Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

by red_stag Mon 25 Mar 2013, 12:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

by SecretFly Thu 13 Jun 2013, 4:27 pm

I felt like saying the same thing. Just what exactly are the issues with that side?

And as Gibbo says, let's not forget that Mr Observer might be having more of an input into the slections now behind the scenes.

by Standulstermen Thu 13 Jun 2013, 4:40 pm

Strauss retained after last week. No sherry in the squad despite being included ahead of Cronin.
No marmion in the squad. The retention of boss despite a shocking display.
Mike Ross at tight head. Developing players???
I don't see the point dropping kilcoyne for an over 30 yr old in court in a game like this
Both locks could/should have been dropped but at least they retained the younger player.
TOD and McLaughlin are good calls
No issue with the back three
Total lack of pace/subtlety in the centre
I don't agree with the madigan call but I don't mind it.

I will add once again the caveat that illness may have forced their hand

by **Notch** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 5:09 pm

The big issue is Downey- I can only assume that Olding is ill. Think they bottled it unless Jackson was also ill. They've rotated and given everyone a shot, right policy, but bottled it in the halfbacks. Hopefully they give the two on the bench the second half.

by **profitius** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 5:19 pm

On another forum a poster has said that Sherry and Olding have been hit hard by the bug and Madigan also had it so he might not be 100%.

Pity that Sherry and Olding are out because they are two I was looking forward to seeing.

Downey deserves a cap. He is predictable but solid.

by **Notch** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 5:20 pm

ME-109 wrote:
red_stag wrote:I don't think it matters whether Darcy retires or not. Marshall is a better player now.

Really. Darcy played really well towards the end of the season...not sure its as clear cut

I actually agree, Marshall lacks nous. Its amusing to me that Jackson is the most under fire of the young Ulster players breaking through because Paddy Jackson is the only one that I feel is mature enough in his game to command a definite starting place for Ulster. Well, Gilroy would in 90% of teams too to be fair. More his competition is his issue with starting, but Marshall, Olding and Henderson have areas of their game they need to work on.

D'Arcy-BOD is still our best centre partnership, but there's no point leaving Marshall out for such a short term gain.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Weird I thought Kiss said Jackson would get a game,this looks like Kiss is scared of losing and just picked what is close to his best team.It won't make much difference who plays if he doesn't have a serious rethink about our plan of attack.

No he's rotated where possible- last week was much closer to a strongest team on paper. I feel they've rotated in most of the positions where there is any doubt and thats what they should be doing. This tour should always have been about establishng the pecking order for when the Lions come back and giving every single player on tour a start (bar a 2, a 3 and a 9) Henderson and Oldings absence from the bench is disappointing- I'm inferring its illness related. But seeing the same halfback combination and tighthead is the most disappointing. I really hope we see Hagan, Marshall and Jackson for 40 minutes.

Finally massive congrats to Andrew Trimble on his 50th cap for Ireland and James Downey on his 1st.

by **Notch** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 5:22 pm

profitius wrote:On another forum a poster has said that Sherry and Olding have been hit hard by the bug and Madigan also had it so he might not be 100%.

Pity that Sherry and Olding are out because they are two I was looking forward to seeing.

Downey deserves a cap. He is predictable but solid.

Makes 10 decision even more disappointing! I assumed it was the other way around. What about Hagan? Having Mike Ross start both tests has certainly helped us address our tighthead problem Rolling Eyes

by Standulstermen Thu 13 Jun 2013, 5:25 pm

If those two are down that explains it to an extent. Fair enough. Still the lack of marmion and Ross being retained is disappointing.

by Gibson Thu 13 Jun 2013, 6:02 pm

Notch wrote:
profitius wrote:On another forum a poster has said that Sherry and Olding have been hit hard by the bug and Madigan also had it so he might not be 100%.

Pity that Sherry and Olding are out because they are two I was looking forward to seeing.

Downey deserves a cap. He is predictable but solid.

