Djokovic Still Has A Lot To Learn

As always Djokovic was classy when the last ball was hit... but

Those disputed line calls... Castle said something like "you don't get to number one by being an angel" but you won't win any fans either.

ironically clapping the crowd when they cheer for your opponent will get whistles. It's seriously un classy. Just think would Federer or Nadal do it.

Taking an MTO at break point is never a good idea unless it is really necessary and can't wait until the games finished.

Don't bring religion into a tennis match. Hitting a ball over a net is not important enough to call for religious intervention. The Madrid crowd certainly didn't approve.

Also if you happen to beat the home favorite at a tournament it is never a good idea to rip your shirt off afterwoods and jump about on cars afterwords. (no matter how pleased you are). People remember and might decide to support your opponent.

The crowd will nearly always support a younger player playing great tennis against the number one player. They will want them to win and not you. Learn to deal with it.

None of this matters if a player doesn't mind being a bad guy. Djokovic doesn't want to be the bad guy as the evidence at the end of the match shows. He may have a lot to learn and some of it won't be easy but IMO he can do it.

No doubt he'll be studying videos of Nadal's Wimbledon matches vs. Del Potro 2011 and Rosol 2012 to gain that touch of on-court graciousness in adversity that's missing.

Or indeed how to throw water bottles at ball girls with such a graceful back-hand toss

or not talking to someone anymore as they are empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

Djoke swearing yesterday at the public https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=y9YbwM57scA

Over 18's only!!

Djokovic and Nadal both the same. Classless barbarians, although Djokovic has the redeeming factor of being gracious in defeat (though after using dirty tricks in an attempt to win).

chydremion, you are forgetting Federer too. Walking on court with those stupid blazers and cardigans at wimbledon with number 7 (number of victories) on it one year, so arrogant. Not to mention taking digs at djokovic for being lucky with slap shot at US open press conference (the famous return winner), talking about how that is how djokovic learned how to play the game, taking lucky swings at shots when out of the match. Came across as the ultimate sore loser !

slashermcguirk wrote:chydremion, you are forgetting Federer too. Walking on court with those stupid blazers and cardigans at wimbledon with number 7 (number of victories) on it one year, so arrogant. Not to mention taking digs at djokovic for being lucky with slap shot at US open press conference (the famous return winner), talking about how that is how djokovic learned how to play the game, taking lucky swings at shots when out of the match. Came across as the ultimate sore loser !

Sore loser? Yes, occasionally. But at least Federer doesn't use dirty tactics to win a match. Fair play in match is far more important than interview comments (often in the heat of the moment). There's a reason Federer get's voted Sportmanship Award every year.

Djokovic has lost 126 matches in his career, Nadal 124. Its remarkable, and sad really, how people are going to use a hand ful of examples to state these guys are sore losers

Argh... the usual my-dad-is-bigger.

There should be a running list (instead of such articles) in a spreadsheet on v2 that is perhaps maintained by the moderators, which has every tennis player and their respective crimes against humanity (at least the Tennis spectators part of humanity) that has been eternally wronged and requires justice (or revenge) as the case may be.

kingraf wrote:Djokovic has lost 126 matches in his career, Nadal 124. Its remarkable, and sad really, how people are going to use a hand ful of examples to state these guys are sore losers

This thread is not about sore losers, but about their behaviour during a match.

kingraf wrote:Djokovic has lost 126 matches in his career, Nadal 124. Its remarkable, and sad really, how people are going to use a hand ful of examples to state these guys are sore losers

It's a grand tradition that started with the Fed-hatahs

laverfan wrote:There should be a running list (instead of such articles) in a spreadsheet on v2 that is perhaps maintained by the moderators, which has every tennis player and their respective crimes against humanity (at least the Tennis spectators part of humanity) that has been eternally wronged and requires justice (or revenge) as the case may be.

I nominate Socal to do Federer's list!

Hawkeye can do Andy's (how many pages can threads grow to?)

