Will the power game be good enough against a much improved Australia?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10038919/British-and-Irish-Lions-2013-questions-will-be-asked-if-Wales-plus-others-fail-on-summer-tour-to-Australia.html

I don't believe the B & I Lions can match the Aussies for skill but will the inevitable power game be sufficient to beat them?

I don't believe Gats has even given the squad a chance of an alternative game plan with his picks & I agree with BMs comments. Has Gats boxed himself into a corner with the choice of captain & lack of playmakers?

Two things on selecting a captain.

1. Perhaps announcing or selecting a captain should only come after the squad has convened and the coach has had a week with them in preparation to the tour.

2. I agree the form of the captain should not be in question and it should be the guy you will ink in your forward pack without hesitation.

The 2 flyhalves.

I am wondering whether Gatland isn't in a position where his rating of other fly halves are such that he doesn't believe they are simply not good enough and will rather have someone like Mogg take over if necessary. If that is the case then it does make sense not to take more. After all if you don't have faith in someone why select him?

Power alone is not going to be enough, South Africa has proven beyond any doubt, Brawn does not beat brains.

Then as far as selection of the squad, and it has been said already on other threads, Gatland selected who he believes is best, there are really only a few contentious selections and perhaps a few that are unlucky, but isn't that the case with any selections? We all have our favourites and are upset when they aren't selected.

Are there really that many contentious issues with the squad he selected.

For me the odds ones are the omissions of Bets and Robshaw and only 2 fly halfs.

The rest was pretty much as expected.

Given the selection it will be interesting to see who is left standing after the S15 games.

The SH refs for those games will not allow power scrums or mauls to gather momentum and the Oz sides will be far too clever with their gamesmanship.
Thus the smart money will be on the forwards cancelling each other out and the Oz backs being superior, will be the difference, as Wales have encountered in their several matches.

That however is just one theory. The way the game is going, the refs will play a huge part.

I think you've answered your own question to some extent. The Lions must search their own strengths and I do not believe there is the creativity in the backs to take on Australia who have most of their skilled backs to call on.

If the lions take Australia on at their own game they will lose. Very few teams can compete with Oz in those terms. It makes sense to look for an advantage. The power game though is a flexible concept. Bish bash bosh does not do it justice. The Lions must accumulate points.how they come is irrelevant. Despite what people think the Aussie defence keeps them in games. Very few times they are able to use their firepower out wide as nz can with many teams. They score when it matters.

What the lions must do if they aren't able to break the deadlock is to find a way to score when it counts. That is what Oz are not given enough credit for. Which goes back to the op's question. What to do if the power game is not working. But the answer is to tweak the power game. Decoy runners with north coming off his wing and creating space away from that stack area with a cross chip. It seems power has only one way but there are many different forms much like counter attacking. The key is being smart and composed. That is more difficult with untried combinations but if prepared well by no means impossible.

Recwatcher, you are mistaken with the Mauls, the mauls have been a very effective weapon for a good number of the Super XV teams, not just the South African teams, the Reds have been employing it to some extent as well, opting not to go for goal, but rather go for the line out drive.

The Burmbies have also been successful with it, as well as the Waratahs who has used it.

What is important though, because of the regularity with which the Mauls have been used during this season, the Wallabies will have had plenty of experience as to how to counter it, so they will be prepared for it.

One aspect that the Lions must be aware of, the attacking team gets the calls, right through the Super XV thus far, the defending teams are dealt with harshly at the breakdowns, the SH referees want to see quick ruck ball and do not tolerate interference, the Pilferers has one go only, and that is something Gatland will have to imprint on his loosies, they will not be allowed a second chance.

As for power scrums, the match Crusaders vs Rebels showed that power scrums are rewarded, not penalised.

Biltong wrote:

One aspect that the Lions must be aware of, the attacking team gets the calls, right through the Super XV thus far, the defending teams are dealt with harshly at the breakdowns, the SH referees want to see quick ruck ball and do not tolerate interference, the Pilferers has one go only, and that is something Gatland will have to imprint on his loosies, they will not be allowed a second chance.