Makes 10 decision even more disappointing! I assumed it was the other way around. What about Hagan? Having Mike Ross start both tests has certainly helped us address our tighthead problem

On the button there.

And Downey is a waste of time on a tour like this. Where's Macken?

As for the Madigan v Jackson discussion... In truth, there is no discussion.

by Ledge the ledgebag Thu 13 Jun 2013, 6:55 pm

Bit annoyed with Boss making the side again, still happy to see Tommy O'Donnell coming in for Chris Henry

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:31 pm

Pretty upset Marmion didn't get any game time on this tour. Two of our biggest problem positions are scrumhalf and tighthead prop, Marmion and Hagan are the lads I would consider the lads to take over and they have got minimal game time.

We'll never know if there were more positive designs due to this illness and who it was who was ill or just not selected

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:33 pm

Wonder what happened to henderson also

by **Notch** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:58 pm

by **Notch** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:58 pm

Gibson wrote:
On the button there.

And Downey is a waste of time on a tour like this. Where's Macken?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 13 Jun 2013, 8:06 pm

Macken is in Georgia with the Emerging Ireland team along with the likes of Reid, Ruddock, Dave Kearney, Diack, Jack McGrath, Bent, Keatley, Jordi Murphy, Niall Morris etc.

Some people will not be happy unless we put out the U20s or B&I cup team as Internationals.

There is a lot more to building a squad than throwing all the kids in once or twice a season like Cheika used to do.

You need a blend of youth and experience to make this sh1t work.

That's why guys like Boss, McCarthy, Trimble, Court and even Ross are needed.

Lads like McFadden, McLaughlin, Cronin, look experienced in this side.

The least caps of any Irish side in over 50 years and still some people are moaning about "over 30s" being used.

Trimble is the most capped player by a mile in the matchday squad. The only other players with more than 20 caps are Court, Ross and Cronin. Most of Cronins were for a few minutes. Probably Court's too.

The other thing I would pick out is D'arcy being "finished" He has been "finished" for about 6 years now acording to some, and is still the best 12 in Ireland.

Probably his last year, and I'm all for others getting gametime, but none of them are ripping the shirt off his back.......yet.

Madigan v Jackson will run and run. I like them both for very different reasons.

Madigan is ahead for me at the moment. Jackson would have been in the 1st half of the season.

They both have parts of their game that are better than each other's.

Madigan is older, but was stuck behind the best outhalf north of the Equator (and probably the 2nd best on the planet) until VERY recently.

Jackson was thrown in to the fire a bit early, both for province and Country, but I reckon he will be fine.

by The Great Aukster Thu 13 Jun 2013, 8:08 pm

Standulstermen wrote:OK chaps. Team for Saturday. Looks good. First cap for Downey Backrow looks decent.

Ireland Team & Replacements (v Canada, BMO Field, Toronto, Saturday June 15th, 20:00 (01:00 Irish time), live on TG4)

Player/Club/Caps

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 4
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 18
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 4
12. James Downey (Dolphin/Munster)*
11. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 49
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 3
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster) 16

1. Tom Court (Malone/Ulster) 31
2. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 3
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 30
4. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster) 6
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 6
6. Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 5
7. Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 1
8. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 15 Captain

Replacements:
16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 26
17. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 7
18. Declan Fitzpatrick (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 4
19. Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht) 11
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 7
21. Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 2
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 3
23. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 1

Team for Saturday. Have to say I think it is a horrid selection although I would Withdraw that if a number of options were unavailable

The problem with the team is that it is neither a new cap introduction tool nor a "next in line" development tool. Kilcoyne should have had two starting caps from this tour with Court only called upon if killer got injured.
It seems all the players who were mediocre last time get rewarded with another go, yet the ones who acquitted themselves well are either left out or demoted - is that really the signal the players should be sent? For example Strauss was comfortably the worst of the three hookers during the season and had a mare against USA, yet he is the one retained? Maybe Sherry is ill but why isn't Cronin starting?

