How does your team rank as a pillager of foreign talent?

Here's a list of professional teams based on their ability to pillage foreign talent. Foreign talent being players who have grown up in another system. It's based on Wikipedia (with background checks) and looks at the current season (so it's probably not 100% kosher). Where does your team rank?

Legendary pillagers
Agen
Bordeaux
Saracens
Edinborough
Stade de France

Great pillagers
Glasgow
Toulon
Stade Montois
Monpellier
Clermont
Sale
London Welsh
Exeter
Grenoble
Racing Metro
London Irish
Castre
Connacht

Good Pillagers
Benetton
Bairitz
Bayonais
Leicester
Bath
Wasps
Worcester
Perpignon
Zebre
Ulster
Blues (Wales)

Competent Pillagers
Toulous
Brumbies
Gloucester
Northampton
Leinster
Newport
Ospreys

Need to improve pillagers
Force
Rebels
Munster
Scarlets
Harlequins
Southern Kings
Waratahs

Poor pillagers
Hurricanes
Chiefs
Reds
Sharks
Crusaders
Blues (NZ)
Stormers
Cheetahs
Bulls

It's obviously not like with like (NZ, South African and some Australian teams are essentially made of national qualified players). NZ bred players are the most exported (albeit under other nationalities), marginally ahead of South Africa. Both Countries could probably support another 4 super rugby squads based on the number of players living overseas.

England has the most local bred players playing in the four leagues (Celtic, super rugby, top 14 and Premiership). New Zealand and South Africa both have more than France (is this inhibiting French rugby).

It also confirms the theory that no one takes on South Africans like SAracens. In fact it looks like the biggest single foreign nationality tied to any club/region.

An interesting aside are the number of Fijian players in France and how few get released to play for their national side.

Surprised to see Edinburgh at the top.

TJ wrote:Surprised to see Edinburgh at the top.

It might just be the system I used. Instead of looking at where players were born, or who they play for internationally, I looked at where they grew up. Both Scottish sides have a number players who have gone to school in England (many of them have been born there as well). None of the other teams outside the premiership are impacted to the same extent by players who have grown up in England. They may well qualify for Scotland on other grounds. When you add these to the more obvious candidates it adds up.

Blackcanelion, interesting piece of research, my friend - is your categorisation just based on quantity rather than quality? Edinburgh may be "legendary pillagers" in terms of the number of non-Scotland-born players in the side at the moment, but by and large they are all crap (Dozer Denton aside). Contrast that with Glasgow, who you have categorised only as "great" and you only have to look at the impact made by the likes of Maitland, Strauss, Matawalu, etc, and theyre just the headline players - add in DTHvdM, Cusack, and they've got some real foreign talent there.

I like the non-English-born players that we have at Exe - some of them would not have been household names overseas (Tui, Shoemark) but are essential cogs to what the Chiefs are about, some have received international recognition but drifted away from it (Mumm, Naqelevuki), some are still there at country level (Mitchell), and some wil never make it but are cor to our team and it's ethos (Hayes, Steenson).

Tigers should surely be top pillagers. We have a knack at picking young foreign players nobody has heard of and making them stars. Who had heard of Treviso's tighthead Castrogiovanni or the semi pro Marcos Ayerza before they rocked up at Tigers? Ditto Mafi, Goneva and Murphy.

We pillage the talent before the country know they have it.

Leinster plucked an unknown vagabond from the Japanese league, dropped him into their system and squeezed a HC medal out of him... I mean c'mon who the fock had even heard of Brad Thorn?

I hate to sound like my old GCSE Physics teacher, but could you show your working? Be interested to see the numbers

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tigers should surely be top pillagers. We have a knack at picking young foreign players nobody has heard of and making them stars. Who had heard of Treviso's tighthead Castrogiovanni or the semi pro Marcos Ayerza before they rocked up at Tigers? Ditto Mafi, Goneva and Murphy.

We pillage the talent before the country know they have it.

And when that fails, just pillage Newcastle! :laughing:

We are going to have to lock the gates at our Craven week it seems, it is bad enough how the South African franchises fall over each others feet trying to sign schoolboys there.

We should lock our borders a week before the Craven week starts.

I definately put the Dragons in the poor league because some of the overseas players we have signed have been down right shocking

Surely Toulon are 'legendary pillagers'?

