WRU speaks out

First topic message reminder :

Press release:

"WELSH RUGBY UNION STATEMENT

The Welsh Rugby Union wishes to clarify recent media reporting of a variety of current issues related to Welsh rugby. The WRU is anxious that the Welsh rugby public are made aware of the facts.


PRGB

The proposal to create a Professional Regional Game Board was developed during discussions following an independent report which concluded that the Regions needed to improve their business management and explore collaborative solutions.

A memorandum of understanding was signed by all four Regions and the WRU late in 2012 agreeing terms for the creation of the PRGB, its remit, who should be its members and its independent Chairman.

Early in 2013 the Regions sought to interpret the memorandum of understanding in a manner which was unacceptable to the WRU.

On Tuesday March 26, in a desire to move matters forward, the WRU presented a new proposal for a PRGB and awaits a response from the Regions.

It is important to note that the WRU seeks to help the regions create long term rugby and business sustainability. Demands for more money do not address the fundamental problems.

The WRU urges the regions to work together with the WRU to ensure that a PRGB can become operational in order to help address the issues raised in the PwC report.


JUDGEMENT DAY

The WRU organised, marketed and managed the event within its stated aim of helping the Regions achieve greater visibility and attract more and new supporters. This initiative was first proposed to the Regions by the WRU in 2007.

The WRU guarantees significant match fees to the Blues and Dragons as this day replaces their scheduled home fixtures.

The WRU has underwritten the event for four years with financial guarantees.

The WRU has also proposed further, major events involving the four Regions at the Millennium Stadium.

Judgement Day has proved a remarkable success with 36, 174 people attending to watch a celebration of regional rugby which has raised the profile of the elite game in Wales.


PLAYER TRANSFERS

The WRU accepts that some elite players will inevitably seek to leave Wales to achieve contractual incomes which are beyond the capacity of the current game in Wales.

The WRU has developed an elite pathway structure which nurtures talent through the WRU age grade structure, the WRU academies, the WRU funded regional age grade competitions, the Principality Premiership Division and its WRU resourced community game.

The WRU funds the Regions to secure the release of those elite contracted players with an annual sum in excess of £6million. This £6 million is part of the £15 million distributed to the Regions annually by the WRU.

The WRU has created a powerful elite playing and training environment through its National Centre of Excellence. The WRU urges the Regions to abandon the practice of selling Welsh qualified senior players for profit before their contracts are concluded.

The WRU further urges all four Regions to inform other regions and the WRU, as a first priority, when they are seeking to sell or release any elite Welsh qualified player.


GEORGE NORTH

The WRU is aware that the Scarlets opened discussions to transfer the player with clubs outside Wales and the UK late in 2012.

George North informed the WRU shortly after the Wales v Ireland RBS 6 Nations international on February 2 2013 that he had then been told of the transfer proposal.

George refused to consider France, but reluctantly conceded he would be prepared to move if the Scarlets wished.


CENTRAL CONTRACTS

The WRU first tabled an offer to discuss centrally contracting Welsh qualified regional players in August 2012 and has renewed that proposal. No meaningful response from the Regions has been received by the WRU.

The WRU revisited the issue of George North and agreed to consider assisting in a financial model to retain him in Wales with one of the four Regions.

The WRU has recently discovered that the Regions signed an agreement which precludes any of them playing an individual who is centrally contracted to the Union.


The WRU urges all four Regions to abandon this stance and return to the negotiating table.


This press release was produced by Sotic Ltd.

© Copyright Welsh Rugby Union. All rights reserved."


EDIT:

The Regions' response:

"The four Welsh regions are united in expressing how staggered and bitterly disappointed they all are with the nature, intent and content of the public statement made by the WRU this morning on a number of issues affecting Welsh rugby.
As the governing body that should lead and set the standards and platform for the profile of the game in Wales, the regions are surprised at the WRU's seemingly defensive reaction to some of the media reporting particularly given the success of yesterday's Welsh derby double-header.

As a celebration of regional rugby that attracted close to 37,000 supporters of our game, it was a clear example of the benefits of a partnership approach between the four regions to create fresh opportunities to promote the regional game in Wales and enjoyed by both regional players and spectators.

There are a number of significant comments made within the WRU statement, that the four regions will now need to consider very seriously and with the appropriate amount of time and discussion before making a full and united response.

The Professional Regional Game Board (PRGB) was proposed to ensure that Welsh rugby had a joint collaborative body, with an independent chairman, with the remit and authority to find solutions for some of the issues affecting Welsh rugby.

Had the PRGB been implemented as originally agreed by the WRU, it would be addressing the exact issues that it has now raised in its statement including the important objective of how best to retain Welsh players like George North.

The four regions and WRU signed and agreed a Memorandum of Understanding in November 2012 that outlined the creation of the PRGB. On the basis of this agreement, the PRGB met once on December 17th 2012.

The Regions have not changed or altered in any way their interpretation, understanding, intent or commitment to the agreements reached since the first proposals were made in May 2012.

The only queries raised subsequently, which have affected the establishment of the PRGB and the memorandum of understand signed by all five parties, have been made by the WRU which has in turn delayed the process.

The four Welsh regions have been committed and open in providing full and detailed information for the PwC report and its recommendations and have been consistent in their aims to work in partnership for successful establishment of the PRGB."

EDIT #2

Further WRU statement:

"WELSH RUGBY UNION STATEMENT

The WRU invites representatives from each of the four regional organisations to a meeting at the Millennium Stadium to discuss the contracting centrally of key Welsh rugby talent.

The WRU asks the four regional organisations to put aside their agreement not to play centrally contracted players and work with the Union to help secure the future of our young players in Wales.

The WRU will table, in advance of the meeting, a range of detailed options to be discussed, in addition to those already proposed, so that the four regional organisations are fully prepared to take part in a meaningful debate.

The WRU would also welcome suggestions from the four regional organisations on how best a centrally contracted player system would work to help safeguard Welsh rugby.

