Lions team for first Test against Australia

by Artful_Dodger Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:23 am

First topic message reminder :

15. Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
14. Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets/Wales)
11. George North (Scarlets/Wales)
10. Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/Ireland)
9. Mike Phillips (Bayonne/Wales)
1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish/England)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers/England)
3. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
4. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
7. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues/Wales, capt)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
Replacements
16. Richard Hibbard (Ospreys/Wales)
17. Makovina Vunipola (Saracens/England)
18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers/England)
19. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers/England)
20. Dan Lydiate (Dragons/Wales)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers/England)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens/England)
23. Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors/Ireland)

by **George Carlin** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 12:40 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Did she stand you up?

Never returns my calls. And that's after I did as she said too - one hundred and one feet away at all times.

Women. Who could ever figure them out?

by maestegmafia Thu 20 Jun 2013, 12:56 pm

wales606 wrote:If Warbs does go off injured, we are screwed

But I guess the reasoning behind Lydiate is that the Aussie are likely to have 2 no7s on the pitch at 60 minutes - so Lydiate will be brought on to tighten up the rucks and work alongside Warburton on turnovers

Lydiate was very good at doing 60 minute 100% stints before subbing off for Ryan Jones a few years ago - it will be interesting to see the intensity he plays at if only on for 20 minutes.

He was awesome against Brumbies and Tah's when he came on. Intensity rose immeasurably... My biggest worry is with our Halfbacks going off. Youngs had an awful game on Tuesday and Murray definitely looked the better option. Enough has been said about why Farrell should not even be touring.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:02 pm

Sexton was always going to be crucial for the Lions and I'm just pleased that he's fit enough to start. I don't worry about Youngs coming on at all, but Farrell doesn't have the distribution skills to really trouble the Aussie defence, whereas Sexton will certainly cause them some problems.

I quite like the team. I was slightly surprised by Youngs starting ahead of Hibbard, but otherwise I think it's pretty much as expected, and based largely on form shown on the tour. Gatland has provided his justification for Corbisiero ahead of Vunipola, who is probably the only player whose form would have had him nailed on to start and yet isn't starting.

I thought Stuart Barnes' piece in the Sunday Times was pretty good last weekend - pointing out some of the Lions weaknesses around the wider channels when the ball is spun fast and wide. Seems to me that Deans agrees, which is why Barnes is in at 15 to come in and distribute from more depth to beat the Lions rush defence. If the Aussies get it right then I think the Lions will struggle, but if Rowntree gets his pack firing then the Lions could dominate the ball, and have some great strikes runners in attack, Croft and the Welsh wings in particular.

by nobbled Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:05 pm

Cuthbert hasn't been himself so far. He can be and usually is a class act, but hasn't hit form yet for me.

by RubyGuby Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:07 pm

No one has yet mentioned the key words - Discipline and Composure when under pressure thumbsup

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:08 pm

You mean TCUP Ruby?

Sir Clive's revolutionary concept.....

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:09 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
Griff wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:Not a bad team, though I really question what impact Lydiate could have from the bench. He hasn't got that attacking xfactor, which O'Brien does. I'd definitely have O'Brien over him on the bench, covering across the backrow. Backs look good, though Maitland must improve his defence if he comes off the bench. Same for Cuthbert.

I really think that Hooper could have his way at the breakdown. He's quicker than Warbs and gets more stuck in that Croft. If the Lions don't counter-ruck quickly and effectively, they could se themselves losing a lot of ball. Possibly this justifies the inclusion of Youngs at hooker over Hibbard? Though both are aggressive ruckers and good at the breakdown, Youngs is a little quicker.

I think maybe that's why Lydiate is on the bench - if the breakdown is struggling, specially if Croft is out in the wide channels/on the wing 'goal hanging', then Lydiate will help out in that regard. His work and strengths are all tackling and ruck based so they may get him on if we're getting killed at the breakdown.

Lydiate is the better tackler, but I would prefer SOB on the bench to bring on and counter Hooper if we are getting our a$$e$ handed to us.

