Joe Louis: Why does the majority of this forum not have him as a top 10 ATG ?

[Rodney]

First topic message reminder :

Always surprised when 606v2 compile their p4p ATG lists and Louis ranks well below Ali and rarely features in the top 10. It isn't a common trend most forums and historians have Louis as a shoo in. The UK seem to have a love in with Mayweather who gets vastly overrated and gets placed as a top 10 ATG.
The naked eye proves Joe Louis as a near perfect technician for a boxer , Freddie Roach recently described him as the best text book fighter ever witnessed.

Louis fought in a period where the number of fighters registered was an all time high. Louis does have the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class. Louis lost once 18 months after his professional debut and twice when he was an empty shell. It must be noted that all these losses were against fighters who won the lineal title independantly of their fight with Louis. In between the Schmeling loss and the Charles loss you have a 15 year period where Louis's only questionable decision is a close split decision win over future champion Jersey Joe Walcott at the tail end of his career. In that period he defended his title a record number of times against the Rings no 1 contender.

Surely as a pioneer of boxing, the footage we have and the remarkable record , Louis is a top 10 ATG.

Cheers Rodders

[TRUSSMAN66]

As a heavyweight getting flattened by a fellow heavyweight is more damaging than being a former featherweight getting flattened by Hearns at light middleweight.

Everyone can get caught like Frazier did..........However Duran didn't seem to know how to slip a jab......I was embarrassed for him..

AMATEUR NIGHT........

It happened to him twice Truss against the same man at his own weight, Duran beating the merely decent Moore and Barkley doesn't make him a light middleweight.

Or the point defeat by Hagler......

It wasn't the weight factor........But the jab and the fact he couldn't dodge it......He was completely outboxed and destroyed..Everything worked of the jab in that fight..

Frazier was pushed back.........But no one is saying he's top 10.........

No excuse for looking like an amateur.........If you're a top 10 fighter.

[Hammersmith harrier]

We've been over this numerous times but Hearns had a 13" reach advantage, that is the reason why his jab was so dominant, how many lightweights have had to give up such physical disadvantages?

[TRUSSMAN66]

Tyson seemed to manage quite well................

Curry beat Mcrory..........Lightweight is irrelevant.........He didn't land a punch...so his power didn't count......

Try moving your head....Is a start.........fought him on the outside......only a pillock does that..

[azania]

He was hardly schooled by Laing and again it was a fair way above his best weight, you cannot ignore he was a featherweight who moved up in order to get a title shot.

I would expect Floyd to beat Corny Bundrage at LMW. Too many excuses with Duran. I liked the guy and his badass attitude. But his record above LW is patchy at best and not worthy of top 10. I'd rate JCC above him. But would expect Duran to win a fight with him.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Mayweather has a 72" reach not a 66" reach, that is quite a big help when it comes to moving through the weights. Bundrage has a 72" reach as well, he may be a small welterweight but he has the reach of a light middleweight, he has never had to give up a reach disadvantage not even to Corrales.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I struggle to see how being a lightweight is relevant..........

When he decks barkley.........and he doesn't land a punch of significance on Hearns anyway...

It's bull............Might as well have been a lightheavy..

Jab owned him.........pure and simple.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Being a lightweight is the most relevant thing in this, he was naturally a lot smaller than Hearns. He beat Barkley but he wasn't a great boxer like Hearns, he is one of the worst triple world champions there is, give Duran the same reach as Hearns and you'll see a far different fight.

[TRUSSMAN66]

He was the same height as Hagler............You're talking crap......

He didn't land a punch...............So power didn't matter........

Tyson was six inches shorter than most of his opponents..

Garbage plain and simple.

[Boxtthis]

I too think Duran is too high on most lists. To see him ranked above SRL baffles me. But, when we're calling Duran an amateur? Well, it's all going a bit far.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I too think Duran is too high on most lists. To see him ranked above SRL baffles me. But, when we're calling Duran an amateur? Well, it's all going a bit far.

who called him an amateur.......don't wum..

[Hammersmith harrier]

You do talk some nonsense when it comes to Duran, he was a lightweight, he was not a welterweight, he was not a welterweight so the issue of weight and reach is all important. He didn't have the frame of a Mayweather to move up through the weights as successfully, him being able to beat Leonard at all is testament to his abilities.

[Strongback]

Tyson seemed to manage quite well................

Curry beat Mcrory..........Lightweight is irrelevant.........He didn't land a punch...so his power didn't count......

Try moving your head....Is a start.........fought him on the outside......only a pillock does that..

Tyson didn't fight anybody as good as Tommy Hearns.

I'd be surprised if you disputed that.

[TRUSSMAN66]

So he gets a free pass for taking Hearns jab and fighting a taller man on the outside because he's a lightweight..

Barkley was 6ft 1..........

[Hammersmith harrier]

Barkley wasn't anywhere near as good as Hearns, one was an A+ boxer the other a C level fighter, nor did he have a ramrod jab.

