Scotland V Italy - End of season redemption

First topic message reminder :

Scotland

15 Peter Murchie (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap

14 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap
13 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 14 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
11 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 78 caps, 10 tries, 50 points

10 Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby) 2 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) CAPTAIN 20 caps, 2 tries, 18 conversions, 44 penalties, 178 points

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 26 caps, 1 try, 5 points
2 Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons) 37 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 55 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
4 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap
5 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 54 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 13 caps
7 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) vice-captain 34 caps, 1 try, 5 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 23 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

Substitutes

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 20 caps
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap
19 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 2 caps
20 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Duncan Taylor (Saracens) 2 caps
23 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 11 caps, 6 tries, 30 points

Italy

Italy: 15 Andrea Masi, 14 Leonardo Sarto, 13 Luca Morisi, 12 Alberto Sgarbi, 11 Giovanbattista Venditti, 10 Alberto Di Bernardo, 9 Tobias Botes, 8 Sergio Parisse (capt), 7 Robert Barbieri, 6 Joshua Furno, 5 Marco Bortolami, 4 Leandro Cedaro, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Davide Giazzon, 1 Matias Aguero.
Replacements: 16 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17 Alberto De Marchi, 18 Lorenzo Cittadini, 19 Antonio Pavanello, 20 Alessandro Zanni, 21 Alberto Chillon, 22 Gonzalo Canale, 23 Luke McLean

Kick off - 13:15

Referee - Haven't a scooby


Previous results

South Africa 30 - Scotland 17
Samoa 27 - Scotland 17

RDW_Scotland wrote:

jelly wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:2 weeks in a row we've lost out because of these extended tmo powers - think its fair to say I'm not a fan!

I read that and (understandably) thought you'd lost. I then checked the score and saw you'd got a last minute winner!

Last week Hamilton got binned on the TMOs orders even though the ref and linesman thought it was fine - this week Matt Scott had a great try disallowed because the replay suggested it was marginally forward even though the ref was OK with it in live action. If it wasn't for the extended TMO powers these things wouldn't have happened.

Of course if these things had happened to the opposition I would be singing it's praises!

Not sure I agree with you - both incidents were referred to the TMO by the ref so he clearly wasn't happy that they were fine.  Both decisions were correct if marginal.  When the TMO did try to involve himself beyond his remit last week the ref politely told him he wasn't interested.  As you said, you'd probably be singing its praises if they went Scotland's way.

Galted - my tongue is firmly in my cheek here!

My point is that I am fairly sure the ref wouldn't have binned Hamilton and the Scott try would have been given if these extra TMO powers weren't allowed.

Obviously though I'm hoping it will even itself out in the future and we'll benefit from the extra TMO replays

I'm in the process of getting merrily drunk so any tongue-in-cheek subtlety/sarcasm/irony is lost on me.

Yeah, I was probably a bit harsh on Denton, who Ill promote to "meh" for the game as a whole. Its just that that pass was the stupidest, most ludicrous attempt ive seen in an international, and the resulting scrum cost us 3 points. Fine margins and all...

@ RDW_Scotland

Having watched the SA-Samoa game I'm inclined to agree with you re TMOs, twice made decisions he wasn't called on to make, this time the ref took it on board.  Makes it worse that it's a local making the decisions & influencing the game.  Luckily only had a bearing on the scoreline & not the result but it is a disaster waiting to happen.

I missed the game but it sounds like once again Scott and Strokosch played well amongst mediocrity.

Pleased we won, but overall the tour has probably been par. Pleased that Dunbar and Scott have had 3 games together.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I missed the game but it sounds like once again Scott and Strokosch played well amongst mediocrity.

Pleased we won, but overall the tour has probably been par. Pleased that Dunbar and Scott have had 3 games together.

If Dunbar plays 12 fo Glasgow this season which is pretty likely atm, it should really up the competition in the centres, with Baby steps Bennett hopefully getting an extended run at 13 before being pulled out into the world of international rugby, just like he was pulled out of his mothers womb a couple of years ago.

For the meantime however, Matt Scott has stitched his name into the 12 jersey.

Does anyone have a link to footage of this game? Not overly impressed with Saffer TV coverage.

Everyone is waxing lyrical about FES' secret son, Matt Scott which is great to see because we've needed a proper 12 for some time. Nice piece in the Herald where Scott Johnson talks about MS and mentions that he's as talented as any centre he's ever worked with - he just needs to raise his confidence and see that he's as good as anyone out there.