Botha, Botha, Sheridan, Jenkins, Kubriashvili, (Castro?), Shaw, Kennedy, Masoe, JVN, JMFL, Elsom, Armitage, Armitage, Burgess, Wilko, Giteau, Wulf, Habana

Just off the top of my head!

This also doesn't take in to consideration the quality of the players...

In general the Welsh teams sign the cheapest mercenaries on the market, players who are unable to acheive any success down south and come north with pretty low wage expectations.

Players such as Tito, Patterson, Mafu and Laulala were all signed with wage demands similar to young Welsh players at the Blues.

So in part I would suggest that pilfering is the wrong word entirely, the main 'pilferers' are French clubs who can force quality players away from their clubs with huge wage offers, whereas the market is flooded with cheap kiwi players, who are offered contracts by minor clubs. If they manage to perform then the big clubs come in and pilfer them away...

So instead of judging foreing signings I would recomend going back and finding which of these players rejected home contracts in favour of NH contracts, and those who chose to move north before hand.

Off the top of my head the only 'pilfers' from the Super teams of late have been big money moves to France or Japan, with the odd SA to Sarries and Munster

Also it isn't one way, players like Cipriani, Delve etc moved south for contracts, and rejected contracts north to do so, Scarlets have lost a lot of players this season they didn't want to, thats pilfering, not signing players who have purposely listed themselves as wanting a contract from someone.

BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Biltong wrote:BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Oh no, for the love of god, please don't start this.

blackcanelion I don't think you quite understand the words pillage or talent.



I will answer your accusation about Saracens.

None of these South Africans were particularly high profile. I suppose Smit is but he's retired now to become Sharks CEO. Plus he came after his Springbok career was over.

Mouritz Botha - his story is known. He basically started his rugby career at Bedford Athletic.

Schalk Brits - kept out of the SA side because he was seen as not fitting the SA forward mold. He was basically spurned.

Ernst Joubert - basically an unknown in South Africa, has turned into a decent player in the UK. He was a late bloomer.

Owen Hargreaves - injury ravaged. Has come to the UK to get his career back on track.

Jacques Burger - a Namibian who has been given an opportunity to boost Namibian rugby.

Nick Fenton Wells, Justin Melck and Petrus Du Plessis are not well known in South Africa.

Perhaps you could argue that Barritt was lured over as young talent but he's the only one from SA. No guarantee he would have got in the SA anyway.




It's really unfair to say Saracens are worse than Toulon or for example Racing Metro.

Plus it doesn't take into account the development of the players at the club.


Saracens has actually helped SA in my opinion.

Biltong wrote:BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Arguable there is, but the market isn't tilted toward Wq players, they cost far more than nomark kiwimen. Look at Gareth Delve, on the cusp of the Wales squad, looking for a move to the Blues, they make an offer that is crazy low, he wants a middle of the road wage and they turn down a guy they desperately needed and sign Patterson for 30k less than they offered Delve (reportedly)

Welsh players playing outside Wales command bigger salaries than SH journeymen, and as we all know the Welsh regions are privately owned and money making ventures (or at least trying to be) why would Thomas (Blues owner) sign a top Welsh 8, when for half the price he can sign a guy who is similar age, similar ability but commands far less wages because he has huge competition from foreign players of a similar mould looking for the same contract.

Look at the Dragons signings, Chavanga, Tuilagi and Nimmo were all signed because they were in a wage bracket that was affordable, and were all looking for contracts.

So Welsh clubs aren't scouring world rugby for who would do the best job for them, they are presented with a list of players looking for contracts, and who are within their wage bracket, that IMHO isn't pilfering, it's selecting from an influx of NWQ players who want contracts.

Nobody would say that Ireland over the last few years were 'pilfering' the polish workforce would they? Economies of different rugby clubs are different, the likes of Toulon, Racing and the Japanese league are scouring the best leagues in the world and trying to 'pilfer' the best players, but the much lower funded teams such as Scottish or Welsh have to fight over the scraps and leftovers, and if they do find a gem soon lose them to better funded clubs ie. Kahn, Laulala, Patterson, Lyons, Morgan, Brew etc...

