England vs New Zealand: Player Ratings (ours and the press')

First topic message reminder :

So, After watching the game in less than perfect circumstances yesterday in the middle of a rowing race, I've rewatched and tried to rate players from both sides today. I'll also link in all the press ratings I can find, please comment, add your own and add any press ratings I have missed

Warning all my stats are from ESPN and therefore probably dismal
ENGLAND

15- Mike Brown (BIAS ALERT)- continues his great form, strong in the air and showing his usual strengths going forward but also absolutely immense in defence. Not the perfect player but England player of the AIs with his strength and attitude. 8/10. Stats shot: made 6 tackles and missed none, beat 7 defenders
14- Chris Ashton - tried hard but still positionally defending poorly and England's stodgy midfield does not use his strengths. He wasn't actually that bad but needs a rest because even in great Sarries form he is not delivering for England in their style, and I would start Wade who can create something from nothing unless we drastically alter/improve the rest of our backs. 5.5/10. Stat attack: Made both his tackles (but not always in position in the game and too narrow) - 5 carries for 15m.
13- Joel Tomkins- thought he was actually OK against Argentina. Here he killed all momentum he received with either mistakes or stodge. Maybe he deserves more time but not clicked in that easily. Tempting to put in a nimbler player like Trinder or Eastmond until Manu is fit again. 4/10. Stats central: missed 2 tackles, turned over the ball more than any other player (3 times as a centre!) and made no passes, admittedly with limited ball.
12- Billy Twelvetrees- again a mixed bag with some lovely half-break wriggles through the centre, making yards and tons of endeavour. Often offside, did not pass much to Tomkins at all which effectively meant that our back 3 never get ball in open game. Chargedown was lucky not to be costly. Great attitude, needs more composure, but if he gets that he has the talent to spark the backs. Vital if. 6/10. Stats ahoy: 55 metres made, only 4 passes out of 20 touches.
11- Ben Foden- decent but quiet game out of position. Took the try that wasn't from the intercept well. Loved it when he messed up a kick under pressure, then made up for it by a brilliant kick chase on Dagg, then a run back to make a vital tackle. Needs to play at FB if anywhere or off the bench and I would use both him and Brown at FB in the 6N and future with a horses for courses approach and both have different strengths. 5.5/10 Stats and lies: only 6 metres off 4 runs and 3 made tackles with one missed but then didn't really get any ball to use.
10- Owen Farrell- doesn't spark the backline but he is improving in this regard and frankly neither of his centres helped him. Great gritty attitude marred by an awful dive. Good defence and icy kicking, terrible chip attempt at one point. I think he had a decent gaem actually overall and his management was good. 7/10. Stat blaster: 8/0 in tackling and some were big, 100% kicking for once
9- Lee Dickson- good service IMO, managed the pack well, box-kicked ok but occasionally shipped it when he should have boxed himself. Occasional snipe to keep ABs thinking would have been nice.He has impressed and surprised me. 7/10. Stats are where it's at: Only kicked 4 times and probably should have done more.