Reward mediocrity and that is what you're guaranteed to get - mediocrity.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 13 Jun 2013, 8:11 pm

I think Henderson, Sherry and Olding are down with a bug. May explain some calls.

by **Notch** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 8:19 pm

They've chosen not to list the players unavailable- either being canny or maybe just sparing some guys the indignity of being listed as unavailable with explosive diarrhea Smile

I'm not actually disappointed with Henderson missing he's had a fair bit of exposure already and a long season too boot, but it certainly is disappointing to not see Olding and Sherry. Hope Madigan gets some time at 12 in the second half.

by The Great Aukster Thu 13 Jun 2013, 8:24 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Madigan is older, but was stuck behind the best outhalf north of the Equator (and probably the 2nd best on the planet) until VERY recently.

Madigan was behind Sexton, Berquist and McKinley for the Leinster 10 shirt so wasn't the obvious contender being portrayed here. IM looks to have potential and deserves another chance against Canada to show he can run a game. His real test will come in blue next season though when he is first choice 10 with no safety net.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 13 Jun 2013, 8:32 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Madigan is older, but was stuck behind the best outhalf north of the Equator (and probably the 2nd best on the planet) until VERY recently.

Madigan was behind Sexton, Berquist and McKinley for the Leinster 10 shirt so wasn't the obvious contender being portrayed here. IM looks to have potential and deserves another chance against Canada to show he can run a game. His real test will come in blue next season though when he is first choice 10 with no safety net.

I would agree totaly with all of this. It was the beginning of last season though that he was behind those 3 (ie. almost 2 years ago)

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 4:10 am

Notch wrote:The big issue is Downey- I can only assume that Olding is ill. Think they bottled it unless Jackson was also ill. They've rotated and given everyone a shot, right policy, but bottled it in the halfbacks. Hopefully they give the two on the bench the second half.

I think Downey- Cave is a nice looking partnership or brawn and brains, a sort of bargain basement version of Roberts -BOD.

It's a pity Downey isn't 10 years younger.

by gleesonisgod Fri 14 Jun 2013, 5:30 am

I cant believe people are calling for Jackson to be getting more game time. He got that during the 6N and failed. It's Madigan's time to shine. Hopefully he'll get some good ball this time.

Also someone made the point here that the saying 'if they're good enough they're old enough' applies both ways. Court could have more of an international career ahead of him than Kilcoyne so I'm fine with him starting.

Ross starting is a strange one as is Toner. Backrow is pleasing but th exclusion of Marmion is frustrating.

I dont think, taking the bug into account, that its as bad as it looks.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 14 Jun 2013, 5:53 am

Equally Madigan got his chance against the U.S. and failed to do much,Jackson was playing in a disfunctional team in the 6N so I wouldn't hold that over him just like I won't hold last weeks performance over Madigan.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:05 am

gleesonisgod wrote:I cant believe people are calling for Jackson to be getting more game time. He got that during the 6N and failed. It's Madigan's time to shine. Hopefully he'll get some good ball this time.

Also someone made the point here that the saying 'if they're good enough they're old enough' applies both ways. Court could have more of an international career ahead of him than Kilcoyne so I'm fine with him starting.

Ross starting is a strange one as is Toner. Backrow is pleasing but th exclusion of Marmion is frustrating.

I dont think, taking the bug into account, that its as bad as it looks.

In what way did he fail, Gleeson?

by Standulstermen Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:08 am

That's a fair enough crop of newbies if we are looking at tier 1 opposition at the aviva but a summer tour game against Canada?
According to the independent everyone trained yesterday s I don't know what relevance the bug had. I hope the lads go out and hammer them but really what will we learn from Mike Ross, Isaac Boss, Tom Court etc in this.

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:32 am

Sorry Geeson but thats nonsence, how did Jackson 'fail'? His goal kicking let him down but that has frequently happened with Sexton too.

