Lions Captain - No Nonsense Poll

First topic message reminder :

This may not turn out to be thread of the year, but you know what to do.

Vote for who you would like to see captain the Lions in Australia.

And it is worth noting that at least in the first half, Munster were hardly "smashed" up front.
But I agree POC cannot go on reputation, he probably needs a massive game against Quins.

Munster were in it in the 1st half agreed, but there was only one team in it after the break. O'Connell is a great player but he hasn't shown consistent form since coming back from injury, time is running out.

He's only played two matches, give him a break. He was MOTM in his first game back and fair enough Munster were utterly outplayed last week, but I don't think if he played well it would've changed the outcome.

He said himself that he needs 3 games to get back to full fitness. IMO his chances rest on his performance this weekend. Judge him on that.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Munster were in it in the 1st half agreed, but there was only one team in it after the break. O'Connell is a great player but he hasn't shown consistent form since coming back from injury, time is running out.

He's had two games...one showing he can, the other showing he maybe can't. Hardly anything to get too worked up about in terms of displaying 'consistent' form.

If O'Connell is picked to travel it will be based on Gatland's opinion of his inherent abilities and Gatland's own instincts operating rather than really based too much on form. Gatland will be predicting what form O'Connell could be in if he gets into Lions camp and prepares under Lions conditions

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Munster were in it in the 1st half agreed, but there was only one team in it after the break. O'Connell is a great player but he hasn't shown consistent form since coming back from injury, time is running out.

Has he played enough to show consistent form - Glasgow was his 2nd game for Munster since last October having had a back op.

Thought he faded a bit in the 2nd half myself - but that could be a match fitness issue rather than a form issue.

At least 2 intense games to come - Quins & Leinster.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:They are but he didn't do his credentials any good when he is getting outplayed by Ruck inspector Kellock.

Maybe not but its unlikely POC will be judged on one match. In the previous game he looked very sharp and scored a nice try for example. Im sure reputation and class will be considered in some cases.

O'Connell is a great example of a player who is easily good enough to travel but may simply not have enough time to get back to full fitness.

Whilst we're vaguely on topic, what is the latest on Zebo? I read that he was targeting to comeback this weekend?

I'd say if he kept injury free he'd be coming right round to full fitness just as Lions are about to kick off. Most Lions players will be kind of trying to extend season's form... they'll be running on empty, some of them, by the last test. O'Connell, if injury free should still have an air of freshness that few would actually match given his lay off.

Richie Gray for me.

Robshaw? Surely the Capt actually has to be playing

100%beefy wrote:Robshaw? Surely the Capt actually has to be playing

If not Robshaw, who then?

For the tour captain I would probably only consider Wilkinson or BOD, neither are great players but both are exceptional leaders and great professionals alike!!

I honestly think a test captain isn't as important as a tour captain, a test captain can be attained from the most senior player in the best form, and whereas players today are far more understanding of rotation and peak performance. There are 4 natural captains in the squad anyway, probably more with test captain experience.

thebluesmancometh wrote:For the tour captain I would probably only consider Wilkinson or BOD, neither are great players but both are exceptional leaders and great professionals alike!!

I honestly think a test captain isn't as important as a tour captain, a test captain can be attained from the most senior player in the best form, and whereas players today are far more understanding of rotation and peak performance. There are 4 natural captains in the squad anyway, probably more with test captain experience.

Wilko wont be there so that would be an odd call.

If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

majesticimperialman wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Robshaw? Surely the Capt actually has to be playing

If not Robshaw, who then?

wtf knows really, everyone bangs on about BOD but he is off form and not assured of a start and to me is a throwback to the worst Lions debacle ever, Warburton whilst back in form is no Capt and certainly cannot be expected to concentrate on his own game and lead a scratch side by example. I like 2nd row Capts a la MJ/POC so AWJ maybe but he seems to me like a default choice.

There is just no stand out...Gethin maybe but again not assured of a start. i expect Gats, being Gats, might just pick his side first then skipper.

How could it not be Chris Ashton?

George Carlin wrote:If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

Biggar?

Maybe Captains ain't what they used to be?

I think you all over-cook the importance of the role, actually.

The Lions will be stuffed with players of the ability to think for themselves, within a certain gameplan overview. If they need a Big Momma Leader to tell them what to say, and where to have a drink, and to be in bed by ten, and where to kick a ball under pressure, then they ain't modern professional Lions - as they'd like to think of themselves as being.