BTW great physicality from the whole pack and they worked together really well in mauls, rucks, scrums and drives.
8- Billy Vunipola- couldn't go the full 80 but looked really good. Needs to sometimes not tuck the ball to open up at least the opportunity for the offload but worked hard, and troubled the All Black defence every time he ran. Needs to work on control at the base. Definitely going to be a really classy player in a couple of years, Sarries have improved his game. 7/10 (was 7 until I remembered how he committed himself to Read for no reason in NZ's first try, which was a big and costly error). Running out of other ways to say stats: Only beat one defender but made 59m, the most in the English side.
7- Chris Robshaw (BIAS ALERT)- led from the front, really good leadership, talking to the ref and decision making and work at the breakdown and defence. Didn't see his handling game today and I'd like to see England utilise that. Missed one tackle he shouldn't have on Franks. 7/10 Stats: made 9/1 tackles, despite what people have been saying only conceded 1 penalty.
6- Tom Wood- impressive game with some big hits and good lineout work when his teammate Hartley was throwing. Probably could have carried more but obviously another leader for England and together with Robshaw his fitness and workrate in all aspects lets us play 2 heavy-duty carrying 8s in the 23 and not suffer. 7/10. Stats: 5 lineout takes and 5 tackles
5- Courtney Lawes- really good game IMO, led the lineout well and I take back what I've said about his show-ponyness. Made lots of tackles and tried to drive the man back every time, and showed some deft hands and made hard yards. 7.5/10. Stats: 6/0 at the lineout and 7/0 in defence.
4- Joe Launchbury- really good 5.5, like having another flanker in the ruck. Usually part of the workrate trio with Captain Fantastic and Wood, but did less this match than the last couple. Underused in lineout and didn't have to make many tackles. Well taken try. May be worth letting Attwood have a go in the 6N for at least one game as we know Launch is good enough and should build depth. 7/10 (went up 0.5 for try). Stats: One try but not as many touches (9) or tackles (2) as I'd expect.
3- Dan Cole. Decent match but unlucky to be in a compromising position in defence a couple of times. Scrummaged well as expected and grew throughout the match here. The Kiwi commentators thought NZ did well in the scrums but I actually think they were a tad lucky with their wheeling. Rucked hard but also did less work than we've seen in the past. 6.5/10. Stats: Only touched the ball once but made 4 tackles to one miss.
2- Dylan Hartley- good before his unfortunate injury, miles better at the lineout than T Youngs and worked hard with the ball he had, though could have carried more as he is a good option there. Missed some tackles but together with his props scrummaged well. 7/10- Stats: made all his throws, 4/2 in defence
1- Joe Marler (BIAS ALERT)- proved some doubters wrong. Got an edge over Franks in the scrum as the match progressed and worked really hard in defence. carried a bit but this part of his game still seems a shadow of his Club game, and he didn't show any offloads that I'd expect of him. Good showing for 3rd choice LH. 7/10. Stats: 6/0 in tackles, only 6 m for 6 carries
Subs- Props got little game time at all, T Youngs needs to work hard on his throwing. Not sure what was going wrong but it really made the last 20 mins incredibly hard for England. Parling reduced the impact our pack was making, Morgan looked in good nick and made 21 m and 3 tackles, B Youngs wasn't great but NZ were competing better at rucks at that point. Too slow once the ball was out though. Flood was pretty poor to be honest in every respect but also suffered from players around him, Goode didn't have the time to do anything.


NEW ZEALAND - shorter bits as I'm tired and have spent too long on this:

15- Israel Dagg- solid game, some nice touches and kicking and good pass for Read's try. 7.5/10. An assist and 50m.
14- Chales Pitau- looked dangerous and good in the air, needs to learn the rules re the quick lineout and not always in position. 7/10. Also 50m
13- Ben Smith- not fitted in at 13 yet but still made Tomkins look like the one out of position. Nice recovery work at several points. Solid, probably better on the wing if another 13 becomes available. 7/10. uninteresting stats
12- Ma'a Nonu- Great set up for try 3. Worked hard in defence but also missed tackles. Hard running in attack buit to little avail, hands were slick though. 7.5/10. Assist and 11/2 in D.
11- Julian Savea - 2 top finishes, so strong and natural at that part of his game. Improved under the high ball. Terrible defence but made up for it with his attack. NOT my MOTM. 8.5/10. 2 tries and 72m but 0/3 in D
10- Dan Carter- Solid before he went of, lovely chip to B Smith and was kicking well and dictating play but sadly short stay in the game. 6.5/10 - made 3/0 as England ran down his channel
Aaron Cruden- Not his best game but kicked pretty well and attacked the line. Not looking as devastating as in the Summer and last season. 7/10. Missed a kick but made 7/0 tackles
9- Aaron Smith- Not great, passed well but disrupted a bit by England at rucks at scrums. Box-kicked poorly. Worked hard in defence. 5.5/10. Made 5m only and 2 turnovers.
8- Kieran Read- Immense. unlucky with yellow which was correct due to the penalty after a stream of others but could have been a penalty to NZ with England holding on when Messam competed. Great set up, great try, great work rate and breakdown work. Best player in the world right now. 9.5/10. 1 yellow but only 1 penalty, 51m made, 1 assist, 1 try, 10/0 tackling, 1 clean break, 3 lineout takes, nearly perfect but for the yellow.
7- Richie McCaw- not his best but worked hard when Read was off to minimalise the effect. Got frustrated as a 7 and a captain but it was his control and calls for patience that helped edge the ABs back into the game and score the winning try. 7/10. 15/0 in defence
6- Liam Messam- Solid game, high workload and good on the floor. Better than McCaw generally but didn't have the job of captaining 7/10. 12/1 in defence
5- Luke Whitelock- huge shift in defence and immense in the air. Not much carrying and too many penalties. Outplayed in ruck 7.5/10. 19/0 tackles, 2 penalties, 4/0 in lineout.
4- Brodie Rettalick- Messed up a lineout early on, solid game but not exceptional.  5/10. 1/1 lineout
3- Owen Franks- second best in scrum across the match, some great tackles though included on Brown and a great break and run. 6/10. 11/2 in defence
2- Kevin Mealamu - Worked hard, not effective in rucks though and little ball in hand, meh game. 6/10. 10/1 in defence
1- Tony Woodcock- beaten in scrums, made his tackles but did nothing in terms of carrying. 5/10.