SJ also makes the point that if Scott was a Kiwi, people would have told him how good he was already but as a Scot, he may have been "knocked down a bit". That rings absolutely and depressingly true and demonstrates the value of southern hemisphere optimism.

GC, Saffa commentary unfortunately, but better than a squeeze of your balls (ask Adriaan Strauss):

https://youtu.be/PDAZdja2GJU

Incidentally, I didn't get commentary. Wasn't allowed.

I watched the match at a pub in Haymarket and was told that having the sound on will "disturb the other guests". Considering that the only other 'guest' was a drunk guy who kept asking if I had any tattoos ("No, sorry" I said, sounding more Surrey than I have in my entire life), I was just a little bit disappointed.

IanBru wrote:GC, Saffa commentary unfortunately, but better than a squeeze of your balls (ask Adriaan Strauss):

https://youtu.be/PDAZdja2GJU

Incidentally, I didn't get commentary. Wasn't allowed.

I watched the match at a pub in Haymarket and was told that having the sound on will "disturb the other guests". Considering that the only other 'guest' was a drunk guy who kept asking if I had any tattoos ("No, sorry" I said, sounding more Surrey than I have in my entire life), I was just a little bit disappointed.

He must have found his way over on a train from the west coast.

George Carlin wrote:

IanBru wrote:GC, Saffa commentary unfortunately, but better than a squeeze of your balls (ask Adriaan Strauss):

https://youtu.be/PDAZdja2GJU

Incidentally, I didn't get commentary. Wasn't allowed.

I watched the match at a pub in Haymarket and was told that having the sound on will "disturb the other guests". Considering that the only other 'guest' was a drunk guy who kept asking if I had any tattoos ("No, sorry" I said, sounding more Surrey than I have in my entire life), I was just a little bit disappointed.

He must have found his way over on a train from the west coast.

GC remember on the west coast the polite question to ask a stranger in a licensed premise is, "Why don't you have any tattoos?" 
Ian as this was Edinburgh are you not sure he wasn't enquiring as to whether you were in "The Tatoo".

Jimbo, it's certainly possible. When he said to me "Aw maaaaaate, show us yer tattoooo, ken", did he think I owned the Tattoo?

Crikey, the mind boggles. To be honest, if I had the power to summon Brazilians, Swedes and Italians to an international event that I was hosting, it seems a bit of a waste for them to be soldiers.

Ian, if you had the power to summon Swedes and Italians with brazilians...You wouldn't be wasting your time on this board.

Scott the standout player of the tour? Surely he was MOTM on sat?
I said he should have been away with the Lions.  In terms of stats he was the best performing 12 in the 6n's. Stats can be misleading I know, but this has proven that he is a consitently good player
The thing with Scott is that he is not "flashy" he is an all round good player.  In order to get noticed more he needs to do some daft wee flick passes or something I fear!
He is one for the future though!
Strok's aqquitted himself well again. He just needs to keep that level of intensity up for future internationals!
Denton showed glimpses of getting back to form.
Laidlaw was ok I guess.
Murray needs to move over and let someone else take the tighthead spot!
Kellock needs to retire! Swinson and Gray are the future for Scotland.
Overall, it was neither a steop forward nor a step back for scotland! We need to bring the intensity we showed against SA into every game we play! not just once ina blue moon!!! Unless we get the breakdown sorted and learn how to boss a game more, then we are not going to improve at all!

The tournament did what we needed it to - we blooded 10 new caps.

It showcased Swinson, Scott, Dunbar and Strokosch. Denton showed up, for once, Lawson did himself a service and Laidlaw continues to be Mr Cool with the goalkicking. Heathcote wasn't too bad and has shown enough to be an experiment worth continuing with. Schlong achieved a new lease of life and I respect him much more as a pick now.

As a team, we took ages to get started for the first game, played a good second game and lost and played a urine poor third game and won. Broadly, it was something definitely worth doing.

Major pluses from this tour:
1.Matt Scott looks like he is a genuine quality international 12.
2. Dunbar looks able to form a good partnership with Scott (at least until the messiah is ready!)
3. Swinson is an international standard lock and is able to carry dynamically as well as defend superbly.
4. Jon Welsh is our second best scrumamging loosehead and should be on the bench ahead of Low for that slot.
5. Tommy Seymour looks like he can put real pressure on Visser and hopefully force the big man to tackle from time to time.
6. Lamont looked lively and more relaxed playing back in his best postion on the wing.
7. Heathcote is developing well and will give us much needed depth at fly half.
Particulaly with the injuries to Horne and Jackson
8. Strokosch still has his mojo and hopefully can enjoy another strong season with Perpingnan and Scotland.


