Eng didn't just lose...were just blown away

First topic message reminder :

here are the comments from the experts...especially telling is the one from Vaughan People are trying to avoid facing Johnson
I sensed that in Swann...backing away from the line of the ball

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25075729

Former England captain Michael Vaughan: "This could have long-term effects on England because they have been blown away. People are trying to avoid facing Johnson. They will know they have a lot of soul-searching to do. They have to come out with a different mindset in Adelaide. This is one tall order, a bigger challenge than coming back to win in India."

Ex-England batsman Geoffrey Boycott: "I think Alastair Cook would bite your hand off if you offered him retaining, rather than winning the Ashes. Perth should have more pace and bounce than Brisbane, so England could easily go 2-0 down in that match (the third one). They need to find a way of winning matches on these wickets."

Australian fast-bowling legend Glenn McGrath: "Mitchell Johnson has come back mentally tougher and sorted out a few technique issues. He's happier off the field too, with a young family, and hopefully he's going to be around a long time for Australia."

Former England captain Nasser Hussain, speaking on Sky Sports: "It's very worrying (to have lost by such a distance). They were bullied. It wasn't as though Australia started well and then continued - England were bossing the game. A lot of it has to do with the opposition, Mitchell Johnson is unrecognisable from the bowler we have seen in previous Ashes battles, the confidence and the togetherness are unrecognisable from the team we saw in England, thanks to (coach) Darren Lehmann.


Former Australia leg-spinner Shane Warne: Message to all my English followers who have been sledging me during the last Ashes series: Hope you're enjoying Brisbane.

Well those are two possibilities. Of course there are other scenarios that fall somewhere in between those two and we shall no doubt see how this now pans out.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/cricket/boof-flowers-power-fails-in-peace-bid-with-aussie-coach-darren-lehmann/story-fni2usfi-1226769051444

Boof's words

From my point of view Andy looks after his side, I look after mine. That is what you do. I played cricket with Andy," said Lehmann.

"At the end of the day he is in control of the England cricket team and we have to get the Ashes back. I have to worry about the Australian team, not England."

However 27-Test batsman Lehmann defended Bailey's right to retaliate against Anderson before Clarke intervened.

"I was happy that Bails gave him a bit back, there is nothing wrong with that, it is part and parcel of the game. They are grown men, will work it out," Lehmann told 5AA.

Lehmann countered - noting Australia was on the receiving end of sledging and taunts in a 3-0 winter Ashes loss England and had copped it on the chin.

"I just know that we copped a lot in England and we didn't shy away from that, it is just what happens. You expect it when you go away," said Lehmann.

"I don't see what the difference is from England to here when we were on the other end of it. "That is the way it goes and as long as it stays on the field I am happy with that."

Lehmann feels for Trott - who followed another England batsman Marcus Trescothick (2006-07) - in withdrawing from an Ashes series. Australia, though, won't take a backward step.

"We can't worry about non-cricket stuff, everything outside of the game gets dealt with by others, the ICC. Jonathan Trott has gone home and we hope he gets well soon, we care about that but we will still play really hard cricket.," Lehmann said.

Things are getting confused here.

The only real issue that I think that irked England was Warner's remark. If Channel Nine's microphone hadn't picked up the sledging comments I believe you would have heard no more about it. Sledging is part and parcel of test cricket and has been for a very long time. I didn't even see Anderson getting aeriated by the sledging - if anything I recall him smiling his way through it. The players will deal with the sledging in their own ways on the pitch and that is where it will remain. Warner's comments are taking sledging and putting it in the media spotlight - not on.

Now Mitchell Johnson is having a go at England. He thinks England are rattled by the sledging.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/693603.html

I say again that sledging is not the issue here. The issue England players had was with Warner taking sledging off of the pitch and into media press interviews mid-match. The Aussies would do well to remember that this sledging issue only came to light by Channel Nine's microphone which esculated things with the ICC. Siddle was closer to the mark with comments saying Anderson is big enough to handle things - he dishes it out and takes it (hence Anderson smiling through the sledging which can clearly be seen on TV).

