Joe Louis: Why does the majority of this forum not have him as a top 10 ATG ?

[Rodney]

First topic message reminder :

Always surprised when 606v2 compile their p4p ATG lists and Louis ranks well below Ali and rarely features in the top 10. It isn't a common trend most forums and historians have Louis as a shoo in. The UK seem to have a love in with Mayweather who gets vastly overrated and gets placed as a top 10 ATG.
The naked eye proves Joe Louis as a near perfect technician for a boxer , Freddie Roach recently described him as the best text book fighter ever witnessed.

Louis fought in a period where the number of fighters registered was an all time high. Louis does have the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class. Louis lost once 18 months after his professional debut and twice when he was an empty shell. It must be noted that all these losses were against fighters who won the lineal title independantly of their fight with Louis. In between the Schmeling loss and the Charles loss you have a 15 year period where Louis's only questionable decision is a close split decision win over future champion Jersey Joe Walcott at the tail end of his career. In that period he defended his title a record number of times against the Rings no 1 contender.

Surely as a pioneer of boxing, the footage we have and the remarkable record , Louis is a top 10 ATG.

Cheers Rodders

[TopHat24/7]

Won his first title 16 years ago.......

Back to School for Mr Trussman. Maybe try a calculator next time if basic mental arithmetic is beyond you.

[Rowley]

Still think it is reaching a bit, if I was to say Ricky Burns had reigned over 3 years at the top not sure such a comment would be accepted as anything other than nonsense.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Mate like you once said you don't know much about boxing..

Stop trying to turn the subject to Mayweather because he's the one guy you know a little bit about..and you think you can draw me into a slanging match..

I've more than explained myself..

1) You brought Mayweather into this??; and
2) As you so eagerly like to say all the time - nothing you've said rebuts any of the points I've raised.  

You basically full of crap and get wound up that someone with such limited knowledge as myself in comparison can expose you so easily.

too many knowledgeable types to care what you think... 

[TRUSSMAN66]

Still think it is reaching a bit, if I was to say Ricky Burns had reigned over 3 years at the top not sure such a comment would be accepted as anything other than nonsense.

But If Ricky Burns reigned 16 years then the three years would count..

Would they not.

[Rowley]

It is the at the top bit that people take issue with, if you want to say he has been a beltholder for 16 years ("retirement" aside) guess nobody would have issue, but at the top suggests the pinnicle of the sport, which in these days of proliferated world titles is not really the same thing as holding a belt.

Floyd has more than enough real acheivements without overegging it with statements such as this IMO.

[TRUSSMAN66]

You might as well right off the careers of Benn and eubank then.

[Rowley]

You might as well right off the careers of Benn and eubank then.

Why?

[TRUSSMAN66]

They were beltholders..........

Was Mayweather the man at the weight when he won his first title ??

Is eusebio Pedroza great ??

semantics..........

Mayweather was the man at 130.......He's been at the top over 15 years..

[TopHat24/7]

Nobody is saying Benn and Eubank were the best boxers in the world by virtue of the titles they held though.

They were titlists, nothing Rowley has said changes that.

Another Trussfail.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Nobody is saying Benn and Eubank were the best boxers in the world by virtue of the titles they held though.

They were titlists, nothing Rowley has said changes that.

Another Trussfail.

Between me and rowley.......Not to one-trick ponies who belong in the off topic section..cheers.

[TopHat24/7]

Looks like we can add 'not understanding how a forum works' to 'not being able to count'....

[TRUSSMAN66]

Don't derail the thread..looking for an argument because it's the only way you can CONTRIBUTE!!.......Ok Kiddo.

[TopHat24/7]

'derail the thread', ok, I'll remember that response for whenever you come out with the 'no rebuttal' point.

will quit now, before you going crying to the mods again.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I have to go crying once.....Before I can go again..

but do quit now...........please !!

[azania]

Great to see that the arguments I used a couple of years back are now being used by respected and knowledgeable posters.

