Mr Richard Marmite Cockerill returns

by Portnoy's Complaint Sat 26 Oct 2013, 10:02 am

Cockers, the very essence of what is dislikeable for many a non-Tiger returns to the stand to mastermind the recovery from a slightly off-colour start of the season.

November 1997: Widely criticised for confronting New Zealand hooker Norm Hewitt during the Haka before a Test at Old Trafford
November 1999: Released his book 'In Your Face, A Rugby Odyssey', in which he was critical of England head coach Clive Woodward. Cockerill was subsequently dropped from the national side and never played for England again
November 2009: As Leicester boss, handed a four-week match day ban for abusing officials during an LV= Cup tie with Newport Gwent Dragons
May 2010: Received a formal warning over his conduct after he took his frustration out on the wall of the coaches' box during a win over Bath
May 2011: Along with coach Matt O'Connor, he was accused of using foul or abusive language about referee Wayne Barnes during Leicester's Premiership semi-final defeat of Northampton, although the RFU decided not to take any action
May 2013: Suspended for nine matches by the RFU for his conduct in the Premiership final win over Northampton

are a few of his brushes* with the straight-laced disciplinary functionaries and communist apparatchiks that conspire to tear down the fortress walls of Welford Road.

But this dog has nine lives.

Welcome back Cockers but keep your muzzle on.

* http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24552105

by stub Sat 26 Oct 2013, 10:58 am

I think he's great and we need a few more like him in English rugby. He pushes the limits for sure but I think you need to do that to some extent. If he goes too far he gets dealt with!

by sirtidychris Sat 26 Oct 2013, 1:56 pm

He is a tool, I would say massive but he's only about 5ft 4, I hate the way he pubically shames the players that leave, he can never keep his mouth shut, he was embarrassing as a player and with a bigger platform to spout tripe he is more embarassing as a manager. Whatever the issue he always runs to the media straight away to cry about it and doesn't seem deal with stuff face to face, in a respectfull manner. He inherited an amazing squad which has brought him sucess but he is slowly weakening it as good players leave on bad terms.

by nathan Sat 26 Oct 2013, 3:29 pm

sirtidychris wrote:He is a tool, I would say massive but he's only about 5ft 4, I hate the way he pubically shames the players that leave, he can never keep his mouth shut, he was embarrassing as a player and with a bigger platform to spout tripe he is more embarassing as a manager. Whatever the issue he always runs to the media straight away to cry about it and doesn't seem deal with stuff face to face, in a respectfull manner. He inherited an amazing squad which has brought him sucess but he is slowly weakening it as good players leave on bad terms.

what utter nonsense, very bitter post!

Ahhh your a glaws fan, explains it all!

by sirtidychris Sat 26 Oct 2013, 5:59 pm

Not bitter, and perhaps was overly harsh but I don't like the way he conducts himself, especially the way he treats officials and tigers players that want to move on, he has had a pop at Lancaster in the media as well. As said he is a marmite character and I'm the opposite of love on this one. I'm not a glaws fan either ?!

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 26 Oct 2013, 6:20 pm

Sorry Nathanm I have no axe to grind with either Cockerill ot Tigers, but I tend to agree with sirtidychris.

Cockerill is essentially a bully, and whilst you need that on a rugby pitch, he does not conduct himself well at times as a director of rugby.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 26 Oct 2013, 7:32 pm

There has only been two players to leave on bad terms and only one of those Cockers spike harshly of and that was Twelvetrees and that's because Tigers expected him to stand by his word and not lie about his contract situation.

He's certainly an angry man, a bully well probably not. Certainly someone who will put his foot in it given the opportunity and someone who will speak emotionally before fully engaging the brain. Still a very good coach who took an aging squad and brought through a large amount of talent whether that talent was pinched from elsewhere and developed or brought through at the club.

Not sure he'll last the entirity of his contract especially as his contract is a long one and Clermont have been admirers for quite a while now. At the end of the day if other clubs fans don't like him well who cares, that isn't his job, he's there to ensure we win.

by nathan Sat 26 Oct 2013, 7:47 pm

sirtidychris wrote:Not bitter, and perhaps was overly harsh but I don't like the way he conducts himself, especially the way he treats officials and tigers players that want to move on, he has had a pop at Lancaster in the media as well. As said he is a marmite character and I'm the opposite of love on this one. I'm not a glaws fan either ?!

