Argentina vs England 2nd test - 8.10pm KO on BBC 2

First topic message reminder :

So with first test a struggle for an inexperienced Argentina side and a mixed bag for England let's hope for a more complete game tonight.

From an England perspective I'd simply like to see an 80 minute performance near the level of last weeks first half. From Argentina I expect they'll have been given a real work over at set piece by their coaches during the week so at the line-out especially I'm expecting a much stronger showing which should challenge England more.

Once again it is being shown on BBC 2 from 8pm for those who want to watch it.

Argentina: M Bustos Moyano (Montpellier); B Agulla (Unattached), G Tiesi (Unattached), G Ascarate (Carcassonne), M Montero (Club Pucara); F Contepomi (Stade Francais), N Vergallo (Southern Kings); G Roan (Cavalieri Prato), M Garcia Veiga (Buenos Aires Cricket and Rugby Club), M Bustos (Montpellier), J Farias Cabello (Unattached), M Galarza (University of La Plata), R Baez (Pampas), B Macome (Tucuman), T Leonardi (Southern Kings).
Replacements: M Guidone (La Plata RC), P Henn (Brive), F Gomez Kodela (Biarritz), E Lozada (Agen), T De la Vega (CUBA), T Cubelli (Belgrano Athletic Club), B Madero (San Isidro), M Orlando (Huirapuca).

England: M Brown (Harlequins); J Joseph (London Irish), K Eastmond (Bath), M Yarde (London Irish); F Burns (Gloucester), L Dickson (Northampton); J Marler (Harlequins), J May (Gloucester), R Webber (Bath), D Wilson (Bath), J Launchbury (Wasps), D Attwood (Bath), T Wood (Northampton, capt), M Kvesic (Worcester), B Morgan (Gloucester).
Replacements: D Paice (London Irish), H Thomas (Sale Sharks), P Doran-Jones (Northampton), C Lawes (Northampton), B Vunipola (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), S Myler (Northampton), B Foden (Northampton).

There are the sides as shown on the BBC website but with Christian Wade called up to the Lions I'm really hoping that Jonny May will get a chance in his place. It's a shame for us not to be seeing Wade in action no doubt but May really deserves a start so I hope he takes his chance with both hands.

Well done again England. 

Scrum and the line-out were superb. Fantastic to see Yarde and Eastmond register tries. What have England learnt on this tour? Our depth is fantastic.

Lots to improve on, and given the opposition difficult to know how impressed we should be by this. That said, there were elements in both games that if England put together for 80, they can step up. 

First game - lots of excellent straight running, superb off-loads.
Second game - Good continuity and phase play, patience, some aggressive clearing out 
Both - Excellent scrum, good line-out. 

Thought Kvesic had a better game today, really showed some good carrying. If his jackaling keeps improving as well I think he's going to be pushing very very hard for the 7 shirt. He also seems to have a nasty streak - I quite like that.

Great performance from England.

Some highlights:
Weber: Part of a superb front row, carried brilliantly. If he could do some finger tip exercises could be our best hooker.
Marler: Great in the loose and in the scrum. Amazing competition for England at loosehead.
Wilson: Looking really good. Great in the scrum. Great carrying. Cole's tackling still gives him the edge.
Yarde: Superb match. He and Wade have to be in pole position for England's wings.
Eastmond: Very threatening - but I think 36's game management and kicking trumps that for now.
Kvesic: Great work effort - probably not enough to displace Robshaw. 

Given that Launchbury was the only player playing in position from the team that lost to Wales, that was a very encouraging performance.

Haven't managed to see the match yet having missed the live showing but looks like a good scoreline, about what I'd expect from the match, and sounds like a much improved showing from Argentina.

I've not seen the game yet - what did the attwood/launchbury pairing go like?

Havnt watched it all yet - just a good chunk of the 2nd half (wanted to see the Eastmond try..) Launchbury seemed very prominent throughout. Attwood cant judge yet but was a lot quieter in the 2nd half than Lawes was when he replaced him. Lawes had a great cameo - lots of brutal tackles and some carries - but then a bunch of big not so mobile argentinians are probably ideal opponents for him.

The two penalty tries must in part be down to the Launchbury/Attwood combo though

I think it was hard to judge a number of players on this match because the team was dominating pretty much across the pitch, especially in the second half.  There were, however, some observations which are interesting. 

The forward pack was brutally effective.  Although this might not have been the best Argentinian side,the pack pushed Los Pumas back almost every time after the first 20 minutes.  As a comparison, the Lions pack was not as strong against the club sides as this England pack was against Argentina. 

