Lancaster Loses Plot

Stuart Lancaster. Care-taker coach. Largely seen as a stable if unspectacular stop gap whilst England courted an international coach of class who wouldn't shudder at the prospect. Possibly Jake White, Eddie Jones or Wayne Smith?

But with a surprise victory over an off-colour All Blacks he found himself in the position of a little known band hitting the #1 spot with a surprise novelty song.  Like the DJ Psy of the rugby world, the Gangnam Style England galloped to an unlikely success over NZ and now Stuart Lancaster finds himself in the unfortunate spot of having to concoct that difficult second album.

He came close to a 6N triumph, but ultimately his backing singers revealed their innate lack of harmonic dexterity and were well out of key as they were thumped by a passionate Wales and brought back to Earth with a resounding thud that still echoes today from the wide stellar orbit that their accidental trajectory had propelled them to.

Lancaster needs to look to the very values that made him the right man in the right place all those months ago. His grounded, back to basics approach and rigorous attention to disciplining the out of control England set up. Frankly this astral nonsense that he has allowed himself to be carried away with: flying half way around the world for a rugby lesson from teams with vastly more proficient resources to call upon, visiting NZ to "absorb the culture of success" and interrogating Brian Lochore for insight into the AB mindset is an absurd exercise in unchecked self delusion of Woodwardian proportion.

Someone at RFU HQ needs to pull the guy aside and put a flea in his ear: He didn't base his "revolution" in English rugby on whimsy and wishing on a falling star, he did it by grounding a flailing outfit who's collective personality had become so over-blown that it had obscured its own judgement.

""I want to do more work with the players on the culture and identity of England, to talk about it with them and see it grow".

Leave it out Stu. Just get the scrum ready for the new engagement rules, the defense aligned and prepare the back line with some set piece moves.

I take it you dont like Stuart Lancaster.

By saying that England beat an off colour Abs, is like saying that the Abs are unbeatable.
England proved that the Abs are not unbeatable.

Justin Marshall the ex Abs scrum half said the England are not playing the way the Abs expected them too play, they (England) took the Abs by surprise.

I you're looking for insults majestic. My reading is that Lancaster was doing a good job and shouldn't stuff it up by doing silly stuff.

Can not believe how you bit at this numptys wum

majesticimperialman wrote:I take it you dont like Stuart Lancaster.

By saying that England beat an off colour Abs, is like saying that the Abs are unbeatable.
England proved that the Abs are not unbeatable.

Justin Marshall the ex Abs scrum half said the England are not playing the way the Abs expected them too play, they (England) took the Abs by surprise.

Where did I say NZ were unbeatable? This thread is about Lancaster and what he must do to continue improving England. I worry that he thinks the team is perfect already and is now focussing on psychology and culture and epistemology and metaphysics rather than on core skills, combinations, analysis and game plans.

Showing your colours again GE..
 

yawnnnn

If we get 2 on the bounce against NZ are you moving back to supporting England again GE?

Full of sh:censored:t GE....

 

16th November...can't wait. I like Lancaster's thinking...anyone looking to improve the general areas of their sides game as well as the specifics has to be respected. Meyers in the same boat...looks like we have a couple of visionary in our midst. Both know they have the numbers and should be performing at higher levels.

I actually think GE has a point for once.

He continually talks about breeding a culture, a level of pride in the shirt etc and looks to cite other nations, sports etc to build this in his team inc. talks from various people of note, study trips from himself...rather then working with his players.

My question, is it really lacking in the England rugby team and also, is it and should it be the main focus of his coaching standpoint???

I could understand if they were already full of world class players like the England football team of 2004-6.. yet somehow couldn't collectively achieve their on paper potential... yet thats not the case.

Are England just a few percentage points from being the very best??? No... they have potential sure but they have many issues revolving around their pack, their lack of ruck proficiencies and their ability to move the ball and score tries. They don't even know who their best 15 are and continually play players out of position with awful LT consequences.

Ignoring this and focusing on middle manager coaching techniques is a certain way of going unprepared and doomed to fail when it really matters... i.e. the 6N GS decider earlier in march.

" think GE has a point for once"


"I could understand if they were already full of world class players like the England football team of 2004-6"


what are you talking about mate! 


you are wumming i take it?

mystiroakey

Beckham - former world player of the year runner up and Balon D'or runner up.
Gerrard - 3rd place world player of the year, 3rd place Balon D'or
Lampard - runner up world player of the year, runner up Balon D'or
Michael Owen - winner Balon D'or
Rooney - better then all the above.
Ashley Cole - Probably the best left back in the world for a decade.

