Scotland V Italy - End of season redemption

George Carlin wrote:
I think that your reaction is as strong as mine because I absolutely (as a general, hypothetical behavioural trait, which I should add I do not attribute to any person posting on these boards or any Scotland player) despise beyond measure the Scottish attitude of being a victim. I have seen it in a large number of Scottish people, both at home and abroad - usually the ones that "hate England and the English" for no discernible reason other than bigotry and because the anger about feeling insignificant has to go somewhere (productive or unproductive). It's one of the things that I honestly believe is holding back a lot of improvement in a lot of people - it's so much easier to sit and complain about something than actually step-up to change your lot and do something about this.
 

patersonismyhero wrote:Although you raise good points FES and I totally agree that Scotland and all involved need to take responsibility for their players not being involved and then not playing to standard when they are involved, I can't help but still think of the idealistic world where when people manage and play for the Lions they think only about the Lions. I heard and still hear occasionally too much chat about "Scottish players" "English players" "the Irish contingent" and especially "Wales, Wales, Wales" (I'm not including media or commentators , that's outside of the bubble and they can say what they want.)

When you put on a Lions shirt, the last test your team played was 4 years ago. You might be a debutant or an old hat, or coming back after a long layoff, but (in this case) last 3 series the series were lost - your team's backs are against the wall with criticism and poor performances in the matches that matter. You are a Lion and LIONS fixtures are the only ones you should think about now.

Do Welsh boys mention the regions as anything relevant to their international play? Of course not. Reckon the Glasgow boys assume the Edinburgh boys won't put in a good shift in their upcoming 6N fixture? I damn well hope not. Not sure why it's okay to have it translate from Intl --> Lions like it seems to.

I think that is the basis of marginalisation we're seeing. As soon as you keep seeing yourself as Welsh, English, Irish, Scottish in this team, you will naturally make biased decisions and judgements.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

patersonismyhero wrote:Although you raise good points FES and I totally agree that Scotland and all involved need to take responsibility for their players not being involved and then not playing to standard when they are involved, I can't help but still think of the idealistic world where when people manage and play for the Lions they think only about the Lions. I heard and still hear occasionally too much chat about "Scottish players" "English players" "the Irish contingent" and especially "Wales, Wales, Wales" (I'm not including media or commentators , that's outside of the bubble and they can say what they want.)

When you put on a Lions shirt, the last test your team played was 4 years ago. You might be a debutant or an old hat, or coming back after a long layoff, but (in this case) last 3 series the series were lost - your team's backs are against the wall with criticism and poor performances in the matches that matter. You are a Lion and LIONS fixtures are the only ones you should think about now.

Do Welsh boys mention the regions as anything relevant to their international play? Of course not. Reckon the Glasgow boys assume the Edinburgh boys won't put in a good shift in their upcoming 6N fixture? I damn well hope not. Not sure why it's okay to have it translate from Intl --> Lions like it seems to.

I think that is the basis of marginalisation we're seeing. As soon as you keep seeing yourself as Welsh, English, Irish, Scottish in this team, you will naturally make biased decisions and judgements.

The reason is strong in you, patersonismyhero. You could be the one to bring balance to the forum.

funnyExiledScot wrote:You hiring for the campaign now asbo??

Is Bennett going to feature prominently in the White Paper?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
I think that your reaction is as strong as mine because I absolutely (as a general, hypothetical behavioural trait, which I should add I do not attribute to any person posting on these boards or any Scotland player) despise beyond measure the Scottish attitude of being a victim. I have seen it in a large number of Scottish people, both at home and abroad - usually the ones that "hate England and the English" for no discernible reason other than bigotry and because the anger about feeling insignificant has to go somewhere (productive or unproductive). It's one of the things that I honestly believe is holding back a lot of improvement in a lot of people - it's so much easier to sit and complain about something than actually step-up to change your lot and do something about this.
 

GC, pls can we hire you for the YES campaign?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I would have had Grant on the bench too, Vunipola IMO has been one of the best players on tour. His 1st 3 game marathon was incredible in itself.

What worries me more is that the Kiwi Buffoon thinks that a light weight lock is ample cover for the 2 big units in the 2nd row.

What worries me more is we are one injury away from seeing either Halfpenny, North or Bowe in the centre.

Who knows if the injury count mounts up like it did in the 2nd test in South Africa North might have to do a shift in the boiler room.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Tommy Bowe has covered 13 in the past (although the last time was probably the 3rd test in the 2009 tour) but that is a big risk relying on someone with a dodgy hand.

Saying that if you had Tuilagi on the bench you would have no back 3 cover.

123456789 wrote:The heartbreaking thing is that if they win on Saturday Gatland will be branded a legend and put equal to McGeechan in the Welsh posters eyes and Warburton equal to Calder and Johnson and perhaps in their eyes superior to O'Driscoll. Australia is by far the weakest of the old Tri-Nations and had they had half as much depth as SA or NZ the Lions would have lost on Saturday not because they have a better side if everyone was fit but because Gatland has used two matches to create a team of his own pals, namely the Six Nations decider and the Waratahs game. The two games have justified "easiy" selections and he has ignored all others, it was easier for him to pick Welsh players because then he would be popular amongst the players and fans in Wales whereas dropping Scottish players is easy because every one of our wins ever has been a "fluke" in a lot of people's opinions and McGeechan, Woodward and Henry did the same. Although it's not a surprise, this is the same man who made the second or third best Welsh openside captain and stuck with him and the same man who picked Rhys Priestland.