Subs- Luatua worked hard, Crockett good work on floor but silly to give away penalty which could have been worse, Kerr-Barlow not that reassuring, where is Perenara? Cruden has his own section above.



http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/16/england-new-zealand-players-rated
15 Mike Brown 8/10 If every Englishman had his levels of brio and defiance, 1066 would never have happened. And then there's the skill and pace. His second half. was quite something

14 Chris Ashton 5/10 Still not going his way, but he can't be faulted for energy and effort. The timing remains elusive, and he ruined one attack with a silly kick, but ruined one of theirs, too, with an intercept.

13 Joe Tomkins 4/10 Was heading for a two at half-time. Nothing was working for him. Every touch resulted in a turnover. But much improved in second half. – to his credit.

12 Billy Twelvetrees 7/10 Lots of energy and involvement. Looked threatening on the gainline, although couldn't quite get the ball away like an All Black might have. His best game of the autumn.

11 Ben Foden 6/10 Nothing spectacular, although that interception would have been nice, but he was solid in defence and an option in support, once to great effect at the end of the first half.

10 Owen Farrell 7/10 Perfect with the boot and very lively with ball in hand. But the back division still not purring like a sports car. Is that his fault? Has to be, partly.

9 Lee Dickson 5/10 A couple of good clearances in the first half and always looking for action. But he looked too hard for it when he overcommitted for All Blacks' first try.

1 Joe Marler 7/10 Part of a scrum that had New Zealand's in all kinds of bother in the first half. He continued with his bristling carries from last week. A headache at loosehead for Lancaster.

2 Dylan Hartley 8/10 His 50th cap is one he should remember fondly. Immaculate at the lineout and a handful in the loose. Lineout deteriorated when he left

3 Dan Cole 6/10 A relentless drill bit burrowing into the heart of the All Blacks' set piece. But he conceded an early penalty and his opposite number left him for dead in build-up to the second try.

4 Joe Launchbury 8/10 Unbelievably good for the 45 minutes he was on the field before an injury interrupted it. Carry after carry, offloads, lineout takes, mauls and a try

5 Courtney Lawes 9/10 England's second-rows were brilliant. See the entry above. Lawes did the same, only more of it, because he stayed on for the whole game. Deserved to be on the winning side.

6 Tom Wood 7/10 Excellent match, better even than last year's when he was never man of the match. A presence at the breakdown and his soft hands were regularly involved

7 Chris Robshaw (capt) 6/10 Tireless industry, as always, and often on hand to keep moves alive. His black eye deserves a point, but isn't getting one. Conceding penalties, though, loses him one

8 Billy Vunipola 8/10 Really starting to impose himself, and not just in fits and starts. A fantastic hour's work, although he was suckered for the early try. King of the restarts.

REPLACEMENTS Geoff Parling (for Launchbury 46); Tom Youngs (Hartley 51); Ben Morgan (Vunipola 59); Ben Youngs (Dickson 65); Toby Flood (Farrell 68); Alex Goode (Tomkins 77); Matt Mullan (Marler 77).