I guess Heaslip is a quick 8, so will be hopefully hitting most breakdowns.

The worry is that the Aussie backrower to come off will be Palu - he's 120kg and 30. That means we have to deal with Hooper, Gill and Mowen at the breakdown. But it will reduce the Aussie packs carrying a lot

by valtrepkos Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:10 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
wales606 wrote:If Warbs does go off injured, we are screwed

But I guess the reasoning behind Lydiate is that the Aussie are likely to have 2 no7s on the pitch at 60 minutes - so Lydiate will be brought on to tighten up the rucks and work alongside Warburton on turnovers

Lydiate was very good at doing 60 minute 100% stints before subbing off for Ryan Jones a few years ago - it will be interesting to see the intensity he plays at if only on for 20 minutes.

He was awesome against Brumbies and Tah's when he came on. Intensity rose immeasurably... My biggest worry is with our Halfbacks going off. Youngs had an awful game on Tuesday and Murray definitely looked the better option. Enough has been said about why Farrell should not even be touring.

He was ok but certainly not awesome - I actually think faletau would've been a better choice and he's pretty unlucky. I don't think Murray is even close to being a better option than youngs

by **George Carlin** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:12 pm

I don't know any of my Aussie mates who are confident of a victory, interestingly, and they're not just being coy. I don't how anyone can claim to accurately predict the outcome of this.

The Wallabies haven't played together since they edged Wales by 2 points in December. That's fully six months apart and say what you like about the quality of the individuals involved, the Wallabies are using a new back three, a new centre combination, a new lock combination and have a 10 who has had a mixed season so far with his franchise.

One thing that does give me comfort are the number of leaders around the park in BOD, POC, Heaslip and Jones. We won't be lacking in experience. Brainfarts are inevitable in the pressure of a test but I hope that we have a team that will keep the error count down.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:12 pm

Maitland being listed for Ireland was actually an error in the original Lions press release

by wales606 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:12 pm

nobbled wrote:Cuthbert hasn't been himself so far. He can be and usually is a class act, but hasn't hit form yet for me.

I'm not too worried about Cuthbert to be honest

His defence has been questioned before, but he always steps it up and proves people wrong in his next game

The back 3 will have a good understanding, and that will help a lot.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:14 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
My biggest worry is with our Halfbacks going off. Youngs had an awful game on Tuesday and Murray definitely looked the better option.

Whilst I woudl disagree, that is a matter of opinion by both of us. Even if Murray did look better, probably had something to do with the replacements in the pack doing so much better.

maestegmafia wrote:Enough has been said about why Farrell should not even be touring.

Mainly by you. In fact you have even accused Gatland and Howley of selecting him to keep Papa happy. He was a vast improvement on Hogg when he came on against Brumbies. (Note Hogg is a cracking player, but not a 10)

Time for us to get behind the team, and avoid nationalistic rants.

by belovedfrosties Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:17 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
wales606 wrote:If Warbs does go off injured, we are screwed

But I guess the reasoning behind Lydiate is that the Aussie are likely to have 2 no7s on the pitch at 60 minutes - so Lydiate will be brought on to tighten up the rucks and work alongside Warburton on turnovers

Lydiate was very good at doing 60 minute 100% stints before subbing off for Ryan Jones a few years ago - it will be interesting to see the intensity he plays at if only on for 20 minutes.

He was awesome against Brumbies and Tah's when he came on. Intensity rose immeasurably... My biggest worry is with our Halfbacks going off. Youngs had an awful game on Tuesday and Murray definitely looked the better option. Enough has been said about why Farrell should not even be touring.

Murray came on once all the big guns had been on the pitch and actually had a platform to work off. I think had the roles been reversed Murray would have looked even worse than Youngs did and Youngs would have looked brilliant had he come on when Murray had.

Not even going to bother with your comments on Farrell, do you still think that Hogg is a better option than him?

