Warburton is out of the final test...

British and Irish Lions captain Sam Warburton is out of the deciding Test against Australia in Sydney on Saturday with a hamstring injury.

This could be a blessing in disguise. I feel Warburton went missing after 20 minutes in both tests, so it gives Gatland a great "out" to rebalance his beaten back row.

Oh GE, please give it a rest chief as that's one of your daftest attempts at a wind up ever. Warburton was excellent on Saturday and if not fit for next week will be missed.

Big big blow, time for Tipuric to have a huge game

wales606 wrote:Big big blow, time for Tipuric to have a huge game

Huge blow, as Ozzy said he was a huge part of all that was good for us....!

Tipuric is by no means a shabby replacement, neither is Sean O'Brien...! Very sad that Warburton is injured he has been excellent on tour.

wales606 wrote:Big big blow, time for Tipuric to have a huge game

Yes it is a blow. Cannot see tipuric making anything better than the bench though. SOB almost certain to be the starting 7.

Sam has been outstanding and will be missed.Looks like both sides will have a new captain if justice prevails.
SoB on bench,Tips,Toby and Croft to start,I reckon.

LondonTiger wrote:

wales606 wrote:Big big blow, time for Tipuric to have a huge game

Yes it is a blow. Cannot see tipuric making anything better than the bench though. SOB almost certain to be the starting 7.

We need a traditional 7 against the speed and expertise of Hooper and Gill (not to mention Smith)

Tipuric has to start for me, with Lydiate at 6, Faletau at 8 and SOB at 20

A real shame for the captain not to be able to finish the tour, feel for the lad - which way to go? Tipuric or SOB?

Does this mean BOD is a cert to start and finish the match? Not many other candidates for captain...

Stuart Barnes is happy

sad news for warburton he played excellent on Saturday . bod be captain i should imagine or would he be replaced by Roberts if fit . prob replace jd

Big big blow, but let's hope it will force Gatland to pick a feckin 2nd row on the bench now!!

samuraidragon wrote:Does  this mean  BOD is a cert to start and finish the match? Not many other candidates for captain...

AWJ?

wales606 wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Does  this mean  BOD is a cert to start and finish the match? Not many other candidates for captain...

AWJ?

Frankly, I would have gone for a Davies / Roberts / Tuilagi combo for the 23.

samuraidragon wrote:

wales606 wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Does  this mean  BOD is a cert to start and finish the match? Not many other candidates for captain...

AWJ?

Frankly, I would have gone for a Davies / Roberts / Tuilagi combo for the 23.

I would have done the same. BOD hasn't been up to much lately and I think Tuilagi Davies with Roberts on the bench would be pretty tasty. I would start Roberts but to come straight back in after a lay off like that. Also Tuilagi has been pretty good so far.

Warburton was our MOM on Sat so a great loss. The bal;ance of the backrow is key here and I want an abrasive and powerful fron 5.

7 - Tipuruc
8 - Faetau
6 - SOB/Lydiate or Croft

If we have AWJ alongside Grey/Evans we don't need Croft

1 - Corbisiero
2 - Hibbard
3 - Jones/Cole

We need that platform we had in the first half of the first test

Youngs played in the first half of the first test.

mckay1402 wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:

wales606 wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Does  this mean  BOD is a cert to start and finish the match? Not many other candidates for captain...

AWJ?

Frankly, I would have gone for a Davies / Roberts / Tuilagi combo for the 23.

I would have done the same.  BOD hasn't been up to much lately and I think Tuilagi Davies with Roberts on the bench would be pretty tasty.  I would start Roberts but to come straight back in after a lay off like that.  Also Tuilagi has been pretty good so far.  

+1

Watched the game again yesterday and that convinced me if fit a Roberts/Davies combo is the way to go with Tuilagi or BOD on the bench.

Back on topic, one thing was apparent that the Aussies won a surprising amount of turnover especially in the second half. If we play generally passive tacklers like Faletau, Tipuric, and Croft then I believe we will lose even more. Ball retention and turnovers will win the decider not headline runners.

8 Faletau
7 SOB
6 Lydiate (if recovered as he was dead on his feet after 65 mins)

Bench: Tipuric

We need more "Grunt" from the start in the second row, particularly if we play Toby and Justin in the back-row whose skills are in open-play rather than in the tight . Retain AWJ and make him captain.

