The Gloves Are Off The Super Middleweights

by BoxingFan88 Fri May 17, 2013 6:08 am

If you haven't seen this yet, then go and watch it because it is brilliant, the fighters involved hold nothing back at all.

Also gives you *some* understanding of why Roy Jones and Collins want to fight each other, but I still think its a ridiculous idea.

Loved every minute of the show, its a brilliant idea!

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 6:14 am

I wish they hadnt wasted as much time taking about Kessler/Froch II. Seemed like a bit of cheap advertising from Sky and wasnt all that relevant to the discussion.

Collins really hasnt that let that Jones fight ever go! Beating him now isnt going to do anything. Let it go!

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:15 am

Brilliant show. Collins came across as a prize clown. JC looked as he was on Colombia's finest (not Shakira). Eubank said it as it was. Collins ducked JC. Nelson seems a very good interviewer.

I could hardly understand RJJ.

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 6:20 am

I thought Collins reason for not fighting Calzaghe was fairly easy to understand. Eubank just seemed to want to needle him. It was basically the same situation as Calzaghe and Froch had. A fight with Calzaghe meant nothing to Collins at the time. Im not going to blame a guy whos trying to secure a fight with Jones for taking little interest in a then unknown Calzaghe.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:33 am

Calzaghe is very different. He went after the money and the bigger names. Collins still had fights ahead of him he could have gone for which made money. Not just JC. Moreover JC wasn't unknown. He had fought on TV a few times and everyone knew he was damn good.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Fri May 17, 2013 6:37 am

Calzaghe went after big names hahahahahaha.

by Rodney Fri May 17, 2013 6:38 am

manos de piedra wrote:I wish they hadnt wasted as much time taking about Kessler/Froch II. Seemed like a bit of cheap advertising from Sky and wasnt all that relevant to the discussion.

Collins really hasnt that let that Jones fight ever go! Beating him now isnt going to do anything. Let it go!

Spot on agree with all of that !

Must be worth a mention but Woodhall is a thoroughly decent chap, class act.

Cheers Rodders

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 6:41 am

Its not different in my opinion. Collins was nearing retirement and had been chasing the biggest possible fight available to him. If he was choosing to avoid Calzaghe in favour of fighting guys like Tocker Pudwill, then I might view it as ducking. But there was only one fight out there left for him to see who was the number 1 Super Middleweight. Calzaghe was just a talented kid coming through. He couldnt have known Calzaghe would go on to acheive what he did. He explained clearly that he had no interest in the fight and no motivation beyond testing himself against Jones. Fair enough I say. With hindsight its easy to look back and say he ducked him knowing what Calzaghe did. But back then nobody would have anticipated that. If he fought Calzaghe the people would have said he should have fought Jones (as they did for Calzaghe himself later). At least when Collins was around he was aiming for the big fights.

by Rodney Fri May 17, 2013 6:44 am

azania wrote:Calzaghe is very different. He went after the money and the bigger names. Collins still had fights ahead of him he could have gone for which made money. Not just JC. Moreover JC wasn't unknown. He had fought on TV a few times and everyone knew he was damn good.

I'm sure Collins attempted to get back in the mix after pulling out the initial Calzaghe showdown, however blacked out in sparring and that was that.

Cheers Rodders

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:45 am

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Calzaghe went after big names hahahahahaha.

I said big names, not better fights. I suppose Froch was a bigger name than RJJ and Hopkins.

Carry on picard

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 6:46 am

He went after the same Jones Collins was going over with the differance being it was 15 years later and Jones was as washed up as it gets.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:47 am

manos de piedra wrote:Its not different in my opinion. Collins was nearing retirement and had been chasing the biggest possible fight available to him. If he was choosing to avoid Calzaghe in favour of fighting guys like Tocker Pudwill, then I might view it as ducking. But there was only one fight out there left for him to see who was the number 1 Super Middleweight. Calzaghe was just a talented kid coming through. He couldnt have known Calzaghe would go on to acheive what he did. He explained clearly that he had no interest in the fight and no motivation beyond testing himself against Jones. Fair enough I say. With hindsight its easy to look back and say he ducked him knowing what Calzaghe did. But back then nobody would have anticipated that. If he fought Calzaghe the people would have said he should have fought Jones (as they did for Calzaghe himself later). At least when Collins was around he was aiming for the big fights.

He simply retired. For me that is running.

JC would have been a big domestic fight.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:48 am

manos de piedra wrote:He went after the same Jones Collins was going over with the differance being it was 15 years later and Jones was as washed up as it gets.