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:20 pm

Agreed GC - whilst the Lions have a few problems with injuries etc., the Aussie XV is not as fearsome as it once was, and the poster above makes a good point about Palu. Take him out and who is going to get the Aussies over the advantage line against that Lions defence? If the tempo drops I think we'll see the Aussies kick an awful lot of ball and try to gain territory that way - hope the Lions counter-attack and turn them over. Moore and Palu aside, there isn't a huge amount of power in that Aussie pack to trouble the Lions. Horwell is a passionate player, but I think AWJ and POC will have him well covered.

by **George Carlin** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:22 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Maitland being listed for Ireland was actually an error in the original Lions press release

Not good, but at least a few degrees removed from the previous offerings of a PR team that sanctioned an impaled Springbok testicle as an official Lions image.

by tecphobe Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:32 pm

To be fair the team is much as could of been anticipated Corbissero starting is perhaps the only real risk by Gatland. Rory best didn't really hold his hand up as Hooker. Personally I'm a little unsure of Lydiate as a bench option. I would of thought you either start with as started Lydiate with croft of the bench Maitland is obviously on the bench as a token Scottish player he has offered nothing that I've seen so far Zebo can consider himself a Tad unfortunate. Cuthbert is obviously selected on his welsh rather than lions form

by BlueNote Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:38 pm

Am concerned over the centre pairing not having played together (but that is just what circumstances have dictated), a little concerned over T Youngs' size (but he has done enough to justify selection).

Not sure about the balance of the back row, and don't understand why SOB isn't at least on the bench.

But it's a pretty good team, on the whole. Very hard to predict how this one is going to go. I just have a feeling the Aussies are going to outsmart us.

by maestegmafia Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:41 pm

tecphobe wrote:Cuthbert is obviously selected on his welsh rather than lions form

Yes he has only scored 3 tries for the Lions but has scored 8 for Wales.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:43 pm

Maitland covers 15 if needed, has toured from the outset and whilst he missed a tackle in the last game, he has shown some decent touches through the tour. I don't think Gatland gives a monkeys about tokenism personally. He'll have picked Maitland based on merit, whether you agree with the judgement or not.

by wales606 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:45 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
tecphobe wrote:Cuthbert is obviously selected on his welsh rather than lions form

Yes he has only scored 3 tries for the Lions but has scored 8 for Wales.

Record try scorer in the 6Ns - nobody else is holding their hands up, so Cuthbert is the obvious option until Bowe proves his fitness.

Don't understand Maitland on the bench though, Zebo would be far more of an impact player.

by **RDW** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:47 pm

IF this team wins do people think he will bring back Roberts and Bowe next week?

by GunsGerms Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:49 pm

wales606 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
tecphobe wrote:Cuthbert is obviously selected on his welsh rather than lions form

Yes he has only scored 3 tries for the Lions but has scored 8 for Wales.

Record try scorer in the 6Ns - nobody else is holding their hands up, so Cuthbert is the obvious option until Bowe proves his fitness.

Don't understand Maitland on the bench though, Zebo would be far more of an impact player.

Cuthbert is a good player but his form has not been good.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:50 pm

See my explanation above re: Maitland. If Halfpenny gets injured I don't think a Zebo, Cuthbert and North back three will withstand the scrutiny of the Aussie kicking game from Genia, JOC and Barnes.

Maitland is more comfortable and experienced at 15, so I think it's more about cover than impact for Gatland. I agree though, were it solely for impact, then Zebo could bring more.

by **George Carlin** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:51 pm

There is absolutely no history of tokenism whatsoever in Lions rugby selection.

Hilarious suggestion that with everything at stake a coach as well established at Gatland would give the slightest sneeze of a cr@p about pandering to all four nations. It didn't stop him choosing only three Scots in the initial party.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:52 pm

RDW - I do. I think if Roberts is fit for next week he'll play, barring an utterly storming combination from BOD and Davies. Harder to guess with Bowe.

by tatterd Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:52 pm

everyone, and I mean EVREYONE (except maybe one person) on here has been bemoaning Lydiate's inclusion on the bench. If he comes on and has a stormer let's hope you're all readily available to admit you were wrong and swallow some humble pie

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:55 pm

tatterd wrote:everyone, and I mean EVREYONE (except maybe one person) on here has been bemoaning Lydiate's inclusion on the bench. If he comes on and has a stormer let's hope you're all readily available to admit you were wrong and swallow some humble pie

I haven't mentioned it, think it'll be great if we are leading, less so if we are not but it's hard to plan a bench for both scenarios

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:57 pm

I'm not bemoaning Lydiate's inclusion on the bench.