The issue is Warner

Firstly for punching root and then making a comment about trott, who to be fair to him possibly didnt know his problems.

Now everyone is getting a bit over sensitive

always felt a sledge needs to be well-timed. While a full on assault for nearly three months can mentally destroy teams, it could also blunt a teams feelings towards it, times the point it becomes irritating white noise.

The issue with Warner - is in my opinion, that when bad things happen someone needs to be blamed. And he sits in a very comfortable position to accrue the blame.

Well when you punch someone- your rep is going to be bad, he has a lot to put right

kingraf wrote:The issue with Warner - is in my opinion, that when bad things happen someone needs to be blamed. And he sits in a very comfortable position to accrue the blame.

that is correct some-one needed to be blamed for the Trott debacle.

Flower cleverly and pre-emptively chose Warner and Trott himself .....the former an oaf, easy target portrayed insensitive..... and the latter implicitly portrayed weak..... explicitly  sugar coated sympathies notwithstanding.

KP_fan wrote:

kingraf wrote:The issue with Warner - is in my opinion, that when bad things happen someone needs to be blamed. And he sits in a very comfortable position to accrue the blame.

that is correct some-one needed to be blamed for the Trott debacle.

Flower cleverly and pre-emptively chose Warner and Trott himself .....the former an oaf, easy target portrayed insensitive..... and the latter implicitly portrayed weak..... explicitly  sugar coated sympathies notwithstanding.

You have a way with words, KP_f!

You are also a brilliant playwright... according to Nasser Hussain. He reckons you summed it up perfectly.

KP_fan wrote:

kingraf wrote:The issue with Warner - is in my opinion, that when bad things happen someone needs to be blamed. And he sits in a very comfortable position to accrue the blame.

that is correct some-one needed to be blamed for the Trott debacle.

Flower cleverly and pre-emptively chose Warner and Trott himself .....the former an oaf, easy target portrayed insensitive..... and the latter implicitly portrayed weak..... explicitly  sugar coated sympathies notwithstanding.

Sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree and seeing things that aren't there. Flower had a pop at Warner for sledging in the media not pushing Trott over the edge (so to speak). Two totally different things as Flower admitted it had been an on-going problem for some time so how the hell is that blaming Warner? Warner got flak (and rightly so) for sledging a fellow pro mid-match. Heck it is akin to during half-time in a football match a player doing an interview to scoff at an opponent breaking a leg or something. Sorry that just isn't on.

more like akin to a football player scoffing at a player who couldn't handle the aggressive left-back....

I don't know why you keep equating a comment about a dismissal with a comment about an injury

It was a comment that should not have been made to the press mid-match. Heck even Warner admits it was wrong now, pity his brain is not engaged with his mouth. And you wouldn't see any player doing such a thing anyway especially mid-match. Post-match and the comments would be something like our winger had a cracking game and not touch on the opponents merits.

It shouldn't have been said, but the action does not justify the reaction. It's a throwaway comment that is being used to hide the fact that ECB (rightfully, imo) took a player mentally at the end of the rope to a tour to the most mentally taxing cricket nation. I still want to know if they had a professional monitor him before he left.

What recation. What are you talking about!

You think they are trying to shift blame..



Neither England or trott are to blame for his time off..To suggest otherwise suggests a lot of misunderstanding

I''ve said repeatedly, bringing Trott along was understandable. But with the proviso that he was looked at by a professional before he came on tour. Would you allow a player who openly told you about a calf injury he is managing to go on a marathon tour without consulting a professional?

You have to understand the way these things are done Graf,

Trott will be more than welcome to ask for help for stress, he may have been offered help for stress(if he had told certain people within the team his problems)

But ultimately its down to him to ask or take the help!

