Ireland v Samoa 5.45pm

First topic message reminder :

At that good man Gibbo's request and because the other thread was humongous !

COME ON IRELAND!!!!


Live on rte 2 and bbc NI. Hopefully that means rte won't scramble the signal. Have it on record there just incase.

Saint
Ging to try and avoid the Wales score and pick it up on iplayer later

ME-109 wrote:Lots of self congratulatory postings by some of the Lady boys fans...not sure why you would want to have a pop off Coughlan in relation to Heaslip Jen....Coughlan is a year or two too late and most munster fans think that so save the childishness. However if you want a masterclass in how to play as an 8 you cant go far wrong with the last Munster/Leinster game I believe Mr Coughlan stood out from the mediocrity on display...

regardless old Jaime was yet again overshadowed by his backrow colleagues...but as indicated he surely did some great unseen work....(so much so its even unseen in the footage)...  

Coughlan is irrelevant to this thread. He isnt an Irish international. Off topic.

DOD, did you read Liam Toland's 'analysis' in today's Irish Times. I think he is advocating POM be dropped  

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Lots of self congratulatory postings by some of the Lady boys fans...not sure why you would want to have a pop off Coughlan in relation to Heaslip Jen....Coughlan is a year or two too late and most munster fans think that so save the childishness. However if you want a masterclass in how to play as an 8 you cant go far wrong with the last Munster/Leinster game I believe Mr Coughlan stood out from the mediocrity on display...

regardless old Jaime was yet again overshadowed by his backrow colleagues...but as indicated he surely did some great unseen work....(so much so its even unseen in the footage)...  

Coughlan is irrelevant to this thread. He isnt an Irish international. Off topic.

I didn't bring him up originally so your comment is misdirected. I also noted that he wasn't particularly relevant to the discussion. Neither was Jaime in relation to the game on Saturday....so it evens out

GunsGerms wrote:I think you might be underestimating Lydiate's value as a player too. He was instrumental in knocking Ireland out of the WC IMO.

Anyone I know that went on the Lions tour singled Lydiate out as a player that stood out as a surprisingly good player. Possibly the kind of player you can appreciate more when you are actually at the game, who knows.

Heaslip is just the flavour of the month scapegoat and has been for a while now because he moisturises and dresses nicely. Still Irelands best 8, no question.

Lydiate is a good player, and a world class tackler.  Not a very well rounded player though.  The "unseen work" comments make little sense as he isn't actually that proficient at the breakdown.  In the RWC he had the easiest day ever against Ireland.  The tactics of "give Ferris/O'Brien the ball" were so painfully predictable that Lydiate and Warburton really did have a field day with us.

Heaslip isn't a scapegoat, he just hasn't been playing consistently well enough for people to be at all happy with him firstly as the irish captain, and secondly as having his spot on the irish team nailed down.  If he is the best 8 in Ireland then I worry and hope that other options present themselves (or POM/SOB move to 8, as they both can play there).  Like I said, Coughlan was a lot better in the provincial games than Heaslip last season.  Obviously Heaslip has the international experience though, so bringing Coughlan in now would be silly who is on the wrong side of 30.

You do know how to get those sly rib punches in ME.  Good work.

Sin é wrote:DOD, did you read Liam Toland's 'analysis' in today's Irish Times. I think he is advocating POM be dropped  

Well he didn't mention POM so I guess he is...probably because he had a good game (which happens more often than not) so therefore the Munster Reject usually ignores him..

Sin é wrote:DOD, did you read Liam Toland's 'analysis' in today's Irish Times. I think he is advocating POM be dropped  

I agree with him though I wouldnt use the word dropped. I see POM as a player that should be rotated. I dont think of him as one of Irelands key players that should if fit start all matches:

POC, Sexton, Best and arguably Kearney.