One thing I'm sure will happen if 'interpretations' are markedly different in that area...and if Lions coaches believe they are doing things legally and still getting overly pinged..... official tough worded complaints sent to ref headquarters.
Besides, the Lions squad will have had plenty of time to work out what gets allowed and disallowed during the lesser games.
If they aren't up to speed by Test time, if they are getting caught out at Test time, then they'll have only themselves to blame for bad research.

I don't think you'd call too many of the Lions backs "mercurial" but that doesn't make them uncreative.

The backs for the first Test in 2009 were Phillips, Jones, BOD, Roberts, Monye, Bowe & Byrne (Kearney coming on for him in the 38th minute). Nothing especially creative about that line-up. However, we ended up outscoring the Springboks three tries to two during that loss. While we hoped to have the edge in the scrums, we got crushed there and looked much sharper in the backs.

The players Gatland has chosen are all capable of creativity. The question is whether the coach will encourage them to demonstrate that side or else demand they follow a more limited game-plan.

the last test ref is Romain Poite who is quite neutral when it comes to breakdown.

also in another telegraph article, it is mentionned that one of the reason that Wabruton was picked as captain is because he has good relationship with referees and in particular Craig Joubert (2nd test ref)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/stevejames/10037779/British-and-Irish-Lions-2013-Sam-Warburton-can-influence-referees-says-coach-Warren-Gatland.html

whocares wrote: the last test ref is Romain Poite who is quite neutral when it comes to breakdown.

also in another telegraph article, it is mentionned that one of the reason that Wabruton was picked as captain is because he has good relationship with referees and in particular Craig Joubert (2nd test ref)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/stevejames/10037779/British-and-Irish-Lions-2013-Sam-Warburton-can-influence-referees-says-coach-Warren-Gatland.html

Not so sure that's what Gatland thinks or if it's just the beginning of his 'charm' offensive in the psychological warfare that has already begun in both Hemispheres.

In a way that might work to Lions disadvantage as the Aussies will be prodding refs to prove Warburton's 'special relationship' with them isn't true. Again, if the Aussies now choose to see preferential treatment in games, they'll bring up Gatland's comments to target allegedly loved-up Warburton refs

Sa are not the same in the backs as Oz rugby fan. Creative is not the word but their awareness of space and summing up their best options at pace are their strengths. Scoring tries is not always an indicator of creativity.

To me Tipuric is a key player because if the lions can come close to any sort of forward ascendancy he is a key linking man to get the ball out wide behind the Aussie defensive line. The lions can do that a number of ways but the key is getting over the advantage line and getting quick ball. Intricate back line moves are unlikely but using power and pace combined with open spaces are a good option and Gatland has a squad that can get that through power. But it must be power with that purpose in mind: attack. Not to kick away ball or to retain possession. They must use the ball wisely and there are a lot of options without getting complicated.

Agree re Tipuric, not often you see a primarily ball carrying 7 from the NH. The Oz backline if picked now is looking the best of any side in terms of options and attack out wide...talent to burn. Deans must be feeling pretty good at the mo...

I've not seen the referee panels for the tests, but this article seems to insinuate that Craig Joubert will be one of those test referees. If this is true then the Lions have no chance!

yes all referees have been confirmed by now (see below)

Tour Matches

1 June 2013
19:30 HKT (UTC+8) Barbarians – British and Irish Lions Hong Kong Stadium, Hong Kong
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)

5 June 2013
18:00 AWST (UTC+8) Western Force – British and Irish Lions Patersons Stadium, Perth
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)

8 June 2013
19:30 AEST (UTC+10) Queensland Reds – British and Irish Lions Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)

11 June 2013
19:30 AEST (UTC+10) NSW Queensland Country – British and Irish Lions Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)

15 June 2013
19:30 AEST (UTC+10) New South Wales Waratahs – British and Irish Lions Sydney Football Stadium, Sydney
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)

18 June 2013
19:30 AEST (UTC+10) ACT Brumbies – British and Irish Lions Canberra Stadium, Canberra
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)

25 June 2013
19:30 AEST (UTC+10) Melbourne Rebels – British and Irish Lions AAMI Park, Melbourne
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)

First Test 22 June 2013
20:00 AEST (UTC+10) Australia – British and Irish Lions Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)

Second Test 29 June 2013
20:00 AEST (UTC+10) Australia – British and Irish Lions Etihad Stadium, Melbourne
Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)

Third Test 6 July 2013
20:00 AEST (UTC+10) Australia – British and Irish Lions ANZ Stadium, Sydney
Referee: Romain Poite (France)

I have no idea what Gatland is talking about when he refers to this Warbs-Joubert relationship. Unless he is talking about Wales vs Ireland at the RWC (which I don't remember) because he would certainly not be talking about the other 3 games officiated by him since, games in which we've suffered at the hands (and whistle) of Joubert.