To be fair, djokovic applauded dimitrov's good shots on a number of occasions and was incredibly sporting in defeat after the match. To label him as not being sporting is far from the truth.

slashermcguirk wrote:chydremion, you are forgetting Federer too. Walking on court with those stupid blazers and cardigans at wimbledon with number 7 (number of victories) on it one year, so arrogant. Not to mention taking digs at djokovic for being lucky with slap shot at US open press conference (the famous return winner), talking about how that is how djokovic learned how to play the game, taking lucky swings at shots when out of the match. Came across as the ultimate sore loser !

It was a lucky shot and it's awesome to hear a pro player especially one as accomplished as Fed speculating over what could be going on in a fellow pros head. He even said he served the same ball at Djokovic at wimbledon to see if he could do it again and if he could then he would have had the greatest respect for him. Even though it was lucky, massive credit to Djokovic for going for it and making it.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:It was a lucky shot and it's awesome to hear a pro player especially one as accomplished as Fed speculating over what could be going on in a fellow pros head.

When a player goes for a difficult shot and pulls off that shot, it's not luck, it's a great shot.

Novak has hit similar returns loads of times down the years. If he'd hit the same shot at, say, 3-3, 15-0, nobody would be saying it was lucky. It would just be a great returner hitting a great return.

I don't get why that return is so commonly considered as lucky when, for example, Fed's backhand pass on Rafa's Championship point in the W08 set 4 tie break is presumed to be skill.

Surely Novak deserves the same assumption?

Novak right after the match would disagree with you. I don't think he hits the return with the same wild all or nothing swing, in the same way Fed's backhand pass wasn't all or nothing when he hit it on match point or the other times he hit it.

Djoko himself said it was lucky didn't he? I think he meant that he had already decided to just go for it on the return and hope for the best. So skill and luck, maybe?

This was supposed to be about Djokovic. Funny that some want to talk about Federer's clothing lines here. I like talking about Federer's choice of clothing too. I set up a thread at the same time as this one to do so.

https://www.606v2.com/t43881-nike-know-how-to-spot-a-winner

slashermcguirk wrote:To be fair, djokovic applauded dimitrov's good shots on a number of occasions and was incredibly sporting in defeat after the match. To label him as not being sporting is far from the truth.

Djokovic always behaves well in defeat. It is something I admire about him. But I was talking about his behavior during the match. IMO it wasn't good and I have since learned I am certainly not the only one who judged it that way.

Jahu wrote:Djoke swearing yesterday at the public https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=y9YbwM57scA

Over 18's only!!

I knew he was ironically clapping the crowd because they were supporting Dimitrov and really even that's not on but I didn't know about this. He swore AT the crowd. This video has been removed but I presume it shows what I've seen discussed elsewhere. Basically he was telling the crowd (in Serbian) to do something crude. The thing is the crowd are people who have paid to watch him. He has no right to insult them. I don't know if there are specific rules against this but if there aren't there should be. Performers should not be allowed to insult the audience. It doesn't matter that it was in Serbian either. People are not stupid. They will not respect him if they are treated with such blatant disrespect.

It's something he did at IW's too. This time it was because he didn't get a good spot on the schedule... Roger and Rafa took the prime spots. I like Djokovic but he's going to have to learn that he can't demand that people watch and support him. He has to earn it. Winning matches isn't enough to do this. I hope Djokovic reflects on some of his recent behavior. He's not stupid and maybe he will learn something.

His skill gave him a better chance than most of making it. He tried something similar on match point against Murray and it went long. I think it was lucky and he had given up at that point and Fed should've won but given how the other semi went I'm glad he didn't and the tournament had the best possible ending for me.

Didn't Novak say something to the effect of (paraphrasing) 'I closed my eyes and took a swing' regarding that shot. That is what I remember in the post match interview. I am the emancipator.



emancipator

ps - he does the ironic clapping thing quite a lot. He did it against Fed at the USO when he felt Fed shanked a winner. On that occasion he sarcastically clapped the frame of his racquet.

Overall, however, this article is ridiculous coming from a Nadal fan. Novak is far more sporting on-court and during matches, as a general rule, than Nadal (who will basically do anything he can to disrupt his opponent).

