The Lions Squad , No selection debates. Only tactics/Combinations/startingXVs

by EngInAuck Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:26 am

LIONS SQUAD
Full-backs: Leigh Halfpenny, Stuart Hogg, Rob Kearney
Wings: Tommy Bowe, Sean Maitland, George North, Alex Cuthbert
Centres: Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Brian O'Driscoll, Manu Tuilagi
Fly-halves: Owen Farrell, Jonathan Sexton
Scrum-halves: Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs, Conor Murray
Props: Cian Healy, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Matt Stevens, Mako Vunipola, Gethin Jenkins
Hookers: Dylan Hartley, Richard Hibbard, Tom Youngs
Locks: Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O'Connell, Geoff Parling, Richie Gray, Ian Evans
Back row: Toby Faletau, Jamie Heaslip, Dan Lydiate, Sean O'Brien, Justin Tipuric, Tom Croft, Sam Warburton

Quite simply this is what you have to work with. Who would start your first game/test? Assume that Warburton earns his place in the starting XV ... somehow.

We are now United Wales

by **George Carlin** Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:30 am

1 Healy
2 Hibbard
3 Jones
4 Gray
5 Evans
6 Warbuton
7 Tipuric
8 Faletau

9 Youngs
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Tuilagi
13 O'Driscoll
14 Maitland
15 Halfpenny

Not having Best in there looks very, very weird.

by petethepete Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:32 am

1 Healy
2 Hibbard
3 Jones
4 Gray
5 O'Connell
6 O'Brien
7 Warburton
8 Faletau

9 Youngs
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Tuilagi
13 O'Driscoll
14 Maitland
15 Halfpenny

by EngInAuck Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:32 am

My starting XV for the first test:
1.Healy
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Jones
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Warburton/Tipuric
8.Faletau

9.Youngs
10.Sexton
11.North
12.Roberts
13.Tuilagi
14.Cuthbert
15.Halfpenny

by EngInAuck Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:36 am

I think its safe to say seeing as they selected huge centres(with North & Cuthbert outside of them) they are going to try and out Muscle the Ozzys in the back line.

Interesting to see people choose Tuilagi at 12.As i did not think he preformed too well there against SA in the summer ...

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:37 am

My Test XXIII based on what we have to work with:

1.Healy 2.Hibbard 3.Jones 4.Evans 5.POC 6.SOB 7.Warburton(c) 8.Falatau 9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.BOD 14.Halfpenny 15.Hogg

16.Cole 17.Hartley 18.Jenkins 19.Alan Wyn Jones 20.Heaslip 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Tuilagi

by EngInAuck Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:38 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Only having two fly halves with absolutely no squad cover is very strange indeed, as is the decision to go with Tom Youngs ahead of Rory Best.

Even as a Scot I wouldn't have selected Richie Gray ahead of Launchbury or Donnacha Ryan.

Lets keep selection opinions out of this thumbsup

otherwise this will just turn into a bickering thread. Smile

by Pat_Mustard Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:52 am

Healy
Hibbard
Jones
Gray
Evans
Warburton - (not really a fan of him at 6, but he's the captain and there's no way I can leave out Tipuric)
Tipuric
Faletau

Youngs
Sexton
North
Roberts
Tuilagi
Cuthbert
Hogg

Jenkins, Youngs, Cole, Parling, O'Brien, Phillips, Farrell, Halfpenny

by GoodinTightSpaces Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:54 am

for me with the squad he has selected he will look to go through the Aussies

by GoodinTightSpaces Tue 30 Apr 2013, 11:55 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Test XXIII based on what we have to work with:

1.Healy 2.Hibbard 3.Jones 4.Evans 5.POC 6.SOB 7.Warburton(c) 8.Falatau 9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.BOD 14.Halfpenny 15.Hogg

16.Cole 17.Hartley 18.Jenkins 19.Alan Wyn Jones 20.Heaslip 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Tuilagi

really like that team. the only player there in my opinion that has some really magic about him is Hogg

by Newsilure Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:05 pm

1 Jenkins
2 Hibbard
3 Jones
4 O'Connell
5 Evans

6 O'Brien
7 Warburton
8 Faletau

9 Phillips
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Roberts
13 O'Driscoll
14 Bowe
15 Halfpenny

16.Hartley
17.Cole
18.Vunipola
19. Jones
20. Tuperic
21. Youngs
22. Farrell (Actualy I might have to start with him as it would scare me bring him on)
23. Tuilagi

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:05 pm

I don't think there's any magic formula at this stage, and we'll just need to watch the tour unfold to see whether any unexpected combinations emerge.