The Saint wrote:
I have no idea what Gatland is talking about when he refers to this Warbs-Joubert relationship. Unless he is talking about Wales vs Ireland at the RWC (which I don't remember) because he would certainly not be talking about the other 3 games officiated by him since, games in which we've suffered at the hands (and whistle) of Joubert.

Maybe they had coffee together.

The power game will not be enough to win. We do have the players to challenge Aus on skill and creativity but some won't be there and it would appear Gats will not play that way.

This is why I am disappointed in the lions selection. Too little creativity, no plan B

TJ wrote:The power game will not be enough to win. We do have the players to challenge Aus on skill and creativity but some won't be there and it would appear Gats will not play that way.

This is why I am disappointed in the lions selection. Too little creativity, no plan B

so who shoul dhave been included and excluded and what would your game plan be with those players you feel have been left out

Ireland beat Australia in the RWC by strangling them up front, defending like madmen and using absolutely no creativity whatsoever.

However I think Australia completely underestimated Ireland and weren't ready for the ferocious intensity. They'll surely be pumped up for the British & Irish Lions. Or the Poms & chums, as they probably see them.

Its just a very highly-sponsored traditional jaunt to the (ex) Southern Colonies lads. Please don't take it too serious.

The next series should be an NH v SH affair. Bring in the French and the Italians to add some colour, class and new interest.

The Lions are slowly dying as a concept, unless it is shaken up and brought into the 20th, never mind the 21st century, it will die.

The Empire is long gone.

On the OP, if Oz don't win this series, then there is something seriously wrong with them.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ireland beat Australia in the RWC by strangling them up front, defending like madmen and using absolutely no creativity whatsoever.

.

Theres the winning gameplan in a nutshell. Deviate half a letter from that sentence and it'll all be gone...

Taylorman wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ireland beat Australia in the RWC by strangling them up front, defending like madmen and using absolutely no creativity whatsoever.

.

Theres the winning gameplan in a nutshell. Deviate half a letter from that sentence and it'll all be gone...

What's the point in even watching, if that' s the case?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Sa are not the same in the backs as Oz rugby fan. Creative is not the word but their awareness of space and summing up their best options at pace are their strengths. Scoring tries is not always an indicator of creativity.

To me Tipuric is a key player because if the lions can come close to any sort of forward ascendancy he is a key linking man to get the ball out wide behind the Aussie defensive line. The lions can do that a number of ways but the key is getting over the advantage line and getting quick ball. Intricate back line moves are unlikely but using power and pace combined with open spaces are a good option and Gatland has a squad that can get that through power. But it must be power with that purpose in mind: attack. Not to kick away ball or to retain possession. They must use the ball wisely and there are a lot of options without getting complicated.

Do you fancy joining the coaching team.

He's not available, he has other committments plotting the ABs strategy to beat the Froggy eye gougers.

What? You're trying to get more Kiwis involved?

You can but ask.


I'd be careful on the 'gouging' stuff.

Just saying.

No the power game will get us as far as we got v Aus in 2001, they need only work out how to slow ball, concede rucks and defend the gainline. While i expect us to be much fitter than 2001 and not to throw soft interception tries - ahem Sir Jonny- i cannot see how we have any option than to bring huge wings into the 3/4s and play inside out round the flaming corner a la Wales. But i expect the pack to be the main focus of attack the entire pack to be carriers and only when the aussie pack is beaten into submission will the pwoer game work. It did for england in march and could work if aus, the most versatile rugby team in the world, can't figure out how to deal with it

Creativity is certainly subjective but the culmination of new pairings could ignite exciting partnerships that feed off each other.

Jon Davies and Brian O'Driscoll could really be something.

I don't think Gatland would like another kiwi in the mix. Unless the results were like 2005 and then I'd be welcome... as a scapegoat.