NEW ZEALAND

15 Israel Dagg 7/10 He is master of all he surveys at the back. Rarely hassled into anything as vulgar as a mistake. Put Read away for his try, but forced one run and was tackled into touch.

14 Charles Piutau 6/10 A thorn in the side at the breakdown and a couple of darts but not quite displaying the brilliance of last weekend. Still, one All Black takes a back seat, others step forward.

13 Ben Smith 7/10 High quality, as always. One of the stars of this annus mirabilis for the All Blacks. Moves to centre with no discernible drop-off. Beat his opposite man in buildup to second try.

12 Ma'a Nonu 7/10 Two points for that offload alone. It typified the All Blacks. One minute you think you're beating them, the next they do a thing like that. A couple of tricky dinks early on, but otherwise quiet.

11 Julian Savea 9/10 Two tries, but that was the least of it. Full of running and offloads. Loses half a mark for offloading once to Ashton at the end of another run, but half-marks don't show up here.

10 Dan Carter 6/10 A great shame. His 100th cap ended with the great man hobbling off in the 26th minute. Up until then he'dcross-kicked, distributed and converted with the usual aplomb

9 Aaron Smith 6/10 He's a neat player. Sent one out on the full early on, but you don't pull off some of the manoeuvres New Zealand did without a sharp operator at scrum-half

1 Tony Woodcock 4/10 An afternoon of indignity that a centurion shouldn't have to endure. Some good close-quarter work, but in trouble at scrum time and also guilty of an obstruction.

2 Keven Mealamu 5/10 His lineout was accurate, but he had a poor first half at the scrum and around the field, all of which improved significantly in the second half. On balance, OK.

3 Owen Franks 5/10 Great rumble in the buildup to New Zealand's second try, but his first duty is to scrummage, and he felt the heat there.

4 Brodie Retallick 7/10 New Zealand's best tight forward, he put in a hard afternoon's work. Lovely little inside ball to send Franks away. Never shies from tackling.

5 Sam Whitelock 6/10 Strangely muted in the first half, but put in a much better shift in the second, when he rose to take lineouts and looked for work as a carrier

6 Liam Messam 6/10 The All Blacks' Mr Fix-It, he made a lot of messy stuff tidy again. Terrifying when leading the haka, he's not very much less intimidating on the field

7 Richie McCaw 7/10 Game of two halves. Muted in the first and, for once, got on the wrong side of the ref. But in the second, ie when it mattered, he came through very strongly

8 Kieran Read 9/10 Probably should be an 8, because he made a couple of key errors, not least being sent to the bin. But that first 20 minutes of his was so good. Without it, they would have lost

REPLACEMENTS Aaron Cruden (for Carter 26) Pulls the strings with some skill 7 Wyatt Crockett (Woodcock ht) Helped re-establish order 7 Charlie Faumuina (Franks 42); Dane Coles (Mealamu 59); Steven Luatua (Messam 65); Tawera Kerr-Barlow (A Smith 70); Ryan Crotty (Piutau 72).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10454128/England-v-New-Zealand-Player-ratings.html