Relax, any of a handful of guys will do. The handful of guys in contention won't be exactly listening too much to orders from the chosen one anyway

I guess though that the idea of military precision and etiquette is endemic to some souls here though...so continue trying to choose the best general...oops, Captain.

mystiroakey wrote:How could it not be Chris Ashton?

True he's the obvious choice - but then logic tells me that gatland will go with a surprise choice, just to be different and keep those Aussies guessing.

Yeah he will probally go for some wanabee liek BOD or Warbs

mystiroakey wrote:How could it not be Chris Ashton?

majesticimperialman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:How could it not be Chris Ashton?

The only player to clearly hold respect from everyone.. Gatland would get all the great press he deseves with picking Ashton the stand out captain..

100%beefy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

Biggar?

If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

George Carlin wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

Biggar?

If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

Biggar?

100%beefy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

Biggar?

If Sexton is not 100%, Farrell does not come out of the Heineken covered in glory and Toulon advances to the final, then I think Wilkinson going becomes more and more likely. There, I done said it.

Biggar?

just not possible Beefy. In so many ways.

Various prerequisites for the job: lead from the front; intimidate the opposition with their presence; respected by the other players; blah, blah. but above all you hope they are the first name on the team sheet.

There in lies the problem, there is no first name on the team sheet, no stand out candidate.

- Until the Scotland match Rory Best was first in line for me, but since then and Hibbard on the up, does he even start?
- AWJ is being mentioned, but with only just returning to fitness, and others esp. Evans in better form, Launchbury, Parling and Gray returning, again there is no saying he starts?
- Can't pick Robshaw because of Warburton and Tipuric. Likewise can't pick Warburton because of Robshaw.
- BOD and POC are also being mentioned. On their best form both start and both cracking candidates for captain, but neither are on form. Moreover given their form, could also argue that both are in the mix at the moment, precisely because of a lack of stand out alternate.

So question is this great strength in depth or a massive concern?

It's the classic question, Total. To be fair to Gats, he has been clear that he will not guarantee that his captain will start a test. With that pressure off, it's probably more important to be a figurehead / spokesperson for the tour party which pretty much makes O'Driscoll the obvious candidate.

My feeling is that at present BOD is more likely to be in the test team than POC, Warbs and possibly even Robshaw (although I think Robshaw does need to start for us).

Adam Jones.

Guaranteed starter, very well respected by all, well spoken, self deprecating, funny and will lead by example by doing his job on the field with out any doubts whatsoever.

George Carlin wrote:It's the classic question, Total. To be fair to Gats, he has been clear that he will not guarantee that his captain will start a test. With that pressure off, it's probably more important to be a figurehead / spokesperson for the tour party which pretty much makes O'Driscoll the obvious candidate.

My feeling is that at present BOD is more likely to be in the test team than POC, Warbs and possibly even Robshaw (although I think Robshaw does need to start for us).

Agreed re Robshaw, I think he has to start too - but can't make him captain just in case the first test gets run by Pocock and the back row needs to be changed to include two more out and out open sides to counteract him in the second.

Hadn't realised Gatland had said that - clearly not reading enough on this topic!! BOD makes sense then.

Pocock is out of the Lions series.

Ok my serious answer. Its just the fact that Ashton was stuck on the list made me have to comment.. Isnt that what you wanted OP


Bod would be Fairytale stuff TBH. Is he a gaurented starter after recent performance?.. However if he starts he would have to be my choice..

Warbs is obviously another stand out name.

Chris Robshaw personally(the anglo in me) is my choice..

But Adam Jones as mentioned above would also be decent

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Pocock is out of the Lions series.

Cheers for the update Sgt., my ignorance clearly knows no bounds, can't think what the hell I've been doing with my time.

Adam Jones is not leader material on or off the field - a great lad and one of the most likeable players around but a leader definately not and as for after match speaker and analyst, No way Jose - He gets anxious in interviews, stumbles over his words and rolls his eyes when he doesn't know what to say. The natural leaders are BOD, Robshaw and Ryan Jones actually with BOD for me being the only realistic candidate

Adam Jones cannot be the Lions figurehead.

Not with that hair.