In any case isnt Henry injured? So POM will probably feature.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Lots of self congratulatory postings by some of the Lady boys fans...not sure why you would want to have a pop off Coughlan in relation to Heaslip Jen....Coughlan is a year or two too late and most munster fans think that so save the childishness. However if you want a masterclass in how to play as an 8 you cant go far wrong with the last Munster/Leinster game I believe Mr Coughlan stood out from the mediocrity on display...

regardless old Jaime was yet again overshadowed by his backrow colleagues...but as indicated he surely did some great unseen work....(so much so its even unseen in the footage)...  

Coughlan is irrelevant to this thread. He isnt an Irish international. Off topic.

I didn't bring him up originally so your comment is misdirected. I also noted that he wasn't particularly relevant to the discussion. Neither was Jaime in relation to the game on Saturday....so it evens out

In fairness I was not having a pop at Cawlin at all. Good solid player that he is (If not quite intl class) I was having a pop at Rory (who originally put him forward as the "form back row in Ireland")
Rory had several pops back at me so it's all good.

All of the Leinster back row (if not most of the team) were muck in their last outing in Thomond. It was one game. They made up for it the following week in Swansea.

Heaslip was fine. I guess there would be seven or eight players at least I'd highlight before touching on his contribution, he was certainly the least influential of the four backrows and Henry only had 30 minutes so not much to say about Jamie... but he didn't do anything wrong either. I guess like Tommy Bowe and Mike McCarthy the game just passed him by a little. He wasn't particularly involved. There isn't much else to say or analyse or think about and if I try I'll end up saying something like;

"In conclusion, Jamie Heaslip is a rugby player and he was on the pitch during the Ireland versus Samoa game."

Sin é wrote:DOD, did you read Liam Toland's 'analysis' in today's Irish Times. I think he is advocating POM be dropped  

It is to do with balance.  POM, SOB and Heaslip are not a balanced combination.  Heaslip isn't going anywhere, and if it is a toss up between SOB and POM (both are in sublime form) then SOB wins, due to experience.  I definitely think SOB and POM would heavily compliment each other, if paired up with the right option.

This is why discussing Heaslip is relevant.  Once again he was overshadowed by his back row colleagues against Samoa, and the balance isn't right.  He will not be dropped though, so McLaughlin makes more sense at 6.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think you might be underestimating Lydiate's value as a player too. He was instrumental in knocking Ireland out of the WC IMO.

Anyone I know that went on the Lions tour singled Lydiate out as a player that stood out as a surprisingly good player. Possibly the kind of player you can appreciate more when you are actually at the game, who knows.

Heaslip is just the flavour of the month scapegoat and has been for a while now because he moisturises and dresses nicely. Still Irelands best 8, no question.

Lydiate is a good player, and a world class tackler.  Not a very well rounded player though.  The "unseen work" comments make little sense as he isn't actually that proficient at the breakdown.  In the RWC he had the easiest day ever against Ireland.  The tactics of "give Ferris/O'Brien the ball" were so painfully predictable that Lydiate and Warburton really did have a field day with us.

Heaslip isn't a scapegoat, he just hasn't been playing consistently well enough for people to be at all happy with him firstly as the irish captain, and secondly as having his spot on the irish team nailed down.  If he is the best 8 in Ireland then I worry and hope that other options present themselves (or POM/SOB move to 8, as they both can play there).  Like I said, Coughlan was a lot better in the provincial games than Heaslip last season.  Obviously Heaslip has the international experience though, so bringing Coughlan in now would be silly who is on the wrong side of 30.

If Heaslip is so bad why has he played more International matches than any other Irish player in the last 4/5 years? Must be doing something right. Can you remember the last time he was dropped?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Could you find me a link where Schmidt has mentioned Heaslip changing his game and becoming mediocre to improve the team?  .

 
Well clearly not. If I come across something that expresses the bit before the bolded bit I will let you know. Was about last April IIRC.

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:DOD, did you read Liam Toland's 'analysis' in today's Irish Times. I think he is advocating POM be dropped  

Well he didn't mention POM so I guess he is...probably because he had a good game (which happens more often than not) so therefore the Munster Reject usually ignores him..