They cannot force these things on him. If you are in a position where you have to force a 'professional' to monitor a player- that person shouldn't be playing in the first place...

People are also very good at hiding issues until it reaches the point where its to much.

Of course athletes are good at hiding things. I would expect nothing less, rugby players regularly try make it through tours/matches with potentially serious injuries.

If Trott had kept his illness to himself, I would concede that ECB couldn't have foreseen this. But how a cricket board thats lost two players to stress-related illnesses before doesn't think it prudent to make sure Trott is capable of wading through the mental in Australia, is beyond me.
"Boss, Trott just told me he is going through a bit of stress, what should I do?"
"Nothing, we've got the Ashes to prepare for"
"But we've lost Yardy, and Tresco like this, boss.."
"He said he's fine, and athletes always know!! Let's get going"

I'm sure Symonds would have told you his alcoholism was under control if you asked him before he got chucked out.

And in any case kingraf the England camp have said this was a long-term issue and one they've known about and one that Trott has found manageable. England retaining the Ashes last summer and winning in India last winter suggesting alone how manageable it was. That being the case Trott was named in this squad on the assumption that it remained manageable but evidently it hasn't. Unfortunate but nobody's fault. Have we seen Trott in tears as he left the camp or in the press saying he had been mis-handled/mistreated by England's management? No - so lets not start pumping out falsehoods.

I'm asking a simple question - was he analysed by a professional before they went off? A home Ashes, and Indian series does not compare in any way to the stress of an Australasia tour. It's like saying a soldier stationed at Malibu is absolutely ready to go to the Gaza strip.

kingraf wrote:Of course athletes are good at hiding things. I would expect nothing less, rugby players regularly try make it through tours/matches with potentially serious injuries.

If Trott had kept his illness to himself, I would concede that ECB couldn't have foreseen this. But how a cricket board  thats lost two players to stress-related illnesses before doesn't think it prudent to make sure Trott is capable of wading through the mental in Australia, is beyond me.
"Boss, Trott just told me he is going through a bit of stress, what should I do?"
"Nothing, we've got the Ashes to prepare for"
"But we've lost Yardy, and Tresco like this, boss.."
"He said he's fine, and athletes always know!! Let's get going"

I'm sure Symonds would have told you his alcoholism was under control if you asked him before he got chucked out.

Its a very tricky subject - but ultimately nothing to do with the sport and all about the person.

Neither Tresco or trott will not be blaming the ECB in the slightest bit, I am sure they all sing there praises as very understanding and helpful employers.

The majority of the time(99% plus) when players may be a bit down, its about the team to get them back up. Everyone gets up and down, especially within a sporting team environment. Its very hard to spot any potential issues(clinical depression at the initial starting point) and as has previously happened the players themselves tell there employers when enough is enough and then they have there break..

I've never claimed he was mistreated, so the irony of you telling me to stop pumping out falsehoods is not lost

kingraf wrote:I'm asking a simple question - was he analysed by a professional before they went off? A home Ashes, and Indian series does not compare in any way to the stress of an Australasia tour. It's like saying a soldier stationed at Malibu is absolutely ready to go to the Gaza strip.

probally not- but he shouldn't have been, and even if he was the professional would have more than likely not spotted a thing.

People's breaking points are very different. A professional hasnt got a physic ability to look in to other peoples minds.

Now is the time for him to see a professional

kingraf wrote:I've never claimed he was mistreated, so the irony of you telling me to stop pumping out falsehoods is not lost

I dont understand what you think should have been done. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Trott clearly wanted to play,

that's enough.

Err he has toured Australia (successfully) before as well so is well-versed in what to expect. For all we know he was managing it then as well. Like Trescothick says (and he is better judged to qualify than anyone) it is totally unseen and unknown until it hits so IF Trott never asked for any help then nobody is going to know about it. All subjective in any case - until we know differently lets assume he was given best attention by the management. If, in the coming weeks or months, Trott feels he was mis-handled then is the time to let rip - not now though.