The WRU will be formally writing to the four regional organisations this morning, Tuesday April 2nd."

wales606 wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Its striking how mature the regions and Scarlets responses are (leaving aside whether or not you agree) compared to the petulant tone of the WRU.

Seems like the regional and Scarlets responses are not saying much other than they don't like the WRU publicly airing their dirty laundry - I don't know how much morale high ground they can take when all 4 regions have bad-mouthed the WRU in public in the last year

Now you mention it, maybe the WRU have their own dirty washing which they don't want mentioning in public.
Dodge gabbed on about PRGB before xmas yet nowt has happened since other than the regions together with all and sundry chopsing.
All we've heard from the WRU in that time is what we have heard today which is pathetic considering the WRU are supposed to be the governing body of Welsh rugby. Also, if the WRU are so concerned about how the regions are run, then why didn't they say anything about the CCS debacle?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Its striking how mature the regions and Scarlets responses are (leaving aside whether or not you agree) compared to the petulant tone of the WRU.

Seems like the regional and Scarlets responses are not saying much other than they don't like the WRU publicly airing their dirty laundry - I don't know how much morale high ground they can take when all 4 regions have bad-mouthed the WRU in public in the last year

Now you mention it, maybe the WRU have their own dirty washing which they don't want mentioning in public.
Dodge gabbed on about PRGB before xmas yet nowt has happened since other than the regions together with all and sundry chopsing.
All we've heard from the WRU in that time is what we have heard today which is pathetic considering the WRU are supposed to be the governing body of Welsh rugby. Also, if the WRU are so concerned about how the regions are run, then why didn't they say anything about the CCS debacle?

Because they don't want involvement in the regions at any point except to ride their coat tails!!

This sounds like the start of a very nasty period for welsh rugby, the WRU essentially want to own everything that is played without a perfectly round ball in Wales, and will do anything they can to do so.

I'm not saying the regions are innocent in any of this, there has been enough chopsing and immaturity from them for a while, but the WRU shouldn't be involved with this kind of petulant behaviour!!

I can't see this ending well for anyone involved, and you know who will get it in the neck, the fans!

I'm not sure why the Scarlets are taking much blame either, from their POV they have offered George the best they can, Northampton can offer more and have a sweetner too. How exactly do the Scarlets gain by handed George to the WRU to place at the Ospreys or Blues? If the WRU were serious about keeping George in Wales they would make the exact proposal they have claimed they have for him to stay at the Scarlets (where he wants to be). By the Scarlets agreeing to the WRU's option they lose their best player to a local rival, have to play against him every year and pay 250k for the privalige of doing so!! No wonder they are touting him about, if nothing else but a 2 fingers up to the WRU!!

I really hope George doesn't get effected by any of this, and I can only think the Scarlets are sincere in asking for his privacy, and being left alone, whereas the WRU doesn't mention his well being at all!!

From the Scarlets this evening. They state that they have not been trying to auction off George North.

Basically accusing the WRU of a false statement



SCARLETS STATEMENT
31 March 2013, 7:37 pm


The Scarlets would like to respond to a public statement made by the WRU outlining comments regarding the region's player George North as follows:

As a region, wherever possible we will continue to uphold our policy and values as a business not to be drawn into individual discussions about the contractual status of any of our players or members of staff.
This has been increasingly difficult given the amount of speculation and debate from outside our region surrounding George's future as a Scarlets player.

At a meeting of Scarlets supporters at Parc y Scarlets last Thursday, our stance regarding public discussions about players' contracts was backed fully by our support base, respecting our aim to maintain a spirit of fairness and privacy to the individuals involved.

The Scarlets are therefore astonished and disappointed that the governing body of Welsh rugby has chosen to speak about an individual player from within our region publicly in this fashion.

We must therefore clarify, that at no time has the WRU made any proposal to us to help retain any player international or otherwise within our region.

Any contract discussions involving George North have only taken place within the last two months including the Scarlets offer of a three-year contract extension that was the very best offer that the club could make.

As is usual business practice, any contractual discussions regarding players take place with their agent or representatives responsible.

As the Scarlets have publicly stated, it has been our wish to retain George North within our Scarlets squad and the region has put forward a substantial offer to keep him in West Wales - an offer which still stands.

We also recognise, George is a player of immense talent and has many options available to him in his future playing career.

We would hope that everybody respects George's privacy and gives him the time and space to ensure that he makes the right decision for him at a very important point in his career.

maestegmafia wrote:From the Scarlets this evening. They state that they have not been trying to auction off George North.

Basically accusing the WRU of a false statement



SCARLETS STATEMENT
31 March 2013, 7:37 pm


The Scarlets would like to respond to a public statement made by the WRU outlining comments regarding the region's player George North as follows:

As a region, wherever possible we will continue to uphold our policy and values as a business not to be drawn into individual discussions about the contractual status of any of our players or members of staff.
This has been increasingly difficult given the amount of speculation and debate from outside our region surrounding George's future as a Scarlets player.

At a meeting of Scarlets supporters at Parc y Scarlets last Thursday, our stance regarding public discussions about players' contracts was backed fully by our support base, respecting our aim to maintain a spirit of fairness and privacy to the individuals involved.

The Scarlets are therefore astonished and disappointed that the governing body of Welsh rugby has chosen to speak about an individual player from within our region publicly in this fashion.

We must therefore clarify, that at no time has the WRU made any proposal to us to help retain any player international or otherwise within our region.

Any contract discussions involving George North have only taken place within the last two months including the Scarlets offer of a three-year contract extension that was the very best offer that the club could make.

As is usual business practice, any contractual discussions regarding players take place with their agent or representatives responsible.

As the Scarlets have publicly stated, it has been our wish to retain George North within our Scarlets squad and the region has put forward a substantial offer to keep him in West Wales - an offer which still stands.

We also recognise, George is a player of immense talent and has many options available to him in his future playing career.