4 AWJ
5 Gray

Bench: Parling

ps. losing Warburton is a massive blow, you can see he was nearing 100% fitness and was brilliant on Saturday.

 I am aware of that

Irrespective of who plays in the 3rd test, the only way we will win is if our mindset is different.

We went out on Saturday not to lose. To ensure that Australia scored fewer than we did. This week we have to go out with the intention to score more than they do. I know those two things essentially amount to the same at the very end, but they are very different mindests to go out with. If we just try to contain them again, we will lose again. For whatever deficiencies this Aus side has, if you give them 65% of the possession, they will beat you. Probably the only side that would beat them off 35% possession is the AB's.

 You are right Ozzy we need to go out there with a confident smile and we need to take it to them, we have the personnell to do that - Key player in this for me is actually Corbisiero

Time to roll the dice

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Jones
4. AWJ (c)
5. Gray
6. Faletau
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD2
14. Bowe
15. 1/2P

16. Hibbard
17. Cole
18. Mako
19. Croft
20. Tips
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. Tuilagi

We need ball carriers,men who won't be knocked backwards and then impact off the bench! Don't want us to go out with a whimper, let's have a go, keep the ball in hand,get round the corner and force the Aussies to stop us. I hate the high ball kick chase tactic,so boring and negative and it didn't pay off on Saturday!

Corbs is a guy that can have a massive impact on whether or not we get a platform Ruby, so on that basis you are right, he is key.

I just think we have to take the game to them, and that means smashing them in attack and defence. We do not have a playmaking 12 in the squad, so I would just load us up through the team. Massive pack and Roberts and Tuilagi in the centre.

We need to be more dynamic rather than overy structured as we are just predictable - Smash the holes and then let the big boys run into the gaps - recycle and go again - Rugby is a simple game.

Shame for Warbs to miss out, good that we have a like for like replacement with Tips. However wouldn't it have been nice to have Robshaw out there on the tour, would solve the problem of having to have an off colour B'OD out there to captain the team and you could put CR at 6.

Reckon it's too late for a call up for him though.

Not a snowball's chance in Hell of BOD not playing and captaining the side.

But I agree with Ulster12

U12 wrote:Time to roll the dice

BOD will get the call - and he'll see his destiny unrolling before him.

But he'd have to show a reason why he earned his place - unlike any other occasion on this tour. It not enough just to tackle and pass at this level in a strike position.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Irrespective of who plays in the 3rd test, the only way we will win is if our mindset is different.

We went out on Saturday not to lose.  To ensure that Australia scored fewer than we did.  This week we have to go out with the intention to score more than they do.  I know those two things essentially amount to the same at the very end, but they are very different mindests to go out with.  If we just try to contain them again, we will lose again.  For whatever deficiencies this Aus side has, if you give them 65% of the possession, they will beat you.  Probably the only side that would beat them off 35% possession is the AB's.

 +1

And even then the ABs would be nervous.


I only got to see the 1st half on Saturday due to my own sporting commitments (mutter mutter), but the only reason the Lions led at the break was the Australian propensity for knocking the ball on (handling was iffy on both sides, no idea why) - and had the Aussies had LLF on the field to (a) kick goals last week and (b) prevent Hooper from defending at 12 for North's try) they'd have won then too. Possession is gold against Australia, kicking the pill back to them is suicide.

Agree with you Portnoy. Think BOD will play but we really need more cutting edge,he tackles like a machine and is a nuisance over the ball but as was shown on Saturday with defensive tactics eventually the dam will break (AAC scoring in the corner) then we had no game breakers to chase that elusive line break!

Ulster12 wrote:Time to roll the dice

Pretty conservative dice roll there! How about:

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. AWJ
6. Croft
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Halfpenny

That's a proper gamble.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Corbs is a guy that can have a massive impact on whether or not we get a platform Ruby, so on that basis you are right, he is key.

I just think we have to take the game to them, and that means smashing them in attack and defence.  We do not have a playmaking 12 in the squad, so I would just load us up through the team.  Massive pack and Roberts and Tuilagi in the centre.

So you have been consistent in your comments all week and more-so since the result i.e. We will not win by containment and basically we will not win by bish bosh, and yet you select the most unimaginative centre pairing combo of the four players. Its a bit naïve to suggest that in BOD or Foxy we don't have a playmaking centre as only a few games ago we had the rugby world purring over Davies' performance and the likes of Roberts BOD stating "man how good was he" and SCW stating "that was best centre performance since Will Greenwood".

