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Unfulfilled potential

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Post by azania Thu 12 May 2011, 10:12 pm

Which boxers had it all and didn't get too much out of it?

We all know about the Tyson situation where his star fell almost as quickly as it shone.

Any other boxers who seemed to have it all but blew it away.

Aaron Pryor couldn't cope with his demons and didn't capitalise on his wins over Arguello. He had it all. Tremendous work rate, great conditioning, highly skilled, fast hands with a good dig plus an iron chin.

Riddick Bowe is another obvious example.

Although they were world champs, they could have been legends as opposed to footnotes.

Any others.

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Post by BALTIMORA Thu 12 May 2011, 10:18 pm

Bit morbid perhaps, but people like Gerald Mclellan spring to mind. Different reasons for his career not fulfilling his potential, but still makes you wonder.

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Post by azania Thu 12 May 2011, 10:22 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Bit morbid perhaps, but people like Gerald Mclellan spring to mind. Different reasons for his career not fulfilling his potential, but still makes you wonder.

Yep. You're right. Very morbid. Shocked

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Post by BALTIMORA Thu 12 May 2011, 10:41 pm

Well it's like Johnny Owen-his parents were told that there was no way of knowing (with procedures of the time) that he'd die as he did. Supposing he'd not suffered that fate, how would he now be seen? Not saying he was a world better, but he's become a kind of tragic hero, where instead he may have been a solid but unspectacular British fighter.

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Post by azania Thu 12 May 2011, 10:49 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Well it's like Johnny Owen-his parents were told that there was no way of knowing (with procedures of the time) that he'd die as he did. Supposing he'd not suffered that fate, how would he now be seen? Not saying he was a world better, but he's become a kind of tragic hero, where instead he may have been a solid but unspectacular British fighter.

Even more morbid. Quit whilst your behind mate. angel

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Post by licence_007 Thu 12 May 2011, 10:50 pm

Naseem surely is worth a mention in this kind of topic?

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Post by azania Thu 12 May 2011, 10:54 pm

licence_007 wrote:Naseem surely is worth a mention in this kind of topic?

I thought of him. But he reigned for 6 years and beat all except for MAB. No shame in that.

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Post by licence_007 Thu 12 May 2011, 10:56 pm

azania wrote:
licence_007 wrote:Naseem surely is worth a mention in this kind of topic?

I thought of him. But he reigned for 6 years and beat all except for MAB. No shame in that.

Definitely no shame, yet surely he had so much more to offer?


There's another British boxer that I just can't seem to remember either...this will annoy me.

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Post by BALTIMORA Thu 12 May 2011, 11:37 pm

Audley?

And yeah Az, I know it's morbid but when the smallest action can have such massive and far-reaching repercussions I just find the pondering somewhat fascinating. Agreed, I wouldn't include Naz. He had a great crack at it, hardly p*ssed it all up the wall.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu 12 May 2011, 11:40 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Audley?

And yeah Az, I know it's morbid but when the smallest action can have such massive and far-reaching repercussions I just find the pondering somewhat fascinating. Agreed, I wouldn't include Naz. He had a great crack at it, hardly p*ssed it all up the wall.

Naz never acheived his full potential given how much he did achieve, it sort of shows how much ability he did have.

Going for a bit of an old won here but Benny Lynch he was a great world champion who was finished by the age of 26.
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Post by licence_007 Thu 12 May 2011, 11:44 pm

Yeah, I'm not saying Naz peed it up against the wall, I just think he could have done a lot more.


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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 12 May 2011, 11:47 pm

licence_007 wrote:Yeah, I'm not saying Naz peed it up against the wall, I just think he could have done a lot more.


Could he?

What could he have done?

Naz reach his potential was the best he could be for a while but then it faded, earlier than most boxers but even at his best, could he really have dominated the featherweight scene or stepped up and done anything at superfeather?

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu 12 May 2011, 11:48 pm

Same here he stopped preparing properly and believed his own hype to much. If you look at the superfeatherweight division just after Naz retired their was a lot more great fights out their for him.
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Post by licence_007 Thu 12 May 2011, 11:50 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
licence_007 wrote:Yeah, I'm not saying Naz peed it up against the wall, I just think he could have done a lot more.