And he got him. Collins beat washed up Eubank and Benn. The first live opponent he could have fought he ran from.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:48 am

Rodney wrote:
azania wrote:Calzaghe is very different. He went after the money and the bigger names. Collins still had fights ahead of him he could have gone for which made money. Not just JC. Moreover JC wasn't unknown. He had fought on TV a few times and everyone knew he was damn good.

I'm sure Collins attempted to get back in the mix after pulling out the initial Calzaghe showdown, however blacked out in sparring and that was that.

Cheers Rodders

If he blacked out in sparring, then fair decision to retire. Health comes first.

by Rodney Fri May 17, 2013 6:49 am

azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:Its not different in my opinion. Collins was nearing retirement and had been chasing the biggest possible fight available to him. If he was choosing to avoid Calzaghe in favour of fighting guys like Tocker Pudwill, then I might view it as ducking. But there was only one fight out there left for him to see who was the number 1 Super Middleweight. Calzaghe was just a talented kid coming through. He couldnt have known Calzaghe would go on to acheive what he did. He explained clearly that he had no interest in the fight and no motivation beyond testing himself against Jones. Fair enough I say. With hindsight its easy to look back and say he ducked him knowing what Calzaghe did. But back then nobody would have anticipated that. If he fought Calzaghe the people would have said he should have fought Jones (as they did for Calzaghe himself later). At least when Collins was around he was aiming for the big fights.

He simply retired. For me that is running.

JC would have been a big domestic fight.

Do you consider Mayweather running from a De La Hoya rematch when he retired ?

Cheers Rodders

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 6:51 am

azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:Its not different in my opinion. Collins was nearing retirement and had been chasing the biggest possible fight available to him. If he was choosing to avoid Calzaghe in favour of fighting guys like Tocker Pudwill, then I might view it as ducking. But there was only one fight out there left for him to see who was the number 1 Super Middleweight. Calzaghe was just a talented kid coming through. He couldnt have known Calzaghe would go on to acheive what he did. He explained clearly that he had no interest in the fight and no motivation beyond testing himself against Jones. Fair enough I say. With hindsight its easy to look back and say he ducked him knowing what Calzaghe did. But back then nobody would have anticipated that. If he fought Calzaghe the people would have said he should have fought Jones (as they did for Calzaghe himself later). At least when Collins was around he was aiming for the big fights.

He simply retired. For me that is running.

JC would have been a big domestic fight.

Yeah sure. A guy who fought Eubank x 2, Benn x 2, McCallum, Johnson, Kalambay and chased (still is) Jones for years, then suffers health concerns before retiring after a tough career ducked a little known Calzaghe who would not have been remotely a big a fight as a Jones, Benn or Eubank. Sure.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:53 am

Rodney wrote:
azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:Its not different in my opinion. Collins was nearing retirement and had been chasing the biggest possible fight available to him. If he was choosing to avoid Calzaghe in favour of fighting guys like Tocker Pudwill, then I might view it as ducking. But there was only one fight out there left for him to see who was the number 1 Super Middleweight. Calzaghe was just a talented kid coming through. He couldnt have known Calzaghe would go on to acheive what he did. He explained clearly that he had no interest in the fight and no motivation beyond testing himself against Jones. Fair enough I say. With hindsight its easy to look back and say he ducked him knowing what Calzaghe did. But back then nobody would have anticipated that. If he fought Calzaghe the people would have said he should have fought Jones (as they did for Calzaghe himself later). At least when Collins was around he was aiming for the big fights.

He simply retired. For me that is running.

JC would have been a big domestic fight.

Do you consider Mayweather running from a De La Hoya rematch when he retired ?

Cheers Rodders

He already fought and beat him.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 6:54 am

manos de piedra wrote:
azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:Its not different in my opinion. Collins was nearing retirement and had been chasing the biggest possible fight available to him. If he was choosing to avoid Calzaghe in favour of fighting guys like Tocker Pudwill, then I might view it as ducking. But there was only one fight out there left for him to see who was the number 1 Super Middleweight. Calzaghe was just a talented kid coming through. He couldnt have known Calzaghe would go on to acheive what he did. He explained clearly that he had no interest in the fight and no motivation beyond testing himself against Jones. Fair enough I say. With hindsight its easy to look back and say he ducked him knowing what Calzaghe did. But back then nobody would have anticipated that. If he fought Calzaghe the people would have said he should have fought Jones (as they did for Calzaghe himself later). At least when Collins was around he was aiming for the big fights.

He simply retired. For me that is running.

JC would have been a big domestic fight.

Yeah sure. A guy who fought Eubank x 2, Benn x 2, McCallum, Johnson, Kalambay and chased (still is) Jones for years, then suffers health concerns before retiring after a tough career ducked a little known Calzaghe who would not have been remotely a big a fight as a Jones, Benn or Eubank. Sure.

