Building The Perfect Tennis Player Part 2 - Best Forehand

First topic message reminder :

Here we go folks!

For me this will be probably the most argued category out of the bunch. So why not get out of the way whilst it is quiet on the tennis front. Simply who has the best forehand? Is it Rafa and his banana? The Federer Forehand? How about Lendl? The Sampras monster forehand? How about wristy Del Potro?

I will kick things off just to annoy as I am good like that and you all love it by throwing Andy Murray's FH out there as the best!

Seriously for me the one I like the most....Soderling

Over to you to throw the names in the hat for the vote.

But does he think like a rightie? I mean, he never actually played right handed did he? He just used to have a DBH on both sides and his uncle thought he was left handed. I wouldnt think he knows anymore about being right handed than Moya does about being left handed.

Naturally he is right handed. That to me would suggest that he would best understand the movements and anticipations of righties and being a leftie for me just makes him the complete nightmare.

Nadals forehand looks like a lot is generated from the arm (with the hip and legs as well), and a good portion of it is too, but his topspin gives him the accuracy needed to be consistent.

That all comes from the wrist and is something you will not see in any other players action, its totally unique, yes, there are similarities, but the action is exaggerated and is singular to Rafa.

In the video below, watch his prep for the shot, he will only release the wrist as the ball is about to pass his hand, then the whole thing is unleashed in a matter of a few inches. The roll of the wrist from completely open to closed goes through 270 degrees of travel and is very much a Nadal thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed_c10cRV7o

But this is the slightly new Nadal and his old way was more cramped in the preparation, he still got to the hitting zone in the same shape, but was needing more arm/shoulders to get the same power as now. His elbow is further away from the body these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk

And for all you tennis aficionados.....the BIG difference is......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rl0fwXTrr8

Vive la Différence !

He may be naturally right handed, but he has never played right handed in his life. I dont think thats the case, if Im honest. Otherwise, Carlos Moya would have had the same advantage vs left handers, as should Maria Sharapova

Is Carlos Moya left handed naturally? Is Sharapova left handed naturally?

The big advantage of left hand play is that you mostly play RH players and thus can play every player essentially the same way but they have to think and reverse the way they play you. This will be less the case now that people are used to playing Nadal but Nadal would face the same disadvantage (minor one though) against another southpaw

"Sharapova is ambidextrous and played left-handed until she was ten years old, before deciding to play right-handed. Although she almost always employs a right-handed forehand and double-handed backhand, she has one of the most accurate double-handed backhand shots and is known to occasionally hit left-handed shots as a result of her early left-handed training."

Her biography website

Sharapova is naturally a left handed tennis player. she still plays ping pong left handed

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vAhPZvsx84&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9vAhPZvsx84

Unlike Nadal, who never actually played right handed, she would be a perfect example.

I often have wondered how that affects his play... he thinks like a  right hander because thats how the brain works .. yet he delivers with his left. Does that cause  the banana forehand?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Is that relevant? The fact is that it is (and was made to be) left handed. If Fed had chosen a DHBH their match up might have been different too

I'd only say it was relevant in the sense that I think the fact it is left-handed adds a few percentage points to its effectiveness.

I think all left-handed players have an inbuilt advantage in that they can play their normal patterns but their opponent is having to adjust. I'd also speculate (although I don't have any stats to prove or disprove) that playing forehand to backhand is an advantage too.

As for Rafa's left-handedness, this is Rafa's explanation:

Q: When you were younger and you switched from hitting with your right hand to your left hand, how did your uncle Toni come up with the idea to try that? And how difficult was it for you at that age to switch from hitting right handed to left handed?
 
Nadal: That never happened. It wasn’t an idea of Uncle Toni and for sure it was impossible to change the right for the left. I started playing tennis with two backhands – playing two hands forehand and two hands backhand. And one day had to start playing but we didn’t decide I have to play with the left or the right.

The natural thing for me was to play with the left. I play futbol with the left all my life. . .The feeling to give something or take something, I do everything with the right, no? But the feeling for the sport I always have the feeling for the left.

A forehand discussion has veered into ambidexterity.