Some of the young backs can really play.  Eastmond, in particular, and Yarde were quite good.  Burns was fine, and whether he scored his try or not, certainly did not look out of place.  But, such was the dominance, Stevie Myler looked great at 10 too. 

Lee Dickson was back to showing the quick delivery which is his hallmark with Saints.  Why he was so slow during the 6 Nations with England is a mystery.  This was vintage Dickson.  Wigglesworth was very slow by comparison.   

Ben Morgan.  Great match.  Exactly what England need him to do for a full 80 minutes.

Shouldn't Rob Baxter be getting the plaudits for a really good pack performance as he was the forward coach?

After watching the game yesterday and now to day Lancaster and his coaches are going to have some big headaces come the Ais and the 6ns.


The way Burns played at fly half Toby Flood will have a hard time getting back in the England set up.

Yarde, Eastmond, Kesevis, All had excellent game to day.

The pairing of Atwood and Launchberry in the second row worked really well IMO.

When you look at the amount of caps that the player have, to put in a performance and win like they did was just fantastic.

So a big well done to England.

Well done to England on this tour.  Sadly for Argentina they have had amateur home based players, playing professionals from England and it's showed on this tour. 

If anything it highlights Argentina's problems, their players have to play for 12 months of the year.  Which is why many French clubs have been releasing all but the very best of their players.   

I guess when the debate started about Argentina joining the Tri Nations or the 6 Nations it has proved that the 6 Nations may of been the better option all round.  With any luck Buenos Aires will be allowed to join the Super 15 soon so Argentina can at least have a fighting chance.

I watched the game in a pub with sound off and a bunch of annoying middle aged people who couldn't handle their drink, so you will have to excuse some of my recollections.

Kvesic didn't really stand out for me, he didn't have a bad game and I don't expect results straight away to be honest.  What I did notice is that he looked like a proper link man,  like the open-side is traditionally supposed to be.

Eastmond had a stand out game for me,  he was playing the game like it was a league match with a bit of union thrown in (a good thing for a back IMO).  He played heads up rugby, his passing was crisp and accurate and he threatened the line.  I would like to see what he could do with Manu outside him.

Burns did okay,  but his passes sometimes die on the receiver and put them under pressure and I would like to see him work on his accuracy a little more.  Based on the tour I think he is still behind Farrell and Flood.

Attwood and Launchbury did look good.  Attwood seems to be growing into the role and looked menacing at times. It may be premature but I think Launchbury will be a world-class player in the very near future.  He has the athleticism, handling and brains already,  all he needs is to toughen up his carrying in close contact a bit.  I reckon this will come when he fully matures and he grows into his frame.

Jon Joseph looked okay too,  he reminds me of a classic outside centre like Guscott who uses clever footwork and speed rather than brawn.   It's good that he offers something different to the power runners like Manu Tuilagi.

I don't think I need to say much about Yarde,  but May was disappointingly quiet.

Cumbrian,

In some ways I had a very different impression

I felt that Kvesic did really well, last week he showed his appetite for tackling, this week he seemed to be at every break down, securing our ball, slowing down or turning over theirs. He was also to the fore ball in hand.
Meanwhile I was disappointed by Joseph - felt his standard ploy was to dummy a pass, then step inside running right into the closest defender.

Owens has a habit of ending ruck contests very quickly so the attacking team gets quick ball. So Kvesic got told to leave it when he was (IMO) legitimately competing.

The only way to get past this seems to be ignoring Owens and then when you win the ball he waves play on (one of the reasons I don't like his reffing).

Fair enough London Tiger,  I will give the game another look this afternoon.  I often find it hard to spot plays and identify players when I am in a pub.

Well, different people will always have different impressions. We all see different stuff.

A mixed bag for me, some of the below you could see as a positive or negative. 

Positives

- Scrum - We have top class scrummaging back-up. Hopefully Paice and PDJ can be shown the door. 

- Lineout - I thought went pretty well and we have a good 3rd option at hooker.

- Continuity - Some good patience and phase play that looked irresistible at times. Possibly Baxter's influence? I also saw England players hitting the line at pace as well - unprecedented, although helped by a passive Argentinian defensive line. 

- Midfield - I actually think we have interesting options here now. JJ wasn't amazing, but his skills in every possible way are superior to Manu's. If he was the same size, he'd be nailed on in the position. 36 looked good in the first game, but needs to fix his defence. Eastmond also looked promising. Not the finished articles but far better options than we've had in a while. Generally the handling across the board was very good, good passing from forwards and backs, good hands, carrying in both hands keeping the defence honest etc. 