England
Mike Brown
Another fine display of classic modern-day full back play; solid and with a good kick chase. Some of his cover tackling was quite heroic. 8/10
Chris Ashton
Average again. One dreadful decision to kick the ball away in New Zealand's 22 will haunt him. You just can't do that. 5
Joel Tomkins
Oh dear. Has just not cut it in this series. Penalised for holding on and knocked on twice in the first half alone. 4
Billy Twelvetrees
He had a solid game without doing anything eye-catching. He was never shown up physically but he never escaped from the New Zealand defence. 6
Ben Foden
Ran away for a long-range `try' that was disallowed, but otherwise struggled to involve himself. England need a winger here. 6
Owen Farrell
Another mixed bag. He kicked well off the floor but was horribly exposed for lack of a left foot once. Was always competitive but still the England back line will not click. 6
Lee Dickson
He was decent but little more. He snapped away, passed and kicked competently. He made one good quick tap but otherwise was no threat. 6
Joe Marler
His scrummaging has improved and it could be that the loss of the injured Alex Corbisiero might not be as keenly felt as was first thought. 7
Dylan Hartley
He led England out on his 50th cap and again proved that his extra bulk makes England such a potent scrummaging outfit. 7
Dan Cole
Back in the side and making a point as part of an excellent scrummaging effort from England. 7
Joe Launchbury
Scored a try and had an outstanding first half in the tight and loose, but left the field early in the second half clutching a shoulder. 7
Courtney Lawes
Another excellent effort. He has been one of England's great positives. Carried, tackled and ran the line out really well until late wobbles. 8
Tom Wood
He enjoyed another fine match to add to his autumn collection, with one tackle on Kieran read the highlight. 7
Chris Robshaw
His ugly, swollen eye told the story. His was another afternoon of courageous, unyielding work. He has had a very good autumn. 7
Billy Vunipola
A superb performance of powerful ball-carrying. Always willing to truck it up from the re-starts in what was probably his best performance for England. 8
Replacements: Ben Morgan stood out most with some of his influential carrying. England now have two excellent carrying eights. Tom Youngs' line-out throwing was not brilliant.
New Zealand
Israel Dagg
Not his most astonishing game but he was still safe and he put in Kieran Read for New Zealand's second try. 7
Charles Piutau
What a talent he is, always dangerous, always making yards and always looking for work. 8
Ben Smith
Nearly escaped once in the first half after collecting Dan Carter's delicate chip ahead but was not outstanding otherwise. 6
Ma'a Nonu
A quite brilliant pass out of the tackle to provide Savea with his second try. One superb kick early on. Experience showed when it mattered. 7
Julian Savea
Two tries and always a threat with his pace and power. Did exceptionally well to score the second try after Mike Brown's superb tackle. 9
Dan Carter
Lasted just 25 minutes on his 100th cap to be replaced by Aaron Cruden. Had shown some lovely touches and a variety of kicks up until then. 5
Aaron Smith
Quick service but kicked poorly, twice kicking straight out. Did not offer a threat in attack but made his share of tackles. 6
Tony Woodcock
Departed at half time with a hamstring injury to be replaced by Wyatt Crockett. It was a difficult afternoon for New Zealand at the scrummage. 5
Keven Mealamu
Not necessarily his most outstanding game but he made an awful lot of tackles and counter-rucked once superbly in the first half to win ball. 6
Owen Franks
Had made a brilliant break to start Kieran Read's first-half try and put in one huge hit on Mike Brown, but he also departed early in the second half. 6
Brodie Retallick
Made a superb pass to put Franks through in the first half for Read's try, but was not the influence that his partner Sam Whitelock was. 6
Samuel Whitelock
It was his 50th cap and he produced an astonishing work-rate in the loose, making 18 tackles. 8
Liam Messam
Did what a good blindside does, cleaned up at line outs, made his tackles and was always physical. 7
Richie McCaw
He was not man of the match, which is a novelty in itself, but he still made more tackles than anyone else and was always an influence. 7
Kieran Read
Brilliant hands for Savea's first try, and a try himself, but was also sin-binned. But there was still enough dexterity and class for it to palpably obvious why he is in line for the IRB player of the year award. 8
Replacements: Aaron Cruden is not Carter but he worked hard and certainly did not let his side down. In truth none of the others made an impact. New Zealand's star players were those who stayed on the field.

Im assuming at NZ they are simply drilled with the skills at an early age and positions are not even considered.

So what age do they start sorting out positions, physical attirubes like pace, strength etc?

GeordieFalcon wrote:The difference between NZ's backs and ours is quite frightening...which makes our close scoreline all the more impressive. It shows how good our forwards were on the day. I dont think they played as well v OZ or Argentina, but rose to the occasion.

But thats the difference with the AB's..they have players that have vision and the skills to put that vision in to action.

We have rumbling, ponderous, defensive guys who are so slow to react to situations by the time they wake up there are 3 opposition defenders all over him and the pack need to rescue it and start again...
We cant even pass that well...half the time its behind a player or to their feet. Only Twelvetrees in that whole backline is actually able to pass very well...and thats alarming.

Whilst I'd agree the passing as a whole is very poor I'd say Youngs and Farrell can pass as well just Twelvetrees was the only one to show it in the AI's. The really frustrating thing now IMO is that I think the players are there to improve the back play drastically we just don't want to pick them.