Is it a crime to get a line call wrong. Players do it all the time, so do the officials by the way. He gives his opponent more line calls than anyone I have seen at this level. Just to clue in hawkeye people do make bad calls even the players. As for the fans they were on him and looking for an excuse to get on Nadal's top rival. I don't begrudge them a bit of razzing, and I don't begrudge Djoko for a little fight back, it is part of the game. He shouldn't have let the crowd get to him I agree with that. But the crowd was terrible and he had a little back and forth with some of them good for him and hey they paid their money they don't have to be nice to everyone all the time.

socal1976.

What do you think of Djokovic shouting at the crowd? I presume you know what he shouted and that he's done it before? If Djokovic shows so little respect for an audience he will get a bad reputation and make life exteemly difficult for himself. As it is lasts nights match will have turned many against him. He will get booed if he behaves like that.

HE, I'm sure Socal would agree that it's a heinous, unforgivable crime. After all, he wrote pages and pages about Federer's supposed outburst at the crowd. Infact I'm sure Socal will now agree that Djokovic is now not deserving of, and should never be nominated for, a Steffan Edberg award.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Djoko himself said it was lucky didn't he? I think he meant that he had already decided to just go for it on the return and hope for the best. So skill and luck, maybe?

As I recall, he described it as lucky but then backed off from it a bit, speaking about reading the serve etc.

I wouldn't claim it's a shot he could pull off every time... But that, at least to my mind, does not make it luck.

It just irks me that generally when a great sportsperson produces something difficult under great pressure, it's taken to be a mark of their skill but Novak's shot is taken to be luck.

I think this is a direct result of Federer getting that story rolling. If he hadn't made those comments in his post- match interview, I think Novak would have got more respect for that shot.

I like Federer and I consider his behaviour to usually be exemplary, but he let himself down on that occasion.

Good on Djokovic, Davis Cup- style tennis crowds makes for the best atmosphere. Must say I was shocked by the passion with which Madridista got at Djokovic, they dont even show that effort in Real Madrid games.

That shot Djokovic hit is like a fielder hitting the cricket stumps from 80 yards away. The guy cant do it ten times out of ten, probably not even twice in his career, but it isnt luck.

hawkeye wrote:socal1976.

What do you think of Djokovic shouting at the crowd? I presume you know what he shouted and that he's done it before? If Djokovic shows so little respect for an audience he will get a bad reputation and make life exteemly difficult for himself. As it is lasts nights match will have turned many against him. He will get booed if he behaves like that.

Federer has also shouted at the crowd telling them to shut up when he has been annoyed, so? As for my comments on fed's pseudo sportsmanship they stand. Like demanding to be the first man ever to get shot spot for two shots ago. Non of the conduct of either man is beyond a misdemeanor, although I do wonder about those Nike Edberg Awards and their validity.

But it was a wild swing he took that he wouldn't take at any other point in a match so you can't even say he's made that shot before. Perhaps that makes it even more amazing that he performed it at the most important time. He's also missed similar shots like in the final against Murray on match point.

For the record, tennis aside, all things considered on and off court, Djokovic has way more to be liked about him than Nadal and a fair bit more than Fed.

Bo5, thanks for that last post and I agree, I find his interviews and appearances much more interesting as rule than the other two. HE, has this desire to make Nadal and Federer into Olympian deities and then to tear down others as lacking in comparison. I don't take this thread very seriously because Federer has had his runs in with the crowd and disputes with line calls as well but she will fawn all over the man.

hawkeye wrote:

Jahu wrote:Djoke swearing yesterday at the public https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=y9YbwM57scA

Over 18's only!!

New link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSa-lVFl_g

I can't blame Djokovic for getting angry but what he said to the crowd was really vulgar.

Think Janowicz would disagree with that assertion Break-in-the-fifth.

HM Murdoch wrote:

break_in_the_fifth wrote:It was a lucky shot and it's awesome to hear a pro player especially one as accomplished as Fed speculating over what could be going on in a fellow pros head.

When a player goes for a difficult shot and pulls off that shot, it's not luck, it's a great shot.

