about two years ago, and he said then that between the BBC and S4C the regions get the equivelent to ten thousand people through the gates in money off the T.V companies.

If it means more revenue for the rabo team then I'm all for it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:If it means more revenue for the rabo team then I'm all for it.

It should mean more money for the unions, but then it is down to them to divide it all up etc. The actual Rabo sides may see very little of a gain from it.

LordDowlais wrote:Thunor, I remember an interview with Roger Lewis on BBC 2 Wales before the Ospreys and Scarlets game on Boxing day about two years ago, and he said then that between the BBC and S4C the regions get the equivelent to ten thousand people through the gates in money off the T.V companies.

To every game or a one off? I'd assume every game. 11 home games so that's 440000 people. Now much per ticket? £20? That would be £10M per year or £30M over three years. So £2.5M per region per year. Not bad considering premiership teams get £1.4M per team per year (roughly). Even if the average ticket is £10 it's still £1.25M per year (unless my maths is way off)

Wish I could get rugby at the cheap prices above. For me and other half the Blues season tickets are £3,000 a year [ 6 x £500]. This includes meals and programmes. Wales rugby tickets say 9 games x 2 x £80 = £1,440. Trips to 6 nations and H Cup in Europe say 3 a year at £900 = £2,700 so total £7,140

lauriehow wrote:Wish I could get rugby at the cheap prices above. For me and other half the Blues season tickets are £3,000 a year [ 6 x £500]. This includes meals and programmes. Wales rugby tickets say 9 games x 2 x £80 = £1,440. Trips to 6 nations and H Cup in Europe say 3 a year at £900 = £2,700 so total £7,140

Jesus that is being commited.

With Sky promoting the Pro 12, you can be sure that its profile will be raised.

Look what SKY have done for the football premier League, and the H-cup. Nobody can promote an event like SKY can.

You may say that its profile will be lower away from Free to air TV, but instead they will have someone advertising the events. Derbies will become much biger events.

Think of the 1872 cup games, non rugby supports in Glasgow and Edinburgh are prob not even aware when they are on, with SKY you can be sure that a lot more people will be aware the games are on, and it will be hyped up as a big event (Glasgow V Edinburgh pride at stake), more people will then also become intrested in attending.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

lauriehow wrote:Wish I could get rugby at the cheap prices above. For me and other half the Blues season tickets are £3,000 a year [ 6 x £500]. This includes meals and programmes. Wales rugby tickets say 9 games x 2 x £80 = £1,440. Trips to 6 nations and H Cup in Europe say 3 a year at £900 = £2,700 so total £7,140

Jesus that is being commited.

I know someone who has been to EVERY Leinster and Ireland game, home AND AWAY, for the last 5 years.
That's being committed. (and having enough dough and no family commitments)

We have done every 6 nations the last 3 years and have only missed one game at M-field, one in Paris and one at Twickenham, since the start of the 2005 season. I have never yet seen a Welsh team lose when I have been to Twickenham, over the period 1970 to 2012 - with a big gap in the middle! [Must be the lucky mascot].

We always miss a few Blues games since we are away on trips and also holidays eg at Christmas, and in Sept. We do them 3-4 times a year. It helps to be a very full-time tax consultant with working partner, also both getting pensions, state and private. This weekend we go to Venice to see Treviso v Blues and sight-see, staying 3 nights. I book flights a year in advance at the cheapest prices, use club-card points etc . Anyone know the 6 Nations dates for 2014?

lauriehow wrote:We have done every 6 nations the last 3 years and have only missed one game at M-field, one in Paris and one at Twickenham, since the start of the 2005 season. I have never yet seen a Welsh team lose when I have been to Twickenham, over the period 1970 to 2012 - with a big gap in the middle! [Must be the lucky mascot].

We always miss a few Blues games since we are away on trips and also holidays eg at Christmas, and in Sept. We do them 3-4 times a year. It helps to be a very full-time tax consultant with working partner, also both getting pensions, state and private. This weekend we go to Venice to see Treviso v Blues and sight-see, staying 3 nights. I book flights a year in advance at the cheapest prices, use club-card points etc . Anyone know the 6 Nations dates for 2014?

I don't know but you're not welcome in England next season

We're missing an important point wrt what sky would pay.

