Putting the Lions into perspective : Well said Tom Youngs! [ed] Plus arguments about the 2013 tour apparently

"It does [mean more to play for England than it does the Lions]. You’re playing for your country – I feel very passionate about that and feel a great amount of pride playing for them.”

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/october/news-articles/291013_tom_youngs_aus

I could never understand why or how playing for a select superBaaBaas could ever beat playing for your country.

Step up Tom!
Hip hip
 

etc.

Suppose it depends if you want to win one of those tours down south or not. Based on recent southern visits only the lions have looked close to one.

Interesting that Youngs comes out with this comment just before an England international rather than the 1st Lions Test

Seriously though, it's up to the individual which they feel more passionate about or who they are prouder to represent. Just because the Lions is perceived as a 'higher' level than Home Nations international rugby it doesn't necessarily mean it's viewed with more reverence by all players.

Many Lions trot out the 'it's the highest level of rugby' and 'the biggest honour' but equally I'm sure there are many that agree with Tom. Also, I've heard talk that some Irish players value representing their province over Ireland though I don't have anything to back that up. Irish fans?

It's the same with supporters too. Some feel more of an affinity to 'club' rugby over international because it represents their locality. Some people just aren't 'into' the Lions.

Different strokes.

Scotland have done it..

GeordieFalcon wrote:Scotland have done it..

Scotland always get forgotten  

They do Cyril..and shouldnt..

agree that playing for the lions in the SH is probably a better option than a depleted national touring side for everyone. but i dont think anything beats winning at twickenham or millenium stadium for your national side.

if the english team is to reach its potential, they need to show much more pride and less paid professionalism when they don the jersey. we could certainly learn something from the almost everyone else in that regard i think.

GeordieFalcon wrote:They do Cyril..and shouldnt..

Remind me, who are we talking about?

quinsforever wrote:agree that playing for the lions in the SH is probably a better option than a depleted national touring side for everyone. but i dont think anything beats winning at twickenham or millenium stadium for your national side.

if the english team is to reach its potential, they need to show much more pride and less paid professionalism when they don the jersey. we could certainly learn something from the almost everyone else in that regard i think.

2 very good points actually, I don't know anyone who ever grew up hoping to win for the lions, we all pretended we were kicking the goal to win at Twickers.

2ndly, wouldn't you say France are suffering more with a lack of pride than us? You can hardly say we are lacking in passion, we are just restructuring, and have had a number of injuries who's replacements are in early phases of their developments (ie Vunipola's, Launchbury, Farell etc). We are building toward 2015 remember.

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:agree that playing for the lions in the SH is probably a better option than a depleted national touring side for everyone. but i dont think anything beats winning at twickenham or millenium stadium for your national side.

if the english team is to reach its potential, they need to show much more pride and less paid professionalism when they don the jersey. we could certainly learn something from the almost everyone else in that regard i think.

2 very good points actually, I don't know anyone who ever grew up hoping to win for the lions, we all pretended we were kicking the goal to win at Twickers.

2ndly, wouldn't you say France are suffering more with a lack of pride than us? You can hardly say we are lacking in passion, we are just restructuring, and have had a number of injuries who's replacements are in early phases of their developments (ie Vunipola's, Launchbury, Farell etc). We are building toward 2015 remember.

i am getting a feeling or rapprochement...

france have always had a problem of perceived pride and effort and achieved results.

call me a contrarian, but i think the smartest bet is that france is going to win RWC 2015. man of the tournois gillian galan...

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:agree that playing for the lions in the SH is probably a better option than a depleted national touring side for everyone. but i dont think anything beats winning at twickenham or millenium stadium for your national side.

if the english team is to reach its potential, they need to show much more pride and less paid professionalism when they don the jersey. we could certainly learn something from the almost everyone else in that regard i think.

2 very good points actually, I don't know anyone who ever grew up hoping to win for the lions, we all pretended we were kicking the goal to win at Twickers.

2ndly, wouldn't you say France are suffering more with a lack of pride than us? You can hardly say we are lacking in passion, we are just restructuring, and have had a number of injuries who's replacements are in early phases of their developments (ie Vunipola's, Launchbury, Farell etc). We are building toward 2015 remember.

agreed. lions is about two things...getting picked for it (best of 4N) and having a shot at a series win/grudgefest in SH. nothing to do with pride in the jersey. fans are foremost country fans, second club fans, third lions fans. but from a touring perspective, i, like most NH fans would probably be a lions fan - what a great environment to tour in, and also have a 40/60 shot at winning.