The above era with players such as above should have been reaching finals, semi-finals etc... they got to a couple of QF only.

No other European country at the time had as many players decorated personally on a world and european level (4 players in top 3 Balon D'or, 3 in FIFA world player of the year top 3) yet they were constantly beaten by (so called) lesser sides at the crunch.

Why is the above a wum???

Inherited a team full of has beens with an old boy rugby culture, has transformed it into a team full of young talent and competition across the board from 1-15 with two years still to go from the world cup. We are third in the world, and i think the Wales game was the only match we lost in the last 8 matches??. He has an honest and frank way of talking, I trust in his selction policies (no banahans, erinlies, andy goodes, vestys, Hapes, Paynes) and the best players always seem to find there way to the top. The new zealand trip was also about orgainsing the tour, sorting out training venues and red tape, but if you want to be the best you have to understand the best. Lancaster is the best thing that has happened to england rugby in over a decade, I just hope the baying public cut him some slack when we lose a few against the all blacks in the coming seasons, in the bigger picture you have to constantly test yourself against the best to improve. As always the RFU in the background seem to be the real milestone around our neck, Lancaster has managed to handle them well so far but the dickinson issue is the first sign of cracks with the old boys making horrible decisions time and time again.

 

faa019 you talk about a lack of world class players etc. I think this England side has a lot of potential. After all they did beat the best side in the world and bar the Wales game haven't lost to teams by many points.

Against NZ and Scotland England looked very strong.

gloriousempire I think psychologically England were not at the races vs Wales. I think England do have good enough players to beat Wales but for various factors did not perform on the day. I think it's right that Lancaster looks at the psychology.

It's about players growing and gaining experience. Remember the NZ team is incredibly experienced in comparison. The Wales side is also further down the development line.

Ok i wasnt going comment on the original wum OP...however i was interested in this from Chris..

Lancaster is the best thing that has happened to england rugby in over a decade, I just hope the baying public cut him some slack when we lose a few against the all blacks in the coming seasons

Sir Chris, i dont think there is any baying public after Lancs. I think all England fans appreciate exactly what him and his team have done.

What we want now however is too see progression in an offensive and styled way. We can handle defeats to the AB's...IF we show the same sort of gameplan and exciting efficient, and at times brutal rugby that allowed us to beat the AB's last year...and indeed the same game that Wales royally humped us playing.

Personally i think this seasons AI's and 6n are huge with regards to Lancs and Englands plans...

Also - FA

He continually talks about breeding a culture, a level of pride in the shirt etc and looks to cite other nations, sports etc to build this in his team inc. talks from various people of note, study trips from himself...rather then working with his players.

Im sure he's working very hard with his players...in constant talks with them and his clubs. Also...surely taking a few tips regards coaching, preperation etc from the team constantly at the top isnt a bad thing and can only help a very young England squad??

GE wrote:Stuart Lancaster. Care-taker coach. Largely seen as a stable if unspectacular stop gap whilst England courted an international coach of class who wouldn't shudder at the prospect. Possibly Jake White, Eddie Jones or Wayne Smith?

Hmmm, it seems the "caretaker" has been there for a while now.

GE wrote:But with a surprise victory over an off-colour All Blacks he found himself in the position of a little known band hitting the #1 spot with a surprise novelty song. Like the DJ Psy of the rugby world, the Gangnam Style England galloped to an unlikely success over NZ and now Stuart Lancaster finds himself in the unfortunate spot of having to concoct that difficult second album.

Hmm, off colour? Try underestimated, surprised, outthought and ambushed.

GE wrote:He came close to a 6N triumph, but ultimately his backing singers revealed their innate lack of harmonic dexterity and were well out of key as they were thumped by a passionate Wales and brought back to Earth with a resounding thud that still echoes today from the wide stellar orbit that their accidental trajectory had propelled them to

Hmmm, even the Welsh admitted after the match they managed to manipulate the scrum to the extent they were surprised England got penalised so much. That was the foundation of their win.

GE wrote:Lancaster needs to look to the very values that made him the right man in the right place all those months ago. His grounded, back to basics approach and rigorous attention to disciplining the out of control England set up.

Hmmm, where has he lost those values?