Carry on.

Haz and strongy you guys are hilarious. No original thought between the pair of you.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Great to see that the arguments I used a couple of years back are now being used by respected and knowledgeable posters.

Carry on..

Mediocrity knows no higher.......Good posters recognise genius Az...........

[hazharrison]

It is the at the top bit that people take issue with, if you want to say he has been a beltholder for 16 years ("retirement" aside) guess nobody would have issue, but at the top suggests the pinnicle of the sport, which in these days of proliferated world titles is not really the same thing as holding a belt.

Floyd has more than enough real acheivements without overegging it with statements such as this IMO.

I'd have an issue. Floyd didn't have a belt 16 years ago.

[TRUSSMAN66]

How pedantic........

Give us a Top 10 historian list so we know who to worship..

[azania]

Duran a top 10 on the back if beating a green SRL. Why isnt Laing up there on the back of thrashing Duran?

[hazharrison]

Great to see that the arguments I used a couple of years back are now being used by respected and knowledgeable posters.

Carry on.

Haz and strongy you guys are hilarious.  No original thought between the pair of you.

Is spouting nonsense classed as being original these days?

You've got one guy living under the assumption his hero has "been on top" since beating a novice in his eleventh fight and another who can't believe boxers who fought in black and white could possibly beat those in colour. Original, I'll grant you.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Great to see that the arguments I used a couple of years back are now being used by respected and knowledgeable posters.

Some people walk paths. Others blaze trails.

[hazharrison]

How pedantic........

Give us a Top 10 historian list so we know who to worship..

Factually accurate is pedantic, also? You guys with your crazy rules.

[hazharrison]

Duran a top 10 on the back if beating a green SRL.  Why isnt Laing up there on the back of thrashing Duran?

THIS IS THE GREATEST POST IN THE HISTORY OF 606.

BOW BEFORE THE KNOWLEDGE AND ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Leonard was green when he lost to Duran, i've heard it all now.

[azania]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

[azania]

Leonard was green when he lost to Duran, i've heard it all now.

His inexperience cost him. Were he more experienced he wouldn't have been drawn into a slugfest. He got suckered by Duran's games. He set the record straight soon after. And again years later.

[Rowley]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

Yeah a far better way is to wait to see what the majority view on a subject is and then support the polar opposite view.

[Rodney]

Nonsense , Leonard planned to move, he was took back by Duran feints and timing. He got beat fair and square off a great fighter.

Cheers Rodders

[TRUSSMAN66]

He moved plenty enough in the second fight..

[hazharrison]

You refuse to use your own eyes instead rely on others to tell you what to think.

 
No. I'm merely not ignorant enough to believe that what limited footage I have seen/information I've read can paint the full picture of boxing's vast history.
 
If you choose to believe that Ray Leonard or Floyd Mayweather was the best fighter who ever lived then good for you.
 
Unfortunately, their achievements (marvellous though they were/are) prohibit them from being ranked as highly as some others in an all-time sense.

[Hammersmith harrier]

So he was green in producing a masterclass against Benitez then ceased to be green in his next fight after losing to Duran 5 months later?

[hazharrison]

Leonard was green when he lost to Duran, i've heard it all now.

His inexperience cost him. Were he more experienced he wouldn't have been drawn into a slugfest.  He got suckered by Duran's games. He set the record straight soon after. And again years later.

Leonard planned to fight that way, only Duran was too good for him. Both fighters gained in defeat (in one of the greatest fights of all time).

[hazharrison]

So he was green in producing a masterclass against Benitez then ceased to be green in his next fight after losing to Duran 5 months later?

LOL

[azania]

Nonsense , Leonard planned to move,  he was took back by Duran feints and timing. He got beat fair and square off a great fighter.

Cheers Rodders

Yep. Due to lack of experience. He moved in the second fight and taught Duran a lesson. As did kirk laing.