For the first time in a while there is an actual thought provocing question asked on here, so congrats Trev, for the first time in ages I have had to actually consider an answer.

Firstly I'm not sure Aus are that improved yet, they have been injury hit/poor for a few years, this seasons S15 Aus teams (Brumbies/Reds) have been going well, but they generally do, not much has changed IMHO.

The int team still has the issues with Cooper and Beales recent behaviour (again) injuries to key players (Pocock being a massive one) and a disjointed look to it.

Yes they have managed to get over the line V Wales in recent attempts, but IMHO Wales had Aus on a plate waiting for them numerous times, including while on the plane to Aus in the summer (Aus all but conceded they were terrified by resting players V Scotland for Wales) yet Wales management and selection was poor enough to lose games where they were the better and stronger squad by a margin, the same mistakes were made a few months later in the AI's, and a distinctly average 6N campaign was rescued by the wonder result V England.

Aus record over the other nations is nowhere near as impressive, so IMHO it's safe to say Wales has the best squad in the NH, and are the strongest team but also have the coaching team with the ability to be 2nd rate at times.

Then we move onto the 'power game'...

Gatlands selection of a certain few has been surprising, Lydiate and Crofts mobility and specialised skillsets have been picked over the far more rounded and better form of Robshaw and Brown, as has Vunipolas and Youngs dynamism been selected over better options such as Paul James, Grant, Best and Owens, even Jenkins selection could be attributed to his natural athletisism.

These selections are far more telling than the supposed 'power' selections as the likes of Roberts, Tuilagi, Phillips, North... are, purely because in truth these players havn't been selected for their power, but the fact they are the best options, and stand out players in their positions, I would go as far to say that everyone over 6'2 in the lions backline could be replaced with players under that height but it wouldn't be less powerfull, it would be a lesser backline. Ashton and Brown being subbed in for North and Cuthbert wouldn't = less power, it would = less ability! Same with replacing Phillips and Roberts with Care and Scott = lesser performances!!

Gatland like any good coach will play a gameplan to suit his strengths in the squad, which means we will see the big backs charging down the 10 channells now and then, we will see them trying to force the physical presence on the likes of Genia, JOC, Ioane, Mogg, Beale, because thats where their strengths are, what we don't want to see is Roberts and Tuilagi making 30 yard behind the back passes and trying to outflair the Aus backline!!

So to sum up I think Gatland has chosen a mobile pack, that will get around the park, utilise the big backline and play a very abbrassve, but hard working attack based around keeping mistakes at a minimum and alllowing for 1/2p to sit deep and act as the safety net, I expect to see plenty of safe crash balls from big backs, followed by wide wrap around runs in the dynamic forwards trying to drg the Aus pack touch to touch. The lions gamesplan will be similar to Aus up front, but bludgen in the backline, will it work? I hope so, and thats why I'm so excited to find out!!

The backline does look a little restricted in the type of game plan he can play however. Farrell has proven he cannot run a backline without additional support of a 2nd receiver... there is no second receiver on tour (saying Hogg can do it is a joke... 10 mins since school is not a genuine second receiver, a few mins in club rugby will not suffice for a lions test series).

Even Saracens throw him into the outside centre position when Hodgson plays... because he is a better 10 both ball in hand and hand to foot.

Not many other options for the Lions bar the up and under, the inside ball and the crash ball when he's in charge.

fa0019 wrote:The backline does look a little restricted in the type of game plan he can play however. Farrell has proven he cannot run a backline without additional support of a 2nd receiver... there is no second receiver on tour (saying Hogg can do it is a joke... 10 mins since school is not a genuine second receiver, a few mins in club rugby will not suffice for a lions test series).

Even Saracens throw him into the outside centre position when Hodgson plays... because he is a better 10 both ball in hand and hand to foot.

Not many other options for the Lions bar the up and under, the inside ball and the crash ball when he's in charge.

Disagree Farrell is the problem, he has a lovely mixture ball to boot, if Aus rush he will certainly chip in behind for the centres, he can cross field, play the corners and his bomb is huge (Roberts, Cuthbert and North love a bomb).

Hogg is a good distributor, as is 1/2p who both grew up playing 10, and I disagree Goode was what Farrell needed for England, it was just a tactic Lancaster liked to employ.

