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Are we (Poms) being a tad arrogant?

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Post by Scrumpy Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:52 am

Are we being a tad arrogant expecting England to whitewash the Aussies?

Sure the current Aussie team aren't a patch on past teams but I really can't see them not being in a position to win a test at some point during this series.

Just because England should win doesn't mean they will.
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Post by Stella Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:57 am

Botham is the only POM expecting a whitewash?

And Duty of course Very Happy 
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Post by sirfredperry Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:03 am

Totally agree. See my post on "Betting on Australia". Ridiculous for Swann to get himself quoted as talking about a 5-0 whitewash for England. Remember how a similar remark rebounded on McGrath in 2005 ! England have never won more than three Ashes Tests in an English summer.

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Post by Stella Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:06 am

sirfredperry wrote:Totally agree. See my post on "Betting on Australia". Ridiculous for Swann to get himself quoted as talking about a 5-0 whitewash for England. Remember how a similar remark rebounded on McGrath in 2005 ! England have never won more than three Ashes Tests in an English summer.

So two people out of 57 million have said we will win 5-0. Not exactly the majority. Most on here know it will be close, or closer that we thought it would be a few weeks ago.
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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:07 am

An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

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Post by sirfredperry Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:21 am

F of Fury. You're spot on about KP. They say it's usually bowlers who win matches but KP is that rarity - the match-winning batsman. If he has, say, eight or nine knocks in this series he could well end up playing one or two innings that win the Test.
  OK, there will be the infuriating 41s - just look up and see how many times he's been out in the 40s in Tests - but you have to play him if fit. I know England won without him in 2009 and that he can be a egocentric son-of-a-b. But who would you pick to replace him?


Last edited by sirfredperry on Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 10:28 am

You know, if the weather stays fine, England do have a good chance of a whitewash here. 4 match-winning bowlers, about 4 batsman that average over 45 in Tests. Australia will be lucky to even get one test on the board.

And if I'm being a tad arrogant, well this is the first series in my lifetime where England have been clear favourites to win a Test series over Australia. I'm just enjoying it is all.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:04 am

Fists of Fury wrote:An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

Are you trying to adopt Trebell's mantle, Fists?

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Post by kingraf Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:16 am

no more than you were during the South Africa series, real delusions of grandeur then. Now a lot more tempered
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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:18 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

Are you trying to adopt Trebell's mantle, Fists?

Well, I'm sure the man himself will be here to perform the necessary deeds, Hoggy. I'm just a pessimistic sod.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:26 am

Fists of Fury wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

Are you trying to adopt Trebell's mantle, Fists?

Well, I'm sure the man himself will be here to perform the necessary deeds, Hoggy. I'm just a pessimistic sod.

At least, that way, you're less likely to be disappointed Very Happy 
Do think that, at least on these boards, there is a little too much pessimism though. While I think Duty is a little too confident England, at this point in time, have to be firm favorites IMO.
I mean, if you were to pick a composite team from the two squads today, it would contain, in all likelihood, a maximum of 4 Aussies, and even that would be a bit of a stretch. Of course, that doesn't mean that Australia cannot win but you'd still have to look to an England victory at this stage.

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Post by msp83 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 11:56 am

At this stage, a combined 11 from the 2 squads might look perhaps like this.
Alastair Cook
Shane Watson
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Michael Clarke
Ian Bell?
Matt Prior
Graeme Swann
Peter Siddle
James Pattinson
James Anderson.
After the series, I expect Steven Finn, Joe Root, Mitchell Starc and Steven Smith might complicate the debate.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:03 pm

msp83 wrote:At this stage, a combined 11 from the 2 squads might look perhaps like this.
Alastair Cook
Shane Watson
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Michael Clarke
Ian Bell?
Matt Prior
Graeme Swann
Peter Siddle
James Pattinson
James Anderson.
After the series, I expect Steven Finn, Joe Root, Mitchell Starc and Steven Smith might complicate the debate.

As I say, 4 Aussies. And even then Pattinson and/or Siddle are debatable in comparison to Finn/Broad IMO. Even Watson/Root is quite a close run thing.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:04 pm

I'm still not seeing what all the fuss is about.

