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NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues

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NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues Empty NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues

Post by GloriousEmpire Fri 15 Nov 2013, 6:06 pm

Wilkinson "Proved that excessive practice won't make you perfect." Leers the Herald, "but it can drive you crazy."

They go on to mock Wilkinson in their write up of iconic fly halves:"Wilkinson showed hallmarks of obsessive behaviour veering towards mental illness and he acknowledged performing acts of self harm. "

I wonder if Clive is reading?

"He opened a window on fear-based obsession" they chide.

Wow. Someone touched a nerve.

As a fair minded rugby fan of NZ persuasion I feel compelled to distance myself from these bitter remarks. He was and still is a fine player and that kind of gutter talk smacks of cheap journalistic envy.

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 6:11 pm

this is not a nice thread, GE. i know some people who have mental health issues and suffer from depression and bipolar disorders, and i dont think it's an appropriate topic to be making fun of.

if the article is as you suggest i actually think that's pretty shocking and irresponsible. while wilkinson is english, i bet there are lots of people in NZ who struggle with mental health issues who wouldnt find that article quite so amusing.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Fri 15 Nov 2013, 6:12 pm

Yep. I agree. Poor taste. Shocking article. Let me get the link...

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11157926

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Post by Nachos Jones Fri 15 Nov 2013, 6:23 pm

Not the best things said about JW in that article but it was a decent read. I went straight on to YouTube afterwards and watched two of my favourite 10's ever in Mark Ella and Grant Fox.

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Post by Taylorman Fri 15 Nov 2013, 8:44 pm

Stupid comments under wilkos space...saw this though...

"The All Blacks want to present Carter with a cap to commemorate his century of appearances, but initially the RFU said they wouldn't allow that. They didn't want the presentation to be on the field.

They are understood to have backed down now and Carter should be able to receive his cap in full view."

Well thats good of them...wonder if they would have had second thoughts if it was Johnson or Wilko...

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Post by wrfc1980 Fri 15 Nov 2013, 9:48 pm

One rule for the all blacks another for everybody else

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 9:54 pm

why should the RFU allow him to be presented with a cap? home rules.

anyway, i anticipate Lawes giving him something memorable for the occasion...

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Post by Cyril Fri 15 Nov 2013, 9:56 pm

Taylorman wrote:Stupid comments under wilkos space...saw this though...

"The All Blacks want to present Carter with a cap to commemorate his century of appearances, but initially the RFU said they wouldn't allow that. They didn't want the presentation to be on the field.

They are understood to have backed down now and Carter should be able to receive his cap in full view."

Well thats good of them...wonder if they would have had second thoughts if it was Johnson or Wilko...
What's the protocol with that? Does it normally happen for away sides when a player reaches a milestone?

I think it would be a nice gesture, but I guess the home side controls what happens. I can't see that it would give NZ any edge to give Carter his moment.

Hartley wins his 50th cap tomorrow.

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 9:57 pm

Taylorman wrote:Stupid comments under wilkos space...saw this though...

"The All Blacks want to present Carter with a cap to commemorate his century of appearances, but initially the RFU said they wouldn't allow that. They didn't want the presentation to be on the field.

They are understood to have backed down now and Carter should be able to receive his cap in full view."

Well thats good of them...wonder if they would have had second thoughts if it was Johnson or Wilko...
silly comment. no they wouldnt have had second thoughts as wilko and johnno are...ENGLISH.

carter isnt.

lets hope that SKY just edit it out for us. i think it's quite enough that the ABs get to do the haka without giving presents to their players on pitch too. what next, bunch of flowers and a box of friggin chocolates?

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:01 pm

Cyril wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Stupid comments under wilkos space...saw this though...

"The All Blacks want to present Carter with a cap to commemorate his century of appearances, but initially the RFU said they wouldn't allow that. They didn't want the presentation to be on the field.

They are understood to have backed down now and Carter should be able to receive his cap in full view."

Well thats good of them...wonder if they would have had second thoughts if it was Johnson or Wilko...
What's the protocol with that? Does it normally happen for away sides when a player reaches a milestone?

I think it would be a nice gesture, but I guess the home side controls what happens. I can't see that it would give NZ any edge to give Carter his moment.

Hartley wins his 50th cap tomorrow.
there is no protocol. but pathetic examples of an away side whining like this will create more unnecessary precedents, and the pre-match dances, awards etc are going to become more and more common.

FFS, is this rugby or strictly come dancing?

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Post by Taylorman Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:03 pm

so do they not award 100th caps on the field during the match..?
or is it not seen as a milestone?