Scotland's a land of confusion

If anybody runs into Scott Johnson over the next few weeks, don't be surprised if he looks befuddled and bewildered.

Don't worry, it is probably not permanent, just that Scotland's interim head coach must have been poring over the tapes of the summer tour and trying to work out what to make of it all. If any videos have made their way over to France, don't expect Vern Cotter, the coach in waiting, to be any less confused.

Seldom can a Scotland tour have produced so much information and so little clarity. If there is a branch of Headscratchers Anonymous nearby, expect a flood of Scotland pundits to sweep into the meetings seeking an end to the misery of trying to make out what it all means.

The headlines are simple: played three; won one, lost two, finished third out of four. On the plus side, 10 players won their first caps and some look the real deal. On the negative, five injuries and a baby forced six players on the next flight home – at least one of those injuries, the one to Peter Horne, the Glasgow centre, is going to keep him out of action for most of next season.

The headlines don't tell the whole story, though. Was the no-show in the opening game against Samoa a case of too much rust in a side where nobody had played for a month? Untried combinations taking time to click? Or too many soft Scots getting beaten up by rough, tough bullies from the Pacific Islands?

In nailing down the answer, remember Tonga did much the same in Aberdeen last November, so the idea that Scotland are not able to handle the rough stuff cannot be dismissed out of hand. The biggest problem with that idea is that in just seven days they went from victims to aggressors when they took on the sterner challenge of South Africa.

What should Johnson take from that Springbok game? The way the side stormed into a 17-6 lead or the way they allowed the home side to score 24 unanswered points in the final half hour? And Italy – another subdued performance but the spirit, ability and confidence to steal the result at the death. Every positive has a minus and nearly every minus either a positive or, at least, an explanation.

Johnson was talking from well before the party left the UK about the real point of the exercise being to test the depth of Scottish rugby.

Well, he stuck his stick in that particular pond and found that while by and large it was pretty shallow, there were some gems like Tim Swinson waiting for his chance.

Not that it was always a fair test. The squad left home not just without the two leading hookers but also with two of the possible replacements also injured.

The net result was that when Pat MacArthur went down after less then two minutes of the opening game and Stevie Lawrie then reported to training with a bad back, Johnson was left with Scott Lawson on his own and had to call out Fraser Brown, who is talented but whose entire professional experience is 44 minutes of action for Glasgow, all off the bench.

It was a similar story at openside flanker. Johnson would have loved to pick a specialist, but with all four who ply their trade in that role for Scotland injured, he had to make do as best he could – an exercise that became even tougher when the No 7 shirt seemed to attract some sort of voodoo curse that forced both Kelly Brown and Ryan Wilson out of the tour.

That's all before we begin to think about what happened at fly-half. Tom Heathcote came through two starts but lacked the character to stamp himself on the game. A new boy, maybe he was overawed by the faces around him and anyway, he also got the two games where the pack were getting smashed. It is always hard to shine in those circumstances.

As for the rest, Ruaridh Jackson did not last until half-time in his start and was unfit for the final game. Horne picked up his knee injury after being on the field for less than 10 minutes as his replacement, so that yet again Greig Laidlaw had to shift half-back roles.

All of which was outside Johnson's control and made both selection and performances far too much of a muddle to be particularly useful in coming to any firm judgments.

There are a few verdicts that can be offered. It was Johnson who pointed out that Matt Scott is about the same size as Ma'a Nonu, and said it was time the centre started playing more like the Kiwi. He must have been pleased with the result. The power may not be there yet, but at his age Nonu was not playing like the Nonu we know today. Time is on Scott's side and there were plenty of signs that he is growing into his role with increasing assurance.

Outside him, Alex Dunbar showed plenty of promise but faces competition not just from the likes of Nick De Luca and Max Evans, both left at home, but also from the likes of Mark Bennett, who was on Under-20 duty, and the need to find some role for the rejuvenated Sean Lamont. The tour may have been all about youngsters but he made the strongest possible case for the old guard.

Up front there was Swinson and signs that David Denton is getting back to last season's form. Euan Murray was another making the case for experience and Johnnie Beattie showed huge heart in playing through his injuries. On the other hand, Grant Gilchrist was anonymous in his two outings, the scrum was thrashed by Italy until Jon Welsh got a go and the breakdown varied between kamikaze ferocity and sleepwalking.

You have to pity the coaches, who also made mistakes, not least in making so many changes for the opening match without having managed to arrange some sort of bounce game to help glue the new combinations together.

So feel free to feel sorry for those who have to make sense of it all. As mixed messages go, this tour was up there with the best. A bit like a waltz: one step forward, one back, two to the side, twirl and start again.