A Lions tour in one of the best environments to tour in, there is always a little bit of National bias and banter even more so this year what with the BOD affair but at the end of the day everyone I met and talked to whilst in Melbourne and Sydney wanted the Lions to win and win at all costs.

bedfordwelsh wrote:A Lions tour in one of the best environments to tour in, there is always a little bit of National bias and banter even more so this year what with the BOD affair but at the end of the day everyone I met and talked to whilst in Melbourne and Sydney wanted the Lions to win and win at all costs.

But would any of them sacrifice a Grand slam or world cup for their nation for as series win?

Probably not butters but there are still ways to enjoy the win. Its like saying would anyone sacrifice a 6N win for a death of a family member- hardly- because one is closer to home than the other. Doesnt necessarily mean it aint a good thing.

butterfingers wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:A Lions tour in one of the best environments to tour in, there is always a little bit of National bias and banter even more so this year what with the BOD affair but at the end of the day everyone I met and talked to whilst in Melbourne and Sydney wanted the Lions to win and win at all costs.

But would any of them sacrifice a Grand slam or world cup for their nation for as series win?

everyone has different goals. eng fans focus for the most part on RWC victory. 3 finals and 1 victory is why. ire/wal/sco/ita focuses on 6N. they have not previously had the self belief to set their sights on RWC as it has seemed unachievable. maybe wales are beginning to believe for 2015, who know. ire/sco/ita zippo chance. france different rules apply - who knows what their fans want.

NZ and SA want to win every game and have the self belief to aim for that. Of course that does not mean that they can achieve that.

Traveling to NZ and SA is a hard task. England came away with a draw and two losses against SA and face NZ next June. Of course England players dream of a series win in those countries but history shows it's an intimidating peak to climb. A series win in Australia is not a common event either but being part of that must be a special feeling for many players. If the Lions played every year the rose tinted glasses would come off and players would be more in tune with the national unions. I think what is special about the Lions is that it's a rare event. That's where the pride comes in feeling part of something that doesn't happen often. Playing for your country or region has more personal connection to it. But they are different things and should be treated as such. The problem is they all come under the rugby banner and we're supposed to choose the pinnacle out of all of them.

The scarcity factor in the Lions is its usp so far as I view it.
But I'd prefer from an English perpective to recreate national tours (albeit being similarly by necessity, curtailed) of rotating the tours through the big three (say four divisional matches and three tests) in the autumn complemented by another, shorter PI/Argentine one in the summer one in RWC years (either home or away - dependent more or less on the hemisphere of the RWC host country).

Similarly short tours to the big three by rotation in the summer.

Let the Celtic Lions continue those tours if they want.

And the

VietGwentRevisited wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:They do Cyril..and shouldnt..

Remind me, who are we talking about?

I was refering to Taylormans quote that only the lions have come close to beating a SH team.

I was merely reminding him that Scotland beat Australia last summer in Australia and gave the Boks a right good go down there this summer....

Cyril merely commented that Scotland are always forgotten to which i agreed they always seem to be...

The Lions don't just play one game though which Scotland invariably do against the big SH 3. Which is to say they are largely forgotten in that they aren't seen as a viable series opponent. Which judging by their one-off performances seems highly unfair. Much like their Lions representation. But that just adds to the dark horse new dawn mystique I guess.

Touring with the Lions excluding those from Eire used to be about representing your country. When I grew up we still saw it as test rugby, we sang GSTQ... in fact we used to sing that with Scotland too.

With its revamp as the British and Irish lions its no longer the case and now its built on the history of the tour, the heritage etc.

A great honour for any home nation player but now more akin to being called to the bar, being nominated to some prestigious club etc which is I'm sure people would be proud of... but its not the same as representing your country.

If a player turned round and said I feel prouder playing for Glasgow than I do Scotland, would everyone understand and agree with that? When it is the Olympics and it is a GB & NI team, is there not the support and pride in that team? Or do you just think Jo Bloggs isn't England so I don't really care about him?

Unfortunately I have never been in that position to be able to represent my country or the Lions, but to me the Lions in its own little 4 year bubble, is as big as or bigger than representing my country - I am representing my nation. Maybe it is a generation thing - that younger people see themselves as English/Scottish/Welsh/N Irish rather than British? But as I started, after that do you see yourself as Cornish/Northumbrian rather than English?

Im from North Shields first, then Newcastle, then England and then im British. But thats rugby. I would be proud to play for all those teams.

I couldnt say the same about football circles...where we are classed as a small town in Scotland.....i never watch the England games anymore...

At last.

Well said Tom Youngs.