IIRC, Haase is the opposite of Nadal, naturally left-handed, but plays right-handed.

There are many dual-hand BH and FH players on the Womens side. Morita is the first one that comes to mind. Bartoli, Santoro, ...

Perhaps all the DHBH Male players were discouraged not to use both hands on FH and BH shots.

I suppose the question of dexterity was always going to come up eventually when trying to construct the perfect player.

Im still not sure the hand you play with is as important in tennis as it is in boxing, fencing or cricket for instance. Obviously the backhand playing patterns suit Nadal. But given that the last southpaw world #1 before Nadal was in 1984, I still dont see the advantages as being that great.

laverfan wrote:A forehand discussion has veered into ambidexterity.

IIRC, Haase is the opposite of Nadal, naturally left-handed, but plays right-handed.

There are many dual-hand BH and FH players on the Womens side. Morita is the first one that comes to mind. Bartoli, Santoro, ...

Perhaps all the DHBH Male players were discouraged not to use both hands on FH and BH shots.

Not really LF Rafa is not ambidextrous. Only a person who can use both hands equally is ambidextrous.
Having known such a person it is a sight to behold

Haddie-nuff wrote:

laverfan wrote:A forehand discussion has veered into ambidexterity.

IIRC, Haase is the opposite of Nadal, naturally left-handed, but plays right-handed.

There are many dual-hand BH and FH players on the Womens side. Morita is the first one that comes to mind. Bartoli, Santoro, ...

Perhaps all the DHBH Male players were discouraged not to use both hands on FH and BH shots.

Not really LF Rafa is not ambidextrous. Only a person who can use both hands equally is ambidextrous.
Having known such a person it is a sight to behold

I am ambidextrous which comes from my parents who strangely both are left handed. My brother is right handed. My nephews are left handed. It is weird how the genepool works. I play golf with both right and left handed clubs which is confusing as hell at times I play tennis right handed, though I can serve with the left I am two footed at football. The only thing I can't do is write with both hands.

When I was at College back in ?????? our Principle stood in front of us students who witnessed him writing with both hands on the blackboard ...two different topics for our forthcoming lecture. The class lapsed into what can only be called gobsmacked silence ... we all stood up and as he turned round we applauded him. He stared blank faced and said "thank you class now will you all return to your seats and get to the job in hand! " It was awesome

See now that is impressive

It is an interesting topic, dexterity. Im left handed in everything except throwing and tennis, in which Im ambidextrous, on the forehand wings. My coach made me choose a hand, I chose right handed, because, well everyone in the club was right handed, the drawback was I couldnt serve properly due to the issues I had with timing off the serve, so I switched to left-handed only to find, to my horror, I had no backhand. All those years of playing cricket left handed meant that I had a decent right hand BH, and playing tennis right handed means I can play a nasty switch-hit. But I would love to find out just why I cant play table tennis right handed, or why I can throw a ball right-handed, but not a dart.

All that makes me wonder how long until tennis has a player who can fire forehands off both wings...

That is strange KR. I used to play badminton and my mixed doubles partner played left handed I also used to play ten pin bowling and he was in my team and he bowled right handed. He played darts right handed and table tennis left handed.

One other chap I played badminton with was great as a partner but as an opponent he was a nightmare.. he could play with both hands and never had a back hand he just switched his raquet from one hand to the other.

I bowl (cricket) with my left and bat with my right. Otherwise I am right handed and no-footed

Haddie-nuff wrote:When I was at College back in ?????? our Principle stood in front of us students who witnessed him writing with both hands on the blackboard ...two different topics for our forthcoming lecture. The class lapsed into what can only be called gobsmacked silence ... we all stood up and as he turned round we applauded him. He stared blank faced and said "thank you class now will you all return to your seats and get to the job in hand! " It was awesome

Both hands writing at the same time or one after the other? The latter is amazing, the former is impossible surely?