JC wasn't little known. He had a glittering amateur career and was racing up the rankings. Everyone knew he was good. Eubank was washed up and so was Benn.

I reckon he knew JC was too dangerous.

But if he had health issues prior to the bout, fair play to him for calling it quits.

by BoxingFan88 Fri May 17, 2013 7:25 am

I have never seen Collins fight, but the way he was talking, I would pick Joe to beat him.

He said as long as he has a plan he can beat every fighter, pattern fighters maybe, but not ones that can adapt.

Joe adapted to any style he came up against in the ring and Collins plan might have worked for a few rounds but as soon as Joe adapted to it, the plan would be useless.

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 7:33 am

The irony was that Collins was no adaptive fighter himself. He could only box successfully one way.

Id give him a fair shot of beating Calzaghe around 1995/6 though. Calzaghe lacked experience then and wasnt the finished article.

by azania Fri May 17, 2013 7:55 am

JC would have beaten him and I reckon Collins felt the same way also.

The irony of him saying that he adapted his style is ridiculous. He was a pressure fighter and a damn strong and tough guy also. He outworked most people. His problem is that JC would have either boxed him or out fought him. Either way JC wins.

The only SMW I would give a chance of beating JC is Watson. That is because Watson was a clever fighter who could adapt to suit the other fighter. I'd still back JC to win.

by Mr Bounce Fri May 17, 2013 8:06 am

Don't forget that by the time JC was due to fight Collins (late '97), Jones had already won, lost and regained his Light-Heavy title, beating McCallum, getting DQ'd against Griffin then wiping him out in the rematch.

A super-middle he was not at that time. However, that said, at that time Collins would not have been in the same ball-park for skills, reflexes, movement or likelihood of winning. He was after the money, pure & simple. JC didn't offer enough for him at that stage of his career. Too much risk for not enough gain.

I believe he (Collins) would have lost to JC in a similar manner to Eubank.

by winchester Fri May 17, 2013 9:13 am

I watched this with interest. The British boys were first class. Well spoken, respectful, honest.

It was a shame the thuggery and ego of Collins and Jones and there desire for a freak show geriatric fight spoiled the process and shouted over everyone else. Collins is a first class thug and Jones is a deluded egomaniac. Let them have it out in a car park.

by tunes666 Fri May 17, 2013 9:21 am

azania wrote: Eubank was washed up and so was Benn.

Eubank was world champ when he fought him, However, JC fought him when he was washed up.

by adamk Fri May 17, 2013 8:17 pm

Didnt collins say he was in training to fight JC?

by jimdig Fri May 17, 2013 8:50 pm

I had heard that Collins had been knocked out in sparring by Howard Eastman so retired. I think classifying it as ducking is farcical. He had said something about calzaghe not selling out his local church hall at the time. I see it as being the same scenario as calzaghe avoiding froch. There was quite a clamouring for that fight rather than the pointless calzaghe Jones retirement fundraiser.

by manos de piedra Fri May 17, 2013 9:18 pm

Ive thought Collins has got a bit of shafting the way hes remembered. I find alot of people think he was this rubbish boxer that was just in the right place at the right time to beat washed up Eubank/Benn and then quickly retired in order to duck Calzaghe.

I think he was actually a very tough opponent that took on tough fights. Gave a very good account of himself early on against McCallum and was unfortunate to lose very tight decisions to Kalambay and Johnson in their backyards. Those losing efforts were better than the winning efforts of many of Eubank, Benn and even Calzaghes fights.

I think Benn was past it when he beat him (think he would have beaten him anyway) but I dont think Eubank shot by any means. They were two very good wins.

He was looking for the big names then. He got Benn who was pretty much finished and then couldnt get a fight with Jones through no real fought of his own although Id give him no chance of winning. I think his explanation for not fighting an upcoming Calzaghe then was perfectly understandable. He had no motivation to go back down and start beating the new guys coming through, he wasnt to know Calzaghe would become a great fighter and he was desperate to fight Jones. Bizzarely Eubank seems to get more credit for admitting ducking Jones and being honest than Collins does for actually looking for the fight.

by TopHat24/7 Fri May 17, 2013 9:39 pm

Was a great show, just sad I only tuned in to the second half!

In time to see Eubank brilliantly needling Collins though "I am a stallion, you were a donkey" was perhaps the best back-handed compliment I've ever heard!!

Barely heard a word from RJJ though (in the second half at least) which was sad as he was more talented than everyone else round the table put together.