RubyGuby wrote:Adam Jones is not leader material on or off the field - a great lad and one of the most likeable players around but a leader definately not and as for after match speaker and analyst, No way Jose - He gets anxious in interviews, stumbles over his words and rolls his eyes when he doesn't know what to say. The natural leaders are BOD, Robshaw and Ryan Jones actually with BOD for me being the only realistic candidate

The same can be said for Kelly Brown. Yet he is a fantastic captain. In fact I think the fact Kelly Brown has to compose himself with his deep breaths and pauses it actually makes what he says more articulate and you listen more to what he has to say.

As I posted earlier in this thread - there is not an obvious choice for a captain who is guaranteed to start. There are a number of very credible candidates but none are nailed on starters.

If you go back 20 years it's hard to argue that Hastings, Johnson (twice), BOD and POC weren't obvious captains and also first names on the team sheet.

I reckon Gatland has a list of who will be his nailed on starters, we can just speculate.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Adam Jones is not leader material on or off the field - a great lad and one of the most likeable players around but a leader definately not and as for after match speaker and analyst, No way Jose - He gets anxious in interviews, stumbles over his words and rolls his eyes when he doesn't know what to say. The natural leaders are BOD, Robshaw and Ryan Jones actually with BOD for me being the only realistic candidate

The same can be said for Kelly Brown. Yet he is a fantastic captain. In fact I think the fact Kelly Brown has to compose himself with his deep breaths and pauses it actually makes what he says more articulate and you listen more to what he has to say.

Kelly Brown rolls his eyes back so you know he's composing himself and thinking about an articulate response - Adams just go back because he doesn't know what to say, there's a big difference

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I reckon Gatland has a list of who will be his nailed on starters, we can just speculate.

Wood has to be nailed on at 6

You think? I'd be surprised if he toured.

RubyGuby wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I reckon Gatland has a list of who will be his nailed on starters, we can just speculate.

Wood has to be nailed on at 6

Ruby you're such a wag

It depends on where Gatland sees Robshaw. If he sees Robshaw as a 6 I reckon wood won't tour. If he sees Robshaw as a 7 I reckon he will take Wood too.

England played just about every match with a backrow that had players not playing in their prefered position and Scotland played Kelly Brown at 7 for the whole 6N too.

Certainly Robshaw and Brown will have chances to show their credentials in the Aviva and HC matches Wood isn't really getting that chance with the Saints.

If Glaws overtake them in the Aviva Wood will have to hope that his form for England will be enough to see off his competitors.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You think? I'd be surprised if he toured.

What a plank!

No-one should be guaranteed to start in any game.

If the selection decision is close that implies there's not much difference by picking either - so just pick one. Gatland will pick Warburton because that's who he trusts.

You've done me again Guby

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It depends on where Gatland sees Robshaw. If he sees Robshaw as a 6 I reckon wood won't tour. If he sees Robshaw as a 7 I reckon he will take Wood too.

England played just about every match with a backrow that had players not playing in their prefered position and Scotland played Kelly Brown at 7 for the whole 6N too.

Certainly Robshaw and Brown will have chances to show their credentials in the Aviva and HC matches Wood isn't really getting that chance with the Saints.

If Glaws overtake them in the Aviva Wood will have to hope that his form for England will be enough to see off his competitors.

So you think Wood is not nailed on then Radge - If he doesn't go I can see a lot of english fans forming a splinter group on here and campaigning for him to be included. I think they have already started a campaign for his inclusion and have their own web site. Perhaps you should log on and have a look I think Wood and Twelvetrees would bring some much needed strength to the squad in general. Then again if Gatland can't see the Wood for the Trees we might be in trouble. Both these are good at recycling and would dovetail well IMO

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You've done me again Guby

Cheers Pooly, I'm after Radge now, hook and bait are out

I dunno if he is nailed on or not. Someone was despairing on the blind side flanker poll thread that Ryan Jones only has a couple of votes. The competition for the backrow is crazy. Especially at 6. 7 IMO picks itself with Tipuric and or Warbs since the main competition isn't really stepping up.

Barclay was Immense against Munster at the weekend, and will have a chance to showcase his talents in the pro12 playoffs for Glasgow, but I can't think he'll be good enough to displace Warbs or Tipuric.

Tipuric has been simply outstanding and IMO is one of the "nailed on" test starters along with Adam Jones. The rest I reckon will be decided on the tour.