Oakey - Of course, a professional might not have seen anything amiss, but opting not to get a professional opinion because the professional might not see anything sounds like penny-pinching....

I don't think asking for a player to be analysed before a stressful tour is asking for a lot.

So if Rooney tells management he's had a calf complaint for X-amount of time, but he is absolutely sure he can keep playing during December, no medical opinions are needed, his word is law?

You are aching to point blame without knowing ANY of the facts. Wait until we know some before proportioning blame eh?

many sportsmen and just everyday people get Anxiety

many have a long term condition. Many try to get help on there own but have no option to work. Many are cagy about getting help, For some it shows up like a badge on there forehead, for others its completely hidden.

You raise a point, but there is a much larger point for me tbh, because it actually affects many people who arn't as lucky as trott, that have no option but to work through it. And yes I do come from personal experience.

kingraf wrote:So if Rooney tells management he's had a calf complaint for X-amount of time, but he is absolutely sure he can keep playing during December, no medical opinions are needed, his word is law?

dude it so not that simple

CaledonianCraig wrote:You are aching to point blame without knowing ANY of the facts. Wait until we know some before proportioning blame eh?

No ones to blame

Anyway Graf

he may well have had assessments , but I cant see how any professional would tell someone with anxiety or depression not to play cricket as long as they want to!!

The only real issue is if it is going to affect his ability to do his job, which tbh it didn't untill possibly this summer

Its best to just crack on with things tbh, yes an attack or whatever happened to him can hit you like a ton of bricks, but i tell you what he would have preferred to have played cricket when he did. He was successful.

Exactly mysti. It is all just an unfortunate incident.

mystiroakey wrote:
Trott clearly wanted to play,

that's enough.

Ha Ha....KP; Prior, Swann, Broad, Cook etal may all want to play with their bad knees and wrists and back etc.

but per the professional processes in decalring a player match fit in Eng or for that matter in any county.......medical / fitness experts examine the individual and declare him match fit or other wise.

fans / media are kept abreast with the injury, the diagnosis and the treatment and match fitness level on a regular basis.

In case of Trott:

1) The media and fans were not kept informed about his illness when ECB knew about it ?
2) Was he examined by a medical expert with specialization and credentials in mental illness / depression.
3) Was he declared match fit by the medical expert in mental illness field?

ECB must furnish answers to the above to absolve themselves from the blame.

KP_fan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:    
Trott clearly wanted to play,

that's enough.

Ha Ha....KP; Prior, Swann, Broad, Cook etal may all want to play with their bad knees and wrists and back etc.

but per the professional processes in decalring a player match fit in Eng or for that matter in any county.......medical / fitness experts examine the individual and declare him match fit or other wise.

fans / media are kept abreast with the injury, the diagnosis and the treatment and match fitness level on a regular basis.

In case of Trott:

1) The media and fans were not kept informed about his illness when ECB knew about it ?
2) Was he examined by a medical expert with specialization and credentials in mental illness / depression.
3) Was he declared match fit by the medical expert in mental illness field?

ECB must furnish answers to the above to absolve themselves from the blame.

Total and utter hogwash,

say he was analysed by a mental health professional and they said he was good to go(as probably any one of them would have done anyway)

Do we now shift the blame to them.

You haven't got a clue mate.

I'm not proportioning any blame, I've asked a simple question, and since then I haven't had an answer. I know as much about what was done as anybody... but I've gone through cricket tours away from home with anxiety, it's a lonely place, a restless one as well.

I dare you to find a comment where I called ECB irresponsible or to blame! All I've said is they should have had him checked, and if they did fair play. All I said is the ECB took a player mentally at the end of his rope to Aus. That's a fact that can't be denied, the next step is then - could they have done anything to help? My opinion is yes. Have I claimed they are to blame for Trotts current condition, or that they have mistreated him?

kingraf wrote:I'm not proportioning any blame, I've asked a simple question, and since then I haven't had an answer. I know as much about what was done as anybody... but I've gone through cricket tours away from home with anxiety, it's a lonely place, a restless one as well.