My selection above is really about basics. Solid front five, mobile back row, the obvious and most attacking half back combination, the duo that worked so well together last time in the midfield and a dynamic yet defensively solid back three.

by offload Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:19 pm

I think this is what is in Gatlands head as his starter. Although after picking Stevens.....who knows Headscratch

1/2p
Bowe
Davies
O'Driscoll
North
Sexton
Phillips
Healy
Hibbard
Jones
O'Connell
AWJ
Lydiate
Warburton
Heaslip

by **LondonTiger** Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:19 pm

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:for me with the squad he has selected he will look to go through the Aussies

Agreed - hence why we may see a lot more of Mako Vunipola than we may expect.

by mikey_philVIII Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:28 pm

I'll pick a starting XV.

Halfpenny, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts, North, Sexton, Youngs, Heaslip, Warburton, O'Brien, O'Connel, Parling, Jones, Hartley, Healy.

Jenkins, Hibbard, Cole, Gray, Croft, Phillips, Farrell, Maitland or Hogg.

by R!skysports Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:30 pm

Too depressed at the moment to put a squad together, but I can tell what the tactic will be - the one that has not worked the last 7 times he tried it

Bash, bash bash, bash

no flair

Bash bash bash

bash

bash

with a little bish

by thebluesmancometh Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:31 pm

EngInAuck wrote:I think its safe to say seeing as they selected huge centres(with North & Cuthbert outside of them) they are going to try and out Muscle the Ozzys in the back line.

Interesting to see people choose Tuilagi at 12.As i did not think he preformed too well there against SA in the summer ...

He and Robshaw were immense in the summer, it's since the summer he's looked ropy!!!

by thebluesmancometh Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:32 pm

Riskysports wrote:Too depressed at the moment to put a squad together, but I can tell what the tactic will be - the one that has not worked the last 7 times he tried it

Bash, bash bash, bash

no flair

Bash bash bash

bash

bash

with a little bish

Really, when did Gatland coach the lions 7 times against Oz?

by R!skysports Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:37 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Riskysports wrote:Too depressed at the moment to put a squad together, but I can tell what the tactic will be - the one that has not worked the last 7 times he tried it

Bash, bash bash, bash

no flair

Bash bash bash

bash

bash

with a little bish

Really, when did Gatland coach the lions 7 times against Oz?

I think you know I was referring to the tactic....

by LordDowlais Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:40 pm

I think Gatland will start with BOTH Warburton and Tuperic after how well it went against England, we need speed and agility against the Aussies so it will be all speed merchants. For me this would be my first fifteen:-

1 Jenkins/Healey - I cannot decide if I was forced I would pick Healey
2 Hibbard
3 Jones
4 O'Connell
5 Evans

6 Warburton
7 Tuperic
8 Faletau- but I think Gatland will go with Heaslip

9 Phillips
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Roberts
13 O'Driscoll - not a speed merchant, but he is O'Driscoll after all.
14 Bowe/Maitland
15 Halfpenny

I cannot pick my subs as I cannot decide weather they would be midweek players who have earned their place or nailed down bench players, like Farrell or Sexton.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:41 pm

I agree with Risky. That will be the tactic, thats why he brought Murray ahead of Care.

Australia have nothing to fear.

by dummy_half Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:47 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Test XXIII based on what we have to work with:

1.Healy 2.Hibbard 3.Jones 4.Evans 5.POC 6.SOB 7.Warburton(c) 8.Falatau 9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.BOD 14.Halfpenny 15.Hogg

16.Cole 17.Hartley 18.Jenkins 19.Alan Wyn Jones 20.Heaslip 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Tuilagi

Close to my suggestion - I suspect Tipuric will start at 7 and Warburton at 6 (as worked so well against England), with SOB dropping to the bench. Otherwise I'd have Tom Youngs on the bench instead of Hartley and would be considering the case for Dan Cole ahead of Adam Jones because of his greater mobility (will depend on how poor we expect the Aussie scrum to be - do you actually need as good a scrummager as AJ to overcome them, or is Cole good enough in the set piece?).

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 30 Apr 2013, 12:56 pm

I don't see this as a big surprise. Injuries may bring in players like Best or Robshaw yet. Gatland is going for solidity in the set piece and Warburton as captain means either Tipuric misses out or he goes for an all Welsh back row and SOB misses out. The latter is the likely option and Vunipola to come off the bench.