Other aspects of his game went well - distribution, defence. He is not the finished article but he did relatively well compared other Irish 10s in recent seasons.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:41 am

I thought Jackson and Marshall looked to have serious potential in the 6 nations, first real attacking spark we have seen in a long time. Jackson's distribution paired with Marshall's line breaking ability was a great combination.

Before that we had the individual brilliance of O'Driscoll and Bowe to provide any sort of threat to the opposition.

by SecretFly Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:45 am

"Equally Madigan got his chance against the US, and failed to do much"

Except get all the Irish points that won the hard fought for game.

Jackson didn't fail during the 6N. He was dropped into a team that was competing against seriously tuned in International sides in one of the most furiously emotional events in rugby.

Ireland were being badly coached to begin with, and added to that was the injuries.

But... he did get his three run-outs. And against criticism, many of us were saying he should be left in situ for those games; that it was a tough learning curve but that it might prove one of the positives of a failed campaign if lesser players got meaningful time in unforgiving International games.

So on we go to this American tour, where not only is the Ireland team still being coached by the coaches who coached badly during the 6N (and before), not only is it playing to the same 'tactics' that we've seen Ireland play to now for a number of years - the side is also weakened again - this time by the Lions tour.
But also, the side is diluted that bit more by our involvement in the Emerging Ireland show in Tblisi. And America put in a bone crunching physical game. People who say that was just our weaknesses making them look brutally physical and quick out of their defensive blocks...well, look at the game again. It wasn't us it was them. They played their limited physical game well.

But... that doesn't matter to some here. Madigan has had his ten cents worth of effort, it didn't amount to a whole lot and he doesn't deserve to be in the Canadian game. But given that he is in it, he should definitely be replaced by Jackson after 40 to give Jackson a genuine chance to prove himself.

Jackson had three games in the 6N. Madigan has had the one shot at 10 against America and took all the points that gave Ireland the win, however close that win was. But still some people here have seen enough. Get him off, he can't cut it at this level.

So I'm saying if we're all honest in our analysis, then let's give Madigan the same shot as Jackson has had. Then let's see Jackson again by all means. But even handedness must be seen to operate in this debate or I'll begin to think there is another flavour to it all.

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:52 am

Jackson played 3 games in the 6N because he was the best option available. ROG was out of sorts and up until then Jackson had been the form 10 and 3rd choice Irish 10. Madigan played much of the early season at 15.

Madigans late season form means he deserves his chance and he did ok against the USA in a scrappy game.

This is a tour though and I suspect the plan was always to poly both 10s, it can't be compared with the 6N.

by debaters1 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:08 am

Kidney made his decision on Jackson over Madigan (ROG) in the 6 Nations. PJ then played 3 games, which was the correct call. It does not serve ireland or the player to have farked him out after 1 game. Did he set the world on fire against Scotland? No. But he wasn't awful, just not as accomplished as Sexton and lacked the 120 caps worth of experience compared to ROG. FFS. There really is no pleasing some people.

Now, personnaly, I am with the majority on here (as I count it anyway) that feels IM is playing better etc and thus have no problem seeing him getting another start, but suggesting that after 3 caps in the 2013 injury ravaged 6N we have found out all we need to know about PJ is asinine.

ROG didn't set the world alight in his first few caps but after some bloke called Brian O'Driscoll, was Ireland's most important player of the pro era (will accept an argument regarding John Hayes for a large stretch of the noughties too) Fark.

Young rugby players have to crawl before the walk and walk before they run. Do you really want a Matthew Tait scenario in Ireland? A huge chunck of his career ruined because he was cast aside like a used condom? We do not have the depth to do that. (Now to be clear, I do not think and did not think MT was all that, but his treatment by Robinson was appalling, that's the point I am making)

I, for one, would be ashamed of any Irish coach/IRFU policy that would allow a guy to be cast aside in such circumstances; Kidney made his choice with PJ, stuck with that choice and fell on his sword as a result. That is pro sport for you, but remember, we're one dodgy piece of chicken away from PJ being on the bench for the RWC 1/4 Final and a twisted ankle away from him having to play 75 mins. Those 3 caps in the 6 Nations and whatever rugby he gets on Saturday will suddenly be fairly farking vital to our chances of winning said Q/F.