I dare you to find a comment where I called ECB irresponsible or to blame! All I've said is they should have had him checked, and if they did fair play.  All I said is the ECB took a player mentally at the end of his rope to Aus. That's a fact that can't be denied, the next step is then - could they have done anything to help? My opinion is yes. Have I claimed they are to blame for Trotts current condition, or that they have mistreated him?

If the person wants to play and is good enough to play, and acts like a sane human being. THAT IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED

mystiroakey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:    
Trott clearly wanted to play,

that's enough.

Ha Ha....KP; Prior, Swann, Broad, Cook etal may all want to play with their bad knees and wrists and back etc.

but per the professional processes in decalring a player match fit in Eng or for that matter in any county.......medical / fitness experts examine the individual and declare him match fit or other wise.

fans / media are kept abreast with the injury, the diagnosis and the treatment and match fitness level on a regular basis.

In case of Trott:

1) The media and fans were not kept informed about his illness when ECB knew about it ?
2) Was he examined by a medical expert with specialization and credentials in mental illness / depression.
3) Was he declared match fit by the medical expert in mental illness field?

ECB must furnish answers to the above to absolve themselves from the blame.

Total and utter hogwash,

say he was analysed by a mental health professional and they said he was good to go(as probably any one of them would have done anyway)

Do we now shift the blame to them.

You haven't got a clue mate.

well we need clear answers from ECB......and they have not published because they don't have the answers....because they didn't follow the due process.

Instead of treating the mental illness with the serousness that it deserves..following the due processes of using medical experts and match-fitness certificates... Flower( on behalf of ECB) and Trott decided mutually......( as Flower stated in his comments)
and look at the debacle they created for their team / country/ and god forbid ending Trott's career.

If the person wants to play and is good enough to play, and acts like a sane human being. THAT IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED

Nope
a medical expert's opinion and a match fitness certificate is needed

Yeah - I wonder how many pro athletes have Stress-related illnesses because they seemed to function fine, and thats all that mattered.

KP_fan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:    
Trott clearly wanted to play,

that's enough.

Ha Ha....KP; Prior, Swann, Broad, Cook etal may all want to play with their bad knees and wrists and back etc.

but per the professional processes in decalring a player match fit in Eng or for that matter in any county.......medical / fitness experts examine the individual and declare him match fit or other wise.

fans / media are kept abreast with the injury, the diagnosis and the treatment and match fitness level on a regular basis.

In case of Trott:

1) The media and fans were not kept informed about his illness when ECB knew about it ?
2) Was he examined by a medical expert with specialization and credentials in mental illness / depression.
3) Was he declared match fit by the medical expert in mental illness field?

ECB must furnish answers to the above to absolve themselves from the blame.

Total and utter hogwash,

say he was analysed by a mental health professional and they said he was good to go(as probably any one of them would have done anyway)

Do we now shift the blame to them.

You haven't got a clue mate.

well we need clear answers from ECB......and they have not published because they don't have the answers....because they didn't follow the due process.

Instead of  treating the mental illness with the serousness that it deserves..following the due processes of using medical experts and match-fitness certificates... Flower( on behalf of ECB) and Trott decided mutually......( as Flower stated in his comments)
and look at the debacle they created for their team / country/ and god forbid ending Trott's career.