So what are you saying JM . That I was mistaken, or telling porkies.. The choice is yours.
I know what I saw and my fellow students likewise

I can right a legible sentence simultaneously, but that sounds incredible, Your principle must have touch of genius.

write not right - I need a new smart phone

Jeez, I'm not saying anything, I'm just asking a question (hence the question marks) to clarify, as it wasn't clear which it was. Was it both hands at writing at exactly the same time or one, then the other, then the first one again?
When I say 'impossible' I don't know if it's impossible or not - it just sounds like one of those things you'd have to see to believe.

kingraf wrote:I can right a legible sentence simultaneously, but that sounds incredible, Your principle must have touch of genius.

He actually was too good for the job he did. He was reluctant ever to discuss the matter and seldom if ever demonstrated that skill again. One of his subjects was Chartered Accountancy .. needless to say I failed even to qualify for his lectures

JuliusHMarx wrote:Jeez, I'm not saying anything, I'm just asking a question (hence the question marks) to clarify, as it wasn't clear which it was. Was it both hands at writing at exactly the same time or one, then the other, then the first one again?
When I say 'impossible' I don't know if it's impossible or not - it just sounds like one of those things you'd have to see to believe.

Why do you think we all sat in total silence.. staring at each other .. all looking like we had seen him fly around the room without wings. The most incredible thing was he saw it as normal.. I think he really forgot that he was doing what he had probably done all his life. Looking back now I really remember him as a man who was on a different planet he talked at us rather than to us his lectures went over my head for the most part. Fortunately I was only in his lower band of students.

Aaah Accounting - my God did I suck at that

I'd have had the same reaction regardless of which way he did it.
I'll have to assume it was the simultaneous one, not the one after the other one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWDQhskT0fo

15 minutes ago I'd have said this was impossible, surely, question mark

kingraf wrote:Aaah Accounting - my God did I suck at that

Absolutely ... you have to have a different mindset to everyone else me thinks

JuliusHMarx wrote:I'd have had the same reaction regardless of which way he did it.
I'll have to assume it was the simultaneous one, not the one after the other one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWDQhskT0fo

15 minutes ago I'd have said this was impossible, surely, question mark

Thats exactly what he did two different things at the same time talking and writing and his was far more legible than that... now you see how I have never forgotten it.. and every student stood on their feet and applauded

JuliusHMarx wrote:I'd have had the same reaction regardless of which way he did it.
I'll have to assume it was the simultaneous one, not the one after the other one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWDQhskT0fo

15 minutes ago I'd have said this was impossible, surely, question mark

Its like that Men In Black line :

"1,500 years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

I have been fortunate to see many wonderful things in my lifetime.. but that really is up there with some of the most awesome

kingraf wrote:All that makes me wonder how long until tennis has a player who can fire forehands off both wings...

Giorgio Di Stefani - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_de_Stefani

Just like the chap I played Badminton with .. I have to admit it took a while for me to cotton on that he had no back hand... frustrating or what !!?

Thanks LF - Been a while since, then hasnt it? I suppose its a big risk for a coach to take.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

If you're using winning matches as the basis of "best", then there is only one criteria: whose Forehand maintains its devastation when hitting it under adverse circumstances? Every player on the tour has a good Forehand when they hit it under optimal conditions: feet set, contact point in front, balanced perfectly, inside the court, etc.. But it's when you are in trouble - either on the run or in a negative situation in a rally - that a "best" Forehand really matters. There are very few players in history who had a Forehand that could change the complexion of a rally with just one swing of their racquet on the Forehand side when faced with the adversity of being wrong footed, stretched, running, or under any other less-than-optimum circumstance.

Federer and Nadal have this quality. They can generate more sheer power off the Forehand side when they're on the run - meaning stretched and off balance. Sampras had this same quality, but because he was always going to the net we rarely saw it - but he had it. Before that, Lendl (who is actually The Father of The Modern Game). Graf on the WTA had this same quality. All of these players at their best generate the devastation they have on their Forehands under the least ideal circumstances. There aren't many others who can do that. So that's what should constitute "best".

kingraf wrote:Thanks LF - Been a while since, then hasnt it? I suppose its a big risk for a coach to take.

The speed and power of the current game may never allow that, unless ATP/ITF/WTA change the rules and allow a player to play with both hands concurrently, a racquet in each hand. Perhaps someday!