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:53 am

Are you suggesting that Kidney lost his job because of Jackson? Kidney lost his job because of an awful win loss ration thats been stretching back since 2010 and the final nail was loosing the support of ROG and BOD.

Jackson had a cracking game against Scotland. He and Marshall cut the Scottish midfield apart. It was the teams failure to put chances away which cost us.

Against England we were overpowered up front and come the Italy game we were down to bare bones in terms of personel and moral.

Madigan has earned his chance but so did Jackson in the 6N. I don't believe for one second we'd have done any better with any other available 10.

by debaters1 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 9:36 am

Oh no Rodders, not at all. Though i do not think Jackson had anything like a cracking game against Scotland, he was good in patches and also made mistakes, no surpises there though given his inexperience, but that Kidney COULD have dropped him, reselected ROG and had the team then gone on to beat France and Italy, might have saved his job.

But he didn't and Jackson and Ireland are the better for it. Also, I am not suggesting that Ireland would have won those games had ROG been on (or Madigan for that matter) and with ROG on they could well have both been lost and more convincingly in Italy's case too, but it was to the player's and team's future benefit that Kidney stuck with PJ though he himself will not reap it.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough above as I was just angered by Gleeson's post, but but just because I have not extolled the greatness of Jackson does not mean I am blaming him for losses or underplaying his talents, so slow your roll. Wink

by SecretFly Fri 14 Jun 2013, 9:43 am

The truth is that what a coach like Schmidt is suggesting (and indeed the much put-upon Kidney before him) is that in order to compete at International level, the system must be consistent and the players chosen to play it must be up to speed as a squad, not as a first 15. There are both positives and negatives to that for the squad itself and for the individual players who might contribute to it.

The positive is that if players are bred and trained and drilled to a level both within Provincial structures and then at International camps then those players training against each other will help out the main cause, and that is to heighten still further the intensity our Internationals bring to the opposition. If you train with fast, furious, creative and physical players, your game itself also improves (thus why NZ can always be a cut above as they get to train against a higher calibre of player than they might expect to meet in most of their International games! The training is harder, faster, more accurate than the International game itself)

The negatives are complex. How do you achieve such development if development itself seems to imply that the players need International experience to get there? Meaning, in order to have an efficient squad that the coach can rotate without worrying about a fall off in ability or intensity, then meaningful time is needed at International itself.

Tough to do when you need to win most of them. But easier to do if your schools and youth programmes themselves have the work already begun (back to NZ).

Second negative is that by definition not all players of equal standard in any position will be able to play the meaningful International games. Rotation might work better in club rugby with long seasons but in an International context (shorter competitions, more intensity) that can't often be sanctioned as too much is at stake and consistency/continuity is often needed.

But, we here and in the media don't help matters as we're always too quick to judge subtle differences in abilty as major ones if one guy gets the International position and the other guy doesn't. It's a game of one upmanship and it might be running silently under the discussions but it's always there.
We ourselves need to change our priorities, we need to stop bad mouthing players simply on the context of them making the International cut or not. There can only be 15 players on a field.
There can be more than 2 genuine options for any position though. It's up to Schmidt, his coaches, the Provincial coaches and the IRFU to ensure that an International number on your back does not make you a naturally better player but just a choice needed to be made when 15 players have to be selected.

If we reach that point (when the jersey becomes a mere number rather than a signature tune of a 'special' player) then we'll have an Ireland that is ready to compete through a full International competition, hitting hard no matter who gets picked.
Or, in other words, we'd have finally joined the modern rugby world.

Sorry for length..but you all know me by now Whistle

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 9:54 am

Consider my roll slowed...

I don't think Jackson is great. I think he is good though and his distribution is excellent, better even than Sextons, he has good pace and is a solid defender. I'm not sure that he has the mental strength or personality to be a top class 10 and boss games but at only 21 its hard to judge and he has time.