I'd thought previously that SOB was the ideal bench replacement, given his versatility across the back row, but I was extremely disappointed with his performance on Tuesday, and similarly Tipuric. I think they played themselves out of contention for the bench that night personally. They'll both have another shot against the Rebels to get into contention for the 2nd and 3rd Tests, as will Falatau.

My only quibble with Lydiate is that he's a tree cutter - one of the best in the game. Thing is Australia don't really have any trees, Palu aside. They will obviously have to carry some ball and take some hits, but with the XV selected it looks more to me that Australia will seek to evade the contact area by passing wide and kicking over the top, rather than go looking for it. It's why I think Croft is the right call at 6, with his rangy pace getting him around the park. Only a slight quibble though, Lydiate is certainly an excellent option to have if the Lions want to get the game generally tight and close it off.

by tecphobe Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:58 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:See my explanation above re: Maitland. If Halfpenny gets injured I don't think a Zebo, Cuthbert and North back three will withstand the scrutiny of the Aussie kicking game from Genia, JOC and Barnes.

Maitland is more comfortable and experienced at 15, so I think it's more about cover than impact for Gatland. I agree though, were it solely for impact, then Zebo could bring more. Zebo has played International Rugby at 15 for Ireland has Maitland played 15 for scotland? Cuthbert has scored trys for the lions however you have to look at the opposition scored against. Im happy with team picked its not a surprise team i thing most peoplle would agreed with at least 18 of the selections that cant be two bad.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:03 pm

tatterd wrote:everyone, and I mean EVREYONE (except maybe one person) on here has been bemoaning Lydiate's inclusion on the bench. If he comes on and has a stormer let's hope you're all readily available to admit you were wrong and swallow some humble pie

And...................................... ???

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:03 pm

I didn't realise that Zebo had played 15 for Ireland, but I'm pretty sure Maitland has played 15 in Super Rugby and perhaps more relevantly for the Lions recently.

Still, I have only seen Zebo play on the wing so didn't realise he could also play 15. Clearly Gatland just prefers Maitland in which case. I still don't think tokenism has anything to do with it.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:09 pm

I am among one of Lydiates biggest fans and if he had been fully fit with a full season of rugby behind him then he would have been the first name of my teamsheet but that said I am a little puzzled by him being on the bench.

For me the better bench option would have been SOB

by tecphobe Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:14 pm

"I didn't realise that Zebo had played 15 for Ireland, but I'm pretty sure Maitland has played 15 in Super Rugby and perhaps more relevantly for the Lions recently.Still, I have only seen Zebo play on the wing so didn't realise he could also play 15. Clearly Gatland just prefers Maitland in which case. I still don't think tokenism has anything to do with it."

It was in the Autumn against Argentina and South Africa my point is that in a 50/50 call it may be a factor. I'm pretty happy overall with the selection. A slight lack of impact on the bench concerns me.

by The Great Aukster Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:24 pm

Surprised with Youngs starting at Hooker. He won't get away with throwing to the front all the time as he did against the Tahs.

Maitland in the 23 is also a big surprise. He has been on the wrong side of mediocre for most of the tour, and I'm wondering what he offers?
Given the possible fragility of the wings, surely Zebo would have been a far better impact player? OTOH if Maitland is there primarily as full back cover then Hogg would have been a far more sensible choice, as he can cover wing and has a far better boot (and more kicking practice). Kearney would also have offered more experience off the bench if it was all going pear-shaped. Gatland must have a cunning plan that totally escapes me.

by captain carrantuohil Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:48 pm

Broadly speaking, this is as good a job as Gatland and co could have done, given the fit material available. A few judgement calls have given rise to some queries, but I don't see anyone disagreeing excessively with the nucleus of the selection.