Ah a bath fan then. It was bound to be a club where one of the two players that left on bad terms ended up. Cockerill is certainly a character and I understand why people may dislike him but for me your post was way over the top.

by nathan Sat 26 Oct 2013, 7:53 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Sorry Nathanm I have no axe to grind with either Cockerill ot Tigers, but I tend to agree with sirtidychris.

Cockerill is essentially a bully, and whilst you need that on a rugby pitch, he does not conduct himself well at times as a director of rugby.

I don't think he's a bully, he can be an angry man though and needs to control himself better which he admits too. Trouble I have is that I reckon there's plenty more coaches just like him, they just have the brain to not display it in public.

by nth Sun 27 Oct 2013, 12:46 am

“With respect to London Irish, Dan has come from a side that is in mid-table where, if you win it’s great, if you don’t it’s OK and sixth, seventh or eighth is OK, to Leicester where you have to win every week,” said Cockerill.

"Everywhere you go it’s a cup final and everyone wants to beat you and every time someone beats you away from home they do a lap of honour because it’s such an achievement."

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 9:04 am

I fully understand fans of other clubs antipathy to the Boss.

But he does personify the Tigers' way. I'm reminded of Liverpool FC who lost their way when they bowed to calls for foreign coaches and players and somehow lost their identity and character when they lost their scouseness.

Hiring Meyer encapsulated that sort of muddled thinking from the board.

by broadlandboy Sun 27 Oct 2013, 9:13 am

Someone seems to have a good word for him
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/11865/richard-thorpe-time-with-leicester-tigers-was-no-waste/

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 27 Oct 2013, 9:14 am

Does he personify the Tigers way though Portnoy? If you look at face value at his misdemeanours you write about above, a lot appear to be around abuse of match officials. I would not say that this is the 'Tigers way' at all. Yes you guys have always been uncomprimising on the pitch, but have also been excellent in terms of conduct off of it. Cockerill does not personify that. I see the quote above from nth and wonder why the need to effectively rubbish another club in the press? Is that the Tigers way or indeed the rugby way? I would not say so. It is the sort of thing that I would expect from Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho and does not sit particularly well with me.

Likewise I was unhappy at the beginning of last season when our own Brian Smith made some ill advised comments about how Saracens play the game.

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 9:52 am

I'm not about to defend for a minute Cockers' personal antics in the stands or coaches' dug-outs, Oz. Any more than any disreputable behaviour from any rugby player or official on or off the field.

I was pleased to see that list included his confrontation with Norm Hewitt when he turned the tables on the haka into reverse psychology. Nowadays you wouldn't hear the haka at HQ without the public address system pumped up to 11 for the noise of the crowd belting out the horrible Swing Low.

That is the dog and passion that is personified by Cockers which can get him into trouble with the authorities.

Some people on this post have described him as a bully. I don't know if he is or isn't. But certainly I can't recall an incident of a Tigers player being embroiled in a personal incident whilst in his charge. The nearest I can remember is Manu jumping ship in 2011 and then I wouldn't have liked to have been in his shoes when he got home.

You don't get loose tweets from Tigers, or reports of drunken behaviour or drugs or anything like that. And if Cockers lets off steam by kicking off very occasionally, then I'd pay the small price of a touchline ban to keep him in place.

He's probably not a very nice man to be around when he's got a bag on, but he's bloody effective as a coach.

That is the dog that

by yappysnap Sun 27 Oct 2013, 10:10 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'm not about to defend for a minute Cockers' personal antics in the stands or coaches' dug-outs, Oz. Any more than any disreputable behaviour from any rugby player or official on or off the field.

I was pleased to see that list included his confrontation with Norm Hewitt when he turned the tables on the haka into reverse psychology. Nowadays you wouldn't hear the haka at HQ without the public address system pumped up to 11 for the noise of the crowd belting out the horrible Swing Low.

That is the dog and passion that is personified by Cockers which can get him into trouble with the authorities.

Some people on this post have described him as a bully. I don't know if he is or isn't. But certainly I can't recall an incident of a Tigers player being embroiled in a personal incident whilst in his charge. The nearest I can remember is Manu jumping ship in 2011 and then I wouldn't have liked to have been in his shoes when he got home.