I don't accept though that he has been selected on anything other than merit or that his contributions so far for Ireland have been anything other than positive.

If you judged Sexton on his goal kicking then he is a mediocre player. Except he isn't mediocre, he's top class.

Madigan is the second best 10 in Ireland right now, I think nearly everyone agrees, but in February this wasn't necessarily the case.

by **profitius** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:17 am

Can someone explain to me the logic of Les Kiss taking charge of this tour while Joe Schmidt is there observing? Schmidt said that himself btw. Its a wasted tour in that regard I think.

Schmidt should have taken over when he arrived and start getting the players used to his style of rugby. It took Leinster a month or two to get the hang of it when Schmidt first arrived so he could be doing that now and the non Leinster players would have the summer to think about it.

by **profitius** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:19 am

We'll have to ask the Kiwis how they cope online when there are some many options available for selection. chin

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:19 am

I'm guessing its a logical thing. Schmidt wouldn't have had time to be involved with the planning and preperation for the tour I'd have thought.

by **Notch** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:31 am

SecretFly wrote:Madigan has had the one shot at 10 against America and took all the points that gave Ireland the win, however close that win was. But still some people here have seen enough. Get him off, he can't cut it at this level.

So I'm saying if we're all honest in our analysis, then let's give Madigan the same shot as Jackson has had. Then let's see Jackson again by all means. But even handedness must be seen to operate in this debate or I'll begin to think there is another flavour to it all.

Nonsense. I've been saying since it became obvious that Kidney wasn't leading this tour that it should be used to give as many players a chance as possible including Madigan- that it should be two different teams for the two tests and let the best players keep the shirt. I argued that Madigan should have started ahead of Jackson in the Six Nations, should have been higher up in the pecking order, and I stand by it.

So characterising me as not being even handed is ludicrous. I know the quality Jackson has will win him 50+ caps whether he has to wait a year or two to add to them or not. He is a ridiculously precocious talent for the age of 21 and unlike rodders I can see the incredible mental strength he has- hence his being thrown into the deep end, he has the character to not let it affect him whether he sinks or swims. He's remarkably unfazed by any of it. But I was banging the drum that our 10s in the Six Nations should be Sexton, Keatley and Madigan because of his lack of time goalkicking and his slow and steady development with Ulster and now I'm saying we should look to the future and give two guys who are very close in ability a shot each and pick the best player going forward. What there is to argue about that is beyond me.

We've made the wrong call twice on Jackson imo. We should have held him back for the must-win games in February and given him first caps in the development games in June! We're completely ass backwards about the whole thing. I feel like he and Madigan both earned the right to get a start and showcase themselves at the end of the year. We should have had another game on this tour.

by red_stag Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:33 am

Profitius, it wouldn't have been a possibility. Schmidt was working with Leinster until 25th May. Ireland squad named on 18 May.

Schmidt would not have had time to give selections or tactics any thought. However he went along to give advice and observe the current state of affairs.

I don't see there was a realistic alternative.

by **Notch** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:36 am

rodders wrote:I think Downey- Cave is a nice looking partnership or brawn and brains, a sort of bargain basement version of Roberts -BOD.

Hah!

rodders wrote:It's a pity Downey isn't 10 years younger.

And 10 times better!

by red_stag Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:38 am

If Munster sign this NIQ winger that they seek we are going to see Downey drop out of Munster team with a Laulala-Earls pairing.

Personally I think Downey isn't really international standard but is an effective and reliable backup who should have certainly been capped by now.

by **rodders** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:42 am

Notch I didn't mean Jackson lacks mental strength per se, thats the wrong phrase. He's obviously shown an abundance of it so far in his short career, having been thrown in the deep end at Ulster and the way he bounced back from last seasons HEC final.

I'm not sure he is a guy who can control games and also come up with big pressure place kicks. I know you disagree but I'm not convinced. He may well be able to but to me the jury is still out but there is plenty of time. That was what I meant.

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