[azania]

So he was green in producing a masterclass against Benitez then ceased to be green in his next fight after losing to Duran 5 months later?

Benirez didn't play mind games. That unsettled the inexperienced SRL.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Still in fairness leonard was naughty.....He hoodwinked a fat out of shape Duran into making the 147 weight limit and gave him a masterclass because Duran wasn't ready.....

Not like the first fight where Duran hammered him and won by one point.

[Hammersmith harrier]

That is one of the worst excuses i've ever heard, Duran beat Leonard fair and square then in the rematch Leonard beat Duran fair and square or did he suddenly become shot?

[TRUSSMAN66]

I was being sarcastic..

[Lumbering_Jack]

Duran a top 10 on the back if beating a green SRL.  Why isnt Laing up there on the back of thrashing Duran?

THIS IS THE GREATEST POST IN THE HISTORY OF 606.

BOW BEFORE THE KNOWLEDGE AND ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

Hilarious. I had to double take. A "green SRL" has to be right up there with Gordy's peach about the Klitschko brothers?

[azania]

That is one of the worst excuses i've ever heard, Duran beat Leonard fair and square then in the rematch Leonard beat Duran fair and square or did he suddenly become shot?

Didn't say Duran didn't win fair and square. He did. But his experience counted a lot. Great but close win.

[azania]

Still in fairness leonard was naughty.....He hoodwinked a fat out of shape Duran into making the 147 weight limit and gave him a masterclass because Duran wasn't ready.....

Not like the first fight where Duran hammered him and won by one point.

Leonard used his experience both in and out of the ring in the rematch.

[hazharrison]

Still in fairness leonard was naughty.....He hoodwinked a fat out of shape Duran into making the 147 weight limit and gave him a masterclass because Duran wasn't ready.....

Not like the first fight where Duran hammered him and won by one point.

Leonard used his experience both in and out of the ring in the rematch.

What colour was he then? Amber?

[azania]

Still in fairness leonard was naughty.....He hoodwinked a fat out of shape Duran into making the 147 weight limit and gave him a masterclass because Duran wasn't ready.....

Not like the first fight where Duran hammered him and won by one point.

Leonard used his experience both in and out of the ring in the rematch.

What colour was he then? Amber?

?????

[TRUSSMAN66]

I agree that a lot of Duran's lofty ranking is based on Leonard 1..........Beat mainly crud at lightweight Dejesus and Buchanan not withstanding.......But he still beat them and ruled in fairness

I also believe there isn't a fighter in history who gets the free ride on his "Down" moments as this guy does......

I think Duran's record warrants top 10.......It's just like the "expert" Reg gutteridge I believe no top 10er should be as overmatched as he was against Hearns at a weight he was succesful at........

He was schooled.......

but 11/20 is fine.

[azania]

So why isn't frazier a top 10 guy?

[Hammersmith harrier]

As a heavyweight getting flattened by a fellow heavyweight is more damaging than being a former featherweight getting flattened by Hearns at light middleweight.

[azania]

And getting schooled by Laing? Should we pretend it never happened?

[TRUSSMAN66]

As a heavyweight getting flattened by a fellow heavyweight is more damaging than being a former featherweight getting flattened by Hearns at light middleweight.

Everyone can get caught like Frazier did..........However Duran didn't seem to know how to slip a jab......I was embarrassed for him..

AMATEUR NIGHT........

[Hammersmith harrier]

He was hardly schooled by Laing and again it was a fair way above his best weight, you cannot ignore he was a featherweight who moved up in order to get a title shot.

[Hammersmith harrier]

As a heavyweight getting flattened by a fellow heavyweight is more damaging than being a former featherweight getting flattened by Hearns at light middleweight.

Everyone can get caught like Frazier did..........However Duran didn't seem to know how to slip a jab......I was embarrassed for him..

AMATEUR NIGHT........

It happened to him twice Truss against the same man at his own weight, Duran beating the merely decent Moore and Barkley doesn't make him a light middleweight.

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