Edinburgh are pretty average at pillaging foreign talent. For every Tonks, Visser and Talei, there's an Atiga, Penn and Francis, and a whole lot more who have been nothing more than average (or under used) so far (Titterall, Yapp, Rees, Parker, VDW and Basilia).

Our latest signing is Lutui from Worcester. 35 years old.

We aren't in Glasgow's league when it comes to foreign signings. They deserve to be in the top division in that regard. Matawalu, DTH, Strauss and Cusack. Awesome signings.

Also let's be honest I think Scottish fans prefer the way Kelly Brown is being treated by Saracens than the fiasco at Sale with Richie Gray.

Sam yes you could argue Tigers would be top pillagers based on what blackcanelion says. On the other hand what I think Tigers do is great for rugby. They develop relatively unknown or less profile players into very talented individuals.

Look at Mulipola for example. Tigers seem to have successively re ignited Tait's career too (I know he's not foreign but an example of a change in fortunes).

Saracens has actually helped SA in my opinion.

How?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Arguable there is, but the market isn't tilted toward Wq players, they cost far more than nomark kiwimen. Look at Gareth Delve, on the cusp of the Wales squad, looking for a move to the Blues, they make an offer that is crazy low, he wants a middle of the road wage and they turn down a guy they desperately needed and sign Patterson for 30k less than they offered Delve (reportedly)

Welsh players playing outside Wales command bigger salaries than SH journeymen, and as we all know the Welsh regions are privately owned and money making ventures (or at least trying to be) why would Thomas (Blues owner) sign a top Welsh 8, when for half the price he can sign a guy who is similar age, similar ability but commands far less wages because he has huge competition from foreign players of a similar mould looking for the same contract.

Look at the Dragons signings, Chavanga, Tuilagi and Nimmo were all signed because they were in a wage bracket that was affordable, and were all looking for contracts.

So Welsh clubs aren't scouring world rugby for who would do the best job for them, they are presented with a list of players looking for contracts, and who are within their wage bracket, that IMHO isn't pilfering, it's selecting from an influx of NWQ players who want contracts.

Nobody would say that Ireland over the last few years were 'pilfering' the polish workforce would they? Economies of different rugby clubs are different, the likes of Toulon, Racing and the Japanese league are scouring the best leagues in the world and trying to 'pilfer' the best players, but the much lower funded teams such as Scottish or Welsh have to fight over the scraps and leftovers, and if they do find a gem soon lose them to better funded clubs ie. Kahn, Laulala, Patterson, Lyons, Morgan, Brew etc...

But now you are saying why would they pay for a TOP 8 as a Welshman, but rather pay for a Journeyman.

How does that work?

What it sounds like you are saying is they aren't prepared to pay for quality. Or is it that the journeyman is cheaper than the Welsh journeyman?

Again if that is the case then Wales won't develop players if they go for cheap options outside Wales.

Sorry but this is not making a lot of sense to me.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Oh no, for the love of god, please don't start this.

Not starting anything mate, I am trying to understand if clubs are contracting average players, then surely Wales must have some average players too?

At the end of the day these clubs are trying to win, so understandably there is an affordability issue, but why go outside unless there aren't enough quality players.

Biltong wrote:

Saracens has actually helped SA in my opinion.

How?

By turning South Africans who were either unappreciated, unknown into decent players. Giving them an opportunity.

It helps the profile of South African rugby when you have these guys performing well in Europe. It gives the impression - look how strong South African rugby is. Mouritz Botha for example might have been born in South Africa but his rugby career basically started in Bedford.

Ernst Joubert was completely unknown when he came to Saracens.

Giving Schalk Brits the opportunities. In South Africa he was seen as too small. His move to England has made South Africans notice him.


Compare this to Toulon who signed Bakkies Botha,Joe Van Niekerk,Danie Rossouw and are signing Habana etc.

beshocked wrote:
Owen Hargreaves - injury ravaged. Has come to the UK to get his career back on track.

Well I didn't know that? I thought he retired after his spell with Man City?

Biltong wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Oh no, for the love of god, please don't start this.

Not starting anything mate, I am trying to understand if clubs are contracting average players, then surely Wales must have some average players too?At the end of the day these clubs are trying to win, so understandably there is an affordability issue, but why go outside unless there aren't enough quality players.

This is my point exactly, but then you must have seen the shafting I got off some of my fellow Welsh brethren on here for saying it, I am not against NWQ players, I just want good ones, not players of the either the same standard or worst than we have got already.