GE wrote:Frankly this astral nonsense that he has allowed himself to be carried away with: flying half way around the world for a rugby lesson from teams with vastly more proficient resources to call upon, visiting NZ to "absorb the culture of success" and interrogating Brian Lochore for insight into the AB mindset is an absurd exercise in unchecked self delusion of Woodwardian proportion.

So coaches that are prepared to learn from other are foolish?

GE wrote:Someone at RFU HQ needs to pull the guy aside and put a flea in his ear: He didn't base his "revolution" in English rugby on whimsy and wishing on a falling star, he did it by grounding a flailing outfit who's collective personality had become so over-blown that it had obscured its own judgement.

Huh?

GE wrote:""I want to do more work with the players on the culture and identity of England, to talk about it with them and see it grow".

What's wrong with that?

GE wrote:Leave it out Stu. Just get the scrum ready for the new engagement rules, the defense aligned and prepare the back line with some set piece moves.

Hmmm, I am sure he didn't know that.

Another pearler GE, well done.

Personally, there is nothing better then getting a winning feeling into galvanising a group of individuals. Concentrate on getting it right on the pitch and the players will enjoy playing together and for their country.

I remember reading Sam Warburton talk about the 3rd lions test how he was sitting with Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny post game and how they were in near buckets of tears as they had made the journey together from the juniors up to the one of the highest achievements in NH rugby.... you just can't re-create emotion such as that.

all i can say is that this england rugby team has more world class players on the international stage than what england did back then..

And lancaster has not lost the plot at all.

He sounds like a hard working, likeable and open minded coach, nowt wrong with that at all.

Among the gibberish there is actually the odd sensible comment,Stuart Lancaster WAS a
Caretaker Coach.He wasn't a NAME foisted by the Media,but a man with a thorough knowledge
of the England setup.Having worked with players at academy and A team level he knew there
capabilities.For 10 years the team with the biggest player base,and most facilities had been
wallowing in the Glory of Woodwards team.With very mixed results, Lancaster has picked a
team using one game at a time approach.He is level headed and sensible his sides play the
game as it should be played.That is approaching each game as it comes his results are mixed
versus NH good versus SH poor.One result doesn't make a summer the AI`s will prove whether the All Blacks victory was the usual once in 10years.Or the start of new era for
England SCW took 8 years to build his side and took a lot of defeats along the way to
go with the wins.Seeking advice from other coaches that makes sense. Argentina are
consulting Graham Henry and there improvement especially versus the AB`s shows.

The last rumour I heard is that Lancaster will insist on appearing at the coin toss shrouded in monks robes and will raise his toomba stick to stone henge and ask the lady of the lake which way they should play in the first half.

Are you actually referring to glennhoddle!!

Because he used to do odd stuff like that!!

emack2 wrote:Among the gibberish there is actually the odd sensible comment,Stuart Lancaster WAS a
Caretaker Coach.He wasn't a NAME foisted by the Media,but a man with a thorough knowledge
of the England setup.Having worked with players at academy and A team level he knew there
capabilities.For 10 years the team with the biggest player base,and most facilities had been
wallowing in the Glory of Woodwards team.With very mixed results, Lancaster has picked a
team using one game at a time approach.He is level headed and sensible his sides play the
game as it should be played.That is approaching each game as it comes his results are mixed
versus NH good versus SH poor.One result doesn't make a summer the AI`s will prove whether the All Blacks victory was the usual once in 10years.Or the start of new era for
England SCW took 8 years to build his side and took a lot of defeats along the way to
go with the wins.Seeking advice from other coaches that makes sense. Argentina are
consulting Graham Henry and there improvement especially versus the AB`s shows.

Utter RUBBISH. Wallowing in the glory??!!

Nope the problem was that Woodward (rightly or wrongly) was so focused on winning the WC, that there was absolutely no planning for after that. Everything was simply geared for 2003. The same team played pretty much together with very little changes. It worked.

However, when subsequently the players retired on mass...there were simply NO players ready to just step in, who had experience and could match the retirees level. Those who were left...were pretty much at the end of their career and knackered. A huge number of players had simply fallen in to a huge void.

That should not be allowed to happen ever again.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok i wasnt going comment on the original wum OP...however i was interested in this from Chris..

Lancaster is the best thing that has happened to england rugby in over a decade, I just hope the baying public cut him some slack when we lose a few against the all blacks in the coming seasons

Sir Chris, i dont think there is any baying public after Lancs. I think all England fans appreciate exactly what him and his team have done.