You're never going to beat Oz for back line creativity but you can do the basics well and create pressure through ticking over the scoreboard. Gatland will go for safety first and use his big men to punch gaps in the Aussie defence. Why some people are surprised by this is beyond me. He wants percentage rugby and combinations that have familiarity.

There isn't enough creativity or guile in the back line to entertain a more attacking approach. Speed and size are what he'll plump for. Australia were more defensive minded last year due to injuries. I hope this year they are more adventurous and the clash of styles can be summed up by George North and JOC.

by mikey_philVIII Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:05 pm

Riskysports wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:
Riskysports wrote:Too depressed at the moment to put a squad together, but I can tell what the tactic will be - the one that has not worked the last 7 times he tried it

Bash, bash bash, bash

no flair

Bash bash bash

bash

bash

with a little bish

Really, when did Gatland coach the lions 7 times against Oz?

I think you know I was referring to the tactic....

And that wasn't the whole tactics. Learn the game before posting more ill informed comments.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:14 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:
Riskysports wrote:Too depressed at the moment to put a squad together, but I can tell what the tactic will be - the one that has not worked the last 7 times he tried it

Bash, bash bash, bash

no flair

Bash bash bash

bash

bash

with a little bish

Really, when did Gatland coach the lions 7 times against Oz?

I think you know I was referring to the tactic....

And that wasn't the whole tactics. Learn the game before posting more ill informed comments.

Mikey, can I suggest you learn to debate rather than being obnoxious and belittling people who dare to disagree with you.

Just a wee suggestion, relying with
"actually Wales' tactics revolved around ... etc etc"

might actually earn you some respect and get a sensible discussion.

by mikey_philVIII Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:19 pm

Thanks for your suggestion Peter. My comment was my suggestion for risky. Repeating something that is incorrect across Lions threads isn't much discussion. As you can see people are getting ready to blame Wales for everything that goes wrong already, which is no surprise.
Very Happy

by mckay1402 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:21 pm

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Jones
5. POC
6. Warbs
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. BOD
13. Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

I definitely think he will start Phillips as he'll want the physical presence around the fringe to keep the aussies honest and then bring Youngs on when there are tired legs to exploit.

I like the looks of BOD and Davies together in the centre as I think they complement each other well.

I would like to see Parling get in because he is very athletic. He was one of Englands best players in the six nations and really stood out against Wales. I think he has massive potential and see him even as a future England captain. I don't think Gatland will agree with me however and will play POC and Alun Wyn.

I don't think he'll be looking to attack them from the start. He'll begin with a conservative xv and have some open field runners on the bench, like Hogg and Youngs with Roberts to cover centers and outside backs.

I think the front row picks itself to a certain degree although I have to confess I have picked Healy on rep rather than having been impressed with his performances. I rate Gethin highly and although he is not picked for Toulon as first choice he is a top scrummager and is a monster at the breakdown. He is also a superb ball carrier so he would be my loose head starter but I don't think he will be Gats.

I really liked the Welsh Back row against England and I think Warbs as captain has to start but you can't leave out Tipuric as he's an awesome 7 so they start and Faletau is really the only option at 8.

This squad has a lot of potential and although there are areas that I'd change Is suspect I know what Gatland is thinking. Keep them tight, wear them down and then let loose. Our forwards will be hitting breakdowns like exocets and I think that will be where the series will be won or lost.

by **George Carlin** Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:26 pm

Damn - what a meteoric rise this season has been for Hibbard.

by **Notch** Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:34 pm

Riskysports wrote:Too depressed at the moment to put a squad together, but I can tell what the tactic will be - the one that has not worked the last 7 times he tried it

Bash, bash bash, bash

no flair

Bash bash bash

bash

bash

with a little bish

Yeah thats it. What I'm most disappointed about is the midweek games. Say we have Sexton and BOD in the test team.

You have Murray-Farrell-Davies-Tuilagi as your midweek midfield axis. Shocked

Where's the creativity and flair in this squad?

I guess as a rugby fan who favours game-controlling and skillful scrumhalves and creative footballing centres I was never going to get on with a Gatland selection. The shame of it is seeing guys like Maitland, Hogg, Bowe in our back three and knowing they ain't going to see the ball in space. Bosh, bosh.

by mikey_philVIII Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:35 pm

George Carlin wrote:Damn - what a meteoric rise this season has been for Hibbard.