Just in relation to POM there are some commentators who ignore him or as some on here indicate see him as not "nailed" down. Interestingly his spot has been "nailed" down this year. In addition he continues to be the standout player in most games and was our most influential player in the debacle of the last 6ns, plus in the Irish tour basically dragged Ireland over the line against Canada and USA.

I expect him very much to be the incumbent 6 for the remaining two games as the form backrower along with SOB.

I never said he was "so bad" but he certainly isn't consistent.  He has had some fantastic games for Ireland, but over the past few years I see more just okay games from Heaslip than good ones.  I think most would agree, if they are not biased.

He also is very rarely injured (so nobody has taken his position and made him fight for it on his return) and his position has literally never been under threat his whole career.  Which is why I think he has been cruising.

I think if Henry is injured there is no realistic chance of O'Mahony going anywhere. Before the game I said that it was maybe a toss-up which one of those would lose out to SOB but a) Henry got injured making it a moot point and b) O'Mahony played particularly well anyway, apart from throwing the ball away needlessly when he made that great break.

Certainly O'Mahony proved he deserves to start.

Probably because he can only play No. 8 and so has to start as he isn't a bench option. He has benefitted from Denis Leamy's early retirement and the fact that David Wallace also retired and Stephen Ferris is injured a lot, so he is the only old hand left.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Could you find me a link where Schmidt has mentioned Heaslip changing his game and becoming mediocre to improve the team?  .

 
Well clearly not. If I come across something that expresses the bit before the bolded bit I will let you know. Was about last April IIRC.

Well the bolded part was a bit tongue in cheek on my part, but to be fair, that is the change I have seen. 

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Lots of self congratulatory postings by some of the Lady boys fans...not sure why you would want to have a pop off Coughlan in relation to Heaslip Jen....Coughlan is a year or two too late and most munster fans think that so save the childishness. However if you want a masterclass in how to play as an 8 you cant go far wrong with the last Munster/Leinster game I believe Mr Coughlan stood out from the mediocrity on display...

regardless old Jaime was yet again overshadowed by his backrow colleagues...but as indicated he surely did some great unseen work....(so much so its even unseen in the footage)...  

Coughlan is irrelevant to this thread. He isnt an Irish international. Off topic.

I didn't bring him up originally so your comment is misdirected. I also noted that he wasn't particularly relevant to the discussion. Neither was Jaime in relation to the game on Saturday....so it evens out

In fairness I was not having a pop at Cawlin at all. Good solid player that he is (If not quite intl class) I was having a pop at Rory (who originally put him forward as the "form back row in Ireland")
Rory had several pops back at me so it's all good.

All of the Leinster back row (if not most of the team) were muck in their last outing in Thomond. It was one game. They made up for it the following week in Swansea.

Fair enough...

He is by far the best No.8 in Ireland but he hasn't kicked on unfortunately compared to some players.

ME-109 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:DOD, did you read Liam Toland's 'analysis' in today's Irish Times. I think he is advocating POM be dropped  

Well he didn't mention POM so I guess he is...probably because he had a good game (which happens more often than not) so therefore the Munster Reject usually ignores him..

Just in relation to POM there are some commentators who ignore him or as some on here indicate see him as not "nailed" down. Interestingly his spot has been "nailed" down this year. In addition he continues to be the standout player in most games  and was our most influential player in the debacle of the last 6ns, plus in the Irish tour basically dragged Ireland over the line against Canada and USA.

I expect him very much to be the incumbent 6 for the remaining two games as the form backrower along with SOB.

Not a word of a lie in any of that.

I think Heaslip is a solid dependable player who'll guarantee you a solid performance. In international rugby that should not be underestimated. I think he is far from being a guaranteed starter nowadays. I'm looking forward to Jack Conan breaking into the Leinster team. He is a powerful ball carrier and athletic player who will put pressure on Heaslip.

DOD, in the Sindo's Player Ratings yesterday, they put 'undroppable?' in POM's commentary.