England are by far the superior team, if they play to the best of their abilities, they will win, and win handsomely.

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:14 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

Are you trying to adopt Trebell's mantle, Fists?

Well, I'm sure the man himself will be here to perform the necessary deeds, Hoggy. I'm just a pessimistic sod.

At least, that way, you're less likely to be disappointed Very Happy 
Do think that, at least on these boards, there is a little too much pessimism though. While I think Duty is a little too confident England, at this point in time, have to be firm favorites IMO.
I mean, if you were to pick a composite team from the two squads today, it would contain, in all likelihood, a maximum of 4 Aussies, and even that would be a bit of a stretch. Of course, that doesn't mean that Australia cannot win but you'd still have to look to an England victory at this stage.

Yes England should win, on paper. But as we know, paper doesn't score too many runs or take too many wickets. It might be enough to get Phil Hughes out edging one to slip, but that's about all we can rely on from our flat friend. Plenty of other things come in to consideration - complacency, pressure, weather, luck. It requires more than mere ability, which I'm sure you're fully aware of.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:36 pm

On paper the 2005 Aussie team was better than England, but our players performed absolutely at the top of their ability while a few of the Aussies were a bit quiet (and McGrath picked up the freak injury by standing on a ball during the warm up) - the result was one of the most compelling series ever and a fantastic win for England.

This time we are the marginally stronger team on paper - for the composite team I'd only have Michael Clarke as a definite from the Aussies (Watson is arguable given Root's promotion to opener and I need to see how their bowlers go in our conditions, where they won't necessarily get pace and bounce). However, there are reasons to be concerned, as England's form with the bat in particular has been up and down over the last year or so. Hopefully KP's return will take some of the pressure off Bell and he can start to produce again.

I think we'll win the series, but I doubt that a whitewash is on the cards - we'll probably have one poor match somewhere along the line, so I can see something like a 3-1 series win.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:41 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

Are you trying to adopt Trebell's mantle, Fists?

Well, I'm sure the man himself will be here to perform the necessary deeds, Hoggy. I'm just a pessimistic sod.

At least, that way, you're less likely to be disappointed Very Happy 
Do think that, at least on these boards, there is a little too much pessimism though. While I think Duty is a little too confident England, at this point in time, have to be firm favorites IMO.
I mean, if you were to pick a composite team from the two squads today, it would contain, in all likelihood, a maximum of 4 Aussies, and even that would be a bit of a stretch. Of course, that doesn't mean that Australia cannot win but you'd still have to look to an England victory at this stage.

Yes England should win, on paper. But as we know, paper doesn't score too many runs or take too many wickets. It might be enough to get Phil Hughes out edging one to slip, but that's about all we can rely on from our flat friend. Plenty of other things come in to consideration - complacency, pressure, weather, luck. It requires more than mere ability, which I'm sure you're fully aware of.

Of course anything might happen, that's the beauty of sport. But, OTBE, England are favorites, and I don't see a problem with saying so. If any other country's fans says that their team can or should win, it's viewed as confidence at best or bravado at worst. With England it's regarded as overconfidence or arrogance, even by English fans. Don't really know why that is.
While statements that we're going to win 5-0 are, of course, over the top, saying that England SHOULD win, if they play to the best of their ability and have their fair share of luck, isn't, IMO.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:54 pm

who are the POMS expecting a 5-0 win Shocked 
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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 09 Jul 2013, 12:58 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:An Aussie win wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Beyond Anderson and Swann our bowling is weak, and our batting can be a little hit and miss at times. Without KP's return I'd be very worried - let's hope he plays one or two of his genius hands in the series, as he has done in so many others.

Are you trying to adopt Trebell's mantle, Fists?

Well, I'm sure the man himself will be here to perform the necessary deeds, Hoggy. I'm just a pessimistic sod.

At least, that way, you're less likely to be disappointed Very Happy 
Do think that, at least on these boards, there is a little too much pessimism though. While I think Duty is a little too confident England, at this point in time, have to be firm favorites IMO.
I mean, if you were to pick a composite team from the two squads today, it would contain, in all likelihood, a maximum of 4 Aussies, and even that would be a bit of a stretch. Of course, that doesn't mean that Australia cannot win but you'd still have to look to an England victory at this stage.