If there is no HEC rugby then the Rabo league would be worth a lot more money to sky. The teams would be able to put out stronger teams all year round and when internationals are on they don't have to play which further helps.

HammerofThunor wrote:

lauriehow wrote:We have done every 6 nations the last 3 years and have only missed one game at M-field, one in Paris and one at Twickenham, since the start of the 2005 season. I have never yet seen a Welsh team lose when I have been to Twickenham, over the period 1970 to 2012 - with a big gap in the middle! [Must be the lucky mascot].

We always miss a few Blues games since we are away on trips and also holidays eg at Christmas, and in Sept. We do them 3-4 times a year. It helps to be a very full-time tax consultant with working partner, also both getting pensions, state and private. This weekend we go to Venice to see Treviso v Blues and sight-see, staying 3 nights. I book flights a year in advance at the cheapest prices, use club-card points etc . Anyone know the 6 Nations dates for 2014?

I don't know but you're not welcome in England next season

Don't listen to him Laurie, we'll muster up the fixture list for you ASAP!!!

profitius wrote:We're missing an important point wrt what sky would pay.

If there is no HEC rugby then the Rabo league would be worth a lot more money to sky. The teams would be able to put out stronger teams all year round and when internationals are on they don't have to play which further helps.

Your right, especially with Skies marketting nous, it would be the european league, and attract a far larger audience, especially those from England who wouldn't normally watch!! Sky would offer better production values etc too, making the league more prestigious.

The truth is sky will not throw any more money at the Rabo than is needed. After all they only really need to outbid the beeb by a few quid.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The truth is sky will not throw any more money at the Rabo than is needed. After all they only really need to outbid the beeb by a few quid.

It won't be a mega bucks deal but if sky want exclusive rights then they have to pay for that. It wouldn't be worth the rabo teams while agreeing to go on sky if all they were getting would be a small increase. Less people can view the matches so things like sponsorship would be effected as well as the general promotion of rugby having it on free to air TV.

What'll happen is sky will offer a decent deal which the rabo teams will take. Sky's promotion of the league will go into overdrive in the next few seasons boosting the league which will then make it more valuable. Viewing and attendance figures are up again this season so the steady growth continues.

I see where your coming from but with the current wru issues I think sky would be causious about taking a punt on a league with 14 teams when only about 5 of them will be marketable by the time they get the tv rights. So because of that I worry their offer may be considerably less than what their currently forking out for the Jeff.

LordDowlais wrote:Sky can have what they want, but what they cannot do is take it off S4C, rugby is the national sport in Wales and S4C is the national Welsh channel and the Welsh assembly has made sure that the national sport is free to everyone, this is why S4C have the HC highlights every weekend when it is on, if Sky want to take all Welsh rugby as a whole it will cost them, but I think because of some parlimentry law, Welsh rugby will always be allowed on S4C, no matter who owns the rights to it.

You are right. The assembly made our national sport free to Wales. It was what the people wanted.

It now looks like the people have changed their minds.

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sky can have what they want, but what they cannot do is take it off S4C, rugby is the national sport in Wales and S4C is the national Welsh channel and the Welsh assembly has made sure that the national sport is free to everyone, this is why S4C have the HC highlights every weekend when it is on, if Sky want to take all Welsh rugby as a whole it will cost them, but I think because of some parlimentry law, Welsh rugby will always be allowed on S4C, no matter who owns the rights to it.

You are right. The assembly made our national sport free to Wales. It was what the people wanted.

It now looks like the people have changed their minds.

That only applies to Welsh internationals in the 6 nations though. Which is one of the 'crown jewel events' like FA Cup final or Wimbledon. That's why some Welsh games like tours end up on Sky anyway. It doesn't apply to club rugby or regional rugby.

ITV have the English HEC highlights. Nothing to do with protection, just that Sky have the rights to live full games. If they were protected then S4C would have all of the Welsh HEC games live, and they don't.

The only full games protected by law are the Welsh home games in the 6 nations and the Rugby World Cup. I've got a feeling the 6 nations highlights are also protected. I don't think the Welsh assembly has the power to control the protection of TV rights. Of course if they give WRU money they could make this a condition of the funding (which is probably the most sensible way doing it, basically the government suppliment the reduced funding due to limiting competition).

Anyone know how much Sky pays for the Super rugby coverage?

I hope this isn't true.