Could he?

What could he have done?

Naz reach his potential was the best he could be for a while but then it faded, earlier than most boxers but even at his best, could he really have dominated the featherweight scene or stepped up and done anything at superfeather?

Well I think we'll never really know. If he was able to train better, didn't miss his family as much and whatever else it was that was playing on his mind, maybe he could have taken on more big fight. Whether he would win them is another question I suppose since I'm not sure if Naz ever did reach his full potential or not.

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 12 May 2011, 11:51 pm

Naz is a bit like JFK, his early death and his early retirement made them seem greater than they actually were.

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Post by licence_007 Thu 12 May 2011, 11:53 pm

Could certainly be the case, D4. I'm not gonna argue his corner, just thought it was a name that could fit the criteria.

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 12 May 2011, 11:55 pm

licence_007 wrote:Could certainly be the case, D4. I'm not gonna argue his corner, just thought it was a name that could fit the criteria.

I sort of agree with you, but I can see the other side of the coin where if he continued his legacy could have been destroyed by all the defeats just waiting to happen.

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Post by licence_007 Thu 12 May 2011, 11:57 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
licence_007 wrote:Could certainly be the case, D4. I'm not gonna argue his corner, just thought it was a name that could fit the criteria.

I sort of agree with you, but I can see the other side of the coin where if he continued his legacy could have been destroyed by all the defeats just waiting to happen.

Definitely. Like I said before, there was no guarantees he would have won a lot of the big fights, but we'll never know, and I'm not sure if we can ever really definitively talk about a 'peak' Naseem since it's unclear whether he ever did peak.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu 12 May 2011, 11:57 pm

If Naz had of stayed around he could have fought Morales, Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Casamayor, Gatti and a remathc with Barerra if he had been professional he could have had some big nights and earned even more than he did.
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Post by BALTIMORA Fri 13 May 2011, 12:00 am

prettyboykev wrote:If Naz had of stayed around he could have fought Morales, Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Casamayor, Gatti and a remathc with Barerra if he had been professional he could have had some big nights and earned even more than he did.

...and what, blow it all on fast cars? Whistle

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Post by D4thincarnation Fri 13 May 2011, 12:01 am

prettyboykev wrote:If Naz had of stayed around he could have fought Morales, Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Casamayor, Gatti and a remathc with Barerra if he had been professional he could have had some big nights and earned even more than he did.

He probably would have had his butt handed to him as well in most of those fights.

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Post by Sugar Boy Sweetie Fri 13 May 2011, 12:02 am

Riddick Bowe? I thought he had the lot but couldnt stay disciplined with his weight and let his HW career go down the toilet post Holyfield. Him and lennox couldve and shouldve fought at least once, Bowe could potentially have been the man at heavy in the '90's but he didnt live up to his potential, big shame IMO.
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Post by licence_007 Fri 13 May 2011, 12:04 am

I know it's a stretch for 'had it all'. Olandir Solis looked like he might make waves at some point though.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 13 May 2011, 12:05 am

Probably Balti how do you think he would have got on against the fighters I metioned if he was on top form?

Think he would deal with Gatti and Casamayor easily. Morales, Barerra, Marquez are 50/50 fights imo. He would have had a better chance against Pac but would lose to him in a series but not a whitewash. Just to open for Floyd loses by wide UD.
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Post by HumanWindmill Fri 13 May 2011, 7:12 am

First ones I'd think of would be John Conteh, Kirkland Laing and Jack Sharkey.

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Post by azania Fri 13 May 2011, 9:44 am

HumanWindmill wrote:First ones I'd think of would be John Conteh, Kirkland Laing and Jack Sharkey.

Great shout on Conteh and Laing. But with Conteh, he was in at the time od Saad Muhammed who I thought was better than him. As for Laing, the man had it all except for a brain. I have heard many stories as how he was pulled off women literally to go fight. Apparently against Buck Smith he had to be taken away from a blues party the night before where certain funny cigarettes were smoked.

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Post by captain carrantuohil Fri 13 May 2011, 10:10 am

Conteh pre-dated Saad as champion by more than four years. The fact that a past-his-peak Conteh was able to go to the States and almost beat Matthew shows how good he was. His "performance" in their second fight, when Conteh was, to all intents and purposes, drunk, shows what a spectacular waster he could be.