[TRUSSMAN66]

No but being a lightweight didn't bother him against Moore and Barkley who were both taller.....

So why should it against Tommy......??

The jab owned him...........watch the fight.........He was clueless..

top 10ers shouldn't be clueless.

[Hammersmith harrier]

As a lightweight he was able to beat fighters of the lower tier but when it came to bigger better boxers he struggled, it's not that hard. If you're trying to compare Moore to Hearns you are barking up the wrong tree. Stick Mayweather in with Hearns and see how he deals with a massive reach disadvantage, he may possibly overcome it but I doubt it.

[Strongback]

So he gets a free pass for taking Hearns jab and fighting a taller man on the outside because he's a lightweight..

Barkley was 6ft 1..........

Hearns had all the advantages and he was a great fighter. Duran was never hit before or after with the bombs Hearns delivered. Few fighters up to light middle could withstand a full on punch from Tommy.


No excuses because Tommy would always beat Duran but Roberto's fight prep was a shambles.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Comes back to my free ride...........

He gets great credit for beating Barkley who was the same size as Hearns........But he's a little bitty lightweight against bully boy Hearns......

Nothing to do with fighting a taller guy on the outside and having his jab glued to his face..

Joke..

[Hammersmith harrier]

He gets credit for beating Barkley because he was an old blown up lightweight who turned it on for one last fight it's that simple.

[TRUSSMAN66]

So an old blown up lightweight beats a 6ft 1 inch middle champ in his prime......

But gets wiped out when he's not an old blown up lightweight.........

interesting.........

[Hammersmith harrier]

Why are you struggling to understand that Barkley is not Hearns, he has neither the power or the skills.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Why don't you understand that being a lightweight doesn't mean you shouldn't move your head..........and not fight a guy six inches taller on the outside !!!

You're a stubborn beast........Maybe you can add your thoughts to my froch-Groves thread

[Boxtthis]

I too think Duran is too high on most lists. To see him ranked above SRL baffles me. But, when we're calling Duran an amateur? Well, it's all going a bit far.

who called him an amateur.......don't wum..

Yep, ok big man. I'm, as well you know, referring to your comments:

Duran didn't seem to know how to slip a jab......I was embarrassed for him..

AMATEUR NIGHT........

No excuse for looking like an amateur

Of course, you'll probably say "I said he looked like an amateur, not that he was an amateur". You know, precisely the kind of comment that you'd yell 'semantics' or 'don't be pedantic' were it made by someone else. Either way, it's enough to make the point that Duran doesn't have a top ten record without resorting to putting an 'amateur' label on him in any fashion. He's one of the mst savvy and professional boxers there was.

Don't wum, pffft extremely, extremely rich comment.

[huw]

Tyson seemed to manage quite well................

Curry beat Mcrory..........Lightweight is irrelevant.........He didn't land a punch...so his power didn't count......

Try moving your head....Is a start.........fought him on the outside......only a pillock does that..

Tyson was a natural heavyweight, the fact he had shorter arms in most of his fights isn't as relevant.

Hearns was also an incredible fighter, if Tyson was to have fought a fighter who was naturally bigger with the freakishly long arms and ability of Hearns he would have been beaten.

Duran had moved up through the weights and as I'm sure I've heard you say there is only one fighter in history who is able to punch harder as they go up in weight.

His shorter arms were a problem in that fight as was the fact he wasn't as good at that weight, add to that it was a fight he was never entitled to win (as was SRL and Hagler). It is the fact he took these fights and Hearns aside gave a good account of himself when everything was against him that make people rate him so highly.

[superflyweight]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

Yeah a far better way is to wait to see what the majority view on a subject is and then support the polar opposite view.

Have come to the view that there's more to Az than that. He's also a wilted ignoramus - so credit where it's due.

[catchweight]

Probably not a coincidence that the guys with circa 20,000 posts talk an awful lot of rubbish. You might think they have a little too much time on their hands and simply post endless repetitive rubbish to amuse themselves.

[azania]

Mayweather has a 72" reach not a 66" reach, that is quite a big help when it comes to moving through the weights. Bundrage has a 72" reach as well, he may be a small welterweight but he has the reach of a light middleweight, he has never had to give up a reach disadvantage not even to Corrales.

Laing was the same size as Duran.

[azania]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

Yeah a far better way is to wait to see what the majority view on a subject is and then support the polar opposite view.

Hardly. But thanks for taking a personal view on my posts. Were I to do the same on someone else, there would be a PM winging its way before I hit the send button.

[azania]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

Yeah a far better way is to wait to see what the majority view on a subject is and then support the polar opposite view.

Have come to the view that there's more to Az than that.  He's also a wilted ignoramus - so credit where it's due.

Well done. After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way. Your choice.

[Rowley]

After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way.

You first.