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:07 pm

rugby is war. its tribal. nz know this better than anyone.

leave the group hugs til after, or in the pub, or when you are the home team as that wold be perfectly understandable war psychology.

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:10 pm

it's like singing swing low during the haka. perfectly acceptable tribal warlike behaviour, just like the haka. and after last year's victory, i predict the singing is going to be very very loud this year.

especially as that may be the last thing the Eng fans get to enjoy tmrw!

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:14 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Stupid comments under wilkos space...saw this though...

"The All Blacks want to present Carter with a cap to commemorate his century of appearances, but initially the RFU said they wouldn't allow that. They didn't want the presentation to be on the field.

They are understood to have backed down now and Carter should be able to receive his cap in full view."

Well thats good of them...wonder if they would have had second thoughts if it was Johnson or Wilko...
What's the protocol with that? Does it normally happen for away sides when a player reaches a milestone?

I think it would be a nice gesture, but I guess the home side controls what happens. I can't see that it would give NZ any edge to give Carter his moment.

Hartley wins his 50th cap tomorrow.
there is no protocol. but pathetic examples of an away side whining like this will create more unnecessary precedents, and the pre-match dances, awards etc are going to become more and more common.

FFS, is this rugby or strictly come dancing?
every cap is a milestone. 100caps is 100 milestones, which is a milestone of milestones. what piss1s me off is the fact that nzru asked if they could do it on field then obviously leaked it when they were told no. that is what is pathetic.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:24 pm

Only Jason Leonard has over 100 caps for England. He got to run out first but I can't recall a presentation.

Anyone know what happened with any other NH players in the professional era?

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:29 pm

leonard got his 100th cap by being subbed on as blood substitute for 2 mins...

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Post by quinsforever Fri 15 Nov 2013, 10:31 pm

take that back...wiki says it was against france in 2003 6N

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Post by nathan Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:34 pm

what a pathetic article that was, poor poor journo. Wilkinsons depression came from being constantly injured, nothing to do with his obsession of practicing.

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Post by Cyril Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:41 pm

nathan wrote:what a pathetic article that was, poor poor journo. Wilkinsons depression came from being constantly injured, nothing to do with his obsession of practicing.
It wasn't great, was it? Still, it provided GE with another opportunity to put the cat among the pigeons Rolling Eyes 

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Post by TJ Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:42 pm

Mental health issues are a part of all of us. No doubt at times Wilkinson was a tortured soul. His obsessive nature made him the player he was. He seems to have found more peace in recent years.

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Post by nathan Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:45 pm

TJ wrote:Mental health issues are a part of all of us.  No doubt at times Wilkinson was a tortured soul.  His obsessive nature made him the player he was.  He seems to have found more peace in recent years.
It had nothing to do with him being obsessed with rugby, it was purely because of all the injuries.

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Post by nathan Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:47 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Wilkinson "Proved that excessive practice won't make you perfect." Leers the Herald, "but it can drive you crazy."

They go on to mock Wilkinson in their write up of iconic fly halves:"Wilkinson showed hallmarks of obsessive behaviour veering towards mental illness and he acknowledged performing acts of self harm. "

I wonder if Clive is reading?

"He opened a window on fear-based obsession" they chide.

Wow. Someone touched a nerve.

As a fair minded rugby fan of NZ persuasion I feel compelled to distance myself from these bitter remarks. He was and still is a fine player and that kind of gutter talk smacks of cheap journalistic envy.
quick question, what do you mean by that?

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Post by Cyril Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:53 pm

nathan, don't expect a reply. It's just GE point-scoring. This time he's using mental health rather than homophobia or the next thing that comes into his head.

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Post by Looseheaded Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:04 am

stupid stupid article written by a stupid stupid man

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Post by Cyril Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:05 am

Looseheaded wrote:stupid stupid article written by a stupid stupid man
+1

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:10 am

If Wilko did have mental health issues and the herald did joke about them, then that's repugnant on their behalf. Illness is not a joke
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Post by Cyril Sat 16 Nov 2013, 1:13 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Wilko did have mental health issues and the herald did joke about them, then that's repugnant on their behalf. Illness is not a joke
It's difficult to say whether they were actually 'joking' but when you've got a paragraph on each fly-half and they decide to dedicate half of Jonny's write-up to that it makes you wonder why they decided to do it.

Pretty sickening to be honest.

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Post by blackcanelion Sat 16 Nov 2013, 1:36 am

It's an article by Rattue. He's NZ's answer to Stephen Jones. Enough said.