Novak has hit similar returns loads of times down the years. If he'd hit the same shot at, say, 3-3, 15-0, nobody would be saying it was lucky. It would just be a great returner hitting a great return.

I don't get why that return is so commonly considered as lucky when, for example, Fed's backhand pass on Rafa's Championship point in the W08 set 4 tie break is presumed to be skill.

Surely Novak deserves the same assumption?

Someone else has said it but I think Novak kind of admitted he was just going for it at that stage. I remember his actions inbetween points and he was smiling and getting the crowd involved. He did seem very happy go lucky. That being said, I believe it was either Gary Player or Jack Nicholas who said 'the more I practice...the luckier I seem to get!'. Perhaps he was lucky. Maybe not. He had the balls to go for it. And made it.


On a seperate note HM, that shot you refer to from Federer. I thought it at the time and I still think it now..that because of the match situation, the court position, how the rally had been constructed and the pass itself (on Federer's backhand)..best single tennis shot I have ever seen. Just incredible. The camera angle view from behind Nadal shows just how perfect it needed to be.

Johnyjeep wrote:On a seperate note HM, that shot you refer to from Federer. I thought it at the time and I still think it now..that because of the match situation, the court position, how the rally had been constructed and the pass itself (on Federer's backhand)..best single tennis shot I have ever seen. Just incredible. The camera angle view from behind Nadal shows just how perfect it needed to be.

Yeah, it was amazing. A remarkable shot.

Nadal writes about it in his autobiography. He realised he had other shots on but the plan was 'go for the backhand'... and then the backhand produced that!

That's kind of the reason I picked it as an example. We know that Fed's backhand can't always produce such shots against Rafa, but it produced it at the vital moment. That to me is more skill than luck and I see Novak's shot in the same way.

Look the "shot" is now the most famous single shot in modern tennis history. He had to have a lot of skill to go for it but it wasn't the greatest shot selection that is what made it fortunate or a little stupid that he did the low percentage thing and pulled it off. Nothing lucky about anticipating correctly and blasting a first serve for a winner like that.

socal1976 wrote:Look the "shot" is now the most famous single shot in modern tennis history. He had to have a lot of skill to go for it but it wasn't the greatest shot selection that is what made it fortunate or a little stupid that he did the low percentage thing and pulled it off. Nothing lucky about anticipating correctly and blasting a first serve for a winner like that.

Especially when said player is a great returner who pretty frequently hits clean winners from service returns!

HM Murdoch wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Look the "shot" is now the most famous single shot in modern tennis history. He had to have a lot of skill to go for it but it wasn't the greatest shot selection that is what made it fortunate or a little stupid that he did the low percentage thing and pulled it off. Nothing lucky about anticipating correctly and blasting a first serve for a winner like that.

Especially when said player is a great returner who pretty frequently hits clean winners from service returns!

Exactly, Murdoch, it would be like Sampras going for a second serve ace on match point of a slam and getting it. Now the correct shot selection would be to kick the ball in but maybe a great player decides through frustration or whatever I am going to win it with one swing of the racket and by trusting his strength as player hits the shot. Now if Novak does it against fed it is luck, if it was the other way around it would be seen as Fed's daring shotmaking and skill. The man is the best returner of the last few years and he got a read on Fed's serve he knew exactly where that ball was going before Federer did and that is what allowed him to get around on it.

I've never understood the 'lucky' claim about that Novak shot. He has said himself that he thought it was game over so he just went for it. But he executed it perfectly.

We criticise so many players for not risking it all or going for broke, and when someone does and pulls it off its called lucky? Doesn't make sense to me. Pulling off a low percentage shot is skill, not fortune.

Danny - exactly!

And for you, as a Murray fan, look at 2:07 of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frV3XViWS3g

Same shot! Just didn't get the same attention because it wasn't such a pressured situation.

Danny_1982 wrote:I've never understood the 'lucky' claim about that Novak shot. He has said himself that he thought it was game over so he just went for it. But he executed it perfectly.

We criticise so many players for not risking it all or going for broke, and when someone does and pulls it off its called lucky? Doesn't make sense to me. Pulling off a low percentage shot is skill, not fortune.

