England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

[quote="robbo277"]My take on things.

[Centres

Tuilagi has been our stand-out back recently, and deservedly tours with the Lions. Which does force us to look at our options.

Twelvetrees and Barritt will both be vying for the 12 shirt, and neither will want to miss the tour and lose ground. They could even play together as they did against Scotland and Ireland at the start of the Six Nations.

For me Tomkins is the one I'd like to look at. I think he's had a good season at Sarries. Trinder is the 4th centre I'd take.

It's tough to know what the combination to start would be. I was leaning towards Twelvetrees and Tomkins, and I'd probably give that combination the nod at Twickenham for the Barbarians game.

Test starters: Twelvetrees, Tomkins
Also tour: Barritt, Trinder

One player no one has mentioned, Luther Burrell, big, quick, very good hands, can cover wing, defensively sound and is scoring a try a game for Saints. He made tehe squad before being injured . His come back has co-incided with a Saints revival. He is like another Manu, but taller and quicker, he can pass as well. 36 at 12 with LB outside will cause defenses a lot of problems, LB at 12 with Joseph or Lowe outside the same. I am not sure if any of th eother options, Tompkins excepted, can offer all the things LB does.

In 5 years of pro rugby before this season Burrell has hardly set the world alight. Even this season he has blown hot and cold. Needless to say I am not convinced.

He has been mentioned numerous time on this thread,has to nail down a place at saints first.
I like tom casson .......as a player for the future.

Barritt should be given the summer off...hes had a big season, and we know what he brings.

So really its out of:

12- Twelvetrees, Allen, Banahan, Turner Hall,

13 - Lowe, Joseph, Trinder, Daly (seemingly moving to 15), Tomkins

Twelvetrees is the obvious at 12...but im torn between Tomkins and Lowe at 13. This is a great chance to see them both in a tough test situation.

I think JTH time has been and gone,I don't think he has developed as had been hoped over the last 3 years.
I wouldn't give up on banana yet but who would be he best paired with.

Lowe has been indifferent this season.....not near his best yet.
At the moment Tompkins must be ahead but there is still a final round of prem matches that could change opinions.

Please - not Banahan, we've been there and its not worked.
Joseph appears to have gone off the boil - whats happened there?

Eastmond please Mr Lancaster.

I'd still consider Daly at 13, and not 15. We've got an abundance of 15s, and one more will probably only cause SL to play more FBs on the wing to accomodate them.

I'd take:

Twelvetrees, Tomkins, Lowe, and Joseph.

I think JTH's time has well and truly gone. Solid club player, but he does nothing to a really high standard- he's an average all-rounder in my opinion, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

My long term squad, all players fit and available:

First team:
Corbisiero, Youngs/Hartley, Cole
Launchbury, Attwood
Croft, Wood (C), Morgan
Youngs, Burns
Twelvetrees, Tuilagi,
May, Foden, Ashton

Bench:
Hartley/Youngs, Marler, Wilson, Lawes, Robshaw, Care, Farrell, Brown

Also in EPS:
Lindsay, Vunipola, Slater, Kvesic, Vunipola, Robson/Spencer, Ford, Tompkins/Lowe/Trinder, Wade

So for Argentina I'd try and get as close to that as possible, with the exception of the Lions tourists and a few who could do with a rest (Robshaw, Launchbury, Ashton). Bring in some back up who should also be there or there abouts (Webber, Mullan, Fraser, Allen) plus some more experienced halfbacks to cover Care and Burns for this tour as Spencer, Robson and Ford are not yet ready. Then we've got some serious talent moving forward together. And yes, Barritt and Parling are deliberate exclusions.

Who would run your line-out?wood or launchbury?

Long term, Croft. In Argentina either Wood or Attwood.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Should we start a poll if Callum Clark will be taken?

Considering how highly Lancaster rates him I would be quite surprised if he wasn't in the squad. Not that I'd have him there on rugby terms myself. Given he was a second row for the last EPS he might as well be picked as a FH for all the likelihood of him playing there, Lancaster could even take him as a physio on the grounds that he gives good foot rubs - would be as logical a rugby decision as the second row claim!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10042685/Tom-Wood-to-replace-Chris-Robshaw-as-England-captain-for-tour-of-Argentina.html

The Telegraph named all the England teams correctly the day before each announcement during the Six Nations, so I'd guess this is fairly accurate. Not a full squad but many of the major questions answered.

Wood captain. Robshaw, Ashton and Flood rested (or dropped however you want to look at it). Burns and Ford at 10. May, Wade and Yarde on the wings. I'm hoping Barritt will be left at home as well to give others a chance in the centre.