You don't get loose tweets from Tigers, or reports of drunken behaviour or drugs or anything like that. And if Cockers lets off steam by kicking off very occasionally, then I'd pay the small price of a touchline ban to keep him in place.

He's probably not a very nice man to be around when he's got a bag on, but he's bloody effective as a coach.

That is the dog that

Not after Jordan Crane's antics anyhow

To me Cockers is just a little stupid with the media, he lets himself be led along with them and ends up saying things that he then must later regret. Bad mouthing any leaving player is bad form no matter what may have happened but I'm sure he's learnt from that and it wouldn't happen again.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 27 Oct 2013, 11:26 am

Yappy, he only ever bad mouthed Twelvetrees. Ford left in the summer and Cockers said he respected him and would happily sign him again. Castro left with best wishes despite not conducting himself particularly well.

Two altercations with match officials in four years as head coach is s bit of a so, so record. Not the worst and not the best. I think he's always going to be outspoken and say exactly what he thinks but the way he phrases that is what he needs to improve.

by sirtidychris Sun 27 Oct 2013, 11:45 am

I think it was the way the treated the fourth official that really upset alot of people, he didn't like the courteney Lawes tackle but instead of checking on toby floods welfare, he started intimidating and swearing at an official, to the point that members of the public were sending in letters to the RFU. He has a history of doing this as well (not always banned for it as well), its not something i want to see in rugby, you can have characters without starting on officials.

And castros verdict on cockerill

“ The only thing that really annoys me concerns the people at Leicester who handled the transfer, chief executive Simon Cohen and director of rugby Richard Cockerill.

“After all my years of service with Leicester, I did not expect them to behave in such an ungracious manner towards me. I must say they have disappointed me terribly.

“I have lost all respect for these two people, given the way they have spoken about me and the way they handled my departure.”

And, with a parting shot that will surely anger his former club, he claimed there were very few happy players in their squad.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-rugby-premiership/10172/ive-lost-all-respect-for-cockerill-says-martin-castrogiovanni/

by broadlandboy Sun 27 Oct 2013, 11:54 am

Cockerill was not done for intimidating and swearing at an official but for swearing.Castro was probably miffed that Cole had overtaken him in the pecking order, I believe that Cockerill has no dealings with the contracts that being left to Simon Cohen.It was Toulon who messed Castro about by agreeing a fee then changing their minds & castro wanted Leicester to release him for free but Castro is hardly going to blame his new employers

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 12:06 pm

Castro was and is serving borrowed time. And with the cap in place, like Moody, it was time to move him on.

It's a matter of resource management. Harsh but sadly true.

And nothing to do with Cockers?
Well I doubt that his opinion was not carefully sought.

by sirtidychris Sun 27 Oct 2013, 12:11 pm

Agree it was castro's time to go with his force on the wane and was upset about being second fiddle to cole and in his opinion told he would get equal starting oppotunites by cockerill. Still i feel his move was handled badly with cockerill certainly involved. The RFU panel believed cockerill was trying to threaten the referee, and the ban was so harsh beacuse cockerill during the hearing didn't feel he had done anything wrong.

RFU Hearing:
the three-man panel accused the Leicester boss of an "insidious and petulant act intended to threaten match officials into altering the way they officiated."
They added that "the game's core values, namely respect, discipline and sportsmanship, seem to us, to have passed Mr Cockerill by.Read more: http://legacy.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Lip-readers-used-Richard-Cockerill-8217-s-case/story-19481673-detail/story.html#ixzz2ivJlqgod

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 12:19 pm

sirtidychris wrote:RFU Hearing:
the three-man panel accused the Leicester boss of an "insidious and petulant act intended to threaten match officials into altering the way they officiated."
They added that "the game's core values, namely respect, discipline and sportsmanship, seem to us, to have passed Mr Cockerill by.Read more: http://legacy.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Lip-readers-used-Richard-Cockerill-8217-s-case/story-19481673-detail/story.html#ixzz2ivJlqgod

I don't think that any serious Tigers v2 fan has disputed the fact that Cockers' ban was not merited although there was variation in the scope of the ban comparing the Hartley case in the same match remains slightly contentious. If you compare apples, oranges and fruitcakes.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 27 Oct 2013, 12:41 pm

Chris, he was banned following his second conversation with the fourth official which was after the spinal board had been taken onto the field of play with Flood not really moving much. He was unhappy with Barnes decision not to use the video match official to review the incident.