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Post by quinsforever Sat 16 Nov 2013, 1:46 am

that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 1:58 am

That article deserves no credibility.  Maybe a thread like this illustrates how damage can be done without ever meeting and assessing a person.  I know a few of the docs who work for Toulon.  They all rave about what a terrific and grounded young man he is.  

This author of this toilet tissue article and all of us here have so much less contact with this fine young man to even venture a guess.  Yet he is still he is accused of behaviour 'quirks'.  
Shocking.
Pathetic.
Virtually libelous.
And he seems the type to let it all roll off his back.  

But his teammate Carl Heyman is a nice big boy who will one day return to NZ.  Hopefully he places a visit to this p.o.s.

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Post by blackcanelion Sat 16 Nov 2013, 2:35 am

quinsforever wrote:that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.
Take a deep breath mate. I'm not apologizing for him, or justifying him. In my opinion the guys a *%^&er. He's a wind up merchant. The purpose of many of his posts appears to be to polarise readers and get a response. The only reason I raised Jones is I think he is similar and I hoped anyone reading the site would recognize that I'm saying don't take the guy seriously. To equate him with Stephen Jones is about as cutting a comment as I could make (I detest him as a journalist). Mental health is a serious issue. My best mate is a former international athlete who struggles with bipolar disorder. I'm dealing with another friend who is depressed and may be borderline suicidal because of bad decisions he's made recently. I'm well aware of implications of belittling depression.


Last edited by blackcanelion on Sat 16 Nov 2013, 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by rainbow-warrior Sat 16 Nov 2013, 5:32 am

Taylorman wrote:so do they not award 100th caps on the field during the match..?
or is it not seen as a milestone?
Gethin Jenkins get's his 100 the same day Taylor, not sure what will happen at the MS.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 16 Nov 2013, 6:20 am

Cyril wrote:
nathan wrote:what a pathetic article that was, poor poor journo. Wilkinsons depression came from being constantly injured, nothing to do with his obsession of practicing.
It wasn't great, was it? Still, it provided GE with another opportunity to put the cat among the pigeons Rolling Eyes 

And didnt the pigeons fly.,..

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Post by nganboy Sat 16 Nov 2013, 8:35 am

quinsforever wrote:that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.
I don't think you should mock people with anger managment issues and a reformed alcoholic should be congratulated and supported and not denigrated for an addiction. If you don't like his writing attack the writing not the man old chap.
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Post by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 9:55 am

nganboy wrote:
quinsforever wrote:that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.
I don't think you should mock people with anger managment issues and a reformed alcoholic should be congratulated and supported and not denigrated for an addiction. If you don't like his writing attack the writing not the man old chap.
Just wow...

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Post by stub Sat 16 Nov 2013, 9:57 am

nathan wrote:
nganboy wrote:
quinsforever wrote:that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.
I don't think you should mock people with anger managment issues and a reformed alcoholic should be congratulated and supported and not denigrated for an addiction. If you don't like his writing attack the writing not the man old chap.
Just wow...
I know... Shocked 

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 10:06 am

To be fair, ngan is pointing out that bringing up "reformed alcoholic" is inappropriate and hypocritical. The main point should be that a) Rattue has acted revoltingly
B) he is an awful writer and journalist and has been for years and in the opinion of every person, kiwi and non-kiwi, whose opinion I know on the matter
C) being a terrible journalist, especially a borderline libellous one willing to almost lie to provide the story they want, should in my opinion result in one having one's licence to write for a national newspaper or journal indefinitely revoked. Poor journalism in sports is mostly just annoying but it is journalism nonetheless and I am of the opinion that poor journalism is every bit as dangerous and should be every bit as clamped down on as poor medical practice.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 16 Nov 2013, 10:12 am

What about Orson Scott Card? The writing's fine, if that's your cup of tea, but the man himself and his views invite attack.

I think people are getting overheated on this thread. It's a contemptible piece and Rattue stepped way over the mark to prove a point about a harmless point with a misleading title in the English press. No one can or has to defend Rattue on this one. He dug his hole and now he must lie in it. Unfortunately the coverage he receives for this will be misinterpreted as a justification and the same bilge will be dredged up again in the future.

Today is a match both sides have been looking forward to. Let's not give idiots like Rattue any more attention.

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Post by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 10:16 am

That is even low for the herald... Disgusting

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Post by Hood83 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 10:35 am

quinsforever wrote:that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.
Sorry quins, I think your response may be a case of 'two wrongs...' GE had it right in his OP. An awful piece that diminishes the author, any right-minded person, Kiwi or otherwise, can see that.