Overall, after a poor start the tour has shown that we have a bit of depth in some positions: 1, 4, 6, 10, and wing but are still lacking depth in others: 3,5, 7, 9.
Hopefully this season some of the youngsters in the Scottish sides will get some game time (Kennedy and Bennett in particular) and help to strenghten the squad even further.

I think the scoreline on Saturday really flattered us, we got a doo'in up front. The Scrum was a shambles and trying to convert Lowe to a loosehead just isnae working.

Why Welsh wasn't on from the start I have no Idea.

Kellock really can't compete physically anymore, his carries are weak and he does nothing at the breakdown. Getting into the team on lineout ability alone isn't enough, especially when our lineout is prone to misfiring anyway.

Denton looked to be pretty good IMO, strong carries and I was relieved to see his knee injury wasn't too bad.

Stroks again really put his hand up, but he needs to maintain these performances. He always seems to play well in the summer but struggles in the 6N and in The Autumn, perhaps it's club related issues.

Scott was excellent, he defended well and ran a great support line for his try.

Finally Laidlaw looked very assured at Scrum half and looked comfy at fly half.

Glad to get the win with such a long list of absentees but we still have a lot of work to do.

The Samoa performance and result was very disappointing, but the performance against South Africa and the result against Italy were good, and there's no question some key new players were given a chance.

The biggest plus must be the Scott and Dunbar centre partnership. Many on here have been wanting to see them together for a good while now, and Scott in particularly had two strong performances against South Africa and Italy. He's getting better and better and you can see his confidence in his game now.

Tim Swinson has also confirmed what we've all suspected now for the last year, that he's the man for the Scotland boiler room. Fast, powerful and aggressive. He doesn't have the bulk and height of a great lock, but he's considerably better than Gilchrist and Kellock. He should start in the AIs with Gray.

Two older hands, Strokosch (my Scotland player of the series, being the most consistent performer in the three games) and Lamont also came to life on this tour, and whilst you'd expect Brown and Visser to play their way back in next season, it's not a foregone conclusion (particularly in Visser's case).

I'm generally positive about the tour. We've seen some new strengths in the players and some weaknesses as well. Clearly a work in progress, but with the Lions and injured players returning in the AIs I think we can cause some problems for the opposition.

I didn't see the whole game but I tuned in for a bit to witness what must be the most comical try scored in the last 20 years.  Was it Lamont?  What a circus juggling act that one was.

I don't know what you're talking about. World class finish. Lamont better than North.

no one can pish on lamonts performance on sat!

The man is like a posessed demon when he pulls on the Scotland jersey!

He made plenty good tackles! He made many metres with ball in hand, often crashing through a few itallian defenders! He came looking for work and never puffed out from any of his duties!

He may not be the flashiest player or the most skillful but he he always gives 100%

Had he not been in such a poor backline for all these years he could have had a shot at the Lions??? Maybe??? I dunno!

But he gives his all!

Respect the Schlong!

tigertattie wrote:no one can pish on lamonts performance on sat!

The man is like a posessed demon when he pulls on the Scotland jersey!

He made plenty good tackles! He made many metres with ball in hand, often crashing through a few itallian defenders! He came looking for work and never puffed out from any of his duties!

He may not be the flashiest player or the most skillful but he he always gives 100%

Had he not been in such a poor backline for all these years he could have had a shot at the Lions??? Maybe??? I dunno!

But he gives his all!

Respect the Schlong!

OK! Will do that! I think he's a great player! Let's see if he can last til the word cup! Exclamation mark!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

tigertattie wrote:no one can pish on lamonts performance on sat!

The man is like a posessed demon when he pulls on the Scotland jersey!

He made plenty good tackles! He made many metres with ball in hand, often crashing through a few itallian defenders! He came looking for work and never puffed out from any of his duties!

He may not be the flashiest player or the most skillful but he he always gives 100%

Had he not been in such a poor backline for all these years he could have had a shot at the Lions??? Maybe??? I dunno!

But he gives his all!

Respect the Schlong!

OK! Will do that! I think he's a great player! Let's see if he can last til the word cup! Exclamation mark!

Well if he lasted till then he'd surely get close to 100 caps? On 79 at the moment, now wouldn't that be something, Schlong the centurion!

Bloody right! I am constantly impressed with shlong's athleticism. He is a legendary player. I think he really looks his best on the wing and needs to stay there permanently now. 