If Bowe is fit for the second Test, suspect he'll be in under almost any circumstances. Roberts/Tuilagi's fate will depend on what happens to the JD/BOD combo, which I happen to think will go very well. I read this morning (and you never know quite what to believe) that while Tuilagi will have recovered enough to be in contention for selection next week, it's still a bit touch and go for Jamie. Based on that, Farrell and Maitland seems sound bench options, although I sympathise with both Hogg and Gray for so narrowly missing out on the 23.

As someone mentioned earlier, Tipuric was either going to start at 7 or miss out. I'd have had O'Brien rather than Lydiate on the bench, but I understand the thinking behind it. Presumably if the unthinkable happens and Warbs can't play 80, Croft will shift across to play 7. Not ideal, but there we go.

I'm quite optimistic, in any case. A great occasion in prospect and I shall be reminded of listening on the radio to Lions Tests in NZ when I was very young and the beginning of a love of Lions tours which has stayed with me to the the present day.

by Breadvan Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:55 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
wales606 wrote:If Warbs does go off injured, we are screwed

But I guess the reasoning behind Lydiate is that the Aussie are likely to have 2 no7s on the pitch at 60 minutes - so Lydiate will be brought on to tighten up the rucks and work alongside Warburton on turnovers

Lydiate was very good at doing 60 minute 100% stints before subbing off for Ryan Jones a few years ago - it will be interesting to see the intensity he plays at if only on for 20 minutes.

He was awesome against Brumbies and Tah's when he came on. Intensity rose immeasurably... My biggest worry is with our Halfbacks going off. Youngs had an awful game on Tuesday and Murray definitely looked the better option. Enough has been said about why Farrell should not even be touring.

My god I hope he comes on win and test and you choke on humble pie.

by **George Carlin** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 2:58 pm

To be honest, I was most surprised by the ommission of Gavin Henson.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:07 pm

Too big a brand for the Lions to handle GC.

by bluestonevedder Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:17 pm

Same for Haskell.

by bluestonevedder Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:18 pm

Oddly, I actually met Brand Hask at Bodypower this year.

He was there shamelessly promoting himself and his pre-workout coffee brand.

by BlueNote Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:22 pm

Even if Lydiate does come on and play well, it doesn't invalidate the argument that SOB would have been a better bench option, not necessarily because he is a better player than Lydiate, but because of the range of positions he covers. Who is going to play 7 or 8 if Warbs or Heaslip goes off?

by nathan Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:22 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Surprised with Youngs starting at Hooker. He won't get away with throwing to the front all the time as he did against the Tahs.

Maitland in the 23 is also a big surprise. He has been on the wrong side of mediocre for most of the tour, and I'm wondering what he offers?
Given the possible fragility of the wings, surely Zebo would have been a far better impact player? OTOH if Maitland is there primarily as full back cover then Hogg would have been a far more sensible choice, as he can cover wing and has a far better boot (and more kicking practice). Kearney would also have offered more experience off the bench if it was all going pear-shaped. Gatland must have a cunning plan that totally escapes me.

Please don't ever listen to Barnes, he did throw to the back...

by Cadair Idris Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:31 pm

If certain players had performed better vs the Brumbies then the starting XV would have been much tougher to pick but in the end it basically picked itself given the injuries we have and the likes of Hibbard, Tipuric, Gray and SOB not really putting their hands up.

The bench is the contentious area. It's a great shame that Hogg has been messed around at 10 as ideally he would have had more opportunities at both 15 and 14 and would then in my view would have been a better bench option than Maitland. With hindsight I'd say Hook should have gone, not as a test match option but as the versatile utility back (10, 12, and 15) for the midweek games which has clearly been needed.