Interesting article jeff. From the sounds of that the squad will look something like below if it's accurate:

Props - Corbs, Marler, Wilson, Thomas and PDJ or Knight

Hookers - Webber, Gray and hopefully Lindsay but Buchanan or even Paice could be preffered

Locks - Launchberry, Lawes, Slater, Atwood - Slater may not be fit however

Flankers - Wood, Kvesic, Fraser, Haskell

Number 8's - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Care, L Dickson, Simpson - I'd take Wigglesworth over Dickson

Fly half - Burns, Ford - I wouldn't rest Flood personally

Centre - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tomkins, Daly

Wings - Wade, May, Yarde

Full back - Brown, Goode, Foden

That's a 33 man squad with a 18 - 15 forwards backs split which seems realistic. It isn't necessarily what I'd go for but judging by the articles predictions and Lancaster's selection tendencies that's what I'd predict. Were we to take a 35 man squad I'd like to add Lowe to the centres and Fearns or Tom Johnson to the flankers but if another player made that squad I'd expect it to be Calum Clark as Lancaster's room mate.

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Lawes 5.Launchberry 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Care 10.Burns 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Barritt 14.Wade 15.Goode
16.Gray 17.Corbs 18.Thomas 19.Slater 20.Haskell 21.Dickson 22.Ford 23.Brown

The above is again not what I'd pick but what I think Lancaster may go for.

Anyone know what time the squad annoucement is today?

Just seen, it is 2.30 for anyone else that is interested!

2.30...pah they could have had the curtesy to make it a morning announcement...or maybe they're holding off the bad news...boring dull squad with all the flair players nowhere in sight...

That's what I was thinking GF! I can't wait until then! Although, if the Telegraph article above has any truth in it, we could be in for a pleasant surprise!

Like it Carlos - I would be happy with that team.
Although I'd swap Goode for Brown.

Youve got Corbs in there twice, I suspect that would be Marler on the bench.
Not sure that Haskell needs to be there, perhaps Billy Vaunipola for impact off the bench.

king_carlos wrote:
Hookers - Webber, Gray and hopefully Lindsay but Buchanan or even Paice could be preffered

Buchanan has overtaken Gray at Quins and is bigger and more physical. Gray is a very good player and makes very few mistakes, but if Lancaster is looking at the players who could be top drawer by 2015 then I'd be surprised to see Gray going ahead of Buchanan.

Incidentally when did Haskell last have some time off? He should probably be left behind with Robshaw

Han't he effectively had the last two months off?

but yeah been a while since he had any proper down time

Hadn't realised he's been injured as, apart from typing Christian Wade's name into youtube repeatedly, I haven't really been watching Wasps recently. Prior to that I don't think he's really had a break since 2010 though, which includes playing for clubs in four countries.

Personally I think Haskell is surplus to requirements anyway.

My 6s would be Robshaw and Wood.

7s - Ksevic and Fraser.

No 8s - Morgan and Vunipola

Robshaw is almost certainly staying behind though.

Will Fraser be fit? I'd have him there if so, but if not then Luke Wallace has been in great form.

thomh I just don't particularly rate Haskell very highly. Wasn't impressed with him in the 6 nations and he's hardly been tearing up trees in the AP.

Not sure if Fraser will be fit. As you say Wallace would be a good replacement if Fraser misses out.

Shame for Fraser if injury rules him out because he's had a good season.

You are going to have 2 potentially world class 8s available for the future. Ben Morgan and Billy Vunipola, two absolute giants. Ireland could really do with a player of that calibre.

If you had a 7 with superhuman workrate, imagine seeing them both at 6 and 8!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You are going to have 2 potentially world class 8s available for the future. Ben Morgan and Billy Vunipola, two absolute giants. Ireland could really do with a player of that calibre.

If you had a 7 with superhuman workrate, imagine seeing them both at 6 and 8!

We already have one of those, apparently that makes him not specialised enough

England summer 2013 squad

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

No Danny Care- "interesting" call by Lancaster. Does he think he'll get called up for the Lions pre-Tour? Or has he dropped him?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You are going to have 2 potentially world class 8s available for the future. Ben Morgan and Billy Vunipola, two absolute giants. Ireland could really do with a player of that calibre.

If you had a 7 with superhuman workrate, imagine seeing them both at 6 and 8!

I agree with you that Morgan and B.Vunipola are two potentially very good players but they do have their flaws. They are big ball carriers but in terms of overall workrate in my opinion would not be able to function in a backrow together unless they they develop their games. Even if they had Mccaw at 7!

B.Vunipola's move to Saracens might well help him hone his breakdown abilities,workrate and defence if not his ball carrying skills. His brother's development certainly hasn't been harmed.

Ok its pretty much as expected...HOWEVER

Does Callum Clark have dodgy photos of Stuart....EH???!!!
David Paice!!!!! and Tom Johnson!!!