Shall we pretend it hasn't happened and move onto something else?

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Post by Hood83 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 10:38 am

Hood83 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:that is a typically pathetic response canelion. you are excusing his writing by comparing it to someone else. so hitler was europe's answer to genghis khan. so that makes it all ok.

you are a sad apologist for an embittered, angry, reformed-alcoholic journalist.
Sorry quins, I think your response may be a case of 'two wrongs...' GE had it right in his OP. An awful piece that diminishes the author, any right-minded person, Kiwi or otherwise, can see that.

Shall we pretend it hasn't happened and move onto something else?
I should confess, I skim-read it. Looking again it was marginally more even handed than I gave credit. I think it was completely unnecessary to mention JW's record in the context of his mental health though, very poor form.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 10:43 am

Not what you could call a completely balanced piece but at least you provided your source this time so we can see which parts of the quote you've left out.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 11:28 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:To be fair, ngan is pointing out that bringing up "reformed alcoholic" is inappropriate and hypocritical. The main point should be that a) Rattue has acted revoltingly
B) he is an awful writer and journalist and has been for years and in the opinion of every person, kiwi and non-kiwi, whose opinion I know on the matter
C) being a terrible journalist, especially a borderline libellous one willing to almost lie to provide the story they want, should in my opinion result in one having one's licence to write for a national newspaper or journal indefinitely revoked. Poor journalism in sports is mostly just annoying but it is journalism nonetheless and I am of the opinion that poor journalism is every bit as dangerous and should be every bit as clamped down on as poor medical practice.
mate - agree.
Nothing to add.

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Post by Cowshot Sat 16 Nov 2013, 11:33 am

I was struck by the similarity between the author here and the author in NZ. Intent of both articles, style of abuse... Are they related?

Oh, and I seem to recall being told that Rattue started out in these islands and emigrated to NZ. Is that true? Or are NZ entirely responsible for him?

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NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues Empty Re: NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues

Post by Notch Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:03 pm

My main concern with this is that it seems to imply that Wilkinsons practice sessions were so obsessive as to be symptoms of a mental illness. That is a very lazy assumption and very probably untrue.

There's a hell of a massive difference between obsessively practicing a skill to be the best and an obsessive compulsive disorder, which is what he implies. An obsessive compulsive disorder is when you must repeat certain tasks to reduce a debilitating amount of anxiety and intrusive thoughts and potentially irrational beliefs (i.e. I must turn the lights on and off multiple times or my parents will die). The compulsions and obsessive rituals OCD sufferers often go through are just a symptom of their illness, a psychological coping mechanism to help them get through the awful way that they are feeling and giving them a way to distract themselves from unwanted, intrusive thoughts.

Just being obsessive as a personality trait isn't enough to be OCD, and there is no evidence that JW wanted to do anything other than be the best goal kicker in world rugby. Of course being obsessive about something can make you vulnerable psychologically when your ability to do that thing is taken away. He did suffer from depression related to the injuries he suffered and the mental pressure he put on himself to recover and his blog on it is well worth a read; I wish the NZ Herald had done the same.

http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/blog/jonny-wilkinson-%E2%80%93-physical-and-mental-battle-sporting-hero

Depression often happens when we have things in our life we can't control that stand in the way of what we perceive we need to be happy. When those negative thoughts lead to other negative thoughts about our selves and our situation, we get into a vicious cycle of negativity and that can lead to clinical depression which is a very serious condition. From reading Wilkinsons blog it seems like that is exactly what happened to him and I think it's brilliant that he's spoken out about it and raised awareness.

Whilst this hasn't been a positive thread I think its a good chance to set the record straight on mental health in Sport! All professions with huge amounts of pressure have higher than average incidences of MH problems and sport is no different.
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NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues Empty Re: NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues

Post by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:13 pm

When discussing an individual and mental traits and/or issues one most understand there are infinite causes and infinite conditions.

Pigeonholeing individuals isn't helpfull to individuals

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NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues Empty Re: NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues

Post by doctor_grey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 12:52 pm

mystiroakey wrote:When discussing an individual and mental traits and/or issues one most understand there are infinite causes and infinite conditions.

Pigeonholeing individuals isn't helpfull to individuals
Besides we play Rugby. We are all effing nuts. Let's end this discussion. Goes nowhere, really.

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NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues Empty Re: NZ Herald Rebuttal : Wilkinson Had Mental Health Issues

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