Yes England should win, on paper. But as we know, paper doesn't score too many runs or take too many wickets. It might be enough to get Phil Hughes out edging one to slip, but that's about all we can rely on from our flat friend. Plenty of other things come in to consideration - complacency, pressure, weather, luck. It requires more than mere ability, which I'm sure you're fully aware of.

Of course anything might happen, that's the beauty of sport. But, OTBE, England are favorites, and I don't see a problem with saying so. If any other country's fans says that their team can or should win, it's viewed as confidence at best or bravado at worst. With England it's regarded as overconfidence or arrogance, even by English fans. Don't really know why that is.
While statements that we're going to win 5-0 are, of course, over the top, saying that England SHOULD win, if they play to the best of their ability and have their fair share of luck, isn't, IMO.

Yeah agree with that.

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:10 pm

I think the sensible consensus is that England are favourites as they are clearly the better side overall (batting is more solid and spin bowling a class apart, whilst seam bowling is debateable), but not by so much that if they don't play as well as they can, Australia have a good shot.

And let's be honest, apart from the series win in India, England have rarely played to the best of their ability in recent times.

The main reason Australia have a chance is that their bowling is potentially very good, and England's batting recently has been somewhat fragile.

Suggestions that Australia are hopeless or England vastly superior are IMO misguided - but to be fair these are few and far between; England are better, but the difference in class is some way short of the gulf which there was during the late 90s and early 00s. Comparisons with 2005 and maybe 2009 are perhaps a fairer indication (Australia had the better team but not by much).

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 1:16 pm

KP_fan wrote:who are the POMS expecting a 5-0 win Shocked 

Far more likely I say for that scoreline to occur, that Australia drawing or winning the series.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 09 Jul 2013, 2:55 pm

Duty281 wrote:I'm still not seeing what all the fuss is about.

England are by far the superior team, if they play to the best of their abilities, they will win, and win handsomely.

England are on paper superior. OTOH, they struggled to put NZ away earlier in the year - and even as weak as they are, Australia are still (mutter mutter) a better side than NZ
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:20 pm

For Australia to win the series, we will need to be below par. Just like in 05 for us to win the series, we needed the Aussies to be below par to win the series. We are the better side at the moment. I see no arrogance in that, that is the truth
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Post by Stella Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:22 pm

We will also need Jimmy to tread on a ball, and win a game with a dodgy decision, like in 2005.
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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 3:54 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/england-batter-australia-ashes-cant-2037111

Ian Botham obviously did the same as I do when I write up one of my 'England to glory' threads; Jerusalem/GSTQ/Land of Hope and Glory on loop, several cups of tea, roll out the 1966/2003/2005/2012 DVDs, think of England and then, only then, merrily write away.

"It is going to be like a Mini lining up in a drag race with a Ferrari five times. How is it going to win?"

God bless you, Ian Botham.

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Post by VTR Tue 09 Jul 2013, 4:22 pm

To be honest I wish Beefy would shut his trap. Fine saying we are favourites, giving it the whole Glenn McGrath is over the top to say the least.

If it all goes wrong we'll all be tarred with his prediction yet I doubt you will find any sane England fan that honestly thinks it will be 5-0. Given our natural pessimism most would go 3-1 at best!

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Post by trebellbobaggins Tue 09 Jul 2013, 5:22 pm

Having read that this attack is class and seeing our batting struggle I'm thinking Aussie are favourites for the series so no arrogance here.

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:33 pm

Heres to an Australian victory hopefully cider

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:40 pm

Steffan wrote:Heres to an Australian victory hopefully cider

England and Welsh cricket team Steffan, English and Welsh. OK 

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Post by trebellbobaggins Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:43 pm

is Steffan Welsh then but supporting Aussie against the England and Wales cricket boards' team?
 
If that's the case, why?