Still the best hooker in Europe I'd say Whistle

by whocares Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:36 pm

My neutral sort of starting XV

1. Healy
2. Hibbard/youngs
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. POC
6. Warbuton
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip

9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. BOD
13. Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Hogg

Some decent ball carrying options in the forwards and a backline more than able to get moving.

by **Notch** Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:38 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:There isn't enough creativity or guile in the back line to entertain a more attacking approach. Speed and size are what he'll plump for. Australia were more defensive minded last year due to injuries. I hope this year they are more adventurous and the clash of styles can be summed up by George North and JOC.

If thats the clash of styles I'm going to find it really tough to really get behind the Lions- its the team I'm supporting versus the team playing rugby as it should be played. I'll be disappointed if the Aussies win the series, but it will be a validation of skill and imagination over power and directness- which all in all would be good for the game worldwide.

I AM disappointed because I think we've just handed them the initiative. Looking at the Lions squad, you pretty much know exactly how we are going to approach the series.

by nathan Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:39 pm

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:for me with the squad he has selected he will look to go through the Aussies

That's the welsh game plan so I can easily see it being the same for the lions.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:40 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:Thanks for your suggestion Peter. My comment was my suggestion for risky. Repeating something that is incorrect across Lions threads isn't much discussion. As you can see people are getting ready to blame Wales for everything that goes wrong already, which is no surprise.

It was the "learn the game" jibe which was unncessary Mikey. Play the ball not the man.

The overall selection is heavy on bosh merchants - which can be a way to beat Australia. But it works for South Africa a lot less often than you'd expect. Personally I'd like to have seen Scott or 12trees go, there's some exciting back 3 Lions players who need ball (plus I'm a kiwi and I always enjoy seeing a traditional 2nd 5/8th play Wink

).

1. Healy
2. Hibbard
3. Jones/Cole
4. Jones
5. POC/Gray
6. O'Brien
7. Warburton (would prefer Tipuric but the captain has to start)
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. BOD
13. Davies
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

vs
1. Robinson
2. Fa'ainga
3. Slipper
4. Doh, off to a meeting, will add in the locks later
5.
6. Gill
7. Hooper
8. Higgenbotham

9. Will Genia
10. Quade Cooper
11. Digby Ioane
12. James O'Connor
13. Adam Ashley Cooper
14. Israel Folau
15. Jesse Mogg

Will be interesting

by mikey_philVIII Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:41 pm

You think Deans will leave out Dennis and Douglas? Both very big forwards.

by Geordie Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:48 pm

If Gatland thinks the Lions can just outmuscle Australia hes sadly mistaken.

They play SA and NZ many times every year..they can cope with Physicality.

Now i rate the backs we have highly...North isnt just a basher...he can play as can Cuthbert...but i hope the guys inside have the ability to mix the game and bring those into the correct lines etc...

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:50 pm

Healy-hibbard-jones
Poc-Gray
Wardburton-heaslip-tipuric
Youngs-sexton
Bod-tuilagi
North-Hogg-maitland

Youngs-Jenkins-vunipola-awj-sob-Murray-Farrell-halfpenny

by No 7&1/2 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:51 pm

1. Healy 2. Hibbard 3. Jones
4. Gray 5. POC
6. Croft 7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Youngs 10. Sexton 11. North
12. BOD 13. Tuilagi 14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

Obviously won't be this as he has to start Warburton...

by westisbest Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:53 pm

Healy
Hibbard
Jones
Gray
POC
SOB
Warburton
Faletau

Youngs
Sexton
North
Roberts
BOD
Bowe
1/2penny(just ahead of Kearney).

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 30 Apr 2013, 1:53 pm

They can be beaten up front Notch. They're not the complete side. I think Gatland could utilize halfpenny better but he's going with what he thinks is the most effective. I can understand the disappointment but who would you select to play the game you want?

by Golden Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:02 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Test XXIII based on what we have to work with:

1.Healy 2.Hibbard 3.Jones 4.Evans 5.POC 6.SOB 7.Warburton(c) 8.Falatau 9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.BOD 14.Halfpenny 15.Hogg

16.Cole 17.Hartley 18.Jenkins 19.Alan Wyn Jones 20.Heaslip 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Tuilagi

Really like this team, think its capable of playing some good rugby.

I think BOD and Davies could make a good combination though.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:23 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:You think Deans will leave out Dennis and Douglas? Both very big forwards.