It was clear that after the 55 min some players were out on their feet and in that period we lost some many turnovers, that was because stubborn Gatlandball lite "contained" throughout the team. We only have to change tactics slightly and bring "the horses for courses".

If fit Corbs in, Hibbard in, Gray in, SOB in, Roberts in. Bench Grant, Parling, Tips, Manu (or BOD)

RubyGuby wrote:Warburton was our MOM on Sat so a great loss. The bal;ance of the backrow is key here and I want an abrasive and powerful fron 5.

7 - Tipuruc
8 - Faetau
6 - SOB/Lydiate or Croft

If we have AWJ alongside Grey/Evans we don't need Croft

1 - Corbisiero
2 - Hibbard
3 - Jones/Cole

We need that platform we had in the first half of the first test

We need the platform from the first half of the first test, but you don't pick Youngs or Croft?

Sad news for Warbs but I hope Tips gets a go.

Also I'm haven't seen anything from Sexton that says to me he justifies his selection maybe a B.Youngs/Farrell combo will serve the Lions better?

Davies is a most effective at 13 for me FHF, and there is an argument for playing him there outside of either Roberts or Tuilagi at 12. Gatland's prefered gameplan relies on the 12 punching holes in midfield, and for all of Davies bulk and skill, he doesn't do that there.

Whilst you may look at Roberts and Tuilagi and say it is unimaginative (it wouldn't have been my pick pre tour incidentally) I do believe that it is the best of what we have to get the job done the Gatland way.

I dont quite get the obsession with getting Roberts back in there tbh given his current form and lack of game time. if you want a center to tackle everything that moves but who runs into contact and spills the ball forward you have got Barrett.  

As for the scrums- it is of course possible to power up the scrum but do you end up messing up the lineout? I'd feel a lot happier about Hibberd playing if his throwing in was up to scratch.

To be fair lostinwales, there isn't a great deal of lineout there to mess up. Also, if you play to control possession then you lower the amount of lineouts that you are throwing in at.

If Corbisiero is back then I don't think there's an issue with Youngs in the scrum. People who know more about these things than me reckon that Vunipola and Youngs' relative sizes are a problem, but the scrum went well with the first choice front row 9 days ago.

Wind back 6 months and the idea that Youngs would be Lions first choice because of his accurate throwing would sound pretty ridiculous.

Hibberd needs a hair cut, I can't remember the exact time but at one point in the game he flicks his hair back just before he committed to a ruck, his a rugby player not auditioning for a head and shoulders advert!

Ozzy3213 wrote:Davies is a most effective at 13 for me FHF, and there is an argument for playing him there outside of either Roberts or Tuilagi at 12.  Gatland's prefered gameplan relies on the 12 punching holes in midfield, and for all of Davies bulk and skill, he doesn't do that there.  

Whilst you may look at Roberts and Tuilagi and say it is unimaginative (it wouldn't have been my pick pre tour incidentally) I do believe that it is the best of what we have to get the job done the Gatland way.

But surely Davies didn't even attempt to do that once on Saturday, he didn't break the offensive line (or to be honest the defensive line) once. That's not his natural game, he likes to attack the line. It was clear Gatland stubbornly restrained both centres shackling them to such an extent that both were afraid to take a risk....... (like he stubbornly refused to bring on Farrell for the ineffective Sexton, and not bringing on Grant).

If you look at Davies time at 12 for the Scarlets he was very effective with an aware 13 like Regan King outside him.

I would have liked to have seen a full 80 mins of Davies/Tuilagi unfortunately that hasn't happened as I believe that could have been our best option.

We are really shafted now with Warbs out, that means BOD will almost certainly play with Roberts who has had no game-time of note. Probably with Manu benched and Foxy watching from the stands. Car Crash

flyhalffactory wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Davies is a most effective at 13 for me FHF, and there is an argument for playing him there outside of either Roberts or Tuilagi at 12.  Gatland's prefered gameplan relies on the 12 punching holes in midfield, and for all of Davies bulk and skill, he doesn't do that there.  

Whilst you may look at Roberts and Tuilagi and say it is unimaginative (it wouldn't have been my pick pre tour incidentally) I do believe that it is the best of what we have to get the job done the Gatland way.