I've just watched Scotland vs South Africa game and I have to say, Scotland were all over SA in that first 50 mins. I think the reason Scotland looked so good was the pressure they put on South Africa. A lot of the time Scotland seem to have momentary phases of pressure, yet in that game players like Scott, Swinson and lamont were constantly breaking the gain line and really making the SA defence scramble. Swinson in particularly was running on to the ball very well and going for solo direct runs, much like talei and cox did for Edinburgh during their great heiniken cup campaign. Laidlaw was looking much sharper, delivering some quicker ball. Also, the forwards were protecting the rucks so much better. Unlike the 6 nations where they looked very fragile.

What was annoying however, was the silly penalties. Scotland didn't need to have lazy runners and players not rolling away. They also could have shown a bit more composure with some final offloads. Scott In particular tried a few impossible passes which resulted in SA winning the ball back. Also, they lost their cool after the penalty try. I really feel cotter will be good at fixing that aspect of their game, providing more discipline for the restarts and when the other side start to come back. Realistically, Scotland should never have lost that game. 

Very promising however, especially the variation of play in attack. This will hopefully only get better as players progress. 

I quite fancy the idea of Horne at 10 for Scotland, he is classy player and could be the answer if you ask me. Horne and weir.

Not sure about heathcote anymore, he looked out of his depth.

it is early days to judge but Heathcote looks far more composed than Horne!

Horne was like a rabbit in the headlights!

With Shlong, the problem he has with getting 100 caps is
1. he is getting on a bit now!
2. Visser and Maitland could play a large part in Shlong not getting picked ot play on the wing often!

79 caps though is not to be sniffed at!

Heathcote was very average in both games he played. Must be, at best, the No. 4 f/h after Weir, Jackson and Horne

I don't think Heathcote looked average at all. Did the simple things very effectively, distributed well to his centres. He's also a superb place kicker, which should mean we don't have to play Laidlaw if Laidlaw is off form.

I think Heathcote and Horne, if Horne is serious about being a 10, need to get a decent run behind them in their clubs at pro level. Heathcote was solid yet unspectacular (Like Murchie at 15) but a possible good option in the long run. Horne seemed a bit flustered, although nothing was particularly good against Samoa and he didn't get much of a chance against SA. One thing we can look at though, is that with Laidlaw and Hogg in the team, being guff at goal kicking isn't going to harm a player's chances too much.

I hope that going forward, we don't just throw all our eggs in the Weir/Heathcote basket. We Scots so love to pick a player for 10 and stick with them through thick and thin hoping they will come good (see Godman, Jackson). We need to let the likes of Finn Russell and Tommy Allan develop, and if they string together some good performances then get them in with the Scotland squad to train at least. Same goes for the likes of Jonny Gray, Jamie Farndale and Sam Hidalgo-Clyne. If they show promise, bring them on but don't pile pressure on them as the next big thing by virtue of not being the incumbent. 

Big plusses on the tour for Matt Scott and Strokers, Swinson stepped up well, as did Dunbar (although I agree he is more of a 12 than 13, watch this space for ).

I notice that our favourite prodigal son wasn't shortlisted for world junior player of the year, must be a biased selection! Were the Lions selectors the shortlisting panel?! I notice there's no emoticon for opening a can of worms...

Some strong showings for the Scots Lions today.  Grant did very well in the scrum but looked a little puggled going around the pitch, which is surprising. Gray was outstanding yet again and it is a real shame he's not Welsh or English (well, not for us!).  Maitland had his best game by far and I'm delighted he got more involved - was screaming at him in the Reds game to get on the ball!  Hogg didn't get much of a chance but one thing is for sure - he can smack the leather off the ball! Should definitely be taking kicks to touch for Scotland.

Yes, the Scots did well today RDW but will doubtless remain insufficiently Welsh/fashionable to earn a spot in the 23. The talk about Evans being a better option than Gray is simply wrong (in the context of how they have played on this tour) in every conceivable respect but on these boards, you would be more likely to successfully advocate that Silvio Berlusconi is a kindly, misunderstood old man.

Grant did contribute to a couple of monster scrums but was clearly affected by Delve's early intervention as he did not seem his usual cool self. Reports are that Corbs won't make it, so I imagine there's a bench spot there for Grant at least. I hope that he does himself justice because he's here on merit.

Does anyone else think, and I'm just going to throw this out there, that the Scots players seem a little cowed or intimidated by the whole Lions jamboree? I can't remember who wrote it but someone mentioned that the Scots had seemingly been marginalised on this tour. I can't decide what I think about that but if it were true, it would be a massive shame and something of a waste.