What we want now however is too see progression in an offensive and styled way. We can handle defeats to the AB's...IF we show the same sort of gameplan and exciting efficient, and at times brutal rugby that allowed us to beat the AB's last year...and indeed the same game that Wales royally humped us playing.

Personally i think this seasons AI's and 6n are huge with regards to Lancs and Englands plans...

Also - FA

He continually talks about breeding a culture, a level of pride in the shirt etc and looks to cite other nations, sports etc to build this in his team inc. talks from various people of note, study trips from himself...rather then working with his players.

Im sure he's working very hard with his players...in constant talks with them and his clubs. Also...surely taking a few tips regards coaching, preperation etc from the team constantly at the top isnt a bad thing and can only help a very young England squad??

I think your right, my comment was a general one and more based around the inability the public (perhaps more the media) have to weigh loses up in the grand scheme of things and give coaches a chance, this is of course rife in football but is slowly creeping into rugby, lancs is safe for now but one or two loses against the best opposition and people will get the knives out. I also agree we want to see more attacking play and the inclusion of 12trees and yarde will hopefully see this, however with Manu out I worry about the impact of our backline and am not expecting much against NZ yet. Progession will hopefully keep the neigh sayers at bay cause we simply are not better than SA or NZ, its 50/50 against the ozzies, and if there horrendous injury curse of the past 3 years ever lifts then they will very very hard to beat as well.

Is Warren Gatland overrated?

 

Scrumpy wrote:Is Warren Gatland overrated?

 

Nope, he's been very successful but he's also had his fair share of luck.

What he's saying is important but I would worry its deviating from the actual issues from the squad. Who cares about being no.3 in the world.

If you're not 1st and have the trophies to prove it then 2nd, 5th, 6th.. it doesn't matter.... and this squad needs specific work getting it to the next step, not the final 1-2%.

It all helps if the above is being looked at I suppose.

I recall NZ working heavily on programs for their players, getting them to the physical condition where they can compete on a test scale. They have rested players, got them in specific regimes especially their tight 5... and they are no longer vunerable there... in fact they vie with the best.

Look at chaps like Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola. Two opposites but both poor scrummagers from a test level perspective. One is far too small, the other is far too big. You'd never see chaps like him in SA or NZ.... they never go in unprepared and if they do they are worked.... hard. Getting them up/down to test shape.

It can be down to the clubs too sure but those 2 are in the EPS.... Mako at 130kg for a loosehead is ridiculous.... he's a 60min player at best. IN SR and 3N that just doesn't make the grade and he'd be told that too.

Look at Courtney Lawes... is he a 4 (if so he's not bulky enough) is he a 5 (if so why isn't he getting the game time, leading the lineouts???). Such a talented guy but he's being wasted becuase there is no plan for him... he may be physical enough for the AP... but he's 2nd tier in test rugby overall.

When Eben Etzebeth first came into pro rugby he was brutal yes but every now and again he was being up ended due to his height and high centre of gravity... WP put him on a program where he actually lost weight overall, reducing his upper body bulk, increasing that in his core and designed plays for him. They and SA still have a guy on his shorts when he takes the ball up so even up the balance and make sure he doesn't get tipped.

Thats the sort of work I would expect, he's meant to be a good coach, i.e. developing players but I don't see much development of these players, at least direct involvement.

sirtidychris wrote:Inherited a team full of has beens with an old boy rugby culture, has transformed it into a team full of young talent and competition across the board from 1-15 with two years still to go from the world cup. We are third in the world, and i think the Wales game was the only match we lost in the last 8 matches??. He has an honest and frank way of talking, I trust in his selction policies (no banahans, erinlies, andy goodes, vestys, Hapes, Paynes) and the best players always seem to find there way to the top. The new zealand trip was also about orgainsing the tour, sorting out training venues and red tape, but if you want to be the best you have to understand the best. Lancaster is the best thing that has happened to england rugby in over a decade, I just hope the baying public cut him some slack when we lose a few against the all blacks in the coming seasons, in the bigger picture you have to constantly test yourself against the best to improve. As always the RFU in the background seem to be the real milestone around our neck, Lancaster has managed to handle them well so far but the dickinson issue is the first sign of cracks with the old boys making horrible decisions time and time again.    