ME-109 wrote: In addition he continues to be the standout player in most games  and was our most influential player in the debacle of the last 6ns, plus in the Irish tour basically dragged Ireland over the line against Canada and USA.

If you say so. Not sure he is quite as good as you think. Puts bags of effort in Ill give you that. He reminds me a bit of the forward version of Luke Fitzgerald. Keep hearing how good he is going to be and about his well documented talents yet oftens flatters to deceive, a sort of a hybrid backrow who hasnt nailed down a position yet.

Notch wrote:I think if Henry is injured there is no realistic chance of O'Mahony going anywhere. Before the game I said that it was maybe a toss-up which one of those would lose out to SOB but a) Henry got injured making it a moot point and b) O'Mahony played particularly well anyway, apart from throwing the ball away needlessly when he made that great break.

Certainly O'Mahony proved he deserves to start.

Two points here Notch.
1. POM when fit in the last year has started all games for Ireland since breaking into the team.
2. SOB hasn't played much at six and is now more a 7. Having Henry start would be a disruption and isn't a backrow that has played together...

profitius wrote:I think Heaslip is a solid dependable player who'll guarantee you a solid performance. In international rugby that should not be underestimated. I think he is far from being a guaranteed starter nowadays. I'm looking forward to Jack Conan breaking into the Leinster team. He is a powerful ball carrier and athletic player who will put pressure on Heaslip.

I think there are quite a few Academy players at Leinster who are going to change the dynamic of the Leinster side.  Dan Leavy has been heavily mentioned by Leinster fans on here for having considerable promise, which would surely see O'Brien moving from 7.  I don't know a whole lot about Leavy myself, to be fair.

For what it's worth. I think POM is a fine player, and he had a good game on Saturday. Fairly nailed on starter barring a return to FULL fitness of a mr S Ferris.

Sin é wrote:Probably because he can only play No. 8 and so has to start as he isn't a bench option. He has benefitted from Denis Leamy's early retirement and the fact that David Wallace also retired and Stephen Ferris is injured a lot, so he is the only old hand left.

Leamy wasnt up to it for a long time so didnt pose a threat to Heaslip. Ferris and Wallace dont play 8 so makes little difference that they dont play much. If anything POM has benefitted from their absence.

Sin é wrote:DOD, in the Sindo's Player Ratings yesterday, they put 'undroppable?' in POM's commentary.

Really..yer man must have been drinking....not like the Sindo...Reilly in the Times gave a seven with some commentary on him regarding needed to improve technique and so when I read the full report didn't mention anything on technique or any kind of analysis, Lenihen wasn't doing any gushing about him either...must have been reading the comments on here  

ME-109 wrote:

Notch wrote:I think if Henry is injured there is no realistic chance of O'Mahony going anywhere. Before the game I said that it was maybe a toss-up which one of those would lose out to SOB but a) Henry got injured making it a moot point and b) O'Mahony played particularly well anyway, apart from throwing the ball away needlessly when he made that great break.

Certainly O'Mahony proved he deserves to start.

Two points here Notch.
1. POM when fit in the last year has started all games for Ireland since breaking into the team.
2. SOB hasn't played much at six and is now more a 7. Having Henry start would be a disruption and isn't a backrow that has played together...

Some people just can't take a compliment for one of their favourite players  

POMs performance rating got a massive boost when Jackson's put him in space and he burst through the gap and charged forward, threw a speculative pass and then got up and slated his team for not latching on to it.

Fans love that sort of stuff and would have earned him an extra couple of marks out of ten.

Bloody hell, Henry is probably out for the Heineken Cup matches. Worst news of the day!

All water under the bridge now....Aus up next which will be interesting...someone start a thread

GunsGerms wrote:POMs performance rating got a massive boost when Jackson's put him in space and he burst through the gap and charged forward, threw a speculative pass and then got up and slated his team for not latching on to it.

Fans love that sort of stuff and would have earned him an extra couple of marks out of ten.