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Saracens has actually helped SA in my opinion.

How?

By turning South Africans who were either unappreciated, unknown into decent players. Giving them an opportunity.

It helps the profile of South African rugby when you have these guys performing well in Europe. It gives the impression - look how strong South African rugby is. Mouritz Botha for example might have been born in South Africa but his rugby career basically started in Bedford.

Ernst Joubert was completely unknown when he came to Saracens.

Giving Schalk Brits the opportunities. In South Africa he was seen as too small. His move to England has made South Africans notice him.

Mate the only guy you can claim Kudo's on is Mouritz botha, and him you can have with pleasure.

Every other South African was a good player here already, Ernst Joubert was captain of the Lions, Schalk Brits was already a capped Bok, Justin Melck was playing for Western Province and by memory he also played some Super Rugby.

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Owen Hargreaves - injury ravaged. Has come to the UK to get his career back on track.

Well I didn't know that? I thought he retired after his spell with Man City?

Slip of the tongue. I meant Alastair Hargreaves.

Quite Biltong, quite.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:BLuesman, if Wales is merely looking at cheap labour, in other words average journeymen, the question begs why do they need to do that?

Surely there should be more than enough talent to fill four regional teams?

Oh no, for the love of god, please don't start this.

Not starting anything mate, I am trying to understand if clubs are contracting average players, then surely Wales must have some average players too?At the end of the day these clubs are trying to win, so understandably there is an affordability issue, but why go outside unless there aren't enough quality players.

This is my point exactly, but then you must have seen the shafting I got off some of my fellow Welsh brethren on here for saying it, I am not against NWQ players, I just want good ones, not players of the either the same standard or worst than we have got already.

Well, your opinion is your opinion, and if someone doesn't agree with it, then it is why they give their opinion.

The reality is every country has players of different ability, amateur, journeymen, good quality, star quality and international quality, if you have your own, why import?

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Owen Hargreaves - injury ravaged. Has come to the UK to get his career back on track.

Well I didn't know that? I thought he retired after his spell with Man City?

Slip of the tongue. I meant Alastair Hargreaves.

Ah, yes and he was touted to become a Bok, he played Super rugby and was very young when he got Poached. In fact he has 4 Bok caps.

Or playing devil's advocate here and I don't neccessarily true.

But could playing in SA and Super Rugby be a higher standard and therefore, 'relatively unknown' players coming over here, just appear to be better than their new team mates?

Certainly the case with Louw, Kruger etc.

Can't think of many Boks who have improved their international options since a move to the UK? (You could argue Louw though)

Yes, Louw has done well last year, he was in tremendous form, but I don't see how you can make a general statement that a player improves when he goes to Europe.

any rugby player improves with age, that is simply natural, if he doesn't then there should be questions asked about his commitment to the sport.

Experience gained makes (should make) a player smarter, better and ultimately more effective, unless of course he goes and plays club rugby for the village behind the mountain with a population of 25 people.

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Saracens has actually helped SA in my opinion.

How?

By turning South Africans who were either unappreciated, unknown into decent players. Giving them an opportunity.

It helps the profile of South African rugby when you have these guys performing well in Europe. It gives the impression - look how strong South African rugby is. Mouritz Botha for example might have been born in South Africa but his rugby career basically started in Bedford.

Ernst Joubert was completely unknown when he came to Saracens.

Giving Schalk Brits the opportunities. In South Africa he was seen as too small. His move to England has made South Africans notice him.

Mate the only guy you can claim Kudo's on is Mouritz botha, and him you can have with pleasure.

Every other South African was a good player here already, Ernst Joubert was captain of the Lions, Schalk Brits was already a capped Bok, Justin Melck was playing for Western Province and by memory he also played some Super Rugby.

Their stock has risen since being at Saracens with perhaps the exception of Melck. Good players but not particularly well known.

Brits was a capped Bok but he was being kept out of the springbok side. He was not getting his opportunities in SA because he was deemed too small.

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Saracens has actually helped SA in my opinion.

How?

By turning South Africans who were either unappreciated, unknown into decent players. Giving them an opportunity.