I saw an interview with Gavin Hastings years ago where he said it was absolutely no coincidence that the last couple of Scottish grand slams in the 5N came off the back of successful Lions tours, the simple reason being that all of the press candy floss and bullsh!t was cut through and in close quarters the Scots players realised that they were every bit as capable as their colleagues.

Whats the bet Tom Courts on the bench for saturday?

The marginalised bit was me and looking at the faces, reactions and playing styles of all the scots on tour I still stand by it. 

Think about it. You don't want to label but when you come on tour you are initially, at least, labeled a Scot. And one of the only 3 scots on tour. Not only that they were all young / relatively new to Intl rugby. 

How long did it take Gatland, Warburton and co. to stop mentioning "Wales" ? In fact Warburton mentioned Wales in the post-victory interview last Saturday, saying it was so hard "for the lads" to lose in the last moments and now at least it didn't happen.

Add to that the coaching team is half Welsh, half English, the English guys will feel at home. The Irish have BOD and POC to hide behind and feel confident behind. Who do the Scots have? 

Maitland looked out of sorts from day 1 and, come on, he just played a great round robin of 6N rugby in his first international season, so it's unlikely to be "just nerves". I understand training plays a part, but Maitland was ignored for a few matches in a row at the start of the tour, and Gray never appeared to be close to the test side in terms of patterns for first/second team, despite playing well. Hogg was shunted to 10 so told, basically, he wasn't going to be a 15.

Ok, getting ranty, gonna stop  but it has seemed to me that all 4 Scots have been 'forcing it' a bit to prove a point since day 1 and it hasn't helped. I don't think the marginalisation is intentional, bias is going to happen no matter how hard you try, but I think this needs to be worked on next tour.

Try bringing the 7 or 8 Scots that might deserve to go next time, including at least 1 old head (by that time let's say it might be Gray), see what difference it makes.

It's impossible to say how many Scots will "deserve" to go next time. Based on Scott Johnson's performance as coach thus far I'd predict it won't be very many.

I must say I don't react well to suggestions that the touring Scots are victims in some way, or marginalised or have "had their confidence shot". The only Scot with perhaps any case to moan is Stuart Hogg, and purely because he was clearly picked for the squad on the false basis that he's a utility back, when he isn't. He's a very good 15 and should have gone on tour as a candidate to start at 15 in the Test series (albeit that Halfpenny has done a fine job nailing down that spot). I think he should be ahead of Kearney in the pecking order, who frankly should have been sent home early doors for not being fit.

Richie Gray has no case for moaning. He's had chances to put his hand up and through the tour has not performed as strongly as AWJ, POC and Parling. Given his form and injuries this year, he's frankly lucky to be in the squad in the first place.

Same goes for Maitland. He was on the bench for the first test and has played a number of times on the tour, mixing some great touches with some not so great moments, including missing that tackle earlier in the tour. He's got strong opposition for that 14 jersey from Cuthbert and Bowe, and I see no bias whatsoever in him "only" making the bench for the 1st Test.

I don't blame Gatland and the Lions for the fact that we have so few players involved in the tour and the Test series, the problems start closer to home: Stuart Moffatt, Andy Robinson, Michael Bradley, the SRU, whoever was responsible for the Edinburgh signings last season, Scott Johnson and Dean Ryan and last but certainly not least, the players who have the abilities to be Lions but haven't played to their potential for whatever reason - Euan Murray (Matt Stevens), Ross Ford (Dylan Hartley and Rory Best), David Denton (Dan Lydiate and Jamie Heaslip), Greg Laidlaw (Connor Murray) and Tim Visser (Cuthbert, Zebo, Wade and Kearney).

These guys have the ability to match the players listed in brackets. It's not Gatland's fault that they've had poor seasons, and it's not Gatland's fault that Ross Rennie wasn't in contention to compete for the openside jersey.

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Richie Gray has no case for moaning. He's had chances to put his hand up and through the tour has not performed as strongly as AWJ, POC and Parling. Given his form and injuries this year, he's frankly lucky to be in the squad in the first place.

You have spent too much time on these boards listening to the tripe that is getting shovelled out on the Lions Threads.

Your rugby Knowledge is without question but your judgement on this comment is. POC aside I can't think what any of the other candidates have done better consistently than Gray this tour. He has tackled, carried, stolen lineout ball and has had a better or comparable work rate.

