putting the Summer into perspective.

I know we have only had one round and i would like to revisit this again at the end of the 4Nations.

NZ beat france well and have carried that on with their win over Aus away from home.  This i think reafirms that NZ are the top team.

SA beat Italy, Scotland & Samoa well as to be expected and carried it on with Argentina confirming they are No 2 in the world pushing for No 1.

I think it shows that Samoa, Italy, Scotland and Argentina are probably 8-11.

But where does it leave the others.

France did poor against NZ away liks most teams do.
England's squad missing regular starters destoryed a second string Argie team away from home.
Ireland just like England sent over a weaker squad beat USA & Canada (who had been together for a period of time playing in the PNC.)
Wales sent an even weaker squad to Japan (who had a period of time together in the PNC) and though they lost it means nothing due to the players.

And then there is Aus who lost to a make shift side 2-1 after losing alot to injury.

So are we now facing into a time of the top two teams (who i think also have the most players overseas) quiet abit ahead of everyone else with a chasing pack of 9 teams who actually don't have much between them and all depends on their day.  Who can win the odd game or come close but really are behind the top 2.

Also is Aus now suffering from a poor player base as i don't think they have many players overseas.

I think it is yet to be proven whether Heyneke Meyer and his charges can challenge New Zealand, we turned the corner against OZ last year, but this year we must push the advantage and beat them home and away, if we don't manage to do that, we aren't close to NZ yet.

Biltong wrote:I think it is yet to be proven whether Heyneke Meyer and his charges can challenge New Zealand, we turned the corner against OZ last year, but this year we must push the advantage and beat them home and away, if we don't manage to do that, we aren't close to NZ yet.

Looking at your second and third choice in each position i think you will and are the only team that can keep a challange regardless of injuries.
Also no team will out muscle you, they might get pairity but not an upper hand.

Only problem BB is that you play us at Eden Park and the last time you won there was 1932. Also you play us after Oz (coming from Argentina) and we potter about in NZ for three games. Ideal for us and a huge ask for you.

As for your assessment Brendan only the end of year tour will tell as this is a Lions year. Wales have tough opposition and NZ has a tough schedule. I think SA and Australia have their big games too so perfect opportunity to see where teams are. England has 3 tests in NZ which I'm looking forward to and the 6n is always interesting as France tend to perform well a year after a Lions tour.

I don't think the June tests or Lions told us much we didn't know. Like you said after the top three there's not a lot in it but Wales and England are leading the way. Time will tell what effect Schmidt will have on Ireland and Australia appear to be slipping down the rung and the autumn tour will tell us how far.

PS What a summer it's been. I love this weather but I'm almost looking forward to a cold rainy day. I can't remember when the last time that was.

Hence me saying we should first sort out Australia home and away.  

Yes it'd be a shame not to cash in to Oz's dip in form. The Jburg test will be my most anticipated match followed by Twickenham.

If you play as well as Dunedin last year and a little bit smarter you may well break the Eden Park hoodoo. We just tend to play our best rugby against you there for some reason.

NZ..............SA.......OZ...England..Wales..Others

Oh and it hasn't been mentioned but it also shows Argentina are really going to struggle at the top level. Their 1st XV can't match the SANZAR sides and their second/third XV looks pretty off the pace too.

yappysnap wrote:NZ..............SA.......OZ...England..Wales..Others

you have one full stop too many between us and NZ.  

yappysnap wrote:NZ..............SA.......OZ...England..Wales..Others

England are probably level with the Aussies in truth.

Biltong wrote:

yappysnap wrote:NZ..............SA.......OZ...England..Wales..Others

you have one full stop too many between us and NZ.  

You know, I was thinking that as well!  

Oh and I'd still have Eng behind the Ozzies at the moment, just, but they've shown that they're a little smarter (shocking I know) then this new young Eng side. Are we playing your boys this autumn?

Can't remember who we play, I think it is Wales, France and Scotland.

Eng are playing Aus, NZ and... Samoa?
Wales are playing (in order) SA, Arg, Tonga, Aus.

I thought we had a good chance of putting one over on SA until I seen their demolition job of the Puma's.

I still think that Aus is falling back to the chasing pack as backed up by their results over the last two years.

They have lost to NZ & SA as expected but also Scotland England Samoa Ireland and a hammering by France & close games against Wales. Italy should have beaten them in Milan aswell. In the same time SA and NZ have only been improving.

Also strenght is in squad depth. I think Aus has fallen down to the celtic nations where their first 15 is good but injuries to key players cost them. They nolonger have the players of NZ, SA, Eng and France needed to maintain top 3 places.