It helps the profile of South African rugby when you have these guys performing well in Europe. It gives the impression - look how strong South African rugby is. Mouritz Botha for example might have been born in South Africa but his rugby career basically started in Bedford.

Ernst Joubert was completely unknown when he came to Saracens.

Giving Schalk Brits the opportunities. In South Africa he was seen as too small. His move to England has made South Africans notice him.

Mate the only guy you can claim Kudo's on is Mouritz botha, and him you can have with pleasure.

Every other South African was a good player here already, Ernst Joubert was captain of the Lions, Schalk Brits was already a capped Bok, Justin Melck was playing for Western Province and by memory he also played some Super Rugby.

Their stock has risen since being at Saracens with perhaps the exception of Melck. Good players but not particularly well known.

Brits was a capped Bok but he was being kept out of the springbok side. He was not getting his opportunities in SA because he was deemed too small.

And he is still to small, you need to realise the depth in Sa on the hooker front is huge, then we also have politics which comes into play.

During the time Brits was here consider all things, he was probably 5th best hooker in the country.

If you have Bismarck du Plessis, John Smit, Chiliboy Ralapele, etc etc. why would you pick the small guy?

Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Raised the profile?

Only in England, they all had high profiles in SA, i'm not sure what your point is?

Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

beshocked wrote:Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Beshocked, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that senior players leave for Europe or Japan to make money.

What I have a problem with is when youngsters who are barely starting their careers are being lured, stolen, poached, pickled, name it what you want to go overseas and become projects.

If they want players, come get those that have been paying long enough and have given South African rugby their service, after all they learn the game here, come through our academies, our Craven weeks etc.

My message is simple, leave our F%%^^ youngsters alone.

beshocked wrote:Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

It isn't attitude mate, Hargreaves was what 23? when he left, he had a storming season for the Stormers and was selected for SA, next thing we hear he is gone, how is that not high profile, he is playing in the toughest competition in the Southern hemisphere, how is he not already showcasing his talent?

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Beshocked, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that senior players leave for Europe or Japan to make money.

What I have a problem with is when youngsters who are barely starting their careers are being lured, stolen, poached, pickled, name it what you want to go overseas and become projects.

If they want players, come get those that have been paying long enough and have given South African rugby their service, after all they learn the game here, come through our academies, our Craven weeks etc.

My message is simple, leave our F%%^^ youngsters alone.

Who would you be referring to?

South African rugby is very competitive. Some players are bound to move abroad to look for opportunities there.

beshocked wrote:Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

Bit of a shame. I agree that Sarries have done a great job recruiting good SA players into their team. What they haven't done is made unknowns known or transformed their careers. As Biltong has said, all the players had solid Super Rugby or even international caps before they came over.

Great recruitment yes. Developed 'unknown players' into world famous players no.

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Beshocked, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that senior players leave for Europe or Japan to make money.

What I have a problem with is when youngsters who are barely starting their careers are being lured, stolen, poached, pickled, name it what you want to go overseas and become projects.

If they want players, come get those that have been paying long enough and have given South African rugby their service, after all they learn the game here, come through our academies, our Craven weeks etc.

My message is simple, leave our F%%^^ youngsters alone.

When you say 'Projects' what do you mean?

What you need to do is protest for South Africa to stop trade agreements between SA and the UK/EU. That way South Africans won't be able to come here to work. Sorted.

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Beshocked, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that senior players leave for Europe or Japan to make money.

What I have a problem with is when youngsters who are barely starting their careers are being lured, stolen, poached, pickled, name it what you want to go overseas and become projects.

If they want players, come get those that have been paying long enough and have given South African rugby their service, after all they learn the game here, come through our academies, our Craven weeks etc.

My message is simple, leave our F%%^^ youngsters alone.

Who would you be referring to?

South African rugby is very competitive. Some players are bound to move abroad to look for opportunities there.

Let me put it this way, at every Craven week the scouts from the Bulls, Sharks, and Stormers stand there with their thick chequebooks ready to sign whomever they deem good enough to be a future star (and believe me there are plenty), but the time these boys play for the U20 World Cup tournament they have all been contracted, to either immediately play in the U19 Currie Cup or Varsity Cup.

So their careers are already laid out for them, I look at youngsters such as CJ Stander, still wet behind the ears and he is gone, because someone has plans for him in the north.