Well I'm Irish....

....and in a battle for my soul Lions V Ireland?

Country every time...by a country mile.

If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

Lord Dowlais, i have never been anything but honest about the Lions. They deserved the most people in the squad as the best team and most settled team.

I have never been anti the lions.

Your comment annoyed me because i am hugely proud of Britain as a whole. Comparing sporting rivalry to serious matters in British and World current affairs is pretty poor.

Sport allows for good hearted rivalry ...war doesnt!

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

For me the Lions is about bringing the best from all four nations every 4 years and building a team, the final numbers from each Country mean little to me. But nothing would beat representing my Country, If I had a choice of a Lions series or 30 caps for my Country I'd take the 30 caps.

Cyril wrote:Interesting that Youngs comes out with this comment just before an England international rather than the 1st Lions Test

Seriously though, it's up to the individual which they feel more passionate about or who they are prouder to represent. Just because the Lions is perceived as a 'higher' level than Home Nations international rugby it doesn't necessarily mean it's viewed with more reverence by all players.

Many Lions trot out the 'it's the highest level of rugby' and 'the biggest honour' but equally I'm sure there are many that agree with Tom. Also, I've heard talk that some Irish players value representing their province over Ireland though I don't have anything to back that up. Irish fans?

It's the same with supporters too. Some feel more of an affinity to 'club' rugby over international because it represents their locality. Some people just aren't 'into' the Lions.

Different strokes.

Irish fans will say they value their province more (I've said it the past) but they don't really mean it. That is said out of pure frustration from the poor performances of the past and the anger towards Kidney. Come 6n time we all want Ireland to win more than anything.

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

...and if some of us aren't and weren't British, we'd be Irish.  
You're so very blinkered in your patriotic role call of military honour and chants of "we're all BRITISH ain't we!!!!!".  

We ain't.  

And that someone like you would gloss over the fact, in your litany of bitter swipes directed at treasonable gutter-sniping unbelievers, enforces my idea (every four years) that some of you do actually think The Lions virtually 'Team UK' in all but name.  

So be it, and to paraphrase Portnoys above:  "Let the British Lions continue those tours if they want".  I'm easy with that.

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

complete and utter nonsense. RWC is without question the pinnacle of rugby achievement. Lions tours are so popular in the modern day because they generate enormous traveling following in the SH every 4 years and are a wonderful atmosphere and festival of rugby. and there is great kudos in being picked. i would cheer the lions the same whether there were 1 or 10 englishmen starting on the pitch. i will just never cheer the lions as much as england playing in the knockout stages of RWC. and i bet you most english fans feel likewise.

i see that you, on the other hand, regard the lion achievement this year as the crowning glory because its the first victory by an almost welsh side against australia in australia since 1969. it is you, not everyone else that is waving the national bias flag.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

...and if some of us aren't and weren't British, we'd be Irish.  
You're so very blinkered in your patriotic role call of military honour and chants of "we're all BRITISH ain't we!!!!!".  

We ain't.  

And that someone like you would gloss over the fact, in your litany of bitter swipes directed at treasonable gutter-sniping unbelievers, enforces my idea (every four years) that some of you do actually think The Lions virtually 'Team UK' in all but name.
So be it, and to paraphrase Portnoys above:  "Let the British Lions continue those tours if they want".  I'm easy with that.

SF, there really was no reason for you to speak like that, I am not taking bitter swipes at anybody, the LIONS as I have constantly called them on this thread would be nothing without the Irish, Willie John McBride is one of my favourite Lions of all time, and I have sat down at many a dinner and listened to his stories, feck I have even hung on every word that Gareth Edwards has praised on the man, he is a giant in the rugby world, I am just fed up to the back teeth with everybody on here who will take any chance to rubbish the Lions and what they have achieved, I would have cheered BOD on just as much as I cheered Jamie Roberts on if he played during the final test, just because the win was with a majority of Welsh men, it should not deprive the Irish,English or Scottish of any celebrations for our win, in 1997 the Lions tour of SA there were a majority of English, but I was watching every game hoping beyond all hope that we would beat them, and when Matt Dawson scored that try in the first test I was jumping around like a mad man, so why there is so much parochialism when on here when it comes to the Lions is just beyond me, we won, lets enjoy it.

quinsforever wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

complete and utter nonsense. RWC is without question the pinnacle of rugby achievement. Lions tours are so popular in the modern day because they generate enormous traveling following in the SH every 4 years and are a wonderful atmosphere and festival of rugby. and there is great kudos in being picked. i would cheer the lions the same whether there were 1 or 10 englishmen starting on the pitch. i will just never cheer the lions as much as england playing in the knockout stages of RWC. and i bet you most english fans feel likewise.

i see that you, on the other hand, regard the lion achievement this year as the crowning glory because its the first victory by an almost welsh side against australia. it is you, not everyone else that is waving the national bias flag.