Is that just one stand off, Burns?

My point was that even with a player like Robshaw, having Vunipola and Morgan in the same back row would be heavily lacking in other aspects of the game. Though it would be very fun to watch these two wreck havoc on the field.

ChequeredJersey wrote:No Danny Care- "interesting" call by Lancaster. Does he think he'll get called up for the Lions pre-Tour? Or has he dropped him?

Players rested include Chris Robshaw, Danny Care (both Harlequins), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt and Chris Ashton (both Saracens).

Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers) and James Haskell (London Wasps) were not considered on medical grounds.

LondonTiger wrote:Is that just one stand off, Burns?

Haven't you heard, it's vital NOT to bring flyhalfs or players comfortable at fly-half on SH tours, apparently. Not sure why...

Pleasantly surprised by that team, I was expecting SL to be more conservative in his selection. Slightly surprised by the lack of half backs in the squad and I presume Goode, 36, Wigglesworth & Eastmond are all being considered as back up to Burns.

Is Fraser still injured, as I would have expected him to make the squad.

I know he's served his sentence and I should forgive and forget, but it really does make my blood boil to see Calum Clark anywhere near a rugby pitch, let alone an England shirt. I may be deeply bias, but I'd also say Tom Savage deserves to be there ahead of Clark. He too can cover lock and 6 and is far more of a model player.

As suspected Fraser must be injured. There's no way he would be left if fit surely?

Chequeredjersey he's probably been told by Lancaster to have a rest.

The players I expecting are being rested - Care,Barritt,Ashton,Haskell,Robshaw,Flood


I would have had Lowe in there instead of Joseph.

jelly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:No Danny Care- "interesting" call by Lancaster. Does he think he'll get called up for the Lions pre-Tour? Or has he dropped him?

Players rested include Chris Robshaw, Danny Care (both Harlequins), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt and Chris Ashton (both Saracens).

Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers) and James Haskell (London Wasps) were not considered on medical grounds.

Don't think they'll enjoy being rested. Also don't think it is a wise idea (well, resting Chris and Flood and dropping Ashton probably is, but we might need Barritt and Danny and surely if you are trying new backline players you want to see how they fit into a working backline?!)

Also, still 3 fullbacks (plus others who can play there), so no resting THOSE players...

Makes me worried we will see Brown on the wing again

Care hasn't played any rugby for England- why would he need to be rested?

First impressions are good. There are some names that I would question though -
Calum Clark, PDJ, Tom Johnson, David Paice, Wigglesworth, Yarde.

Would have liked to see -
Wallace, Trinder, Sharples, maybe Rupert Harden,

Only 1 stand off!

On paper the team could look quite good though - I would like to see -
Corbis, Webber, Wilson
Launchbury, Slater,
Wood, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
Freddie Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tompkins
May
Brown

HongKongCherry wrote:Pleasantly surprised by that team, I was expecting SL to be more conservative in his selection. Slightly surprised by the lack of half backs in the squad and I presume Goode, 36, Wigglesworth & Eastmond are all being considered as back up to Burns.

Is Fraser still injured, as I would have expected him to make the squad.

I know he's served his sentence and I should forgive and forget, but it really does make my blood boil to see Calum Clark anywhere near a rugby pitch, let alone an England shirt. I may be deeply bias, but I'd also say Tom Savage deserves to be there ahead of Clark. He too can cover lock and 6 and is far more of a model player.

+1

trying not to be bitter about a lot of things coming up this summer

Very harsh on Will Fraser to be honest.

Why Paice continues to be selected I will never, ever, ever, ever know. God knows about Clark. I didn't hear his name called once in the match at the weekend. What is he doing there?

Good to see Attwood and Slater in there, some real muscle. Shame on Kitchener.

Don't know what else Matt Garvey has to do? Strange that he can't even make a weakened squad.

Prop David,

I expect that to be the team...and think its pretty good actually....bit more oomph in the Forwards...bit more guile in the backs....

Beshocked, is Fraser injured still?

Calum Clarke?! FFS!

Generally though that squad could be a lot worse, plenty of younger players as well as those being rewarded for a decent season with their clubs.

3 FBs and only 1 FH is interesting though.

I think we may aswell forget about Garvey now. Maybe Clark has the photos of what happened in the changing rooms with Garvey at half time of that Saxons game.

Had a feeling he would pick paice,he is wrong to but there you go.Good to see eastmond get a chance sooner rather than later.No Danny care is a surprise as is the inclusion of strettle.
No frontline back up fly-half is a surprise looks like 12trees or goode as back up,neither have played there in a while,what happens if we lose ford.
I'm happy for wigglresworth who deserves a chance.
Clark got the call from his 'friend' but no daly?