Interesting to see Woodhall p***ying out of stating JC would've beaten his mate Froch though. Thought JC came across well, confident but diplomatic..

by jimdig Fri May 17, 2013 9:42 pm

Eubanks was calzaghe toughest fight. Hopkins ran him closer of course, but it was hardly gruelling. He had Kessler figured out after 6. Eubanks was his toughest though.

by AlexHuckerby Fri May 17, 2013 10:40 pm

Missed this, must catch up on Youtube later on. I imagine WOODDYAA would have uploaded it.

Stupid work.

by BoxingFan88 Sat May 18, 2013 1:10 am

azania wrote:JC would have beaten him and I reckon Collins felt the same way also.

The irony of him saying that he adapted his style is ridiculous. He was a pressure fighter and a damn strong and tough guy also. He outworked most people. His problem is that JC would have either boxed him or out fought him. Either way JC wins.

The only SMW I would give a chance of beating JC is Watson. That is because Watson was a clever fighter who could adapt to suit the other fighter. I'd still back JC to win.

What about Ward?

by BoxingFan88 Sat May 18, 2013 1:11 am

winchester wrote:I watched this with interest. The British boys were first class. Well spoken, respectful, honest.

It was a shame the thuggery and ego of Collins and Jones and there desire for a freak show geriatric fight spoiled the process and shouted over everyone else. Collins is a first class thug and Jones is a deluded egomaniac. Let them have it out in a car park.

I think you're being harsh on Jones there, he didn't really react until he was prompted. I thought he spoke well and made a lot of sense.

by BoxingFan88 Sat May 18, 2013 1:13 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:Missed this, must catch up on Youtube later on. I imagine WOODDYAA would have uploaded it.

Stupid work.

Or if you have SkyGo its on there Smile

by BoxingFan88 Sat May 18, 2013 1:16 am

I was also recently watching Jones vs Johnson and a lot of people said Jones style got figured out by that point and that's why he lost.

I completely disagree, I thought Jones looked shot in that fight, moving from Heavyweight to Lightheavyweight really did a number on him. I wouldn't pick anyone (that I have seen fight) to beat Jones in his prime, he was an absolute monster.

Loved Jones reaction to Collins stating Toney was better than him 'I mopped the floor with him'.

Jones is one of the greatest fighters I have ever seen, the things he could do in the ring were unreal.

by TopHat24/7 Sat May 18, 2013 1:35 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:
azania wrote:JC would have beaten him and I reckon Collins felt the same way also.

The irony of him saying that he adapted his style is ridiculous. He was a pressure fighter and a damn strong and tough guy also. He outworked most people. His problem is that JC would have either boxed him or out fought him. Either way JC wins.

The only SMW I would give a chance of beating JC is Watson. That is because Watson was a clever fighter who could adapt to suit the other fighter. I'd still back JC to win.

What about Ward?

Would definitely back Ward to beat JC. Younger hungrier more powerful and technically gifted version of Hopkins who Joe struggled mightily with.

Would also say Ward is streets ahead of anything Joe ever faced in his career.

by manos de piedra Sat May 18, 2013 1:37 am

The story Collins told of seeing Toney in the gym on the speedbag while drinking a litre of fat burger coke - ha.

by BoxingFan88 Sat May 18, 2013 5:12 am

manos de piedra wrote:The story Collins told of seeing Toney in the gym on the speedbag while drinking a litre of fat burger coke - ha.

Haha yeah, he certainly looked like the type.

Its a massive shame because he had some serious talent, shame he didn't live the life. He had it all, great chin good power and great skills.

Still think Jones beats him though.

by BoxingFan88 Sat May 18, 2013 5:15 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
azania wrote:JC would have beaten him and I reckon Collins felt the same way also.

The irony of him saying that he adapted his style is ridiculous. He was a pressure fighter and a damn strong and tough guy also. He outworked most people. His problem is that JC would have either boxed him or out fought him. Either way JC wins.

The only SMW I would give a chance of beating JC is Watson. That is because Watson was a clever fighter who could adapt to suit the other fighter. I'd still back JC to win.

What about Ward?

Would definitely back Ward to beat JC. Younger hungrier more powerful and technically gifted version of Hopkins who Joe struggled mightily with.

Would also say Ward is streets ahead of anything Joe ever faced in his career.

I think that's true and I have already stated on here many times that I thought Hopkins beat him. However that being said Hopkins was allowed to get away with everything under the sun in that fight! He cheated so much in that fight.

Calzaghe always found a way to win though, for every style put in front of him and although I make Ward favourite, I wouldn't say its a foregone conclusion.

I think Roy Jones in his prime would have beaten JC, but they weren't at the same stages during their respective super middleweight reigns.

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