Well when the player concerned himself states that luck was involved and that he closed his eyes and swung at the ball, it's quite easy to understand where the lucky claim came from.

We know that it is hard for some to understand humor and self depracting one at that, Djokovic talking about his eyes closed is obviously in jest and meant to be a djoko. Do you really think he closed his eyes before hitting a 110 plus an hour serve or do you think he was just trying to sum up how nervous and desperate the situation was, I think you take him to literally. But well we know about your lack of sense of humor and short bus rider level of deductive skills already. If he really did hit Federer's first serve for a winner with his eyes closed than I tell you what he isn't just the best tennis player he may be Luke Skywalker and a jedi or something.

Of course it's not to be taken literally but the statement indicates that there wasn't a great deal of skill involved. He basically took a swng and the ball landed in. Or are you suggesting that he aimed for that line and directed it there? I don't think so. He took a swing at the ball and was fortunate enough for it to land where it did. The only thing he was probably thinking about was getting his racquet on the ball and making a play. Hence there was most definitely an element of luck involved. 9 times out of 10 the ball would land out - on this occasion it landed in.

It does not compare in any way to the Federer shot against Nadal. Fed was backed into a corner, he could have just hit the ball back over the net but he knew that Rafa would be there waiting, so he had to go for the line, he did and he made it. He aimed for that small piece of turf and found it. Besides he played the exact same shot against Rafa a month earlier at the FO.

I'd advise you to refrain from hurling abuse at me. The joke I made about your appearance was just that - something firmly tongue in cheek. In response you've called me retarded, abused my mother and sister and now this comment above. If you want it to descend into such diatribe be prepared to be scorned and ridiculed. I may play the fool at times but I am far more accomplished and intelligent than you'll ever be.

murrayfan wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

Jahu wrote:Djoke swearing yesterday at the public https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=y9YbwM57scA

Over 18's only!!

New link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSa-lVFl_g

I can't blame Djokovic for getting angry but what he said to the crowd was really vulgar.

Thx for the link, thats utter disgrace act from Nole, really such a shameful behavior

No wonder inspite of his success he has very few fan following. I second you HE he have to learn.

HM Murdoch wrote:

Johnyjeep wrote:On a seperate note HM, that shot you refer to from Federer. I thought it at the time and I still think it now..that because of the match situation, the court position, how the rally had been constructed and the pass itself (on Federer's backhand)..best single tennis shot I have ever seen. Just incredible. The camera angle view from behind Nadal shows just how perfect it needed to be.

Yeah, it was amazing. A remarkable shot.

Nadal writes about it in his autobiography. He realised he had other shots on but the plan was 'go for the backhand'... and then the backhand produced that!

That's kind of the reason I picked it as an example. We know that Fed's backhand can't always produce such shots against Rafa, but it produced it at the vital moment. That to me is more skill than luck and I see Novak's shot in the same way.

I agree with you here HMM , both the shots were skillfull but did have some luck involved in it, there is a famous quote saying "Fortune favors the brave".

emancipator wrote:It does not compare in any way to the Federer shot against Nadal. Fed was backed into a corner, he could have just hit the ball back over the net but he knew that Rafa would be there waiting, so he had to go for the line, he did and he made it. He aimed for that small piece of turf and found it. Besides he played the exact same shot against Rafa a month earlier at the FO.

I don't think you're being consistent there, emancipator.

Everything you say about the Fed shot is correct but the same applies to Novak.

Backed into a corner? Double match point down on Fed's serve!

Novak could also have just 'hit the ball back over the net' but that would put the rally, and match on Fed's racquet. He took a shot that put the outcome on his racquet.

And as for hitting the shot before, I've seen Novak hit loads of service return winners. It's not an unusual shot for him.

Novak's comment on it was:

"I mean, match points down and I read his serve. I read his serve. I anticipated well, and I hit it, so I don’t know if it was lucky or not. It was just maybe it was lucky because it was in the right moment, but I took my chances. I took my chances, and I hit it very clean."

That's about right. There's an element of luck as there is with any difficult shot that a player can't execute every time. But it's way more than the "slap" Fed called it and more than the hit and hope that many present it as.