1.Get Farrell to play flatter. By many accounts he wants to anyway and showed on the Lions tour he can do if given the chance and right players around him.
2.Get some pace and magic on the wings. Between Wade, Yarde, May and even Eastmond we have guys with good all round skill sets, an abundance of pace and great footwork. Please can we use them!
3.In the absence of Tuilagi let's partner Billy with a 13 who is capable of using those wings. This in my eyes means someone with the pace to attack in the wider channels and passing game to release players outside him - step up Trinder and Daly.

People will immediately point to defence as a weakness but Farrell is more than capable of marshaling a defensive line especially aided by the shift Cole, Launchberry, Lawes, Wood and Robshaw will give you in defence. Also need to consider just how solid Brown has proven himself to be at the back, the fact that Twelvetrees groundwork is very strong for a centre and Wade/Yarde/May offering better defense than Ashton or an out of position Foden. Please let's try something new!

For me Daly should have been eyeing that spot but he seems to be playing 15 more than anything.

Yep playing him at 15 has frustrated me but given his talent I'd still say he's the best option at 13 along with Trinder if we're looking for a more attacking game plan. Especially in the absence of Manu.

His kicking game alongside Twelvetrees would also offer a very useful get out of jail option when clearing from the 22 which could take some pressure of the half-backs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:For me Daly should have been eyeing that spot but he seems to be playing 15 more than anything.

Sadly, I think he's been encouraged to play there by England! He's already stated 13 is his preference. Why, I don't know. We have Fullbacks coming out of our ears. Here's a list off the top of my head who could've started (in theory) any of these AI games:

Mike Brown
Ben Foden
Alex Goode
Nick Adendanon
Matthew Tait
Anthony Watson
Luke Arscott
Elliiot Daly
Ben Ransom
Rob Cook
Tom Homer

It gets a bit more abstract towards the end but there are others. Compare that to a list of 13's and the options are less well stocked:

Manu Tuilagi
Henry Trinder
George Lowe
Joel Tomkins
Jonathan Joseph

Unless we're resorting to Mike Tindall I don't know of many other serious options. Matt Hopper perhaps although I don't think he's exactly a Test player. The point being that why try and convert Daly to a FB where we're short enough at OC?

If I list the players I'd be comfortable (not necessarily advocate though!) starting a test in each position at the moment the decision gets even stranger Chjw131:

Full back - Brown, Foden, Tait, Goode, Abendanon, Watson

Outside centre - Tuilagi, Trinder

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im assuming at NZ they are simply drilled with the skills at an early age and positions are not even considered.

So what age do they start sorting out positions, physical attirbutes like pace, strength etc?

Down here for a lot of players its not an age thing its getting a position so you can make a team.

An example being Nonu, he has played centre, wing, and 2nd5, as he was from Wellington he had to find a place that wasnt already taken by the likes of tana Umaga or a young Conrad Smith.

Keven Mealamu was a Openside flanker up till the age of about twenty, although his stature and pace arent ideal for an openside, he showed last weekend at the breakdown that he hadnt lost any of the prerequsite skills of a good no 7.

Physical attributes like pace and strength apply to every position on the park irrelevant as to whther you are a fullback or a hooker.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:The difference between NZ's backs and ours is quite frightening...which makes our close scoreline all the more impressive. It shows how good our forwards were on the day. I dont think they played as well v OZ or Argentina, but rose to the occasion.

But thats the difference with the AB's..they have players that have vision and the skills to put that vision in to action.

We have rumbling, ponderous, defensive guys who are so slow to react to situations by the time they wake up there are 3 opposition defenders all over him and the pack need to rescue it and start again...
We cant even pass that well...half the time its behind a player or to their feet. Only Twelvetrees in that whole backline is actually able to pass very well...and thats alarming.

Whilst I'd agree the passing as a whole is very poor I'd say Youngs and Farrell can pass as well just Twelvetrees was the only one to show it in the AI's. The really frustrating thing now IMO is that I think the players are there to improve the back play drastically we just don't want to pick them.