Surprised by Lydiate initially but as others have said he would be the ideal 6 to close the game out IF we have the lead on 60 mins. That's fine if we don't have injuries and have the lead but if any of our back row go off injured in the 1st half, SOB would be a much better option as he covers the whole back row. So really depends on the circumstances of the substitution which is the element of risk for any coach.

by dragonbreath Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:37 pm

I really have trouble understanding how Gatlands mind works

The bench is really strange

I am a big fan of Lydiate, but you either pick him to start or you do not pick him at all. There is no cover for 7 and 8, a car crash waiting to happen

Youngs rather than Murray???. Youngs was beyond terrible on Tuesday and he made Hogg look poor at the same time. His pass was in no particular order, but with alarming frequency, high, low, behind, his intended target. At one point I had to check to make sure he wasn't blindfolded. Murray came on and the link between backs and forwards was improved beyond recognition. Murray must be very disappointed and has a right to be. Anyone criticising Phillips' pass after that performance from Youngs just needs to sit down

Maitland over Kearney and Hogg? really?, that is a disgrace, Maitland is NOT OF TOUR PARTY STANDARD LET ALONE MATCH DAY SQUAD

As for the team itself, the only bone of contention given injuries is T Youngs over Hibbard. I must have missed something because I thought that the idea was that we would attempt to overpower Aus at scrum time. Youngs is a complete lightweight and the main reason Cole has struggled this season in an England shirt is that he has a fat centre in the front row alongside him.

Gats has made some sadly typical Frak decisions yet again. Forget the injuries Gats could yet become the biggest problem this tour faces

by kingjohn7 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:44 pm

tatterd wrote:everyone, and I mean EVREYONE (except maybe one person) on here has been bemoaning Lydiate's inclusion on the bench. If he comes on and has a stormer let's hope you're all readily available to admit you were wrong and swallow some humble pie

Im not questioning his ability and would be more than happy if he was to start(would be my starter). As a bench option I just dont see it though. 2 most likely scenarios at 60 min mark, 1: We are losing and have to chase the game- out of the 3 non test flankers he is least effective 2: A backrower is injured/is knackered- he can only come on at blindside but it is Warbs who is most likely to go off.
I imagine he will have a stormer because he usually does, but I dont think that means he is right option.

by bluestonevedder Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:57 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:

tatterd wrote:everyone, and I mean EVREYONE (except maybe one person) on here has been bemoaning Lydiate's inclusion on the bench. If he comes on and has a stormer let's hope you're all readily available to admit you were wrong and swallow some humble pie

Im not questioning his ability and would be more than happy if he was to start(would be my starter). As a bench option I just dont see it though. 2 most likely scenarios at 60 min mark, 1: We are losing and have to chase the game- out of the 3 non test flankers he is least effective 2: A backrower is injured/is knackered- he can only come on at blindside but it is Warbs who is most likely to go off.
I imagine he will have a stormer because he usually does, but I dont think that means he is right option.

Hold on, hold on. Just trying to get my head round that Shocked

by nathan Thu 20 Jun 2013, 3:58 pm

dragonbreath wrote:I really have trouble understanding how Gatlands mind works

The bench is really strange

I am a big fan of Lydiate, but you either pick him to start or you do not pick him at all. There is no cover for 7 and 8, a car crash waiting to happen

Youngs rather than Murray???. Youngs was beyond terrible on Tuesday and he made Hogg look poor at the same time. His pass was in no particular order, but with alarming frequency, high, low, behind, his intended target. At one point I had to check to make sure he wasn't blindfolded. Murray came on and the link between backs and forwards was improved beyond recognition. Murray must be very disappointed and has a right to be. Anyone criticising Phillips' pass after that performance from Youngs just needs to sit down

Maitland over Kearney and Hogg? really?, that is a disgrace, Maitland is NOT OF TOUR PARTY STANDARD LET ALONE MATCH DAY SQUAD

As for the team itself, the only bone of contention given injuries is T Youngs over Hibbard. I must have missed something because I thought that the idea was that we would attempt to overpower Aus at scrum time. Youngs is a complete lightweight and the main reason Cole has struggled this season in an England shirt is that he has a fat centre in the front row alongside him.