We would hope that everybody respects George's privacy and gives him the time and space to ensure that he makes the right decision for him at a very important point in his career.

Contract negotiations NOT 'involving George North' i.e. without George North's Knowledge were held in December. This statement by the scarlets does not seem to deny this. The wording of the statement has obviously been drawn up very carefully by the club's solicitors.

Scrumdown you have a point.

If the Scarlets wanted to deny what the WRU had said they could reasonably made that clearer. What they have said can be taken two ways and either not deny what the WRU said or infer that the WRU are lying.

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/news/5671.php

http://www.cardiffblues.com/news/6329.php

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/news/6226.php#.UVlZ6Mrt5jg

The following statement is issued by Regional Rugby Wales on behalf of the four Welsh regions; the Scarlets, Ospreys, Newport Gwent Dragons and Cardiff Blues in response to the comments made by the WRU earlier today (Sunday 31st March 2013).
The four Welsh regions are united in expressing how staggered and bitterly disappointed they all are with the nature, intent and content of the public statement made by the WRU this morning on a number of issues affecting Welsh rugby.

As the governing body that should lead and set the standards and platform for the profile of the game in Wales, the regions are surprised at the WRU's seemingly defensive reaction to some of the media reporting particularly given the success of yesterday's Welsh derby double-header.

As a celebration of regional rugby that attracted close to 37,000 supporters of our game, it was a clear example of the benefits of a partnership approach between the four regions to create fresh opportunities to promote the regional game in Wales and enjoyed by both regional players and spectators.

There are a number of significant comments made within the WRU statement, that the four regions will now need to consider very seriously and with the appropriate amount of time and discussion before making a full and united response.

The Professional Regional Game Board (PRGB) was proposed to ensure that Welsh rugby had a joint collaborative body, with an independent chairman, with the remit and authority to find solutions for some of the issues affecting Welsh rugby.

Had the PRGB been implemented as originally agreed by the WRU, it would be addressing the exact issues that it has now raised in its statement including the important objective of how best to retain Welsh players like George North.

The four regions and WRU signed and agreed a Memorandum of Understanding in November 2012 that outlined the creation of the PRGB. On the basis of this agreement, the PRGB met once on December 17th 2012.

The Regions have not changed or altered in any way their interpretation, understanding, intent or commitment to the agreements reached since the first proposals were made in May 2012.

The only queries raised subsequently, which have affected the establishment of the PRGB and the memorandum of understand signed by all five parties, have been made by the WRU which has in turn delayed the process.

The four Welsh regions have been committed and open in providing full and detailed information for the PwC report and its recommendations and have been consistent in their aims to work in partnership for successful establishment of the PRGB.

We only argue when we're winning

Only in Wales could we implode just days after a 6N retention win and record win over the old enemy!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Only in Wales could we implode just days after a 6N retention win and record win over the old enemy!!!

I wouldn't say anyones imploding, more drawing the battle lines. I notice that neither the Regional Rugby Wales statement or the Scarlets personal statement denies that they were trying to auction off George North for cash without him knowing.

Consider the facts.

1. George North (or his agent) has rejected a new contract from the Scarlets
2. The WRU has been asked for help and despite boasting about how much profit they are making, they have refused.
3. If the Scarlets wait until North (or any other star player) is out of contract they get no transfer fee.
4. If North stays at the Scarlets they will see little of him as he will spend most of next season with either Wales or the Lions.
5. Would you expect a professional football side to wait until a player is out of contract before sounding out likely buyers about their interest? Rugby is also now supposed to be a professional sport.
6. Without the cash that the benefactors put into the regions, there would be no professional rugby in Wales! All four regions now have huge financial problems as the recession bites, even the Ospreys were nearly wound up last summer!
7. Most of the WRU income comes from the regions or the use of their assets. TV monies, Raba Sponsorship, the national team etc.
8. Are the Regions using this issue to provoke the WRU? Is the WRU reacting arrogantly (a throw back to the master and servant relationships of the amateur era)? Yes to both.
9. The WRU is motivated solely by paying off the Stadium debts, not because this is best for Welsh Rugby but because this is best for the WRU Executives whose bankeresque bonuses are linked to this.
10. The only way forward is for Professional Rugby to have a far greater say in the running of the game in Wales. I cant see the WRU accepting this as turkeys wont vote for Xmas!

You cant run a business by constantly asking for hand outs. The regions all have to understand that. The PWC report told them their business practices were shocking and they all promised to make changes and learn from mistakes.

Regarding George Norths contrat at the Scarlets, bit iffy really considering George said he wants to stay put more than anything.

I would say that it sounds like the WRU are right and that the regions are trying to sell their best players to solve their financial issues rather than working through them as they had promised they would.

MM

Whay are you so hell bent on claiming the Scarlets are in the wrong and the WRU are innocent??? Are you Lewis???

thebluesmancometh wrote:MM

Whay are you so hell bent on claiming the Scarlets are in the wrong and the WRU are innocent??? Are you Lewis???

The Scarlets haven't denied the allegations that they were trying to sell George North without him knowing, neither have the RRW. I would say that is testimony right there.

The Boards of the Regions are failing to do whatever they promise and RRW are don't show any ability or wish to mediate on their behalf. I see the RRW starting to have ambitions of becoming like the PRL in England, I don't want to ever see that happen to Welsh rugby.

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:MM

Whay are you so hell bent on claiming the Scarlets are in the wrong and the WRU are innocent??? Are you Lewis???

The Scarlets haven't denied the allegations that they were trying to sell George North without him knowing, neither have the RRW. I would say that is testimony right there.

The Boards of the Regions are failing to do whatever they promise and RRW are don't show any ability or wish to mediate on their behalf. I see the RRW starting to have ambitions of becoming like the PRL in England, I don't want to ever see that happen to Welsh rugby.

What you mean have a combined voice to engage and speak on the behalf of the regions??? Easier for the WRU to bully each region individually then isn't it?