The great waste with Conteh came between the summer of 75, when he was only a few months into his championship reign, and 1978. During that period, which should have been his golden age, Conteh contrived to fight just twice, get stripped of his title and spend far more time in night clubs and bars than he ever did in gyms. He could have been Britain's best ever fighter, I've little doubt about that, and despite what he did achieve, he will always rank for me as the most unfulfilled talent that this country has ever produced.

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Post by azania Fri 13 May 2011, 11:44 am

I'd also add Greg Page to the list. He had it all but the motivation required. Ditto Dokes, Witherspoon and Tubbs. If they had fulfilled their potentials, we would be talking about the great classics round robin fights between them.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 May 2011, 11:45 am

Page had a lot going for him I agree.

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Post by captain carrantuohil Fri 13 May 2011, 11:47 am

Pinklon Thomas as well, azania. Complete loafers, the lot of them.

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Post by azania Fri 13 May 2011, 11:51 am

captain carrantuohil wrote:Pinklon Thomas as well, azania. Complete loafers, the lot of them.

I'd give Thomas the benefit of the doubt seeing as he was a complete smack head (recovering and admitted so).

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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 May 2011, 11:52 am

Most of them were using, cocaine at least.

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Post by mckay1402 Fri 13 May 2011, 11:59 am

this is going to seem like an odd suggestion but I'm going to say Eubank after the Watson fight. before that he could finish opponents off easily and afterwards he never wanted to punch to his full capacity or go in to finish the job. Who knows where he could have got to had he not lost his killer instinct?
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Post by bhb001 Fri 13 May 2011, 12:02 pm

Some one said Audley earlier. This is more of a case of over achievement as he should never have got a crack at the world title!!

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Post by 88Chris05 Fri 13 May 2011, 12:03 pm

Max Baer and Jack Sharkey are the stand outs from the Heavyweights, for me. Baer's loss to Braddock is an absolutely unforgivable shocker - people get the idea in to their heads that, to beat Baer, Braddock produced the type of towering performance that Douglas did against Tyson. He didn't. Baer clowned that fight away and while Braddock's performance was still solid and praise-worthy, Baer really shouldn't have been troubled by him.

At the lower weights, I'd go with Michael Nunn, Wilfred Benitez (how someone with that talent didn't go on to become a nailed-on top twenty pound for pound boxer of all time I'll never know) and perhaps Willie Pastrano, too.
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Post by Rowley Fri 13 May 2011, 12:30 pm

From a more recent vintage Francesco Bojado takes some topping. Was at one point the hottest young star in the top rank stable and tipped by most to become a P4P guy and the guy to take over DLH's status as the crossover star in the states. Looked the part in the ring aw well but started to believe his own press and cutting corners in the gym before getting smacked around by a fading star (Jesse James Leija I believe) who was meant to be there to provide a name only.

Believe he attmepted a comeback but lost to Steve Forbes. Pity because he was often shown on undercards over here and he definitely had talent

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Post by Bob Fri 13 May 2011, 12:36 pm

Jermaine Taylor....even BHop thought he was the future.

Also Guzman really p1sses me off with his squandered talent.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Fri 13 May 2011, 1:27 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:If Naz had of stayed around he could have fought Morales, Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Casamayor, Gatti and a remathc with Barerra if he had been professional he could have had some big nights and earned even more than he did.

He probably would have had his butt handed to him as well in most of those fights.

The Hamed who beat Robinson loses to Mayweather out of those fighters, could and should have gone on to dominate the featherweight division, Morales, Marquez, Casamayor and Gatti in particular would have struggled to cope with his power which was second only to Saddler in the divisions history.

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Post by Rowley Fri 13 May 2011, 1:33 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:If Naz had of stayed around he could have fought Morales, Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Casamayor, Gatti and a remathc with Barerra if he had been professional he could have had some big nights and earned even more than he did.

He probably would have had his butt handed to him as well in most of those fights.

The Hamed who beat Robinson loses to Mayweather out of those fighters, could and should have gone on to dominate the featherweight division, Morales, Marquez, Casamayor and Gatti in particular would have struggled to cope with his power which was second only to Saddler in the divisions history.