England have Australia, Argentina and New Zealand in that order. If Australia have a poor Rugby Championship and were to lose the third Bledisloe game, then we can hopefully hit them while their morale is poor. We should be looking to put Argentina away, especially at home and especially considering the size of the scoreline South Africa put on them. New Zealand at home will be a tough one, but after beating them last year and ahead of going to their place for three tests both teams should be hugely up for that one.

For me England haven't proved anything over the summer by beating the Argentina team we played. Win 3 in the autumn and we can say we're genuinely a top 3 side.

The Saint wrote:Eng are playing Aus, NZ and... Samoa?
Wales are playing (in order) SA, Arg, Tonga, Aus.

I thought we had a good chance of putting one over on SA until I seen their demolition job of the Puma's.

SA are going to be a massive challenge first up in their current form... Thought of it makes me nervous.

NZ play Japan France England and Ireland with a split squad. Not all travel to Japan and some won't make the final match.

Eng has profited from their win against NZ but I think the end of year tour will sort out the ranking anomalies. England show great potential but I'd place Wales ahead of them despite their inability to beat the SH sides in recent times.

The gap appears to be closing between Australia and some of the NH sides but a draw and a loss against SA and NZ respectively is not enough to suggest a trend. For the moment they are just minor blips.

I think behind NZ and SA the quality of international rugby is extremely poor right now.
 
Wales and England, with relatively young squads look best placed to lead the chasing pack. The 2015 RWC will be dire if a few sides don't buck up their ideas.
 
IMO the top ten (ok eleven) are:
 
1 NZ
GAP
2 SA
GAP
3 Australia
4 Wales
5 England
6 France
GAP
7 Scotland
8 Samoa
9 Ireland
10 Argentina
11 Italy
GAP

Well in the 6n England got beat by wales who got beat by ireland who got beat by Scotland who got beat by france who got beat by Italy who got beat by England.

I think that the gap between each is so small to no existent except the top two.

France are the one team that is hardest to place. Aus probably are slightly ahead of the rest of the chasing pack but would be suprised if they were beaten in very game in the AIs.

So, taking a deep breath to before putting this out there, are people really saying the gap between SH and NH has now been replaced with a gap between NZ/SA and the rest?
Have the NH teams improved or are we solely putting this shift down to poor Oz depth coached poorly for the last couple of years?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So, taking a deep breath to before putting this out there, are people really saying the gap between SH and NH has now been replaced with a gap between NZ/SA and the rest?
Have the NH teams improved or are we solely putting this shift down to poor Oz depth coached poorly for the last couple of years?

I think that Aus is falling back over the last few years while SA is rising back up to the top 2. We may have a better view in december.

Brendan wrote:Well in the 6n England got beat by wales who got beat by ireland who got beat by Scotland who got beat by france who got beat by Italy who got beat by England.

I think that the gap between each is so small to no existent except the top two.

France are the one team that is hardest to place.  Aus probably are slightly ahead of the rest of the chasing pack but would be suprised if they were beaten in very game in the AIs.

Wales still won back to back six nations, winning five consecutive games away from home is very impressive. That makes them the better of the NH sides.

The world rankings are pretty much spot on as usual.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So, taking a deep breath to before putting this out there, are people really saying the gap between SH and NH has now been replaced with a gap between NZ/SA and the rest?
Have the NH teams improved or are we solely putting this shift down to poor Oz depth coached poorly for the last couple of years?

For me its NZ and the rest. SA are closest to NZ but I'm not fully convinced by them yet.


Some teams have gone backwards. Australia, Argentina, France and Ireland especially. One thing I notice about Australia is they have some average players in the backline these days. Before it was some average forwards but they usually had a classy backline. Nowadays they've some class players but average players throughout the team and squad too. Its actually amazing that they've been so good in the past, consistently rantked in the worlds top 3 teams because they have plenty of other sports there. Argentina has suffered many retirements and look likely to have to go through a rebuilding phase. The French league is full of foreigners and they've had average underage teams for years now. Also the old French flair is gone, instead we have a physicality dominated Top 14 league. I'm confident Ireland under Schmidt will be much tougher and there is a bit of depth there now too.


England and Wales have improved and are building nicely. Wales has been the better side but a few injuries and they could be in trouble. Its the same for most teams. England has more depth and some quality coming through now so I expect them to remain very competitive or get better.


Italy, Scotland and Samoa have improved. You also have the likes of Canada, Romania and Georgia building.

England's tour of Argentina told us absolutely nothing apart from what we already know.

That's is we have a quite vast array of youngsters with serious "potential"...who have proven nothing until they come up against some of the big boys on the pitch.