What Farrell won't do is take the ball to the line, and play others in very risky plays that Gatland doesn't favour anyway. Sextons game for Ireland is far less risky than it is at Leinster, and I suspect Gats will avoid Sextons natural instincts of the loop pass and recieve, half break and offload, and general open play, Gatland prefers his 10's to stay on their feet for the strike play to come, whereas Sextons instincts are to constantly scan for opportunities to break the line.

Aus have arguably the most talented backline in world rugby and any risky play that doesn't come off can result in a try, Gatland knows this.

The Lions are far more dynamic than people are giving them credit for - We will earn the right to go wide, we will also drive it through the middle where the Aus weakness is for me. However, to suggest the Lions squad is just bish bash bosh is a little naive and stereotypical.

France won against australia by running the ball, not kicking it. arguably it wasnt their best back line in november but still having a fullback sitting deep against them like wales did recently doesnt not seem very appropriate in my opinion... if they also dont let sexton break the gain line then the risk is that their attacks will be very predictable...

Why pass it between four or five players - just for the fun of the swash'n'buckle - if you can pass it between two and they can push through for a stike running score?

It might not be tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, finally-a-goal Barcelona stuff but it isn't bish, bash, bosh either.

The All Blacks are pretty predictable but they seem to do ok

Predictable as in nine out of ten times they'll win!

The ABs are predictable in terms of doing the basics well but at pace. They are also not afraid to counter attack with the purpose of finding open space. I agree with who cares in having Halfpenny not entering the attacking line is a negative. It doesn't have to happen all the time but it needs to happen when the situation calls for it. It's like having a trophy wife just to look at her. Get your money's worth because make no mistake it will cost you.

The same applies with the forwards. The rolling maul, the pick and drive are all weapons as much as the offload and linking up with the backs but they must all be used when the situation calls for it. Not working to a predictable plan.

SecretFly wrote:Predictable as in nine out of ten times they'll win!

8.3, lets not go overboard.

Sorry, I stand corrected, Biltong. Won't happen again

Consider yourself reprimanded.

depends which team is playing... 10/10 against some/most.

Those nasty mean boks bring down the average. Go stand in the corner biltong and think about what you've done.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Those nasty mean boks bring down the average. Go stand in the corner biltong and think about what you've done.

If it was only me.

No the collective you. You might all need a big corner though.

I know you meant that the you in your post was the collective you and not the me you, but you must understand I wish it was me, and not the collective me, but the only me.

If that makes any makes sense watsoever.

I know that you know that I know what you I meant. I just don't want you to get lonely. You've already experienced too much isolation as it is.

Touche (with the little hyphen on the e, don't know how to do it.)

IMO its the halfbacks and centres that are the real issue.; None of them have that spark to create space. The forwards should win plenty of ball, we have the finishers inthe back 3. We have no one to put them into space.

So I would be looking to a Midfeild of Care, Sexton, Scott, JD2 to provide that bit extra. i fear Philpps, Sexton Tuilagi, Roberts

I want quick ball and I want backs to be quick - over the ground and between the ears. I want players who can pass, who can vary the game plan and whoa re not afraind to attack. I want to see the back 3 running from deep

We do have the players to play a distributive game and get the balls to the wings I think - the fear is just that Gatland wont pick them! Personally I'd like to see Davies and BOD play in the centres as that gives us two players who are more than capable of making a break themselves and putting another player through one. Add in Youngs and Sexton who both offer a threat to the line plus good distribution and we have the players to give the back three ball.

With the likes of North, Healy, O'Brien, Cuthbert, Hibbard, Gray, etc available elsewhere in the team we wouldn't be lacking big runners when needed.

1.Healy 2.Hibbard 3.Jones 4.Gray 5.O'Connell 6.O'Brien 7.Warburton 8.Heaslip
9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Davies 13.O'Driscoll 14.Bowe 15.Halfpenny
16.Youngs 17.Jenkins 18.Cole 19.Wyn Jones 20.Croft 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Hogg

Thinking about attack, above side wouldn't be lacking in big runners up the middle (Healy, O'Brien, Gray, North), good gain makers in the tight (Hibbard, O'Connell, Heaslip) or distributors in the backline. I can't realistically see Gatland going for it however.