Competitive? Oh yes, but why take our best youngsters? The problem is money is a big lure, is it right, well at the end of the day you can't stop it, is it moral to come steal our future Boks? Definitely not.

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

It isn't attitude mate, Hargreaves was what 23? when he left, he had a storming season for the Stormers and was selected for SA, next thing we hear he is gone, how is that not high profile, he is playing in the toughest competition in the Southern hemisphere, how is he not already showcasing his talent?

Actually Hargreaves is 27 now. Signed for Saracens only in the 2012/13 season.


"The 26-year-old Hargreaves arrives at Sarries from the Durban-based Sharks where his performances earned him four Springboks caps. A lengthy injury lay-off last term saw him exiled from the international side and he is hoping to re-ignite his career in the Aviva Premiership."

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/166630.html

HammerofThunor wrote:

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Beshocked, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that senior players leave for Europe or Japan to make money.

What I have a problem with is when youngsters who are barely starting their careers are being lured, stolen, poached, pickled, name it what you want to go overseas and become projects.

If they want players, come get those that have been paying long enough and have given South African rugby their service, after all they learn the game here, come through our academies, our Craven weeks etc.

My message is simple, leave our F%%^^ youngsters alone.

When you say 'Projects' what do you mean?

What you need to do is protest for South Africa to stop trade agreements between SA and the UK/EU. That way South Africans won't be able to come here to work. Sorted.

Mate there is only one reason you recruit youngsters, it is to bolster your club and ultimately your national team. No we can't stop it. But let's all just put our cards openly on the table.

There is contracting a player because he has experience, served his country and is out to make a buck, the club gains experience to teach their youngsters and gain a quality player to boot, case in point, Ruan Pienaar. Stefan Terblanche etc.

Then there is contracting youngsters for a totally different reason, I think we all know that reason.

beshocked wrote:

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

It isn't attitude mate, Hargreaves was what 23? when he left, he had a storming season for the Stormers and was selected for SA, next thing we hear he is gone, how is that not high profile, he is playing in the toughest competition in the Southern hemisphere, how is he not already showcasing his talent?

Actually Hargreaves is 27 now. Signed for Saracens only in the 2012/13 season.


"The 26-year-old Hargreaves arrives at Sarries from the Durban-based Sharks where his performances earned him four Springboks caps. A lengthy injury lay-off last term saw him exiled from the international side and he is hoping to re-ignite his career in the Aviva Premiership."

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/166630.html

Ok, so he is a bit older, he wasn't going to get into the BOk squad with Bakkies, Victor and Danie Rossouw around, so he got capped at the end of their careers, the point remains the same though.

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

Bit of a shame. I agree that Sarries have done a great job recruiting good SA players into their team. What they haven't done is made unknowns known or transformed their careers. As Biltong has said, all the players had solid Super Rugby or even international caps before they came over.

Great recruitment yes. Developed 'unknown players' into world famous players no.

They were unknown in Europe. They weren't known on the international stage.

It's not quite the same as signing an SA international with more than a handful of caps. Not like Bath have done with Louw and Butch James for example.

Surprised Biltong hasn't locked his sights onto Bath - just looking at their squad. They have signed a young South African Nick Koster.

Biltong I presume you prefer Toulon to Saracens then? Toulon of course have Niekerk,Botha,Rossouw and are signing Habana.

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:Never mind Bathite. I can't be bothered explaining to you. You'll just disagree and we'll carry on arguing in circles.

Sick of the attitude of a lot of the posters on here currently.

Bit of a shame. I agree that Sarries have done a great job recruiting good SA players into their team. What they haven't done is made unknowns known or transformed their careers. As Biltong has said, all the players had solid Super Rugby or even international caps before they came over.

Great recruitment yes. Developed 'unknown players' into world famous players no.

They were unknown in Europe. They weren't known on the international stage.

It's not quite the same as signing an SA international with more than a handful of caps. Not like Bath have done with Louw and Butch James for example.

Surprised Biltong hasn't locked his sights onto Bath - just looking at their squad. They have signed a young South African Nick Koster.

Biltong I presume you prefer Toulon to Saracens then? Toulon of course have Niekerk,Botha,Rossouw and are signing Habana.

Beshocked, my rant is not aimed at Saracens, in fact whenever their games are shown here I watch them to see how the Saffers play.