The England boys in the Lions however (T.Youngs, Parling, Corbs etc) showed that we have some players who are very much international standard players and can put in quality performances against the big boys...

Some have been answered however we still have many questions to be answered.

All in all....encouraging.

Lots of depth for England, just not sure about the actual quality. It's difficult to pick between the 3-6 potentially very good but at the moment just good players in each position

There are only probably 3 guaranteed starters at the moment Corbs, Morgan and Tuilagi.

Choosing the rest would be helped I guess if more of our clubs made it through to Euro knock outs to be tested.

I would say the front row is a certainty Yappy..
Corbs..Youngs..Cole and its a good one...

PS I also think Parling is making himself a certainty...

Cole yes if he has a better season then last, Youngs questionable depending upon Webber and Hartley. Parling again questionable if some of the bigger boys come good.

I just don't think any of them can afford poor starts to their seasons as the competition is so close and they all have their own big weaknesses at the moment too.

Im not a massive fan of Parling...but he is a team player...a worker and I just think lancs has him as one of the first names. Again...don't think we can really judge attwood or anyones performance against a poor Argentina B side.

Hartley regardless of his behaviour hasn't performed for England and Webber has to play against the top sides before we can say anything. Youngs has played them all I think...and played well for the lions that makes him a certainty.

Likewise Cole is class...and only Davy Wilson at the moment who could challenge...but he will come off the bench.

True but as I say they all have well defined weaknesses, so if the others can come in and show better all round games or attributes that make them stronger to the team then they could take their shirts.

Corbs to me has no weakness (except the injuries), Morgan is the best 8 by a long way and Tuilagi has shown that he's worked a lot on his only weakness (passing) and it's not really an issue now.

Well I agree that they can be challenged - very few places at the moment are certainties (something I don't like to be honest) . But I think we need to see the pretenders to the shirts in the AI's against the SH teams to see how they go...

But certainly it will be encouraging if they can all continue their excellent performances for their clubs from last season...

I think England are building a squad which is needed to win the RWC. France due to such poor selections are building a massive squad but no team. The other 4 NH teams are building teams but not squads so any injuries will cost them.

Aus maybe all these injuries are helping them to build up their squad

maestegmafia wrote:

Brendan wrote:Well in the 6n England got beat by wales who got beat by ireland who got beat by Scotland who got beat by france who got beat by Italy who got beat by England.

I think that the gap between each is so small to no existent except the top two.

France are the one team that is hardest to place.  Aus probably are slightly ahead of the rest of the chasing pack but would be suprised if they were beaten in very game in the AIs.

Wales still won back to back six nations, winning five consecutive games away from home is very impressive. That makes them the better of the NH sides.

Problem with Wales is they lose to pretty much every SH side they play hence being ranked below England. E.g. Japan,Samoa and Argentina

England beat the best team in the world convincingly. Wales don't have any win like that.

Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Brendan wrote:Well in the 6n England got beat by wales who got beat by ireland who got beat by Scotland who got beat by france who got beat by Italy who got beat by England.

I think that the gap between each is so small to no existent except the top two.

France are the one team that is hardest to place.  Aus probably are slightly ahead of the rest of the chasing pack but would be suprised if they were beaten in very game in the AIs.

Wales still won back to back six nations, winning five consecutive games away from home is very impressive. That makes them the better of the NH sides.

Problem with Wales is they lose to pretty much every SH side they play hence being ranked below England. E.g. Japan,Samoa and Argentina

England beat the best team in the world convincingly. Wales don't have any win like that.

Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

As i said on another topic England are building a nice Squad. The team isn't flashy but it is hard to beat. One thing that has been overlooked due to Wales results v NH teams is that in the last four competions England have only lost one game in each. Maybe they don't quite have the belief to finish it off but they still have won 4 from 5 in the last 3 6N and RWC.

Us rabo nations are two/three injuries away from not competing. Wales playing England away from home will tell us a bit more as to how they do in the RWC.

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Brendan wrote:Well in the 6n England got beat by wales who got beat by ireland who got beat by Scotland who got beat by france who got beat by Italy who got beat by England.

I think that the gap between each is so small to no existent except the top two.

France are the one team that is hardest to place.  Aus probably are slightly ahead of the rest of the chasing pack but would be suprised if they were beaten in very game in the AIs.

Wales still won back to back six nations, winning five consecutive games away from home is very impressive. That makes them the better of the NH sides.

Problem with Wales is they lose to pretty much every SH side they play hence being ranked below England. E.g. Japan,Samoa and Argentina

England beat the best team in the world convincingly. Wales don't have any win like that.

Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

It was a series draw, which saves face.

I'm not too sure the tour shown lack of depth in the playing side, but I think it did show lack of depth from a coaching and/or selection side. We took a number of uncapped players, but we also took a number of non-regional regular players too.

beshocked wrote:Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

I think you are ignoring the fact that Wales supplied 15 Lions and left out some experienced guys like Ryan Jones, Lee Byrne, Henson, Hook, Peel etc.

They haven't got depth across the board but this is improving. Come the RWC they will be serious contenders imo.

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

I think you are ignoring the fact that Wales supplied 15 Lions and left out some experienced guys like Ryan Jones, Lee Byrne, Henson, Hook, Peel etc.

They haven't got depth across the board but this is improving. Come the RWC they will be serious contenders imo.

That is no excuse, only Ryan Jones (maybe Hook) of that list are deemed as up to standards by the welsh setup (others may be out of favour for other reasons), so they would not have been considered even if we were missing a full 35 man squad.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

I think you are ignoring the fact that Wales supplied 15 Lions and left out some experienced guys like Ryan Jones, Lee Byrne, Henson, Hook, Peel etc.

They haven't got depth across the board but this is improving. Come the RWC they will be serious contenders imo.

That is no excuse, only Ryan Jones (maybe Hook) of that list are deemed as up to standards by the welsh setup (others may be out of favour for other reasons), so they would not have been considered even if we were missing a full 35 man squad.

That may well be but in such case the problem isn't depth then but the selection policy.

I think this coming 6Nations could be interesting.

Wales - as champions they will be going for three in a row but have hard games away to England and Ireland. They will also have to battle tiredness.
England - will be getting frustrated with 4 out of 5 wins in the last 3 6N. The have the problem of picking the right players (due to so many tight battles)
Scotland - they have a strong coach who made the kings work as a team. They will be expecting bigger things and wont be happy with a wooden spoon match.
Italy - they have improved each year since they replaced mallet and if they continue to improve their attack play at the same rate they will be though. They will target 2 home wins.
Ireland & France will have to bring more balance to their game plan.

beshocked wrote:
Problem with Wales is they lose to pretty much every SH side they play hence being ranked below England. E.g. Japan,Samoa and Argentina

England beat the best team in the world convincingly. Wales don't have any win like that.

Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

Yeah so losing to Japan, Samoa and Argentina is a regular occurrence now Beshocked? No, but England losing to Wales is.

Why shouldn't it be brushed under the carpet? It was our third team being coached by a clueless muppet. I did explain this a lot earlier for you I'm sure. Hopefully though, it did teach the Wales management that some players are nowhere near good enough and McBryde is not a decent coach.

Not sure how you would know if a 3rd string England/France wouldn't lose, when was the last time an a 3rd string team from those two nations played? We do lack depth compared to England and France, but with four times and a playing base 1/3 the size of England what did you expect?

Wales do well vs NH opposition there's no doubt about that but against SH opposition they struggle.

rodders Peel and Henson are hardly notable absentees. Ryan Jones I would agree but then he should have been picked.

A loss is still a loss. It still counts as a 1st ever win for Japan. If Wales didn't want to lose perhaps they should have put out a stronger squad.

Wales are a good side - they shouldn't have these losses to Japan,Argentina and Samoa on their record. Perhaps it's overconfidence - I don't know. This is why they are ranked below England.

England lose matches but if they do it's generally not by much and it's to teams generally ranked higher than them.

Hopefully for Wales after the Lions tour, many of the Welsh players now have the belief to beat a SH side.

rodders wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Don't know why the Welsh loss to Japan should be brushed under the carpet - a 3rd string England/France for example wouldn't have lost.

It shows the lack of depth in the Welsh side.

I think you are ignoring the fact that Wales supplied 15 Lions and left out some experienced guys like Ryan Jones, Lee Byrne, Henson, Hook, Peel etc.

They haven't got depth across the board but this is improving. Come the RWC they will be serious contenders imo.

That is no excuse, only Ryan Jones (maybe Hook) of that list are deemed as up to standards by the welsh setup (others may be out of favour for other reasons), so they would not have been considered even if we were missing a full 35 man squad.

That may well be but in such case the problem isn't depth then but the selection policy.

Come on SS, it's exactly what Rodders says, selection policy. Though guys like Hook,Byrne, Henson, Peel aren't really good enough to be in the first team they would have been very useful against Japan helping out all the inexperienced players. I don't understand the point in handing out caps to random players who won't be good enough for the international team. The selection policy will no doubt continue to be toxic in the coming seasons as semi-pro players from west wales get selected ahead of professional players, all because the union and the rest of the country don't like that Region.