Agree Sir Tidy. SL has been what English rugby needed. He's made mistakes (players picked out of position) etc so it will be interesting to see if he learns from them. We caught England with an exceptional game in Cardiff this year, but under SL England look to be on the up.

Hmm, FA, I rather be second than 5th.  

Personally I don't care which order the teams not as good as us are in.

But I do want global rugby to atleast be competitive. Our biggest challengers are SA who are having a crisis of style, Australia who are just having a crisis and England who I'm worried are disappearing into another self indulgent management crisis. Not good!

2nd place... 1st loser!!!!

na of course, being ranked consistently 2nd-3rd is very good and far better but it was only to suggest to some that England's ranking of 3rd isn't much to shout about... given the gulf between 2 and 3.

Teams know how to play England these days in the big matches, they tear them apart upfront... and thats been the case for the last number of years. Its not like AUS where they don't simply have quality players and have to make do, they do have quality players but their insufficiencies are not being addressed to take on and beat the worlds best.

People say the Wales match was a blip.... remember Dublin 2011??? More of a case of Deja Vu.

It is a lot easier to go to one from two, than to go to one from five.  

true but there is no way SA in 12 months time will be any lower then 3rd.

England is at the moment (ranking wise) top of a bunch of 4 similar teams in Ireland, Wales, France and themselves... it wouldn't be unforeseeable for them to drop to the bottom of this pile in 12 months.

For me to stay ahead of these players and close the gap between SA and themselves they have to take a genuine professional look at their conditioning.

Not when we've got the referee conspiracy to help us BT 

you are wishing we will drop out - but we wont . and what about aus?

true but there is no way SA in 12 months time will be any lower then 3rd.

If they keep shipping players all over Europe at the rate they're doing it...you never know!!

Well the player movement has two effects. It weakens SA rugby but also weakens european international teams. 

All good for NZ.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well the player movement has two effects. It weakens SA rugby but also weakens european international teams. 

All good for NZ.

Not every nation has the clout to demand more of the international pot to pay for a non profitable domestic system!!

The rest need to try and make some money!!

It also gives SA youngsters an earlier crack at SR then their NH counterparts.

In 2011 I think George Ford was the standout 10 in the JRWC and outplayed both Johan Goosen and Gareth Anscombe helping him to win the world junior player of the year award.

Ford has spent the last couple of seasons since playing LV cup matches whilst Goosen has taken SA by storm and Anscombe has taken the tourist points record at the Versfeld and won a SR title with the Chiefs.

Its about time unions stopped effectively blocking players from playing abroad its a nonsense outdated communist style system anyway.

Its very yucky, ANy player that plays in any league should be able to play for his home nation!

SA doesn't block but if a player can't commit to every training session, every game etc then I think they have to say, look I'm prioritising club rugby at the moment, when I return I will priortise test rugby oncemore.

It should be based on the individual end of story- if they are good and fit enough- they should play.

We clearly do it in england as well. Its nonsense IMO..

Just thinking about the OP. This suggests that there is a 'plot' and most scarily of all that GE knows what it is...

I agree.. The armitage brothers are excellent players... Delon would walk into the England side esp. on the wing and Steffan at least deserves a call up to the squad to see if he would improve things. Ignoring them is ridiculous.

I hate the fact that unions are bringing club rugby down(yes i know i should not debate this oh here) . But it drives me mad and is counter effective anyway.. More and more players will leave for the money and then we will actually end up with players hating their home nations. and international rugby will just curl up and die..

Its a pro game- time to face facts.

Steffan I could agree with. Delon, I'm not so sure. Still seems on too short a fuse to me and makes Hartley look cool as a cucumber!

Steffan Armitage should be in the squad as he is a class player, I don't care that he plays in France if his good enough then he should be considered.

Delon is world class and when he was on form for england he looked immense at fullback and wing. His attitude doesn't fit the current set up though, hes too volitile, pushing a drug tester, taunting other players, public twitter spats with moore...etc etc, when he played for england his attitude sucked and moving to france apparently hasn't changed him. Even if he was playing in england unless he showed he's grown up his inclusion isn't deserved over Brown, Foden, Tait, Daly, all guys with lots of talent and heart.

Steffan is an unknown quantity at england level, he has been a total unit in france since his move but his massive pack have always given him an armchair ride and therefore scope to roam, if he comes back to england and smashes it for a top 4 club, then he deserves to work his way past Fraser, then Kvesic, then Robshaw but until that day my frustrations are with steffans decisions not lancasters.