The midweek game last week dented Gray's chances and the blame could almost exclusively be placed on Best who's lineout throwing was akin to a 10 thumbed man wearing mittens. That and the fact that our flankers went AWOL for the bulk of the game. In the unlikely event that our set piece didn't misfire the ball was thrown out to a set of backs who had barely played together.

One poorer performance was enough to condemn the bulk of that team to the bench or worse not even getting a sniff of Lions Test match rugby.

AWJ wasn't exactly electric at the weekend. He certainly wasn't as good as he was against the 'Tahs.

Totally agree on Gray - can't believe people have been saying he's not been playing well, what the hell?!

Just because he's not been making line breaks doesn't mean he's off form. The other locks really haven't done much more than he's done.

Will be a travesty if he's not involved with any of the tests

AWJ was outstanding against the Tah's - probably the pick of the second row performances on the tour. If you play like that the Saturday before the tour, in conjuction with the obvious lock partner in POC, then you're going to be starting the 1st Test regardless of whether the Lions coach is Warren Gatland or William Wallace.

Parling has also played mighty well when given the chance on this tour, and, most importantly in this instance, can replace POC as the main jumper in the middle of the lineout. Whilst I think Richie's lineout work has improved recently, there's no doubt that Parling is the like for like replacement for POC.

I do think Richie Gray should be on the bench though, and I also think that had AWJ rather than POC been ruled out, then Gray would have been the obvious replacement rather than Parling.

But let's go back to first principles. Richie Gray hadn't played rugby in months prior to this tour and other than in a Scotland jersey in flashes, hasn't played well all year. We all know that he has the stature and abilities to be a truly great lock, but he really was a lucky lad getting into that touring party given his injuries. Joe Launchbury and Donnacha Ryan both had stronger cases based on rugby played this year, so I reiterate, we have no right to moan regarding Richie's involvement on this tour. He may yet make the bench for Saturday and come on at a key point in the deciding Test match.

RDW - to be clear I'm not saying he isn't playing well (although others are), I'm saying that on balance I think AWJ, POC and Parling have edged him, and if you're looking for a like for like replacement for POC to run the lineout, then Parling is the right choice.

The Lions are very strong at lock, make no mistake. Evans, who is looking like being at the bottom of the pecking order, is an outstanding player who in my view would be 1st choice lock for the Wallabies.

I'm afraid - treatment of Hogg aside - I just don't see the injustice towards us Scots.

I'd agree on awj and O'Connoll but parling hasn't been much of a stand out.

AWJ did play well against the 'Tahs but he has been little more than average all year, including the Lions tour.

I distinctly remember him missing the bulk of the 6N and being annonymous in his pro12 games he played in, most notably against Glasgow and Munster.

AWJ picked a good time to hit the best from of his life. Certainly in a Welsh jersey he seems to do little else apart from sing the anthem with gusto.

Charteris and Evans IMO are better players.

AWJ IMO is just as lucky as Gray to tour ahead of Launchbery and Ryan.

He missed the bulk of the 6 Nations, but he came back and played very strongly in the decider, certainly a better performance than anything Gray has come up with this season, and in the biggest game of the year. I thought he was very good against the Tah's and influential in the 1st Test. He also has a lot more international and Lions experience than Gray, which matters to some (although not me particularly).

You can argue it both ways, clearly, but let's hold off on this grave injustice business. I'm a huge fan of Richie Gray, he has the potential to be a world class player, but frankly put his career has stalled this season following a daft move to Sale and hes fortunate that his 2011-12 performances were so compelling such as to leave a big impression on Gatland and co.

The only player with a genuine grievance in my book is Stuart Hogg - but then again he needed a big performance against the Baa Baas to set the tone and although he played ok, had he held on to that sweaty bar of soap in Hong Kong on one of those offload opportunities then he could perhaps have made a more telling impression on Gatland and Howley.

Gray is getting some harsh criticism in my opinion.  

Before this season everyone complained that he was a show pony and didn't do enough dirty stuff.  Yet this season, for Scotland at least, he's carried less but his general work-rate has been fantastic.

Had a tough season with Sale, which was a poor move on his part.  But he performed well for Scotland in November before his injury, was one of our best players against ABs, and then had a good first 3 games in 6 Nations getting through a pile of work.

The guy is a freak, 6"10 and 19 odd stone but still capable of running around for 80 minutes.  He's an intelligent rugby player, which he doesn't get credit for, and has good ball skills in contact.  Plus his size and athleticism make him very useful at the line-out and his scrummaging is good (when not with Mr A. Kellock).  