Of course the Scarlets are looking to gain something out of their hard work producing a superstar, who wouldn't? Would you be claiming the WRU would be in the wrong if he was challenging his Wales caps and wanted to play for England.

IMHO at least the Scarlets are up front, their offer has been rejected, the WRU have stated they don't want to help them, and they are resigned to losing him, why not get something for him?

Right now the Scarlets have 3 options...

Look for a fee and let him sign for Northampton end of season.

Keep him for another season, and then let him move to whereever he wishes.

Or give the player to the WRU who want to pay his wage demands and place him in direct competition with the Scarlets.


Surely you can see why the Scarlets are put out, the WRU will help with wage demands but not help the Scarlets pay him, they want North at the 2 super regions so they can justify downgrading Scarlets and Dragons.

Scarlets are doing little wrong IMHO, and they are seemingly the only ones who care any of Norths well being himself!!

Kinda telling a player you're offering his services to another club in another country is kinda having respect for a player and kinda caring for him too, Blues.

These players aren't machines and they aren't chips on a roulette table. Desperation often leads a gambler to place his last tenner down even though he needs it for the bus fare home. That's desperation, hardly caring?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:MM

Whay are you so hell bent on claiming the Scarlets are in the wrong and the WRU are innocent??? Are you Lewis???

The Scarlets haven't denied the allegations that they were trying to sell George North without him knowing, neither have the RRW. I would say that is testimony right there.

The Boards of the Regions are failing to do whatever they promise and RRW are don't show any ability or wish to mediate on their behalf. I see the RRW starting to have ambitions of becoming like the PRL in England, I don't want to ever see that happen to Welsh rugby.

What you mean have a combined voice to engage and speak on the behalf of the regions??? Easier for the WRU to bully each region individually then isn't it?

Of course the Scarlets are looking to gain something out of their hard work producing a superstar, who wouldn't? Would you be claiming the WRU would be in the wrong if he was challenging his Wales caps and wanted to play for England.

IMHO at least the Scarlets are up front, their offer has been rejected, the WRU have stated they don't want to help them, and they are resigned to losing him, why not get something for him?

Right now the Scarlets have 3 options...

Look for a fee and let him sign for Northampton end of season.

Keep him for another season, and then let him move to whereever he wishes.

Or give the player to the WRU who want to pay his wage demands and place him in direct competition with the Scarlets.


Surely you can see why the Scarlets are put out, the WRU will help with wage demands but not help the Scarlets pay him, they want North at the 2 super regions so they can justify downgrading Scarlets and Dragons.

Scarlets are doing little wrong IMHO, and they are seemingly the only ones who care any of Norths well being himself!!

I have to go mow the lawn... Chat later...

By the way lads shouldn't this be merged with the WRU thread from last evening as they are pretty much the same topic spread over two threads...????

SecretFly wrote:Kinda telling a player you're offering his services to another club in another country is kinda having respect for a player and kinda caring for him too, Blues.

These players aren't machines and they aren't chips on a roulette table. Desperation often leads a gambler to place his last tenner down even though he needs it for the bus fare home. That's desperation, hardly caring?

Theyre hardly touting him without him knowing, he turned down their best offer, and the WRU have essentially said it's not their problem! What do you want the Scarlets to do? They will lose him to whoever can afford his wage demands next season, and until then he will probably turn out 6 times for the Scarlets, they are in heaps of debt and need some money.

They aren't accepting french offers as he has said he has no interest in going to France (from what Ive heard anyway).

The WRU could easily put in place an offer to keep him in Wales, and have even offered that to the Scarlets, but as a dig they won't do it if he stays at the Scarlets and has to go to a direct rival, or local rival!! COME ON!!

Bluesman,

Why do you think that George North would not have been produced had the WRU been the majority shareholder in the Scarlets and not Huw Evans and co? Why should Huw Evans who is the ultimate owner of the scarlets make money out George North especially when it is the WRU financed academies who produced him?

Private owners such as P Thomas, M Hazell bring no expertise to the table as evidenced by the independent PWC report.

It isn't WRU v Regions. It is rather WRU v 3 or 4 big egos who enjoy the limelight.

Instead of wasting time in meetings with these owners who have no vision or answers, why not find a way of removing them from the equation altogether.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Kinda telling a player you're offering his services to another club in another country is kinda having respect for a player and kinda caring for him too, Blues.

These players aren't machines and they aren't chips on a roulette table. Desperation often leads a gambler to place his last tenner down even though he needs it for the bus fare home. That's desperation, hardly caring?

Theyre hardly touting him without him knowing, he turned down their best offer, and the WRU have essentially said it's not their problem! What do you want the Scarlets to do? They will lose him to whoever can afford his wage demands next season, and until then he will probably turn out 6 times for the Scarlets, they are in heaps of debt and need some money.

They aren't accepting french offers as he has said he has no interest in going to France (from what Ive heard anyway).

The WRU could easily put in place an offer to keep him in Wales, and have even offered that to the Scarlets, but as a dig they won't do it if he stays at the Scarlets and has to go to a direct rival, or local rival!! COME ON!!

A Welsh Rival?

And where he wants to be?

So, killing two birds with one stone? He stays in Wales (better for best practices when dealing with International availability for training etc) and he stays where he wants to stay. Is it really a better deal that he goes to a 'non-rival' side and goes on to be part of a 'non-rival' side that kicks a fellow Welsh region out of European competition?

So is it better that all Welsh regions are dragged down so that none of them gain from another's weakness? Isn't that a little red-misty in the 'local rival' rivalry circus? Would it not be better that two of them at least (regions) might have a real chance of improving themselves with a more concentrated unit of high end Welsh talent?

No? Local rivalry honour forbids any one team from rising? Better they all stay low together with the talent diluted between them? Fine then. Some people will think that, others will think differently, and I suppose that's the disharmony between WRU and Regions in a nutshell.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Kinda telling a player you're offering his services to another club in another country is kinda having respect for a player and kinda caring for him too, Blues.