1.Get Farrell to play flatter. By many accounts he wants to anyway and showed on the Lions tour he can do if given the chance and right players around him.
2.Get some pace and magic on the wings. Between Wade, Yarde, May and even Eastmond we have guys with good all round skill sets, an abundance of pace and great footwork. Please can we use them!
3.In the absence of Tuilagi let's partner Billy with a 13 who is capable of using those wings. This in my eyes means someone with the pace to attack in the wider channels and passing game to release players outside him - step up Trinder and Daly.

People will immediately point to defence as a weakness but Farrell is more than capable of marshaling a defensive line especially aided by the shift Cole, Launchberry, Lawes, Wood and Robshaw will give you in defence. Also need to consider just how solid Brown has proven himself to be at the back, the fact that Twelvetrees groundwork is very strong for a centre and Wade/Yarde/May offering better defense than Ashton or an out of position Foden. Please let's try something new!

Agreed. May be premature to say we need a plan B given plan A has hardly worked, but if Manu is injured or not firing we need to look at alternatives, preferably ones who offer something different.

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:For me Daly should have been eyeing that spot but he seems to be playing 15 more than anything.

Sadly, I think he's been encouraged to play there by England! He's already stated 13 is his preference. Why, I don't know. We have Fullbacks coming out of our ears. Here's a list off the top of my head who could've started (in theory) any of these AI games:

Mike Brown
Ben Foden
Alex Goode
Nick Adendanon
Matthew Tait
Anthony Watson
Luke Arscott
Elliiot Daly
Ben Ransom
Rob Cook
Tom Homer

It gets a bit more abstract towards the end but there are others. Compare that to a list of 13's and the options are less well stocked:

Manu Tuilagi
Henry Trinder
George Lowe
Joel Tomkins
Jonathan Joseph

Unless we're resorting to Mike Tindall I don't know of many other serious options. Matt Hopper perhaps although I don't think he's exactly a Test player. The point being that why try and convert Daly to a FB where we're short enough at OC?

I think Daly looks brilliant at 15, I have to say, and perhaps a longer term option. But with Watson looking like he's coming along quite well also, I'd like to see him at 13. He's not a crash bang wallop player, and his tackling technique would need to improve against some of the giant 13s and wingers, but he's surprisingly strong when carrying. My hope is that JJ picks up some form because he's also an intelligent player with good all round skills and pace.

Taylorman wrote:Read did give the ball to the foward that fell over to score, and he did get yellowed after somehow England failed to get penalised holding onto the ball with Messam all over it. so by my maths...10-2 = 8!

Read was unbelievable for the first 20 mins, astoundingly quick in attack, amazing off both feet and great hands for such a big player gotta be 10/10 for that period of time but lets take a few marks off for

The England try that wasn't given, he was in the middle of the pack out of position ending up been moved like a tide with no contribution to stopping the English shove
And for
The movement too quickly out of the base of the scrum and totally bolloxed up the pick up allowing the inertia and movement for Launchbury to score
And for
The yellow for coming in from the side into the ruck which is pretty much a fundamental mistake and the ten mins he was off cost NZ quite a bit

Probably made a try and scored a try, but cost a try and a major contribution to the try that wasn't given, and a pen and a yellow card

So that's made 14 pts and cost 10 pts (on another day that try could have been allowed so could have cost 17 pts)

I would give him 8 and a tad generous at that, certainly not a better performance than Launchbury in my opinion,

Interesting way of looking at it...If the ref hjad penalised Englamnd for not releasing when Messam was over the ball Read wouldnt have gone in from 'the side' and even that looked doubtful- the back and side these days look very clouded with things happening so fast.

The try that was didnt look a try to me. Robson was offside and attempted to play the ball- thats enough to be penalised- he was involved in play from an offside position, and was completely blocking McCaw from getting to the ball, and the scorer.

Taylorman wrote:Interesting way of looking at it...If the ref hjad penalised Englamnd for not releasing when Messam was over the ball Read wouldnt have gone in from 'the side' and even that looked doubtful- the back and side these days look very clouded with things happening so fast.

The try that was didnt look a try to me. Robson was offside and attempted to play the ball- thats enough to be penalised- he was involved in play from an offside position, and was completely blocking McCaw from getting to the ball, and the scorer.