FFS, I was not like that in 1997 when it was mostly English, and if you would rather cherr England then fair enough, that is your thing, but lets not rubbish the Lions on here anymore, there are too many people on here who are quick to rubbish them just becuase they did not feel they had the representation they think they should have, but gues what ? We won, so instead of being all anti Lions lets just celebrate that as a nation,Ireland as well, we achieved something good.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If we want to put things into perspective, lets put the real issues about the Lions into perspective, most of the jibes against the Lions are from people who feel aggrieved about it because there were not enough people from their own country in the test side, just because it was heavily swayed towards the Welsh there are people on here crying bloody murder and that the Lions should be no more, until people start to admit their national bias towards the Lions then the whole argument is a non starter, so lets get this all we are not British nonsense out of the way and peel the layers off, and just admit, if it were 10 English men in the test side the English would not be behaving like this, if the demi god that is BOD was not dropped the Irish would not be behaving like this, and if the Scots had more representation then they would not be behaving like this, it is all sad really because the LIONS should be the pinnacle of all our rugby and even when we win, there are still people being bitches about it.

...and if some of us aren't and weren't British, we'd be Irish.  
You're so very blinkered in your patriotic role call of military honour and chants of "we're all BRITISH ain't we!!!!!".  

We ain't.  

And that someone like you would gloss over the fact, in your litany of bitter swipes directed at treasonable gutter-sniping unbelievers, enforces my idea (every four years) that some of you do actually think The Lions virtually 'Team UK' in all but name.  

So be it, and to paraphrase Portnoys above:  "Let the British Lions continue those tours if they want".  I'm easy with that.

Personally I'd have no objection if an English player chose a Lions tour over an England tour of one of the big three.
Both would be tours. Both would be relevant. Both would be professional and both would be essential viewing for keen RU fans - English or not.

It's just that in these professional days, the Lions are not my cup of tea any more. More like one of those stupid Starbucks thingies where you can order a latte or a skinny or whatever when deep down you'd just like to ask for a nice mug of coffee.

I must be in a minority, but personally I am not, nor have ever been, overly keen on the Lions.  It is a lovely idea that all the home nations can come together and take on one of the big boys in their own back yard.  However at the same time, and it could just be me, but isn't the whole idea somewhat patronising, it is almost like saying "the four of you are so cack you can't come here and stand a chance on your own, you had better team up and see if you can stand a chance!!".

Also how come people get so up tight about wanting to call themselves British?  Do people ever get so anal about classing tehmselves as European, and lets face it IMO its the same thing, a group of nations.

But Aus were rubbish under Robbie Deans, the 2013 Lions should have won 3-0.

SA 1997 was different as SA were RWC champions and were heavy favourites I also think there was a fair balance of Nations in the Lions Test teams unlike the Welsh biased Gatland teams in 2013.

Scrumpy wrote:But Aus were rubbish under Robbie Deans, the 2013 Lions should have won 3-0.

SA 1997 was different as SA were RWC champions and were heavy favourites I also think there was a fair balance of Nations in the Lions Test teams unlike the Welsh biased Gatland teams in 2013.

 
 
And in that one sentence alone, you have proved my point.

I thought you would like that

But in truth the 1997 Lions Test teams weren't really English biased were they!

Gatland used the Lions tour to give his Welsh players a chance to develop against SH opposition, which is just the wrong mindset for the coach of the B+I Lions to have and goes agaisnt the spirit of the Lions, IHMO!

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

It's just that in these professional days, the Lions are not my cup of tea any more. More like one of those stupid Starbucks thingies where you can order a latte or a skinny or whatever when deep down you'd just like to ask for a nice mug of coffee.

I get you, Portnoy; - irrelevant and therefore give it to the 'Celts'.
I know what you mean. It's the very reason I say let the British have it. Too much other stuff to think about and plan for at a National level in the Professional age.

1997 Lions in the 1st fifteen, that I can remember off the top of my head:-
 
Hill
Dalaglyo
Johnson
Leanard (I think)
Dawson
Bently
Guscott
Tony Underwood
Will Greenwood
Neil Back
 
They were all in the starting team
 
Tim Stimpson
Nick Beal
Paul Greyson
Austin Healey
Graham Rowntree
Mark Regan
Simon Shaw
Tim Rodber
 
They were the others on tour, so out of 34 people 18 were English, so yes there was a lot of English representation there.