These players aren't machines and they aren't chips on a roulette table. Desperation often leads a gambler to place his last tenner down even though he needs it for the bus fare home. That's desperation, hardly caring?

Theyre hardly touting him without him knowing, he turned down their best offer, and the WRU have essentially said it's not their problem! What do you want the Scarlets to do? They will lose him to whoever can afford his wage demands next season, and until then he will probably turn out 6 times for the Scarlets, they are in heaps of debt and need some money.

They aren't accepting french offers as he has said he has no interest in going to France (from what Ive heard anyway).

The WRU could easily put in place an offer to keep him in Wales, and have even offered that to the Scarlets, but as a dig they won't do it if he stays at the Scarlets and has to go to a direct rival, or local rival!! COME ON!!

A Welsh Rival?

And where he wants to be?

So, killing two birds with one stone? He stays in Wales (better for best practices when dealing with International availability for training etc) and he stays where he wants to stay. Is it really a better deal that he goes to a 'non-rival' side and goes on to be part of a 'non-rival' side that kicks a fellow Welsh region out of European competition?

So is it better that all Welsh regions are dragged down so that none of them gain from another's weakness? Isn't that a little red-misty in the 'local rival' rivalry circus? Would it not be better that two of them at least (regions) might have a real chance of improving themselves with a more concentrated unit of high end Welsh talent?

No? Local rivalry honour forbids any one team from rising? Better they all stay low together with the talent diluted between them? Fine then. Some people will think that, others will think differently, and I suppose that's the disharmony between WRU and Regions in a nutshell.

He says he wants to stay at the Scarlets!

The WRU are doing they best to be divisive and get the regions arguing with each other.....playground bully tactics!

Seagultaf wrote:

He says he wants to stay at the Scarlets!
The WRU are doing they best to be divisive and get the regions arguing with each other.....playground bully tactics!

Who only play him six times a year? And the Scarlets don't want him? And they'd prefer the money they might have at their disposal for sending him away?

Can't have it both ways? "We can't afford him. Pay us to keep him."???? A big big vote of confidence in an International star.

WRU want their money to count for something. That means concentrating talent. Scarlets don't seem to like that idea as it gives their rivals a leg up.

A leg up is what the WRU seem to be saying Regional rugby needs. Meaning they seem to think Regional rugby will remain a nice little derby party (with empty seats everywhere else) if nobody takes the bull by the horns and demands better performances - and that means in bigger competitions...and that means Europe.

Rugby is inevitably drifting towards Europe. Will Scarlets and the other Regions truly be ready? They'll have to fight for each other (not against each other) if they want to be. They all won't be able to rise equally...some will go up and others will follow. Which side will it be that starts the ball rolling?

Some obviously want that to be Scarlets, I reckon. That's where the debate is. Which Welsh side has a right to most concentration of talent for now (players with WRU money sustaining them)????

Fly

I am confused, are you saying that the Scarlets for the good of welsh club rugby (but not themselves) should allow the WRU to take their best player and give him to their nearest rival???

In what way can the regions fight together in euro club rugby???! Infact they fight against each other and scramble for the 3 HC places!!!

What would happen in Ireland if the IRFU started taking superstars from Leinster to give to Connacht??

The fvacts are North doesn't want out, but won'#t accept Scarlets best offer, the WRU won't help the scarlets but are willing to hand him to Ospreys or Blues, how are the Scarlets being anything but fusked over here?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

I am confused, are you saying that the Scarlets for the good of welsh club rugby (but not themselves) should allow the WRU to take their best player and give him to their nearest rival???

In what way can the regions fight together in euro club rugby???! Infact they fight against each other and scramble for the 3 HC places!!!

What would happen in Ireland if the IRFU started taking superstars from Leinster to give to Connacht??

The fvacts are North doesn't want out, but won'#t accept Scarlets best offer, the WRU won't help the scarlets but are willing to hand him to Ospreys or Blues, how are the Scarlets being anything but fusked over here?

I am saying North (potentially) will have less opportunity to excel at Regional if he and the other 'best' players in Wales are divided out amongst the 4 Regions. The only reason WRU want to offer money for player support at regions is because it wants a certain level of control. That's not me telling you what I think, that's the facts as they appear to me. If they can't exert a pressure on where players play in order to construct a model for regional rugby that will continue to benefit them, then they have no vested interest in offering money for players to stay in Wales at all. So of course the WRU are thinking of their own interests. But the success of Welsh Regions (beyond Pro12) is in their best interests!

The WRU, for good or bad (the argument about which it is isn't my business) but the WRU do want to exert an influence on regional development - as in top class players staying in Wales and playing more regularly AND being part of winning sides - ie Europe.

It's all very well talking about Pro12 success. That's not enough in the modern economic climate. It's not enough for Irish Provinces (Munster have already began to talk about cutting budgets in certain areas due to HEC form dipping)

...and it's not enough for even AP (the reasons why they weren't happy with the HEC organisation stems from their need to succeed in that competition)

Sides need European competition, and a level of success in it, in order to better fund the players, in order to attract good players to stay and in order to buy in real alternatives for certain postiions that might be hard to fill from home grown talent. Success helps a club/Region/Province sell itself both to sponsors and to higher ranking players

You won't do that if you say local greed is enough competition to keep Welsh rugby going. "We don't need the rest of the sides in Pro12 (low crowd turn-outs), we don't need European competition success. All we need is the lovely rivalry we have with each other (Derbies) to sustain the level of players we want in Wales."

The WRU are obviously saying No, that's not enough. And so too, in their own way, are the Regions saying the very same thing. They're saying we can't survive and need assistance to keep our best players at home playing for their regions. The WRU is saying well now, we're not going to be able to furnish you all with full squads of International standard players. We have to be selective to construct regions that will be able to fight in Europe.

Munster were once the best in Europe. Did they give a shyte about Leinster? No. They hated each others guts in the lovely rivalry/competitive way you say Welsh regions should be doing. That's the surface, that's game day, that's knocking the stuffing out of each other as individual players.