Castro was unhappy that Tigers insisted on a fee being paid rather than simply cancelling his contract. Had Castro simply asked then he might well have got what he wanted, however, I think Cohen was irked by the way Toulon publicly agreed a deal and a fee, then complained the fee was too expensive, said the deal was off and then tried to barter a new deal. I'm sure Toulon compensated Castro for the value of his contract which he bought out.

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 1:03 pm

Sam, you have expressed the opinion from time to time that Cockerill's tenure of the coaching job is more tenuous than I feel.

If he was to be sacked in due course, I wonder if the net for the search would be extended globally like Loffreda and Meyer or should it be restricted to those with experience and understanding of the Tigers culture like Richards, Geordan or Howard?

by formerly known as Sam Sun 27 Oct 2013, 1:58 pm

I don't think Cockers will go this season but I can't see him staying for the next five years. That's a long time in rugby terms and there are already other clubs sniffing around (mainly Clermont) and I wouldn't be surprised if a smaller nation were to offer him a crack at the international scene either.

Were he to go in the short term then I think it would be a simple promotion for Burke to DOR and Blaze to head coach with probably Chuter coming in as his assistant. If It's in a fre years time then I'd imagine Burke may have already gone to be. DOR in Ireland and then I think Mauger will come in and work with Murphy in the backs (Mauger as head coach) and Rowntree as DOR.

I can't see any person without Tigers experience being brought in again. It's worth noting that there's a few former backs from Tigers coaching at pro and semi pro level in Sam Vesty (Worcester academy), Scott Bemand (Loughborough Uni), Ollie Smith (Ealing) and Harry Ellis who isn't quite at semi pro level just yet as he's still studying but is helping out at a couple of places (South Leicester and Loughborough Uni). Craig Newby is head coach at Cambridge and Chuter is already working with the academy.

by The Saint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 2:32 pm

Port, looks as if Tigers and Wasps have rotated their squads for today's game. I thought you told all the Ulster fans that this never happens in the Premiership?

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 2:43 pm

Me? I don't think so.
You have got me confused with someone else mate.
But as it happens, they haven't rotated their squad and you are trolling.

by nathan Sun 27 Oct 2013, 2:48 pm

The Saint wrote:Port, looks as if Tigers and Wasps have rotated their squads for today's game. I thought you told all the Ulster fans that this never happens in the Premiership?

????

There either away with England or Injured, what are you talking about?

by The Saint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 3:09 pm

So they've been forced or chosen to rotate their squads? I thought you didn't do that sorta thing cuz your league is so amazing and everything.

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 3:51 pm

Stop trolling, St. Both sides put up their best sides available.

And the Tigers' one was rubbish.

by The Saint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 4:05 pm

It's what happens in the Pro12 too (rotation), but you use it as a stick to rubbish that league. It's strange.

by doctor_grey Sun 27 Oct 2013, 4:09 pm

In today's match I believe Leicester played the only warm bodies which are not injured. Not a rotation. Rather reaching to the depths of their personnel pool to field 22 players.

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 4:21 pm

The Saint wrote:It's what happens in the Pro12 too (rotation), but you use it as a stick to rubbish that league. It's strange.

Except I don't.
Although I do have my misgivings about the IRFU's sublimation of the Provinces' league players' availability.

Is that what you are phishing for?

by The Saint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 4:24 pm

It's still squad rotation, regardless of the reasons. Port, you and many others quite clearly do rubbish the league with that.

by justified sinner Sun 27 Oct 2013, 4:29 pm

This is an old and boring argument. Different Unions manage their internationals in different ways, England EPS most Rabo nations enforcing rest periods. In general it has a bigger impact on Rabo sides as they have a higher number of internationals per side. Just the way it is.

by Portnoy's Complaint Sun 27 Oct 2013, 4:47 pm

The Saint wrote:It's still squad rotation, regardless of the reasons. Port, you and many others quite clearly do rubbish the league with that.

Except I don't.

I've argued long, hard and fruitlessly for the reduction of league sizes (well the Jeff at least as the others are not in my patch), the abandonment of playoffs and the separation of league fixtures in international windows.

But whilst the demands of professional rugby prevail, and demands on players are so ruthless, I guess that I'll be barking at the Moon till kingdom comes.

As I suspected when professionalism was first legitimised, it has come to pass.

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