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:46 pm

I generally try to stay neutral during the ashes but with the English arrogance going in to this series along with my Aussie mates needing cheering up after Wales...sorry...mean the Lions beating them in rugby im supporting the Aussie boys against the 'poms' this time

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Post by trebellbobaggins Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:48 pm

that's a shame.
 
I'd never support Aussie against Wales.
 
I was chuffed to see Corbs, Parling and the Irish helping your boys stuff the Aussies up front (and it's a shame some of you guys have to say things like that.. that's the arrogance you're talking about surely?) and i'd hope most of us from these small isles would support each other, especially in a sport with a joint board like this.
 
that's a shame. Aussie don't need others to support them, they are quite good enough.
 
and this arrogance seems pretty scarce to me with most being realistic.


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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:49 pm

Heres the ECB page

http://www.ecb.co.uk/

It says rise for ENGLAND

If there is any mention of WALES on there then let me know thumbsup

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Post by Nakatomi Plaza Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:51 pm

When Glenn McGrath used to talk about whitewashes, it was confidence, yet when an Englishman does it's arrogance. Double standards in play me thinks

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Post by trebellbobaggins Tue 09 Jul 2013, 6:51 pm

but it is the England and Wales board, whether they call the team that or not.

Hence Croft being a player for a good amount of time and Simon Jones of course (who would have been a legend health allowing).

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 7:10 pm

Are there gonna be any games in Cardiff this time? I hope not

Nothing worse than a sunny day in the city being spoliled by all those 'Barmy Army' drunken yobbos waving St. George flags around provocatively and singing vulgar songs

Not as bad as the England football supporters though singing bigoted anti-Welsh songs and throwing plastic sheep around (which were supplied by the official supporters club) during the anthems

England rugby fans are a good bunch though always have a good crack with them when they come to Cardiff and they are well mannered and behaved thumbsup

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 7:41 pm

Steffan wrote:Are there gonna be any games in Cardiff this time? I hope not

Nothing worse than a sunny day in the city being spoliled by all those 'Barmy Army' drunken yobbos waving St. George flags around provocatively and singing vulgar songs

Not as bad as the England football supporters though singing bigoted anti-Welsh songs and throwing plastic sheep around (which were supplied by the official supporters club) during the anthems

England rugby fans are a good bunch though always have a good crack with them when they come to Cardiff and they are well mannered and behaved thumbsup

Oh dear Steffan, jealous of England, can't hack a bit of banter, it's all starting to add up now.

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 7:58 pm

Duty281 wrote:Oh dear Steffan, jealous of England, can't hack a bit of banter, it's all starting to add up now
Jealous of England? Laugh 

Not a chance pal. Wales is a small nation of 3 million people that punches above its weight

England is a huge nation of 50 million that under achieves in sport

6N champions (who did we destroy again to win it on the last game?) and an Aussie scalp in rugby

Premiership player of the year in football. Who captained Team GB football in last years Olympics?...Oh yeah a Welshman

Cleverly is now stepping up his game in boxing

Looking foward to the English and Welsh Premiership in football next season as well Very Happy 

Admittedly we do seem to be lacking in sports such as golf and F1 but again we havnt got 50 million people to choose from

Back to rugby and the fact that England only had 2 players in the Lions test team on Saturday shows how far you have fallen since winning the world cup 10 years ago

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:11 pm

Of course you are Steffan. That's why you're constantly anti-English. I don't feel the need to be anti-Welsh do I? And if England underachieve in sport, gawd knows what you'd think of India! So what have we got here then:

6N champions - Well played.
Beat Australia? Not since, what, 2008? And no idea how long since you beat Aus in Aus. Lions win, not a Welsh win. Remember that.
PL player of the year? Plays for a nice English club, trained by a nice English club as well. Football in the Olympics? Laughable concept.
Cleverly? That's nice. What about Froch, Brook, Haye, Macklin etc. Then again, they all represent Britain, not England/Wales.

And have England fallen in rugby? 2003-2011 was a bit of a drop, now we're climbing back up the mountain. Remember how England beat New Zealand last autumn? Wales haven't done that in what? Half a century or so. laughing

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:15 pm

So whats your point then?