Yeah so losing to Japan, Samoa and Argentina is a regular occurrence now Beshocked? No, but England losing to Wales is.

Saint, you are correct that Wales have the edge over us at the minute, but i think that shows the form and development of the teams in the recent years.

But Wales have to be alarmed that this team which has been developing a for a few years more than Englands is still unable to put in a victory over the top SH teams...and even continues to struggle against Samoa etc. Personally i think this is the difference between the teams.

beshocked wrote:Wales do well vs NH opposition there's no doubt about that but against SH opposition they struggle.

rodders Peel and Henson are hardly notable absentees. Ryan Jones I would agree but then he should have been picked.

A loss is still a loss. It still counts as a 1st ever win for Japan. If Wales didn't want to lose perhaps they should have put out a stronger squad.

Wales are a good side - they shouldn't have these losses to Japan,Argentina and Samoa on their record. Perhaps it's overconfidence - I don't know. This is why they are ranked below England.

England lose matches but if they do it's generally not by much and it's to teams generally ranked higher than them.

Hopefully for Wales after the Lions tour, many of the Welsh players now have the belief to beat a SH side.

I don't know what all of this means, after you just insinuated we lose regularly to Japan, Samoa and Argentina when that isn't the case.

The loss to Japan was fair, but won't have an effect on the team seeing as we have 25-30 players to come back into the arena and put their hands up for international selection. That is why it isn't much cause for concern. The only causes for concern would be McBryde taking over the reigns again, and the selection policy.

The Saint wrote:The selection policy will no doubt continue to be toxic in the coming seasons as semi-pro players from west wales get selected ahead of professional players, all because the union and the rest of the country don't like that Region.

Not too sure if I would count Neath or Swansea (Howells & Barker) as west, but I see your point.

I have heard rumour of, what I can believe, reasons for Byrne and Johnathan Thomas disappearing from the welsh squads (and also for Hook' being relegated to bench/training fodder). And if these rumours are right then I can honestly believe tht none of those involved would be called up to play again. Peel is getting on, and IMO he should be behind the likes of Tav Knoyle, Ll Williams, Webb, J Evans, Rees and G Davies. So yes it is selection policy, but so is no longer selecting Thomas Rhys Thomas, Nicky Robinson, ANdy Powell or me, the fact is they are either naughty boys or not up to grade.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Yeah so losing to Japan, Samoa and Argentina is a regular occurrence now Beshocked? No, but England losing to Wales is.

Saint, you are correct that Wales have the edge over us at the minute, but i think that shows the form and development of the teams in the recent years.

But Wales have to be alarmed that this team which has been developing a for a few years more than Englands is still unable to put in a victory over the top SH teams...and even continues to struggle against Samoa etc. Personally i think this is the difference between the teams.

Yeah this is true; though Wales have as many young players as England e.g. a number of them only became regulars during 2011 which isn't long ago. And most of them had to be blooded during the RWC warm-ups. Since then we've had more players transition in and out. So I'm not sure what excuse you're trying to make.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

The Saint wrote:The selection policy will no doubt continue to be toxic in the coming seasons as semi-pro players from west wales get selected ahead of professional players, all because the union and the rest of the country don't like that Region.

Not too sure if I would count Neath or Swansea (Howells & Barker) as west, but I see your point.

I have heard rumour of, what I can believe, reasons for Byrne and Johnathan Thomas disappearing from the welsh squads (and also for Hook' being relegated to bench/training fodder).  And if these rumours are right then I can honestly believe tht none of those involved would be called up to play again.  Peel is getting on, and IMO he should be behind the likes of Tav Knoyle, Ll Williams, Webb, J Evans, Rees and G Davies.  So yes it is selection policy, but so is no longer selecting Thomas Rhys Thomas, Nicky Robinson, ANdy Powell or me, the fact is they are either naughty boys or not up to grade.

It's West to somebody who lives on the Eastside .

TRT, Robinson and Powell is pushing it a bit SS... You can't seriously think the squad for Japan was better off without guys like Hook (even it was to play 12), Rees, R.Jones, etc. For me J Evans and G Davies are much better than Knoyle and Williams. Lloyd didn't do badly though. I haven't heard any of those rumours, though I assumed JT was out because he was rubbish.

Excuses? No.

Im merely saying that Wales have a more settled side than England and are a year or two ahead in development...however they as of yet have been unable to register a victory against the teams consistently at the top of the rankings..ie the SH teams.

This should be a concern for Gatland as a team most Wales fans consider inferior to them have put victories over them including a thumping of the AB's...