Parling is a good committed player and quality line-out operator but his lack of bulk could be an issue. Corbiserio is out of the weekend so we are down to two perceived weaker scrummagers in Grant and Vunipola, we were hardly dominant last week so could really hand Australia the advantage by picking a smaller lock combination.

I'd shift AW Jones to 5 and have him lead line-out, start Gray at 4 and try get him carrying ball in the wider channels at some point.  We've been expecting the Lions to physically dominate Australia for the past 4 years yet last week I'd say they were on top of us, I'd introduce some bulk in the shape of Gray and Lydiate for Saturday.

There are a couple of underlying issues here and both are very interesting
 
1. What makes one player be selected over another
 
This was a ripe topic of conversation when the Lions squad was being selected and it's equally applicable now when the test teams are being chosen. You could, naturally, argue for Gatland and Rowntree picking players that they know, but I think if we're honest, there's more to it than that.
 
Unfortuantely, selection is a binary process. Either you're selected or you aren't. We can't know how long Gats and girlfriends agonised for or whether they knock a whole test 23 out in 10 minutes and then go for a glass of syrah. What I am willing to believe is that the margins are very fine and if Scottish players aren't making the tighter decisions, there are probably quite a few reasons why.
 
The one I am most interested in (and it came up in a piece in the Herald about why Kelly Brown wasn't selected) is the notion that whilst a lot of Scots players are regarded as acceptably skillful, hard working and consummate professionals, they are not seen as winners. Like it or not, I can't shake the feeling that there's something to this. You can shine in a weak team (like Visser) but if a call is tight (not even just 50:50), a manager will go with the players whom you associate with success. You remember seeing them in the marquee games. The play-offs. The Heineken Cup. The World Cups. Like it or not, past success is often more valuable than present form if that doesn't translate into a photo in the newspapers of you spraying champagne around.
 
I think that this is definitely an issue with the Scots players here. Let me be absolutely clear - it is not the only reason for selection or ommission by any means and I am as guilty as anyone of perhaps wanting our players to be better than they are. However, it's a thing and in the world of professional sport being associated with a successful team makes you look more successful. The bad news is that there's nothing Scots players can do about it now.
 
The good thing is that this is a perception which can be changed. We just need to start turning all of this godawful watery 'potential' into real and consistent results that the world notices. Unfortunately, nothing else in the sporting world has genuine currency. Glasgow has started this off and needs to back it up.
 
2. Scotland players as 'victims' or unfairly treated
 
FES - I think that you're perhaps being a little hard on our man PatersonIs. Nobody would say that there is absolutely no argument whatsoever that this might be the case, regardless of the complimentary view that it's up to the players to make of the tour what they will.
 
I think that your reaction is as strong as mine because I absolutely (as a general, hypothetical behavioural trait, which I should add I do not attribute to any person posting on these boards or any Scotland player) despise beyond measure the Scottish attitude of being a victim. I have seen it in a large number of Scottish people, both at home and abroad - usually the ones that "hate England and the English" for no discernible reason other than bigotry and because the anger about feeling insignificant has to go somewhere (productive or unproductive). It's one of the things that I honestly believe is holding back a lot of improvement in a lot of people - it's so much easier to sit and complain about something than actually step-up to change your lot and do something about this.
 
I don't want Scots rugby players to complain that they got the fuzzy end of the lollipop when it comes to marginal decisions. I want to see from our future players the sort of attitude that I've seen from players in the past (Finlay Calder, a past Lions winning series captain being a great example) - which is that if I didn't make the cut now, the next time there's a selection decision, I'm going to be so far ahead of the competition that [insert name of fat, Kiwi coach de jour] cannot possibly leave me out.
 
If our players are real men and real sporting professionals, then we shouldn't be looking to the past selection decisions that didn't favour us (for whatever reason) - we should immediately be looking ahead to the future ones and promising ourselves that we're going to make sure it is us in that test shirt. I see this in young Hogg and that attitude (although very difficult to sustain honestly) is the difference between quite good players and world class ones.
 
We have *got* to stop regarding self belief like that as arrogance. If there's one thing I would eliminate from Scottish media of all descriptions, it's Tall Poppy Syndrome.
 
I seem to have wandered off piste a little here...

I would hardly say the Aussies were "on top of us" physically last week. When Adam Jones and Alex Corbisiero left the part they had parity, but before that they were comprehensively out muscled at the scrum. Just watch that first shove again.