BUT...you seriously think Munster didn't help Leinster find the drive and ability to then take over? Munster, being European top dog, made Leinster both envious and it made them confident that with the right structures in place, they could do the same. Having a majorly successful side in the same country/league...inspires others to truly believe they can do the same.

And who did Leinster then push? Correct - Ulster said we're not going to sit by and see those two basterauds get all the kudos in Europe; and they've pushed themselves forward now as the next hope. Irish Provinces (fighting tooth and nail against each other) help generate the self-belief of all. And this competitiveness against each other helps Irish provinces fight hard in Europe most years.

But it has to start someplace...Ulster won the first Irish HEC...but Munster were the side that began the true culture of self belief and the determination not to be beaten by allegedly Old Favourite English and French sides. I'm saying to you WRU are saying Regional rugby has to get serious and it'll probably be one side first that gets that way.

thebluesmancometh wrote:MM

Whay are you so hell bent on claiming the Scarlets are in the wrong and the WRU are innocent??? Are you Lewis???

A similar question could be put to you, where does your irrational hatred of the WRU and subsequent determination to deflect all blame from the regions originate from?

maes makes some perfectly balanced points which, in the post quoted, you fail to answer with anything but prejudiced retorts. It has been demonstrated numerous times and by numerous parties how evidence thus far indicates that the regions are those in the wrong. For one thing, the PWC report was damning of the regions' business methods, not the WRU's. They seem to be looking for quick fix solutions which would utterly fail to sustain them in the long term. The most worrying thing is they don't seem to realise the error of their ways.

For another thing they haven't denied any of what the WRU have accused them of. All they've done is take this opportunity to issue another shot at the WRU without addressing the issues at hand. They claim the governing body should be above making these matters public, yet even that in itself isn't necessarily true. If they were conducting these shady private dealings it would be a scandal to both the player and the fans and it is equally the WRU's right and responsibility to expose that scandal.

While we're on the subject, what happened to the previous financial support the WRU provided the regions? Did they put it to good use or squander it with ineffective and misguided methods? My guess is the latter, how else could they keep going skint again before long?

That's my support for my argument, where's yours? And no, calling people Roger Lewis and making baseless assertions does not qualify as support just to let you know.

The WRU actions on this issue are just plain bullying, and nothing to do with what is best for Welsh Rugby. 6 months ago they tried to close down the Ospreys, who is next?

The WRU does not want strong regions, they want to divide and conquer. If the regions were strong like some of the English and French clubs, the WRU would not be able to bully them.

I can only see two outcomes from this damaging and serious set of events:

1. The WRU work with the Professional Regions to make joint decisions for the benefit of Welsh Rugby.
2. Relations with the Regions continue to fall and ultimately, within the next two years, the Regions fail and professional rugby in Wales ceases to exist.

Scenario 1 is unlikely as it is not in the personal interests of WRU executives. Scenario 2 is highly likely as the majority of Welsh clubs are still jealous and feel disenfranchised by the way the regions were formed, so this scenario is preferred to having strong regions when their local club is not one of them.

Unfortunately scenario 2 will impact negatively on the Welsh side. Wales best young talent will be recruited by top English and French clubs and by the time they reach maturity they will have qualified to play for their new home country.

So two choices, either work together or abandon professional rugby in Wales and allow all our young talent to go to England & France.

But the regions aren't strong, they're weak, stupid and threatening to inflict serious harm on Welsh rugby between them through their collective ineptitude. So why not bully them if it's for the best? The WRU, I must repeat, have shown they can do a better job creating a successful side while the regions have embarrassed themselves and their support time and time again. It needs to change.

If the regions wanted credibility they should have earned it through results. They've failed to do this in ten years of trying and counting. The WRU have achieved this. End of.

Seagultaf wrote:The WRU actions on this issue are just plain bullying, and nothing to do with what is best for Welsh Rugby. 6 months ago they tried to close down the Ospreys, who is next?

The WRU does not want strong regions, they want to divide and conquer. If the regions were strong like some of the English and French clubs, the WRU would not be able to bully them.

The regions have been acting 'strong' - as in not listening to a blessed word the WRU say in the last few years - and are they stronger for it?

How could it be possible that the WRU would have a vested interest in the destruction of regional rugby as a going concern? How would that help their cause? It might be fun to think the WRU are bullies who just want to destroy everything good in Welsh rugby, but you'd be hard pressed to get a Judge and jury to believe it.

Money and power is success. These rugby characters can drift around the executive world... they don't need WRU to prosper and they don't need a distinct Region either. They'll chase money and success for power in whatever guise it comes in; WRU, Regions or both. Both provides the best opportunity for money, power and influence all round.

So what advantage accrues to WRU execs in bullying and breaking the will of Regions? Name the advantage for WRU that would be the disaster for Regions?

Seagultaf wrote:The WRU actions on this issue are just plain bullying, and nothing to do with what is best for Welsh Rugby. 6 months ago they tried to close down the Ospreys, who is next?

That is not actually true, it is just rumour and speculation without foundation.

What actually happened was that when the Ospreys had been threatened with a winding-up order over an outstanding tax bill the WRU looked at what they could do if the Inland Revenue did force the region bankrupt.

There was a speculative conversation between two Scarlet and a WRU board members investigating the thought that if Wales lost the Ospreys whether the Scarlets could assume a decent number of their Welsh Qualified players whilst relinquishing their regional catchment in North Wales.

Funny how so many of these rumours come out of the back doors of Scarlets committee rooms. Nothing against the Scarlets Region, the coaches and players do a superb job and their fans are wonderful people themselves, but there are some people in their board with very ulterior motives.

maestegmafia wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:The WRU actions on this issue are just plain bullying, and nothing to do with what is best for Welsh Rugby. 6 months ago they tried to close down the Ospreys, who is next?

That is not actually true, it is just rumour and speculation without foundation.