But surely Davies didn't even attempt to do that once on Saturday, he didn't break the offensive line (or to be honest the defensive line) once. That's not his natural game, he likes to attack the line. It was clear Gatland stubbornly restrained both centres shackling them to such an extent that both were afraid to take a risk....... (like he stubbornly refused to bring on Farrell for the ineffective Sexton, and not bringing on Grant).

If you look at Davies time at 12 for the Scarlets he was very effective with an aware 13 like Regan King outside him.

I would have liked to have seen a full 80 mins of Davies/Tuilagi unfortunately that hasn't happened as I believe that could have been our best option.

We are really shafted now with Warbs out, that means BOD will almost certainly play with Roberts who has had no game-time of note. Probably with Manu benched and Foxy watching from the stands. Car Crash

BOD has played like Brad Barritt the last 2 tests.. good defence but offers nothing else.. Jonathan Davies likewise...
If it is time to gamble on getting over the gain line.. lets play;
12- Jamie Roberts
13- Manu

[quote="thomh"]

RubyGuby wrote:Warburton was our MOM on Sat so a great loss. The bal;ance of the backrow is key here and I want an abrasive and powerful fron 5.

7 - Tipuruc
8 - Faetau
6 - SOB/Lydiate or Croft

If we have AWJ alongside Grey/Evans we don't need Croft

1 - Corbisiero
2 - Hibbard
3 - Jones/Cole

We need that platform we had in the first half of the first test

We need the platform from the first half of the first test, but you don't pick Youngs or Croft?[/quote



Ok - we need the best platform possible and we have lost the grunt and strength of POC and so I'd go with the most powerful front 5.I know the first half of the 1st test was ok and I know who was there but I would ask for even more than that so we are not bullied there. Funny how England had the worse line out stats in the 6 Nations - There's more to line out play than the fella throwing in - Hence I'd have AWJ and Evans in the 2nd row and possibly Croft then to guarantee front ball at the line out. Toby and Tips alongside in the back row to add some more dynamism with SOB on the bench.  

My team for the 3rd test

15 -Halfpenny
14- Bowe
13-Manu
12-Roberts
11- North
10- Sexton
9- Youngs
8- Falatau
7- SOB
6- Lydiate
5- AWJ
4- Gray
3- Jones
2- Tom Youngs
1- Corbs

Subs
Mako, Hibbert, Cole, Parling, Croft, Phillips, Farrell, Wade,

Bit of a gamble having Wade on the bench but it is all or nothing...

Croft and Tipuric together is too lightweight, they need to partner Tipuric with the bulk of SOB or Lydiate. In the centre, there is no way BOD gets dropped. With POC and Warburton already out where would the leadership come from without BOD? You need lots of leaders on the pitch, and without BOD there is a distinct lack of them, especially in the backline. I want to see Tuilagi at 12, someone who will actually get over the gainline effectively.

JmD, I agree with the need for leaders, but actually you have to justify your selection as a player first. You can't pick somebody just because they are a leader if either a) they are not good enough, or b) do not fit the chosen gameplan.

Drico will captain the side. Its almost a certainty. Warburton will be missed but we have Tipuric who more than deserves his shot at the title.

GG, I agree that it is almost a certainty that Drico will captain the side, that doesn't make it the right call.

 BOD and Jamie have a good understanding in the centre so it's a fair shout IMO, especially if we get a better platform. It's been tough on the midfield and 10 with such poor ball and playing on the back foot - Correct that and we're in business

RubyGuby wrote: Funny how England had the worse line out stats in the 6 Nations - There's more to line out play than the fella throwing in - Hence I'd have AWJ and Evans in the 2nd row and possibly Croft then to guarantee front ball at the line out. Toby and Tips alongside in the back row to add some more dynamism with SOB on the bench.  

I agree there's more than the guy throwing in, which is why I mentioned Youngs and Croft.

Either Croft/O'Brien or Lydiate/Tipuric for me, and given that the lineout struggled a bit at the weekend without enough jumpers for Australia to mark, I'd go for the first one.

Wade as a sub for an all out create a avenue of space for him and let him go last gasper in another close ending.

Too much one way thinking here.  Get on the blunderbusses and pull the trigger.  

That might work to a point but if it hasn't worked by the end then another blunderbuss on the bench isn't really going to add anything to the party. It's then that you might want something altogether diminutive and slick to punch a final nail.