[Lumbering_Jack]

Mayweather has a 72" reach not a 66" reach, that is quite a big help when it comes to moving through the weights. Bundrage has a 72" reach as well, he may be a small welterweight but he has the reach of a light middleweight, he has never had to give up a reach disadvantage not even to Corrales.

Laing was the same size as Duran.

Duran was 'green' for that fight.

[azania]

Mayweather has a 72" reach not a 66" reach, that is quite a big help when it comes to moving through the weights. Bundrage has a 72" reach as well, he may be a small welterweight but he has the reach of a light middleweight, he has never had to give up a reach disadvantage not even to Corrales.

Laing was the same size as Duran.

Duran was 'green' for that fight.

Wonderful.

[Guest]

After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way.

You first.

I take it you'll be locking this thread too.

[Rowley]

After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way.

You first.

I take it you'll be locking this thread too.

Probably not, two in a day gives me a reputation for grumpiness.

[ShahenshahG]

Joe Louis was an unsavoury character who made Don King appear a reincarnation of Jesus. Original thought trumpeth original sin Shalom.

[azania]

After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way.

You first.

OK, you've baited me smart arse. In what way have I contributed negatively to this thread? Or are you looking to abuse your power again? Just back off. Simple.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Have to go and get my ears burned...........

I appreciate the fact that Duran is a great fighter.......But I'll disagree with anybody who say's 154 had anything to do with the Hearns fight......

Fact was Duran couldn't get past the guy's jab and fought a much taller guy on the outside.......He didn't have a clue.......

Hearns had the greatest jab I've ever seen for sure.........But Duran had to try and move his head and get inside......he didn't.....

He was a rabbit caught in the headlights.......

But that's my opinion and I acknowledge other 606ers disagree and have every right to.......

He'll never be top 10 for me because of Hearns........But 11/20 is fine........

Great great fighter............see you around.

[azania]

After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way.

You first.

I take it you'll be locking this thread too.

Probably not, two in a day gives me a reputation for grumpiness.

I suppose I would be blamed for it even though I was the one being abused. Go figure.

[Rowley]

Don't recall you being blamed for the last one but if playing the victim makes you feel better about yourself knock yourself out.

[Guest]

After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way.

You first.

I take it you'll be locking this thread too.

Probably not, two in a day gives me a reputation for grumpiness.

I suppose I would be blamed for it even though I was the one being abused. Go figure.

Can you take anything for your paranoia...like a really long holiday?

[superflyweight]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

Yeah a far better way is to wait to see what the majority view on a subject is and then support the polar opposite view.

Have come to the view that there's more to Az than that.  He's also a wilted ignoramus - so credit where it's due.

Well done. After you have taken your genitalia out of your hand, perhaps you you can contribute to the thread in a positive way. Your choice.

Never!

[hazharrison]

This thread is a monument to how the witless few drag down this forum (if it is a few - hard to believe there are a handful of posters that clueless with the same warped agendas).

[Hammersmith harrier]

You are right Az that apart from being taller with a longer reach, Laing was the same size as Duran.

[azania]

Don't recall you being blamed for the last one but if playing the victim makes you feel better about yourself knock yourself out.

It's your stock in trade son. No. You're looking to blame me for this one. Tell me what superfly has contributed to this thread. I see no censure on him. Personally I don't care. But if you are to apply the rules, apply them evenly or not at all. And quit being a wuss. It's unbecoming.

Go ahead now. Lock the tread. You have my permission.

[azania]

You are right Az that apart from being taller with a longer reach, Laing was the same size as Duran.

And was Barklay the same size as Duran? Why does th eheight matter with Laing, but bot Barkley and Moore. The simple fact is that Duran had major issues with slick boxers.

[azania]

This thread is a monument to how the witless few drag down this forum (if it is a few - hard to believe there are a handful of posters that clueless with the same warped agendas).

What do you mean by warped agenda? Not rating Louis as high s you want us to is warped? I tell you what is warped and practically insulting to boxing is to rate Louis near Ali.

[Rowley]

Go ahead now. Lock the tread. You have my permission.

Cheers really need that, have made no reference to locking the thread except in reference to Dave's comment. Don't need to blame you for anything, if I viewed you as anything other than a glorified wum I would just ban you, trust me would not have to field a deluge of protests.

[Hammersmith harrier]

He had issues with slick bigger boxers not slick boxers of his own size, Marcel, Buchanan and De Jesus could all box a bit, he beat them all.

[Strongback]

The thing is even though he was a lightweight Duran would probably have knocked Hearn out if he could have jumped high enough to land a punch on his not too stellar chin.

Tommy would have been Top 10 and beaten all the four kings if only he had a chin.

[superflyweight]

I haven't contributed to this thread because there's nothing to contribute to. Same old arguments - same old entrenched positions and hyperbole and tired cliches taking the place of reasoned thought and debate. It's a microcosm of the boxing board as a whole these days.

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