Tbh mate your comments are quite disturbing if truth be told.. You dont really understand mental illness i can tell that from your posts. People with mental illness can carry on with there every day life's, in fact 99% of them have to. Stop trying to put the blame on others, its ridiculous and quite patronizing tbh. The ECB have not ruined his career even if they cant produce 'match fitness-certs'. Its his life and HE IS RESPONSIBLE

KP_fan wrote:

If the person wants to play and is good enough to play, and acts like a sane human being. THAT IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED

Nope
a medical expert's opinion and a match fitness certificate is needed

are they needed for the other millions of people with the condition that aren't pro sportsmen!!

kingraf wrote:Yeah - I wonder how many pro athletes have Stress-related illnesses because they seemed to function fine, and thats all that mattered.

yep that is all that matters..

Life can suck whatever field you are in. But you have to try and keep going

Fair enough if you are not blaming anyone kingraf so what exactly are you getting at? Facts are that Trott has carried this problem (unknown to most) for some time and it has been 'managable'. Therefore, he was named in this squad and evidently he was happy to be involved.

As for your Rooney example, well if he had been playing with a calf injury for weeks but still scoring and making a team contribution I am sure he'd still get selected for the World Cup squad.

mystiroakey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

If the person wants to play and is good enough to play, and acts like a sane human being. THAT IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED

Nope
a medical expert's opinion and a match fitness certificate is needed

are they needed for the other millions of people with the condition that aren't pro sportsmen!!

the other millions can keep their knee injury or mental illness to themselves.

but if some of them intend to repsent their country in a sport...then their sport's governing body...need to get them examined by a medical expert and get a match fitness certificate.

heck if some-one need to take a day off from work on medical grounds....they will need a medical certifcate from an expert.
you cannot declare yourself ill and fit as you feel when dealing in any professional environment

Unfortunately ECB did not seek an expert opinion nor a match fitness certifciate for Trott and drove him to the edge and then past the edge....to what we all hope and pray is not the terminal end of his career

KP_fan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

If the person wants to play and is good enough to play, and acts like a sane human being. THAT IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED

Nope
a medical expert's opinion and a match fitness certificate is needed

are they needed for the other millions of people with the condition that aren't pro sportsmen!!

the other millions can keep their knee injury or mental illness to themselves.

but if some of them intend to repsent their country in a sport...then they need to get themselves examined by a mecical expert and get a match fitness certificate.

heck if they even need to take a day off from work on medical grounds....they will need a medical certifcate from an expert

Unfortunately ECB did not seek an expert opinion nor a match fitness certificate for Trott and drove him to the edge and then past the edge....to what we all hope and pray is not the terminal end of his career

why would depression or anxiety (as trott has or whatever it is) stop him from playing sport? why would that stop Trott or anyone else getting a CERT?

Are you seriously saying that people with that condition shouldn't play pro sport?

why would depression or anxiety (as trott had or whatever it was) stop him from playing sport? why would that stop Trott or anyone else getting a CERT?

Are you seriously saying that people with that condition shouldn't play pro sport?

It is an illness......the scars of which can have long term and permanent damage.
So only an expert can diagnose and certify whether a person with mental illness is in match-fit condition or otehrwise.

Looks like you do not undertsand the serousness of mentall illness and stress related illness

CC - I'm not getting at anything, I just wanted to know if anyone knows whether Trott was analysed before the tour. It's not a necessity, of course, But I do believe that a player with a manageable condition should be looked at every now and then. Especially before a big tour.

As to the Rooney parable... if you do take him to the WC, and he does his calf in first match, questions over why you didn't have someone look at his Calf are inevitable.

KP_fan wrote:

why would depression or anxiety (as trott had or whatever it was) stop him from playing sport? why would that stop Trott or anyone else getting a CERT?

Are you seriously saying that people with that condition shouldn't play pro sport?

It is an illness......the scars of which can have long term and permanent damage.
So only an expert can diagnose and certify whether a person with mental illness is in match-fit condition or otehrwise.

Looks like you do not undertsand the serousness of mentall illness and stress related illness

No it tells you haven't got the foggiest idea about it.

I cant be clearer with you on this, i think you are very naive, very patronizing and you do not have a clue, There are literally loads of sportsmen out there with depression, as there are in every field..