As we've learned with Al Kellock, size doesn't necessarily translate to scrum power. Tim Swinson channels more power through his little toe than Kellock does through his entire body. I've never felt that the Leicester or England scrum was particularly weak as a result of having Parling an integral part of the boiler room.

I think Gray should be on the bench, then when Croft gets taken off for SOB, AWJ can make way for Gray. With Parling and Croft on the pitch, the Lions need to make more of the lineout opportunities. If they simply want to chuck it to the front, then the case for playing both Parling and Croft is diminished.

FES I would hardly say we hand dominance with Corbisiero and Jones on the park, a couple powerful scrums but we hardly choked them out the game up front.

This guy's analyse has been pretty good:


(note the scrum penalty the Lions win when Jones collapses the scrum, resulted in the line-out which led to Cuthbert's try)

Now if you select Parling, we have a pretty small lock combination by International standards and are in danger of under-powering an already weakened front-row, which isn't huge with Youngs in the middle.  

Jones: 6'5 - 18 st
Parling: 6'5 - 16.5st

Douglas: 6'7 - 19st
Horwill: 6'7 - 18 st

I could easily see us losing the scrum battle on Saturday if we select both Parling and Vunipola.  

I'd obviously prefer it to be Gray but I'd also prefer Evans ahead of Parling for Saturday.

I entirely agree GC on that second point, particularly with respect to Tall Poppy Syndrome. Drives me nuts.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I would hardly say the Aussies were "on top of us" physically last week. When Adam Jones and Alex Corbisiero left the part they had parity, but before that they were comprehensively out muscled at the scrum. Just watch that first shove again.

As we've learned with Al Kellock, size doesn't necessarily translate to scrum power. Tim Swinson channels more power through his little toe than Kellock does through his entire body. I've never felt that the Leicester or England scrum was particularly weak as a result of having Parling an integral part of the boiler room.

I think Gray should be on the bench, then when Croft gets taken off for SOB, AWJ can make way for Gray. With Parling and Croft on the pitch, the Lions need to make more of the lineout opportunities. If they simply want to chuck it to the front, then the case for playing both Parling and Croft is diminished.

Basically agree FES, but the Tigers scrum is strong because Parling has an 18 stone Kitchener next to him and a front row with the brick defecation facilities of Mulipola and Cole ahead of him. Or to put it another way, the scrum is strong despite him, not because of him. It's not a point without merit.

You very rarely see a side "choked out of the game" at international level these days, and the Lions certainly shouldn't depend on that.

With Jones and Corbisiero on the pitch there is no doubt in my opinion that we had the better scrum. Any scrum that was allowed to happen with them on the park resulted in a Lions advantage.

Without them the scrum looked pretty even, albeit that I'm still scratching my head as to why that last penalty was an Aussie penalty when they aggressively and blatantly wheeled it.

The only scrum where the Lions really blew it was the 5m scrum where they lost control of the ball. A horrible error at that stage of the game.

Again, I don't think weight necessarily translates to power. Gray, despite his size, has in the past had problems channeling power through the scrum, and Kellock scrums like a 12 stone scrum half.

Although you raise good points FES and I totally agree that Scotland and all involved need to take responsibility for their players not being involved and then not playing to standard when they are involved, I can't help but still think of the idealistic world where when people manage and play for the Lions they think only about the Lions. I heard and still hear occasionally too much chat about "Scottish players" "English players" "the Irish contingent" and especially "Wales, Wales, Wales" (I'm not including media or commentators , that's outside of the bubble and they can say what they want.)

When you put on a Lions shirt, the last test your team played was 4 years ago. You might be a debutant or an old hat, or coming back after a long layoff, but (in this case) last 3 series the series were lost - your team's backs are against the wall with criticism and poor performances in the matches that matter. You are a Lion and LIONS fixtures are the only ones you should think about now.

Do Welsh boys mention the regions as anything relevant to their international play? Of course not. Reckon the Glasgow boys assume the Edinburgh boys won't put in a good shift in their upcoming 6N fixture? I damn well hope not. Not sure why it's okay to have it translate from Intl --> Lions like it seems to.

I think that is the basis of marginalisation we're seeing. As soon as you keep seeing yourself as Welsh, English, Irish, Scottish in this team, you will naturally make biased decisions and judgements.

Of course I don't have much of a solution except to maybe hire neutral coaches next time around. Andy Robinson should be free by then right? Sean Lamont, 36, retired, plays at fly half for the lions!

Reallybored, cracking clip to post, thanks very much