Gats has made some sadly typical Frak decisions yet again. Forget the injuries Gats could yet become the biggest problem this tour faces

what a bunch of Muppet comments...

by bluestonevedder Thu 20 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

nathan wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:I really have trouble understanding how Gatlands mind works

The bench is really strange

I am a big fan of Lydiate, but you either pick him to start or you do not pick him at all. There is no cover for 7 and 8, a car crash waiting to happen

Youngs rather than Murray???. Youngs was beyond terrible on Tuesday and he made Hogg look poor at the same time. His pass was in no particular order, but with alarming frequency, high, low, behind, his intended target. At one point I had to check to make sure he wasn't blindfolded. Murray came on and the link between backs and forwards was improved beyond recognition. Murray must be very disappointed and has a right to be. Anyone criticising Phillips' pass after that performance from Youngs just needs to sit down

Maitland over Kearney and Hogg? really?, that is a disgrace, Maitland is NOT OF TOUR PARTY STANDARD LET ALONE MATCH DAY SQUAD

As for the team itself, the only bone of contention given injuries is T Youngs over Hibbard. I must have missed something because I thought that the idea was that we would attempt to overpower Aus at scrum time. Youngs is a complete lightweight and the main reason Cole has struggled this season in an England shirt is that he has a fat centre in the front row alongside him.

Gats has made some sadly typical Frak decisions yet again. Forget the injuries Gats could yet become the biggest problem this tour faces

what a bunch of Muppet comments...

The comments about Tom Youngs are unfair. People assume he is a weak scrummager because of his height. At Leicester he is recognised for his scrummaging power, but on the international stage opposition props are stronger and Cole does struggle more. Against Wales this year he was shown up, but considering their front row is nothing to be embarrassed by. They are some of the best in the business. This doesn't mean Youngs was the problem.

Also, people don't complain about Rory Best being lightweight in the scrum, though he is only marginally taller and heavier than Youngs. Wikipedia states the is an 8kg difference, though I often think Best's stats are exhaggerated.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 20 Jun 2013, 4:06 pm

nathan wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:I really have trouble understanding how Gatlands mind works

The bench is really strange

I am a big fan of Lydiate, but you either pick him to start or you do not pick him at all. There is no cover for 7 and 8, a car crash waiting to happen

Youngs rather than Murray???. Youngs was beyond terrible on Tuesday and he made Hogg look poor at the same time. His pass was in no particular order, but with alarming frequency, high, low, behind, his intended target. At one point I had to check to make sure he wasn't blindfolded. Murray came on and the link between backs and forwards was improved beyond recognition. Murray must be very disappointed and has a right to be. Anyone criticising Phillips' pass after that performance from Youngs just needs to sit down

Maitland over Kearney and Hogg? really?, that is a disgrace, Maitland is NOT OF TOUR PARTY STANDARD LET ALONE MATCH DAY SQUAD

As for the team itself, the only bone of contention given injuries is T Youngs over Hibbard. I must have missed something because I thought that the idea was that we would attempt to overpower Aus at scrum time. Youngs is a complete lightweight and the main reason Cole has struggled this season in an England shirt is that he has a fat centre in the front row alongside him.

Gats has made some sadly typical Frak decisions yet again. Forget the injuries Gats could yet become the biggest problem this tour faces

what a bunch of Muppet comments...

Really? I agree with the Lydiate comments, disagree with the Murray/Youngs call (Murray is a quite poor man's Phillips, while Youngs(B) was hamstrung by his pack on Tuesday) and agree Maitland's a little lucky to be on the bench (though I'd have selected him in the tour party). I don't have a problem with Youngs(T) starting, there's not much between him & Hibbard overall - you don't need a big scrum against the Aussies,just an adequate one, they're pretty good at getting away with an under-pressure scrum most of the time anyway.

How about addressing the points rather than firing off a whinge salvo.

by captain carrantuohil Thu 20 Jun 2013, 4:12 pm

Feel that between them, Gatland and Rowntree have a more than adequate understanding of what will be required come scrum time. It's not as though we're short in that department on the bench either, and all three of the front-row replacements will likely see at least 20-25 minutes of action anyway, unless we're making absolute mincemeat of the Wallabies up front.

Have to say that I like our tight five - in the enforced absence of Healy and Jenkins, I really don't see any geat cause for complaint there.

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