Yeah guns it wasn't the couple of penalties at the breakdown he won in the first half when we were under pressure or the link work he popped up with in the second half as well...yada yada...

Notch wrote:Bloody hell, Henry is probably out for the Heineken Cup matches. Worst news of the day!

He didn't even look too bad walking off the pitch!  What has happened to him?

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:Probably because he can only play No. 8 and so has to start as he isn't a bench option. He has benefitted from Denis Leamy's early retirement and the fact that David Wallace also retired and Stephen Ferris is injured a lot, so he is the only old hand left.

Leamy wasnt up to it for a long time so didnt pose a threat to Heaslip. Ferris and Wallace dont play 8 so makes little difference that they dont play much. If anything POM has benefitted from their absence.

Leamy is only about 2 years older than Heaslip so if he didn't have his injury problems he would still be playing and more than likely would have been well up to it, bearing in mind that he played No. 8 for 3-4 years internationally, then moved to 6 to 8 internationally to accommodate Heislip. All the Munster backrows played all backrow positions. Many say that David Wallace was really a better No. 8.

I'd imagine POM will play either 6 or 8 for Munster in the future (all depending on how it works out for CJ).

Notch wrote:Bloody hell, Henry is probably out for the Heineken Cup matches. Worst news of the day!

Terrible news for Ireland too.

I laugh at the bunch of you besmirching each others players and then hoping those same players go out and do the business against sides like the two that's coming up in the coming weeks.

If POM is a chancer that hasn't been exposed yet, he'll prove it in the coming weeks.... but if he's on the team for either Australia or New Zealand then he'll be there because Schmidt doesn't share that opinion that he's secretly a light boy throwing big shapes at International level.

Same for Heaslip.  Let's see what these guys do under Schmidt... and how an upcoming team might be lulled into the idea that plodding Heaslip can't and won't break lose.

Despite Leinster being what they were at Provincial level in Europe, Schmidt didn't have the firepower to draw on that he now has with two other top Provinces to draw from - and even perhaps some selections from Connacht into the new year and beyond.

In a sense, Schmidt was as limited in his choices at Leinster as Ireland International were limited in their tactical preparedness.  He's got more option now to release these players from necessary shackles.  Let's see how he evolves into things.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:POMs performance rating got a massive boost when Jackson's put him in space and he burst through the gap and charged forward, threw a speculative pass and then got up and slated his team for not latching on to it.

Fans love that sort of stuff and would have earned him an extra couple of marks out of ten.

Yeah guns it wasn't the couple of penalties at the breakdown he won in the first half when we were under pressure or the link work he popped up with in the second half as well...yada yada...

Thats all good stuff too. He had a good game.

SecretFly wrote:I laugh at the bunch of you besmirching each others players and then hoping those same players go out and do the business against sides like the two that's coming up in the coming weeks.

If POM is a chancer that hasn't been exposed yet, he'll prove it in the coming weeks.... but if he's on the team for either Australia or New Zealand then he'll be there because Schmidt doesn't share that opinion that he's secretly a light boy throwing big shapes at International level.

Same for Heaslip.  Let's see what these guys do under Schmidt... and how an upcoming team might be lulled into the idea that plodding Heaslip can't and won't break lose.

Despite Leinster being what they were at Provincial level in Europe, Schmidt didn't have the firepower to draw on that he now has with two other top Provinces to draw from - and even perhaps some selections from Connacht into the new year and beyond.

In a sense, Schmidt was as limited in his choices at Leinster as Ireland International were limited in their tactical preparedness.  He's got more option now to release these players from necessary shackles.  Let's see how he evolves into things.

To be fair Fly, I am impartial, there is no Ulster player currently fit who can challenge the back row.

The thing that will greatly frustrate me, is if D'Arcy and O'Driscoll are the centre pairing again.  Marshall deserves a shot and will greatly improve things both defensively and offensively.  In fact I can see him excelling against the SH sides.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing that will greatly frustrate me, is if D'Arcy and O'Driscoll are the centre pairing again.  Marshall deserves a shot and will greatly improve things both defensively and offensively.  In fact I can see him excelling against the SH sides.