- Wings - We have proper wingers. Both Wade and Yarde looked great. I think Yarde is a natural fit for the left wing. 

- Other newbies. Attwood I never rated, but his power was impressive - mainly as the only guy in the tight I saw driving attackers back. Also seemed to help with the scrum. I actually thought he was significantly better than Lawes. Kvesic looked like he could be an option at 7, he seemed to improve in the second game. I think both may be slow-burners who need time at this level. Whether they get it though...

Negatives

- Our defence of pick and go drives around the ruck is powder-puff and hasn't been improved. Better teams will exploit this, we need a far more aggressive defence close in that smashes people back as a poor side made hay against us with relative ease in this area. Generally I thought our defence was nice and aggressive but occasionally looked a tad ragged. 

- Morgan was brilliant in the first game, but in the second he was targeted. We know we're a better team with a proper 8, but I think we need a core of carriers, not just poor BM doing it all himself. 

- Offloading. Great in the first game, almost non-existent in the second. I think Argentina worked hard to prevent it but it was a shame to see we didn't build on it. I suppose when it's not on, it's not on.

Hood83 wrote:A mixed bag for me, some of the below you could see as a positive or negative. 

Positives

- Scrum - We have top class scrummaging back-up. Hopefully Paice and PDJ can be shown the door. 

- Lineout - I thought went pretty well and we have a good 3rd option at hooker.

- Continuity - Some good patience and phase play that looked irresistible at times. Possibly Baxter's influence? I also saw England players hitting the line at pace as well - unprecedented, although helped by a passive Argentinian defensive line. 

- Midfield - I actually think we have interesting options here now. JJ wasn't amazing, but his skills in every possible way are superior to Manu's. If he was the same size, he'd be nailed on in the position. 36 looked good in the first game, but needs to fix his defence. Eastmond also looked promising. Not the finished articles but far better options than we've had in a while. Generally the handling across the board was very good, good passing from forwards and backs, good hands, carrying in both hands keeping the defence honest etc. 

- Wings - We have proper wingers. Both Wade and Yarde looked great. I think Yarde is a natural fit for the left wing. 

- Other newbies. Attwood I never rated, but his power was impressive - mainly as the only guy in the tight I saw driving attackers back. Also seemed to help with the scrum. I actually thought he was significantly better than Lawes. Kvesic looked like he could be an option at 7, he seemed to improve in the second game. I think both may be slow-burners who need time at this level. Whether they get it though...

Negatives

- Our defence of pick and go drives around the ruck is powder-puff and hasn't been improved. Better teams will exploit this, we need a far more aggressive defence close in that smashes people back as a poor side made hay against us with relative ease in this area. Generally I thought our defence was nice and aggressive but occasionally looked a tad ragged. 

- Morgan was brilliant in the first game, but in the second he was targeted. We know we're a better team with a proper 8, but I think we need a core of carriers, not just poor BM doing it all himself. 

- Offloading. Great in the first game, almost non-existent in the second. I think Argentina worked hard to prevent it but it was a shame to see we didn't build on it. I suppose when it's not on, it's not on.

Let us see what we can do with PDJ as a first choice next season. We improved JJ's and helped Marler's scrummaging, let's not write him off yet

Also, wasn't PDJ playing mostly on his less preferred LH side?

Remember that the scrum laws change next season - probably in favour of strong and technical scrummagers over those who rely only on power. I don't think it will affect the best front rows, like Cole, but I think PDJ may benefit. Marler definitely will, mainly because his main weakness (an illegal bind on the arm by an opposing TH) will be largely nullified.

Poorfour wrote:Also, wasn't PDJ playing mostly on his less preferred LH side?

Remember that the scrum laws change next season - probably in favour of strong and technical scrummagers over those who rely only on power. I don't think it will affect the best front rows, like Cole, but I think PDJ may benefit. Marler definitely will, mainly because his main weakness (an illegal bind on the arm by an opposing TH) will be largely nullified.

Marler has also been very good in the scrum against the traditionally hard scrummaging nations, South Africa and Argentina. It's been against Australia and Wales that he has struggled!

Under the current laws, Marler's style of binding - a long arm to the back of the shirt - is vulnerable to an opponent illegally binding on the sleeve. In both the Australia and Wales games, the assistant refs repeatedly missed or ignored this, and even awarded penalties against him for failing to make his bind. He's clearly been working on countering the tactic, but the new laws should help a lot.

Surely all binding is vulnerable to binding on the sleeve? But I get what you mean. However if he get's his bind in first it probably makes him less vulnerable to this sort of binding.