1st Test
15 Jenkins; 14. Evans 13. Gibbs, 12 Guscott, 11. Tait 10. Townsend, 9 Dawson. 1. Smith, 2 Wood 3. Wallace, 4. Johnson (capt), 5. Davidson; 6. Dallaglio, 7. Hill, 8. Rodber

2nd Test
15 Jenkins; 14. Bentley 13. Gibbs, 12 Guscott, 11. Tait 10. Townsend, 9 Dawson. 1. Smith, 2 Wood 3. Wallace, 4. Johnson (capt), 5. Davidson; 6. Dallaglio, 7. Hill, 8. Rodber

3rd Test
15 Jenkins; 14 Bentley, 13 Gibbs, 12 Guscott, 11.Underwood; 10. Catt, 9. Dawson; 1 Smith, 2 Regan, 3 Wallace 4 Johnson (capt), 5 Davidson, 6 Wainwright, 7 Back, 8 Dallaglio

6 english in the starting xv of the first test fyi - which was the bigger win for the lions so presumably their best xv:

guscott
dawson
johnson (c)
dallaglio
hill
rodber

And they should drop the 'B&I' bit imo if they must continue.

But I agree with you, SF. Certainly England, Wales and Ireland shouldn't need to be propped up by each other's HNs to compete on an equal footing.

1st test

3 Welsh
3 Scottish
3 Irish
6 English

2nd Test

2 Welsh
3 Irish
3 Scottish
7 English

3rd Test

2 Welsh
2 Scottish
2 irish
9 English

And dont forget we have not included subs, so each test had a majority of English, perhaps the no of English in the final test is the reason why we did not whitewash them. 

quinsforever wrote:6 english in the starting xv of the first test fyi - which was the bigger win for the lions so presumably their best xv:

guscott
dawson
johnson (c)
dallaglio
hill
rodber

Also the coach wasn't picking the team to give his boys a chance to gain some experience against SH opposition, and to get one up on a legend of the game. (Poor BOD)

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
But I agree with you, SF. Certainly England, Wales and Ireland shouldn't need to be propped up by each other's HNs to compete on an equal footing.

I agree, time to move on.

Scrumpy wrote:Also the coach wasn't picking the team to give his boys a chance to gain some experience against SH opposition, and to get one up on a legend of the game. (Poor BOD)

Really?

The results this tour did speak for themselves, the first test we should have lost, the second test we did lose and the third test we won. So not too sure that people can claim BOD was pooped on, or that it the coach picked the team "to get on up on a legend of the game".

Also seeing as Neil Jenkins is a legend of the game (highest point score for a fair while, whilst with a poor national team to boot), and was stuck at fullback on the '97 tour you could argue that the coach did get one over on him.  

much less chance of hints of bias if the coaching staff is lead by someone not currently involved in one of the international teams (or if they are Scottish). 97 wasn't lead by an English coach, but it is interesting to see the English representation go up over the course of the three tests.

When you have the current Welsh head coach, a Welsh captain and a very large contingent of Welsh players (some of whom were out of form and/or injured) its hard to argue against a Welsh bias. They could easily have gone for a more inclusive image by, for instance, selecting POC as captain without changing the playing selections.

As for BOD vs JD2 -JD2 had some great tour moments but BOD was also playing well and defying the years. The argument seems to be so polarized by nationality and its not worth returning to. Whatever Gatland's reasons it had next to no bearing on the result of the third test. We did not win because he chose JD2 over BOD.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:... seeing as Neil Jenkins is a legend of the game (highest point score for a fair while, whilst with a poor national team to boot), and was stuck at fullback on the '97 tour you could argue that the coach did get one over on him.  

Thus the trick was repeated in reverse order with Halfpenny? - who was directed to help the Lions fly-halves out of their usual duties (and honours accruing from) ?

 

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:... seeing as Neil Jenkins is a legend of the game (highest point score for a fair while, whilst with a poor national team to boot), and was stuck at fullback on the '97 tour you could argue that the coach did get one over on him.  

Thus the trick was repeated in reverse order with Halfpenny? - who was directed to help the Lions fly-halves out of their usual duties (and honours accruing from)  ?

Ah, and who was it who help Tuppance to steal the goal kicking glories from their rightful owners, none other than Jinks, out for revenge after not sending Crhismas cards to Gregor Townsend or Mike Catt for 16 years. It all adds up at last.