As Gary Player said, the harder I try the luckier I get. I tend to believe we make our own luck in sports.

Surely Djokovic didn't shout out what some have translated he said in that Dimi match? The ATP would have fined him for that foul language surely?

HM Murdoch wrote:

emancipator wrote:It does not compare in any way to the Federer shot against Nadal. Fed was backed into a corner, he could have just hit the ball back over the net but he knew that Rafa would be there waiting, so he had to go for the line, he did and he made it. He aimed for that small piece of turf and found it. Besides he played the exact same shot against Rafa a month earlier at the FO.

I don't think you're being consistent there, emancipator.

Everything you say about the Fed shot is correct but the same applies to Novak.

Backed into a corner? Double match point down on Fed's serve!

Novak could also have just 'hit the ball back over the net' but that would put the rally, and match on Fed's racquet. He took a shot that put the outcome on his racquet.

And as for hitting the shot before, I've seen Novak hit loads of service return winners. It's not an unusual shot for him.

Novak's comment on it was:

"I mean, match points down and I read his serve. I read his serve. I anticipated well, and I hit it, so I don’t know if it was lucky or not. It was just maybe it was lucky because it was in the right moment, but I took my chances. I took my chances, and I hit it very clean."

That's about right. There's an element of luck as there is with any difficult shot that a player can't execute every time. But it's way more than the "slap" Fed called it and more than the hit and hope that many present it as.

Fair enough. Can't argue with that assessment. I suppose there's always an element of luck but coupled with great skill too. However I do still see a slight difference between the two shots. I don't believe Djokovic deliberately went for the line on the service return. He made a play, did very well to anticipate and get there in time, but for the shot to ultimately land on the line, required luck. In Federer's case, he played for that piece of turf, it was the only place on the court where the odds swung back in his favour. He played that specific shot and pulled it off. Both great shots but one with more of an element of luck to it than the other.

emancipator wrote:I don't believe Djokovic deliberately went for the line on the service return. He made a play, did very well to anticipate and get there in time, but for the shot to ultimately land on the line, required luck. In Federer's case, he played for that piece of turf, it was the only place on the court where the odds swung back in his favour. He played that specific shot and pulled it off. Both great shots but one with more of an element of luck to it than the other.

Yeah, I can sort of accept that.

Fed hit it exactly where he had to go.

Novak no way intended to plant it on the line. In some ways, I think it was a bit of a percentage play - it was cross court into a large open space. That's part of the reason I don't view it as that lucky. The tricky part was the clean contact. Once he achieved that, the shot itself had a decent chance of being a clean winner, given Fed's positioning. The fact it hit the line is, I think, incidental. It didn't need to hit the line to be successful, as Novak had a fair gap to aim at. It just happened to do so.

Man, I love tennis forums - twenty months after the event, and I still get to analyse that shot!

emancipator wrote:

I'd advise you to refrain from hurling abuse at me. The joke I made about your appearance was just that - something firmly tongue in cheek. In response you've called me retarded, abused my mother and sister and now this comment above. If you want it to descend into such diatribe be prepared to be scorned and ridiculed. I may play the fool at times but I am far more accomplished and intelligent than you'll ever be.

Oh I get it when you call someone a drunk, create a caricature of every ugly feature a person could have and direct it at them, or question their sexuality before I ever insult you that is tongue and cheek. When I do it is abuse. You opened the door to this personal insult game with me, I never said so much as BOO in your general direction and you became nasty and personal. Don't threaten me, the only thing less impressive to me than people who can dish it and can't take it are people who then do the tough guy routine online and tell everyone how accomplished and intelligent they are. In short you started it, and again today on the CVAC thread started in with your insults and caricatures before my last post. Maybe it is time you acknowledge that you are the one who started the insults both a couple of days ago and today, you are the one who made it personal, and to apologize for your conduct and never do it again. You wanted to get a rise out of me and you wanted to insult and mock me, now if you want to fight it is up to you. If you don't like to be insulted and abused don't start it. It is a common rule of the universe, he who starts it loses his right to whine about the logical outcome of his conduct.