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Post by Breadvan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:26 pm

Steffan wrote:Are there gonna be any games in Cardiff this time? I hope not

Nothing worse than a sunny day in the city being spoliled by all those 'Barmy Army' drunken yobbos waving St. George flags around provocatively and singing vulgar songs

Not as bad as the England football supporters though singing bigoted anti-Welsh songs and throwing plastic sheep around (which were supplied by the official supporters club) during the anthems

England rugby fans are a good bunch though always have a good crack with them when they come to Cardiff and they are well mannered and behaved thumbsup

Saw non if that during the ICC game in Cardiff last month. Everybody having a great time, together. Flags of both England and Wales. Given the late start and 80% of the crowd were lashed. There was no trouble at all. As for the football. The only trouble at the last wal/eng game was when the Swans fans where being escorted up st. Mary st. You can't enough come together for the national team.....If you want vulgar songs? Try the concourse of the millennium after an England 6 nations game.
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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:33 pm

Duty281 wrote:What about Froch, Brook, Haye, Macklin etc. Then again, they all represent Britain, not England/Wales
They represent themselves not a country

The only boxers representing a country are amateurs in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games etc

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:48 pm

Steffan wrote:So whats your point then?

You're jealous of England, and it's very refreshing to see.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:50 pm

Steffan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:What about Froch, Brook, Haye, Macklin etc. Then again, they all represent Britain, not England/Wales
They represent themselves not a country

The only boxers representing a country are amateurs in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games etc

If they win a World title, they are a British World Champion, not an English World Champion, or Welsh World Champion.

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 8:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Steffan wrote:So whats your point then?

You're jealous of England, and it's very refreshing to see.
I couldnt care less. Maybe I went a bit over the top about about England football fans. All I said is I dont like it when the Barmy Army are in Cardiff all lashed up. I also said your rugby supporters are a good bunch. If you want to see jealousy have a look at all the hatred being spread about Andy Murray during Wimbledon from your Nation (be warned some of the language is very bad)


http://wingsoverscotland.com/british-together/

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Post by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:02 pm

Steffan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Steffan wrote:So whats your point then?

You're jealous of England, and it's very refreshing to see.
I couldnt care less. Maybe I went a bit over the top about about England football fans. All I said is I dont like it when the Barmy Army are in Cardiff all lashed up. I also said your rugby supporters are a good bunch. If you want to see jealousy have a look at all the hatred being spread about Andy Murray during Wimbledon from your Nation (be warned some of the language is very bad)


http://wingsoverscotland.com/british-together/

There are tw@s in every nation Steffan. For the record, I was delighted with Murray's victory and supported him all the way. As did the majority of Englishmen and women.

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:There are tw@s in every nation Steffan. For the record, I was delighted with Murray's victory and supported him all the way. As did the majority of Englishmen and women
Good for you lot. As did most people in Wales. Being as an Englishman is not capable of winning anymore and us Welsh have never produced a top tennis player then we may as well cheer on a Jock Very Happy

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:12 pm

The barmy army in cardiff lashed up./ Oh dear what a shame your local pubs are getting some business!!

These are pretty respectful are cricket fans- not like your rugby lot!!

BTW

Justin Rose won the us Open the other week- another englishman you can attack mate!

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:15 pm

Steffan wrote:I generally try to stay neutral during the ashes but with the English arrogance going in to this series along with my Aussie mates needing cheering up after Wales...sorry...mean the Lions beating them in rugby im supporting the Aussie boys against the 'poms' this time


you do realise the team is england and wales don't you Doh.

Blame your country just because you have no players not the team.. Lol i take it you wouldnt have supported the lions if it didnt have welsh in the team then?

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Post by Steffan Tue 09 Jul 2013, 9:17 pm

mystiroakey wrote:These are pretty respectful are cricket fans- not like your rugby lot!!
You get some idiots on matchdays I wont deny but thats in lots of sports and countries so to single out Welsh rugby fans is a bit petty


mystiroakey wrote:Justin Rose won the us Open the other week- another englishman you can attack mate!
I prefere Lee Westwood to be honest. But good for Rose thumbsup 

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