I hope he starts at least one of the next two matches. I reckon he will start v Australia. Not because Darcy is bad though. How he drew two defenders for McFaddens try was exceptionally good.

Who do you want to see replace O'Driscoll? Earls is injured I think isnt he?

Hamstring injury for Henry. Tricky one to rehab.

profitius wrote:I think Heaslip is a solid dependable player who'll guarantee you a solid performance. In international rugby that should not be underestimated. I think he is far from being a guaranteed starter nowadays. I'm looking forward to Jack Conan breaking into the Leinster team. He is a powerful ball carrier and athletic player who will put pressure on Heaslip.

Think Jordi Murphy will have something to say about that.

In Toland's article he also referred to the boss as Joel Schmidt??? WTF Its Josef or Joe!!!

Mickado wrote:

profitius wrote:I think Heaslip is a solid dependable player who'll guarantee you a solid performance. In international rugby that should not be underestimated. I think he is far from being a guaranteed starter nowadays. I'm looking forward to Jack Conan breaking into the Leinster team. He is a powerful ball carrier and athletic player who will put pressure on Heaslip.

Think Jordi Murphy will have something to say about that.

Good and all as Conan may be. (He is just back from injury) He hasn't a single rabo cap yet, never mind HC. Give the guy a chance.
jordi Murphy is pure class and a bit further along. He is also only a year older than Conan with 27 senior caps inc a couple of HC.

GunsGerms wrote:In Toland's article he also referred to the boss as Joel Schmidt??? WTF Its Josef or Joe!!!

Maybe he is still out in the Middle East so too many water pipes...

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:In Toland's article he also referred to the boss as Joel Schmidt??? WTF Its Josef or Joe!!!

Maybe he is still out in the Middle East so too many water pipes...

Huh?

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:In Toland's article he also referred to the boss as Joel Schmidt??? WTF Its Josef or Joe!!!

Maybe he is still out in the Middle East so too many water pipes...

Huh?

Bongs!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Mickado wrote:

profitius wrote:I think Heaslip is a solid dependable player who'll guarantee you a solid performance. In international rugby that should not be underestimated. I think he is far from being a guaranteed starter nowadays. I'm looking forward to Jack Conan breaking into the Leinster team. He is a powerful ball carrier and athletic player who will put pressure on Heaslip.

Think Jordi Murphy will have something to say about that.

Good and all as Conan may be. (He is just back from injury) He hasn't a single rabo cap yet, never mind HC. Give the guy a chance.
jordi Murphy is pure class and a bit further along. He is also only a year older than Conan with 27 senior caps inc a couple of HC.

I'm allowed to make a prediction, jen!  

profitius wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Mickado wrote:

profitius wrote:I think Heaslip is a solid dependable player who'll guarantee you a solid performance. In international rugby that should not be underestimated. I think he is far from being a guaranteed starter nowadays. I'm looking forward to Jack Conan breaking into the Leinster team. He is a powerful ball carrier and athletic player who will put pressure on Heaslip.

Think Jordi Murphy will have something to say about that.

Good and all as Conan may be. (He is just back from injury) He hasn't a single rabo cap yet, never mind HC. Give the guy a chance.
jordi Murphy is pure class and a bit further along. He is also only a year older than Conan with 27 senior caps inc a couple of HC.

I'm allowed to make a prediction, jen!  

Of course you are. Just pointing out that it is based mostly on potential.

Shifting it back a few years. Brendan Macken and Andrew Conway should be the new Bod and Denis Hickie by now........

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:In Toland's article he also referred to the boss as Joel Schmidt??? WTF Its Josef or Joe!!!

Maybe he is still out in the Middle East so too many water pipes...

Huh?

Bongs!

Bongs indeed....

He was out supporting Trocaire in Beirut last week...