What actually happened was that when the Ospreys had been threatened with a winding-up order over an outstanding tax bill the WRU looked at what they could do if the Inland Revenue did force the region bankrupt.

There was a speculative conversation between two Scarlet and a WRU board members investigating the thought that if Wales lost the Ospreys whether the Scarlets could assume a decent number of their Welsh Qualified players whilst relinquishing their regional catchment in North Wales.

Funny how so many of these rumours come out of the back doors of Scarlets committee rooms. Nothing against the Scarlets Region, the coaches and players do a superb job and their fans are wonderful people themselves, but there are some people in their board with very ulterior motives.

Go on Maesteg, I try to get a handle on the seedy internal 'politics' of Welsh regionalism from time to time (and a complex topic it is!). But that last line of yours looks promising as a further little step into the true debate behind the public smokescreens. So tell me, what are the ulterior motives of some Scarlets boardroom guys??...privately if you want

Seagultaf wrote:

Scenario 1 is unlikely as it is not in the personal interests of WRU executives. Scenario 2 is highly likely as the majority of Welsh clubs are still jealous and feel disenfranchised by the way the regions were formed, so this scenario is preferred to having strong regions when their local club is not one of them.

That is not true, when the meeting was held by all clubs of all sizes in Wales to vote on the regions only seven of the clubs voted against, it was one of the most unanimous votes in any WRU meeting ever held.

Seagultaf wrote:The WRU are doing they best to be divisive and get the regions arguing with each other.....playground bully tactics!

I don't think thats accurate either. The WRU are very happy with the Ospreys ability to keep top players, re-organise their accounts, start initiatives for fans and be competitive.

It is reasonable to say that had the Ospreys not lost three Tighthead props and both their starting locks in the thick of the HEC they may well still be in it.

The WRU is trying to destroy the regions to encourage an anglo welsh league

100%beefy wrote:The WRU is trying to destroy the regions to encourage an anglo welsh league

Isn't it the Regions who were looking for/in talks about an anglo/welsh league?

100%beefy wrote:The WRU is trying to destroy the regions to encourage an anglo welsh league

That is absolutely ridiculous. For one the PRL would never allow it, and two the WRU do not recognise the PRL as an organisation capable of making decisions for the interest of Rugby. The PRL is an organisation of English club owners to protect their interests it is not a rugby organisation looking out for the good of the game.

There is no issue, as far as anyone I have ever spoken to is aware of, between the WRU, RRW and the Pro 12. There is little chance of Wales regions leaving the PRO12 unless a substantial new occurrence suddenly came from the Blue. A sort of BT shade of Blue.

All these wild fabrications being thrown around by the regional nut-huggers... is it really too much to ask that you back up your claims with evidence? I don't see how you have reason to complain at not being taken seriously otherwise.

Where is the proof of this deluded invention that the big bad bully that is the WRU wants to impose a tyranny over the poor, victimised regions? Or worse yet, destroy the regions altogether?

Maybe some ought to lay off the political fiction.

Basically the regions fans want success for their region or club and they want it yesterday. They use their own misfortune as a stick to beat the WRU because they think that a few million here or there now will change their fortunes forever.

It won't and it wont come from cash injections from the WRU.

Shame the world doesn't work in ways which are as simple as some people's minds then. At least now I know how trying to reason with a conspiracy theorist feels like

Knowsit17 wrote:Shame the world doesn't work in ways which are as simple as some people's minds then. At least now I know how trying to reason with a conspiracy theorist feels like

We are all passionate fans that want to see the best for our teams and for Welsh Rugby. There is a huge issue here, at least it is being dealt with and discussed by all sides.

Now, pour yourself a large drink, put your feet up and watch what happens next...!

Not so much discussion as one side accusing the other and the regions banding together in order to salvage something to their collective benefit. Hard to see how this will end without blood on the wall, in the metaphorical sense of the term of course. Still I think I'll take your advice, that's me done for another night on this particular debate.

maestegmafia wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Shame the world doesn't work in ways which are as simple as some people's minds then. At least now I know how trying to reason with a conspiracy theorist feels like

We are all passionate fans that want to see the best for our teams and for Welsh Rugby. There is a huge issue here, at least it is being dealt with and discussed by all sides.

Now, pour yourself a large drink, put your feet up and watch what happens next...!

What planet are you on Maes, yes it is a huge issue, but it is not being discussed with each other, which is what is needed.

It will have to be discussed now, everyone is at loggerheads.

maestegmafia wrote:It will have to be discussed now, everyone is at loggerheads.

I think you are totally delusional, the HC debacle is also at loggerheads for nearly a year now, are they talking NO
this has so much animosity running through it, it will take a long time before anything constructive comes out of it.

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:It will have to be discussed now, everyone is at loggerheads.

I think you are totally delusional, the HC debacle is also at loggerheads for nearly a year now, are they talking NO
this has so much animosity running through it, it will take a long time before anything constructive comes out of it.

No I think this will bring everything to the table very quickly, thing is the regions won't win, they will have to back down. Not really sure there is a debate here.

You cant run a successful business constantly asking an organising body to fund you, if the regions want to exist they have to stop begging and address their financial issues. they know that, we know that and the WRU has told them that.

What will be interesting in this is whether the Scarlets admit to dealing payers without players knowing about it...! They and RRW have not denied the accusation.

Why do you think that RRW have been in discussion with the RFU and PRL about joining the Aviva in one way or another? What would you do if you were an employer and offered a player an extension to his contract, which he turns down, would you try to sell him on now for £250000 or wait a year have him play about 6-8 games and then let him go for nothing whilst still paying his wages. What is the better business plan?
Why did the WRU agree to pay the difference and then offer him to the Blues when George has stated himself he wants to stay with the Scarlets and they say they want to keep him.
Many on here are saying lets copy the Irish model, for all the great players they have had, has that system worked at the International level IMO NO
You say earlier that the main reason the Ospreys didn't get to the QF of the HC was because of the number of injured players to our squad, what as a supposed Osprey supporter would you say when we fetch through AWJ, IE, JKING, LPEERS, do you think the WRU would allow all those players and the same would apply to the front row to stay with us if they had control of these players, what about the debacle about the Tonga match that they wouldn't sanction due to supposed player burnout, when they allowed the exact same fixture a few years earlier against Australia.