With you Atom, think he loses to Mayweather but had Naz remained focus he is not an easy nights work for anyone in featherweight history. People forget how good he actually was. Had almost superhuman power and got shots off from ridiculous angles. Couple that with decent stamina, a style it is almost impossible to replicate in sparring and unusual but under rated defensive skills early in his career and the idea that a focussed and fit Naz is an easy nights work for anyone is ridiculous.

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Post by Union Cane Fri 13 May 2011, 1:35 pm

Jeff Lacy anyone?

Did he have it beaten (slapped) out of him by JC, or did he never have it in the first place?
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Post by mckay1402 Fri 13 May 2011, 1:43 pm

do me a favour. JC didn't slap Jeff Lacy. he utterly schooled him in boxing. the last few rounds were embarassing and only after the fight did people start saying that Lacy was a nobody.
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Post by Union Cane Fri 13 May 2011, 1:46 pm

mckay1402 wrote:do me a favour. JC didn't slap Jeff Lacy. he utterly schooled him in boxing. the last few rounds were embarassing and only after the fight did people start saying that Lacy was a nobody.

That was my point?

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Post by mckay1402 Fri 13 May 2011, 2:03 pm

ah I see...they were sarcastic brackets. Apologies
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Post by sittingringside Fri 13 May 2011, 2:35 pm

I think Herol graham had a special talent that was never fully realised. Michael Nunn is another one that springs to mind, he could make it look easy in the ring at times.

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Post by Gerflagenflople Fri 13 May 2011, 2:39 pm

Probably a bit cliche after the recent movie but how about Dicky Eklund, he seemed to have had enough to at least have given a decent go at it...

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Post by Fists of Fury Fri 13 May 2011, 2:43 pm

I think Naz against Pacquaio would have been an absolute humdinger, and a real pick em'. I'm with the consensus that Mayweather would probably have too much defensively for Naz to get around, and with his accuracy it would just be a bad style clash for Naz who did leave himself off balance and open to counters at times. Naz in all probability beats the others mentioned, when fully focussed, of course!

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Post by Young_Towzer Fri 13 May 2011, 5:33 pm

I think Naz against Pacquaio would have been an absolute humdinger, and a real pick em'. I'm with the consensus that Mayweather would probably have too much defensively for Naz to get around, and with his accuracy it would just be a bad style clash for Naz who did leave himself off balance and open to counters at times. Naz in all probability beats the others mentioned, when fully focussed, of course!
......................
Morales - Nah
Marquez - Could do but could be countered and outboxed
Pacquiao - Pacquiao wins UD
Gatti - comfortable stoppage for Naz
Casamayor - Naz wins comfortably
Mayweather - Mayweather wins UD

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Fri 13 May 2011, 7:41 pm

rowley wrote:
The Mighty Atom wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:If Naz had of stayed around he could have fought Morales, Marquez, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Casamayor, Gatti and a remathc with Barerra if he had been professional he could have had some big nights and earned even more than he did.

He probably would have had his butt handed to him as well in most of those fights.

The Hamed who beat Robinson loses to Mayweather out of those fighters, could and should have gone on to dominate the featherweight division, Morales, Marquez, Casamayor and Gatti in particular would have struggled to cope with his power which was second only to Saddler in the divisions history.

With you Atom, think he loses to Mayweather but had Naz remained focus he is not an easy nights work for anyone in featherweight history. People forget how good he actually was. Had almost superhuman power and got shots off from ridiculous angles. Couple that with decent stamina, a style it is almost impossible to replicate in sparring and unusual but under rated defensive skills early in his career and the idea that a focussed and fit Naz is an easy nights work for anyone is ridiculous.


It seems almost fashionable on here for any british to be criminally under rated, the worst of the them is always considered but never the best which they do with any potential opponent. He lost to Barrera fair and square but even that fight gets lost in translation somewhere, it's always talked about as a one sided schooling which it was not, had it 115-112 with the point deduction which is enough to suggest to me that Hamed could and should have beaten him.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 13 May 2011, 8:10 pm

Zab Judah?

He looked awesome up until Tszyu and never really looked the same again after he was stopped.
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