BTW, I started reading about de Stefani because of his matches with a certain Sir (Mr.) Fred Perry.

Imitation is probably one of the most serious forms of flattery. Has anyone noticed how Djokovics forehand has taken on some of the characteristics of Nadal's? He does that lasso style swing now and didn't always. So the present number one player might just give his vote to Nadal?

I think both Nadal's and Federer's forehands are very effective but I would have to give the accolade of "best" to Nadal. For the same reasons I think his is better than some other forehands that occasionally look devastating. More than any other player once Nadal gets the ball on his forehand he is in control and can dictate play not just hit high risk winners. Occasionally he is so effective at this that it appears that he has the ball on a string.

I would fancy my chances making the challengers if they gave me two racquets... although I dont know how I would actually toss the ball.

hawkeye wrote:Imitation is probably one of the most serious forms of flattery. Has anyone noticed how Djokovics forehand has taken on some of the characteristics of Nadal's? He does that lasso style swing now and didn't always.

I actually think Novak's forehand has dropped this year!

Check out the 2011 forehand (and the calibre of the players he was unloading on)... boy, it was good then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJD3a3Q9FyY

I'm not sure Novak has tried to imitate Rafa's forehand. I don't think it's at all comparable personally. To be fair to Rafa, his FH is completely unique.

I still think I would edge it to Roger though. The forehand may not be as potent as it once was, and it's tough to try and remove the last few years from memory. But watching him unleash in 2006 with what looked like minimum effort... Wow! Inside out, down the line, cross court. And the angles he created.

I think Rafa's may make 2nd place, just ahead of Sampras. But Roger's forehand is not only the best, I think it's the best shot I've ever seen. A liquid whip.

Roger never even looked like he was unleashing. There was no exaggerated movement, no grunt of exertion. All I'd notice was a louder pop on the strings and the ball was suddenly rocketing.

I watched the highlights of his AO07 SF v Roddick today. Some of the angles he found on the forehand are incredible.

Danny is right - the memory does fade about how good that forehand was.

JubbaIsle wrote:
In the video below, watch his prep for the shot, he will only release the wrist as the ball is about to pass his hand, then the whole thing is unleashed in a matter of a few inches. The roll of the wrist from completely open to closed goes through 270 degrees of travel and is very much a Nadal thing.

Stretch shortening cycles!

Watch here...the hold back then whip is prodigious, it's an absolute masterpiece of timing. It doesn't actually take all that much arm strength, his arm is pretty loose all the way through.

It's the danger of watching Federer at the standard he's at now...still a quality player, but it's easy to forget about the footwork, the serve, the forehand as they were.

HM Murdoch wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Imitation is probably one of the most serious forms of flattery. Has anyone noticed how Djokovics forehand has taken on some of the characteristics of Nadal's? He does that lasso style swing now and didn't always.

I actually think Novak's forehand has dropped this year!

Check out the 2011 forehand (and the calibre of the players he was unloading on)... boy, it was good then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJD3a3Q9FyY

Agreed HM, I remember watching his AO SF in 2011 and being utterly gobsmacked by the sheer quality of the forehand. Brutal and precise, relentlessly painting the lines repeatedly. I knew Murray was done for in the final after that display of hitting! And to be fair to him, he kept it up throughout the year. Possibly only denied the calendar slam by a top-form Fed at RG.

Its tight - Federer and Nadal possess my two favorite shots in tennis. Federer with the inside-in, Nadal with the running forehand DTL. Its all down to how you see it.
I see Federer play it and I think, " Wow, I should go outside and try that"

I see Nadal bend it in from ten feet behind the baseline at full tilt, I think
"OH MY GAAWD, unreal"

Federer hitting the makes the game look incredibly simple.... Nadal makes it look beyond the realms of mere mortals. Its like comparing Beethoven with Paul Macca

I meant here

The net clearance on Nadals backhand is a prodigous sight! I know what happens when my backhand clears the net by that much...

kingraf wrote:The net clearance on Nadals backhand is a prodigous sight! I know what happens when my backhand clears the net by that much...

Careful, KR, otherwise you might hear cries of 'MOOOOOON....".