Robshaw?

Taylorman wrote:Interesting way of looking at it...If the ref hjad penalised Englamnd for not releasing when Messam was over the ball Read wouldnt have gone in from 'the side' and even that looked doubtful- the back and side these days look very clouded with things happening so fast.

The try that was didnt look a try to me. Robson was offside and attempted to play the ball- thats enough to be penalised- he was involved in play from an offside position, and was completely blocking McCaw from getting to the ball, and the scorer.

True enough England didn't release but if you think there is any doubt that Read came in from the side then I have serious doubt about your objective view.

I suppose we can have another closer look at Reads release before he was bundled into touch for the ABs first try, these are micro seconds to make the right call. However there is no doubt about Reads positioning for Englands "non try", and his bundled attempt at picking up the ball for the actual Launchbury try.

A fantastic first twenty minutes in attack but some of the guys on here who are announcing almost a perfect 10..... I cannae believe that.

As far as the England try was concerned I didnt see any doubt on behalf of the video referee, who could have informed the ref

Im a great believe that these things even themselves out over a season. You'll get them one game and you wont the next.

The try should never have been awarded because McCaw was blocked from the ball carrier by Robshaw

flyhalffactory wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Interesting way of looking at it...If the ref hjad penalised Englamnd for not releasing when Messam was over the ball Read wouldnt have gone in from 'the side' and even that looked doubtful- the back and side these days look very clouded with things happening so fast.The try that was didnt look a try to me. Robson was offside and attempted to play the ball- thats enough to be penalised- he was involved in play from an offside position, and was completely blocking McCaw from getting to the ball, and the scorer.

True enough England didn't release but if you think there is any doubt that Read came in from the side then I have serious doubt about your objective view.

I suppose we can have another closer look at Reads release before he was bundled into touch for the ABs first try, these are micro seconds to make the right call. However there is no doubt about Reads positioning for Englands "non try", and his bundled attempt at picking up the ball for the actual Launchbury try.

A fantastic first twenty minutes in attack but some of the guys on here who are announcing almost a perfect 10..... I cannae believe that.

As far as the England try was concerned I didnt see any doubt on behalf of the video referee, who could have informed the ref

fly, Do you subscribe to the theory of penalising the first offnce first?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im a great believe that these things even themselves out over a season. You'll get them one game and you wont the next.

Thats true Geordie, and in this game non of these issues had any bearing on the outcome of the game.

Very true mate..

aucklandlaurie wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Interesting way of looking at it...If the ref hjad penalised Englamnd for not releasing when Messam was over the ball Read wouldnt have gone in from 'the side' and even that looked doubtful- the back and side these days look very clouded with things happening so fast.The try that was didnt look a try to me. Robson was offside and attempted to play the ball- thats enough to be penalised- he was involved in play from an offside position, and was completely blocking McCaw from getting to the ball, and the scorer.

True enough England didn't release but if you think there is any doubt that Read came in from the side then I have serious doubt about your objective view.

I suppose we can have another closer look at Reads release before he was bundled into touch for the ABs first try, these are micro seconds to make the right call. However there is no doubt about Reads positioning for Englands "non try", and his bundled attempt at picking up the ball for the actual Launchbury try.

A fantastic first twenty minutes in attack but some of the guys on here who are announcing almost a perfect 10..... I cannae believe that.

As far as the England try was concerned I didnt see any doubt on behalf of the video referee, who could have informed the ref

 fly, Do you subscribe to the theory of penalising the first offnce first?

Of course I do, but I am also experienced enough to realise that human error comes into play, I think the block the Robshaw block was not 100% certain and I think (correct me if I am incorrect) but the video ref can at any point inform the ref of an infringement if there is sufficient doubt.

Do you think the England try that wasn't given..... was a try?, I believe there was no reason for the video ref not to give that try.

Swings and roundabouts, but lets not muddy the waters

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im a great believe that these things even themselves out over a season. You'll get them one game and you wont the next.

Agree 100% with this Geordie and think it needs to be remembered more often when we see continual changes to TMO and referral systems in different sports that rarely improve the situation and disrupt the game for fans.

Certain changes work and work well but sadly many haven't!