SecretFly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:The WRU actions on this issue are just plain bullying, and nothing to do with what is best for Welsh Rugby. 6 months ago they tried to close down the Ospreys, who is next?

That is not actually true, it is just rumour and speculation without foundation.

What actually happened was that when the Ospreys had been threatened with a winding-up order over an outstanding tax bill the WRU looked at what they could do if the Inland Revenue did force the region bankrupt.

There was a speculative conversation between two Scarlet and a WRU board members investigating the thought that if Wales lost the Ospreys whether the Scarlets could assume a decent number of their Welsh Qualified players whilst relinquishing their regional catchment in North Wales.

Funny how so many of these rumours come out of the back doors of Scarlets committee rooms. Nothing against the Scarlets Region, the coaches and players do a superb job and their fans are wonderful people themselves, but there are some people in their board with very ulterior motives.

Go on Maesteg, I try to get a handle on the seedy internal 'politics' of Welsh regionalism from time to time (and a complex topic it is!). But that last line of yours looks promising as a further little step into the true debate behind the public smokescreens. So tell me, what are the ulterior motives of some Scarlets boardroom guys??...privately if you want

The motives of the owners of the regions is clear.

Each of them is owed millions by the respective companies trading as Ospreys, Scarlets etc and their long term goal is to recover some of this debt.

For example, the cardiff blues owe Peter Thomas around £5million I believe.

The only hope that the owners have of recovering this money is if they keep control of the players and use them as a bargaining tool so that they can receive more money from the WRU. The other option ofcourse is to sell the players to other clubs as the scarlets have tried to do with George North and receive money in this way.

Putting George North on a WRU contract in one year's time but allowing him to play for the scarlets would not be as attractive to someone such as Huw Evans, the owner of the scarlets as selling him to say northampton now and receiving a fee of £250k. This is because he would lose control of one of his primary assets but receive no cash in return. Although George North still plays for the scarlets and the fans would be happy, he is now an asset of the WRU. Huw Evans is still owed millions by the Scarlets and he has also now lost a valuable asset in George North!

For this reason, the regions (or should I say the owners of the regions owed millions) want top ups instead of central contracts even though central contracts would ease the financial burden also.

So if you think the WRU have a moral obligation to repay the benefactors for their investment in regional rugby over the years then I suppose you support the stance of RRW.

My view is that these benefactors were not given any guarantees prior to their involvement and therefore just as would be the case in any other business, they should cut their losses and leave the scene for the good of welsh rugby as a whole.

maestegmafia wrote:Basically the regions fans want success for their region or club and they want it yesterday. They use their own misfortune as a stick to beat the WRU because they think that a few million here or there now will change their fortunes forever.

It won't and it wont come from cash injections from the WRU.

fair enough, maesteg how do you explain the enormous gulf between regional and national rugby in wales; if we could identify what causes that then we might see a solution to the issue. For me it is success in competition that leads to growth, and the Welsh side, though constantly bucking their own trend, are essentiallly moving forward.
The regions have failed in most competitions and do not have the funding they need to succeed as they are held back not least by wage caps but also by the WRU undermining them in all aspects.
What is the uptake of rugby like in Wales at grassroots rugby; is football really taking it's place as many allege? is the national side's recent glory enough to keep it all ticking along?
I believe the future of UK rugby is a UK league and because there are so many interested quangos with their own agendas that will take years to happen bu ti think it will eventiually

maestegmafia wrote:

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:It will have to be discussed now, everyone is at loggerheads.

I think you are totally delusional, the HC debacle is also at loggerheads for nearly a year now, are they talking NO
this has so much animosity running through it, it will take a long time before anything constructive comes out of it.

No I think this will bring everything to the table very quickly, thing is the regions won't win, they will have to back down. Not really sure there is a debate here.

You cant run a successful business constantly asking an organising body to fund you, if the regions want to exist they have to stop begging and address their financial issues. they know that, we know that and the WRU has told them that.

What will be interesting in this is whether the Scarlets admit to dealing payers without players knowing about it...! They and RRW have not denied the accusation.

Well you kinda can when the majority of the pot the WRU gets is directly or indirectly attributed to the regions!!

Maes the WRU have done hell of a job on you and knowsit, there is so much non sensical Lewis talk falling from your mouths I'm not ruse either of you have optinions any more!!

I'm also not sure why you duck perfectly valid questions and keep rallying the same tired WRU appointed comments over and over. I have no motive to bash the WRU at all, I just attribute blame where I see it!

Lets break this down to a few key issues?

Maes you are now head of the Ospreys, Biggar says he will not accept your best offer to renew his contract and that he's off end of next season, but Northampton offer you 250k to take him this season. The other option you have is allowing the WRU to pay him and ship him to the Scarlets, which do you take?

Beefy

It is not alledged that junior participation in football is growing and rugby declining, that is a fact! Ive seen the FAW and WFT figures and particiapation numbers have more than doubled in the last decade!!

So scrumdown you want the benefactors to leave Welsh rugby and then you want the WRU to have central contracts for, what the top 30 players in Wales, how do you then pay the aprox 100 other players in Regional rugby plus the Acadamies, plus premiership and junior rugby, do you think they will want any less than they recieve at the moment, because I can assure you the Ospreys who are this season averaging about 9000 a game, will not be getting half that if the WRU take control

Surely the WRU know they will never get their hands on the regions as they are now, they won't be able to afford to buy the benefactors out, if they however downgrade a region or 2 they could have way for 2 new regions, but they wouldn't be sly enough to get another 'region' up and running before they decide to...

OH