This isn't about one club doing this, it is about the number of players we are losing, specifically the youngsters.

To tell the truth, France is worrying me the most, I see they will have three residence qualified South Africans on their tour to NZ. I go through the lists every now and then to see where our players go, and from what I have seen France picks them up very, very early, some of those names I have never heard about, so they must have been poached at Craven week.

Biltong wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Biltong wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biltong surely you can understand Brits wanting to move abroad then if he's deemed as 5th choice in your eyes?

Moving to England gives Hargreaves the opportunities to showcase his talents. He had a torrid season with his foot injury before moving to Saracens.

Beshocked, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that senior players leave for Europe or Japan to make money.

What I have a problem with is when youngsters who are barely starting their careers are being lured, stolen, poached, pickled, name it what you want to go overseas and become projects.

If they want players, come get those that have been paying long enough and have given South African rugby their service, after all they learn the game here, come through our academies, our Craven weeks etc.

My message is simple, leave our F%%^^ youngsters alone.

When you say 'Projects' what do you mean?

What you need to do is protest for South Africa to stop trade agreements between SA and the UK/EU. That way South Africans won't be able to come here to work. Sorted.

Mate there is only one reason you recruit youngsters, it is to bolster your club and ultimately your national team. No we can't stop it. But let's all just put our cards openly on the table.

There is contracting a player because he has experience, served his country and is out to make a buck, the club gains experience to teach their youngsters and gain a quality player to boot, case in point, Ruan Pienaar. Stefan Terblanche etc.

Then there is contracting youngsters for a totally different reason, I think we all know that reason.

I'll tell you now the ONLY reason French and English clubs hire young South African players is to bolster their club. They don't care about getting these players to be playing for England or France. If anything they'd be worse off if they do. Just because some DO go on the represent these countries doesn't mean that was the point. The reason they like to get them yougn is because 1) They're cheaper 2) They can be developed as the club wants. That's why Cockerill was so peed off when Waldrum 'found' his granny. He thought he had three years without international worries and then Waldrum could be ditched. Instead he could potentially play for England immediately.

And France may well be an issue for rugby in more ways than one. Possibly they'll implode. Or they may go from strength to strength. I can easily see them dropping out of European rugby to concentrate on T14/16/18.

blackcanelion wrote:
Legendary pillagers
Agen
Bordeaux
Saracens
Edinborough
Stade de France Français

not really challenging your ranking as my team, bordeaux-begles, is filled with cheap journeymen from australia and NZ looking for a quite nice way of life coupled with some decent surfing spots nearby. Cant blame them really
you got the likes of bruce reihana finishing his career there who is looking forward to play with his son soon (he's 18ish I think and playing for the juniors already). The only foreigners worth a mention are Avei the samoan hooker and Sanchez the Argentinian fly-half. Some of the others are quite decent but not super rugby level (maybe Adams the scrumhalf but I am not sure loads of people heard about him).

but in terms of numbers, I have counted 18 foreigners in 43-44 men squad where other french teams are probably at 50% (ie the max). Agen being definitely worst and Toulon probably close.

I'd argue that the sharks in SA are the biggets pillagers of all.

Ok its its all in SA but remember the size of the country first of all. Natal is not a big rugby region.. most of their players come from the Western Cape, the Free State or the Transvaal.... i.e. distance comparison London to Rome in some cases.
They have big money so they end up literally stealing kids from neighbouring provinces rugby pitches. Other teams tend to recruit from within.

Free State - Frans Steyn, Bismarck Du Plessis, Jannie Du Plessis, Ruan Pienaar, Juan Deysel, Meyer Bosman, AJ Venter, Andre Joubert.

Western & Eastern Cape - JP Pietersen, Adi Jacobs, Johan Muller, Stefan Terblanche, Pieter-Steph Du Toit, Ryan Kankowski, Steven Sykes, Luke Watson, Percy Montegomery, Odwa Ndungane

Transvaal - Willem Alberts, Marcel Coetzee, Riaan Viljoen, Charl McLoed, John Smit.

Abroad - Gregor Townsend, Andy Goode, Freddie Michelak, Beast Mtawarira, Adrian Garvey

Actually from Natal - Butch James, Pat Lambie, Joel Stransky, Gary Teichmann. Henry Honiball, Mark Andrews.