Doh, forgot about Douglas. Deans has a few tough choices in the back row,

This time last year I was raving about Dennis. But he massively failed to make the step up in the 4-Nations

Timani off the bench as impact lock is very good, without Sharp this year I'm not sure who'll play 5. Horwill is fit so will fill 1 berth, as well as possibly regaining the captaincy

by **Pal Joey** Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:42 pm

Pity about McMeniman's injury but probably Timani or Simmons (one off the bench) to pair with Horwill.

by rainbow-warrior Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:53 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:Thanks for your suggestion Peter. My comment was my suggestion for risky. Repeating something that is incorrect across Lions threads isn't much discussion. As you can see people are getting ready to blame Wales for everything that goes wrong already, which is no surprise.

After 2005 one country can't blame any other Smile

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 30 Apr 2013, 2:54 pm

rainbow-warrior wrote:
mikey_philVIII wrote:Thanks for your suggestion Peter. My comment was my suggestion for risky. Repeating something that is incorrect across Lions threads isn't much discussion. As you can see people are getting ready to blame Wales for everything that goes wrong already, which is no surprise.

After 2005 one country can't blame any other

True.

Sorry we were so good in 2005 Wink

by fa0019 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 3:24 pm

I would say a AUS lineup could look like the following

Pack
Robinson, Moore, Alexander, Douglas, Horwill, Higginbottom, Smith, Auelua

The lions won't march the front five. Higginbottom vs. Croft will be interesting in the lineout (if both selected). The backrow looks pretty awesome though. I think the lions will have their work cut out. Smith was again very impressive on the weekend and Auelua... well he's just lining up body bags at the moment.

Backline
Genia, Barnes, Ioane, O'Connor, Ashley-Cooper, Mogg, Beale.

Folau won't be ready in time, may make the bench but will be a risk esp. in defence. Cooper looks out of favour and Barnes and O'Connor look like they could be a decent combination at 10-12, a good mix.

I would say on paper, AUS are a superior side. Man for man they are a very very strong unit. They have a decent front five which will hold their own and the backrow looks stronger.

The backline has so many strengths its tricky to see where the weaknesses lie... high ball, they are the masters esp. Beale.
Tactical kicking with Barnes, Beale and O'Connor will mean they have good options and no real weakness to target.

They aren't the biggest backline so Gatland may try this but given his record vs. Wales and other route 1 nations vs. AUS is dire I think this could be a deadly trap.

12 months ago I would have said the Lions could have fancied their chances but now the task will be of everest proportions. AUS are not the best team in the world but by the end of the season I think they will be pushing for that mantle.

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 30 Apr 2013, 4:20 pm

I think Australia are often given the least credit out of the 3n sides. I am looking forward to playing them along with Sa as injuries have yet to play a big part. The rc will be much more competitive and that will only be good for Nz. They need to be tested more and they got away with too many games last year.

The Lions will be competitive and of course they can win. It's going to be a huge ask as it always is. Gatland has to find a way to emphasize that this is a lions team and that won't be easy. But it needs to be done.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 4:34 pm

I'll post up here tomorrow when the frustration and disapointment have simmered down a wee bit. thumbsup

by Jhamer25 Tue 30 Apr 2013, 4:36 pm

1. Gethin
2. Hibbard
3. Adam
4. Alyn Wyn
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Sean O'Brian
7. Sam Warburton
8. Jamies Heaslip

9. Mike
10. Johnny
11. George
12. Jamie Roberts or Manu (not sure yet)
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Tom Youngs, 17.Cian Healey, 18.Dan Cole, 19.Geoff Parling, 20.Justin Tipuric, 21. Connor Murray, 22. Owen Farell, 23. Alex Cuthbert

Gutted for Rory best and Robshaw, also really wanetd ben morgan to go (would have started if not got injured)

by R!skysports Tue 30 Apr 2013, 4:40 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:Thanks for your suggestion Peter. My comment was my suggestion for risky. Repeating something that is incorrect across Lions threads isn't much discussion. As you can see people are getting ready to blame Wales for everything that goes wrong already, which is no surprise.

It is not about blaming Wales. I think they have some fantastic players. My concern we have gone for a plan A that lacks (IMO) creativity. Our Plan B seems to be the same as plan A with the second choice bosher

I would really like to have some real creative mid field players (who are not likely to be be injured by the time the test come along) to at least give us a chance to mix things up

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