To be honest I'd rather watch Championship rugby than the Rabo.

I've been having a look at the rugby TV deals floating about and trying to find out what the regions get currently from the BBC/S4C etc, and what a potential SKY tv deal might be worth.

From the 2010-11 season Sky and Setanta had a deal with the Guiness Premiership Teams. This deal was worth £54m over 3 years. So doing basic maths.
£54m / 3 years = £18m a season
£18m / 12 competing teams = £1.5m per club, per season.

Now the Aviva Premiership teams have agreed a £152m, 5 year deal with BT Vision.
£152m x 5 years = £30.4m a season
£30.4m / 12 competing teams = £2,533,333.33
£2.5m per club, per season

Basically it means the English teams will be able to up their salary cap by £1m a season to £5.5m, exclusing their marque player.

In 2011 the Rugby League, Super League signed a 5 year deal with Sky, until 2016. Worth £90m.
£90m / 5 years = £18m per season
£18m per season / 14 competing teams = £1,285,714.28 per competing team.
£1.2m per club, per season

To be hoest I'd say we're looking at about a £40-60 million deal over 3 years.

Rugby is becoming more popular hence why BT deal is bigger than old 2010 sky deal.

The Pro 12 would be more popular in the British and Irish Isles (area SKY covers) than rugby league. Athough Super league does have a higher AVG attendance, but I feel a year or two on sky could chance this. So I'd say it would be a similar deal, with Pro 12 for 3 years,

BT deal you have to remember contains european money that will not go to the Jeff clubs, £152 million but maybe £100 is for Jeff £52million goes into european pot, meaning Jeff clubs get
£1.66 million a year per club, only £0.16 a year extra each?

Shifty wrote:I've been having a look at the rugby TV deals floating about and trying to find out what the regions get currently from the BBC/S4C etc, and what a potential SKY tv deal might be worth.

From the 2010-11 season Sky and Setanta had a deal with the Guiness Premiership Teams. This deal was worth £54m over 3 years. So doing basic maths.
£54m / 3 years = £18m a season
£18m / 12 competing teams = £1.5m per club, per season.

Now the Aviva Premiership teams have agreed a £152m, 5 year deal with BT Vision.
£152m x 5 years = £30.4m a season
£30.4m / 12 competing teams = £2,533,333.33
£2.5m per club, per season

Basically it means the English teams will be able to up their salary cap by £1m a season to £5.5m, exclusing their marque player.

In 2011 the Rugby League, Super League signed a 5 year deal with Sky, until 2016. Worth £90m.
£90m / 5 years = £18m per season
£18m per season / 14 competing teams = £1,285,714.28 per competing team.
£1.2m per club, per season

I thought the BT deal was for 4 years league and 3 years Europe? One of the papers suggested the English clubs get about £8.5M from ERC at the moment (per season). So current equivalent to the BT deal is
(3x8.5 + 4x18) = 25.5 + 68 = £93.5M

But of course the European money is going into pot and I'd doubt the clubs would get what they put in. But anything up to £58.5M being lost to the other parties would see them better off.



I think

I think the Rabo teams should expect to get at least €750,000 per team per year. That would mean €45m over 5 years or €27m over 3 years minimum.

Like Kingshu, I think it will be €40m-60m over 3 years. That would make it about €1.1m-1.66m per team per year. Its more complex than that because there'll be money for finishing higher and also the Italians are in the mix etc. Sky need rugby union especially if they lose more HEC rights. This puts the Rabo teams in a position of strength. Losing rugby on free to air Tv will be a big blow though.

I wouldn't underestimate the popularity of super league up north. Hull, a small ~250000 city in dire economic straights supports two rugby league teams that got an average 20000 attendance combined when I last looked. Yorkshire has a larger population than Wales and that's not including Manchester and the Lancashire region.

Does anybody have any figures on how much the BBC, RTE, etc give for pro12 at the moment?

Also, would this mean the PRO12 unions would pool their TV money instead of each keeping their own?

It's interesting but the Rabo teams have basically been told to expect a cut in the money they get off the BBC and S4C anyway.

BBC Wales has had it's budget cut over 16% up until 2016.

While S4C's funding is being cut from £102m this year to £75m, so clearly that's going to have a bearing. S4C is also being brought under the BBC's umbrella. So any S4C money will be covered by the BBC in the future.