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India in South Africa 2013

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Post by msp83 Mon 25 Nov 2013 - 9:24

First topic message reminder :

The BCCI have picked the test squad for South Africa well in advance, so the debates can also start well in time.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 16:29

kingraf wrote:And they shouldn't. South Africa is a bit of a burial ground for visiting teams, and their batsmen have done a fantastic job, especially Pujara, who exceeded even my high hopes for me. I'm not sure the bowlers have done much to deserve leaving with their heads held high, yet. They until AB's dismissal at the Wanderers, they'd managed to concede 400 runs for four wickets, fourth innings on a cracked pitch. Im still not sold on India's bowling attack, with the possible exception of Shami (I like Zak, but at 35, he's a stop-gap now)

India bowled out SA for lesser total in first inning should not be forgotten...
Whilst the second inning also stands out......we should not take the worst performance to judge but both good and bad together.
SA also allowed India to score near 450 runs in 2nd inning so the pitch was flatenning.

India is a weak bowling side when normally and when there is something in the pitch for seamers or spinners....Indian bowling gets propped up.

Zaheer is good..age not withstanding. Shami is rising fast.....and I would play Yadav instead of Ishant...but captain loves Ishant we all know...so we have to bear Ishant
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:03

KP_fan wrote:
kingraf wrote:And they shouldn't. South Africa is a bit of a burial ground for visiting teams, and their batsmen have done a fantastic job, especially Pujara, who exceeded even my high hopes for me. I'm not sure the bowlers have done much to deserve leaving with their heads held high, yet. They until AB's dismissal at the Wanderers, they'd managed to concede 400 runs for four wickets, fourth innings on a cracked pitch. Im still not sold on India's bowling attack, with the possible exception of Shami (I like Zak, but at 35, he's a stop-gap now)

India bowled out SA for lesser total in first inning should not be forgotten...
Whilst the second inning also stands out......we should not take the worst performance to  judge but both good and bad together.
SA also allowed India to score near 450 runs in 2nd inning so the pitch was flatenning.

India is a weak bowling side when normally and when there is something in the pitch for seamers or spinners....Indian bowling gets propped up.

Zaheer is good..age not withstanding. Shami is rising fast.....and I would play Yadav instead of Ishant...but captain loves Ishant we all know...so we have to bear Ishant


Sorry are you blaming the coach for picking the tall fast bowler ?


Ishants continued selection does seem to be a case of theory over reality. India desperately want a terrifying bowler, so they keep picking a gentle giant no matter how woeful his record ( although by Indian seamers standards in recent years its not that bad)

It's no secret that Indians attack is weak, especially on seamers pitches. Zaheer has somehow managed to get through an entire test without breaking down but isn't the player he was. The young lad is doing OK but behind them is there much more than a succession of players who make bresnan look like the new flintoff?
In these conditions they don't dare play their good spinner. Even at home they were outdone by a stressed out drunk and a peverted drunk when England visited.

Batting wise though in really excited by pujara. It took him longe to get his chance than it perhaps should've thanks to the difficulties India had in retiring the old guard. But the guy is class and proving it in all conditions. To me he is far more likely to get to legendary status than Faf is, it's only a matter of time before he is found out at test level and his average plummets.


Regardless India would take a draw and even a competitive loss a huge plus coming to Te undisputed number one sides home. To be in with a shout of winning tests is more than most people wouldve reasonably expected. It does look like this side has the hunger and a point to prove. This is certainly a good side if flawed in the bowling.

Good for test cricket when sides turn up in th frame of mind to compete. Hats off to India for that, far better than the shambles last time they came to England.






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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:19

Pujara deserves a fan club, I'm so big on him. He could and should go down as one of the greatest ever. He seemed at sea when Steyn really ramped up the short stuff, with every second ball hitting his glove/handle, but he didn't get out, and in test cricket, you don't need to know how to play the short ball, you just need to know how not to get out to it, he seems quite skilled at that. He's probably my favorite player in world cricket at the moment, although I'm probably not going to change my name to CP_fan.

Fafs average will come down, although I don't think he will be found out. He belongs at this level, and has the necessary patience and skill. The guy has three centuries, and two of them go down as some of the greatest in the history of the game. You don't score such centuries without a lot of quality, and he oozes it
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Post by Guest Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:31

the bad light set in early didnt' it.....just after tea?! Thats a lot of overs lost.

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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:34

It's gonna be the same for the rest of the Test. Rain forecast as well, I believe.
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Post by Guest Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:40

still cant believe that Vijay is 91*  he actually scored some runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:46

Well he should. The Kingsmead pitch was as flat as south African pitches come. Only concern for him was swing, and I'd expect an opener to be able to handle it well. Not denigrating his achievement, but Kingsmead has long stopped being the green mamba of old. Good knock though.
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Post by msp83 Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 18:57

kingraf wrote:Pujara deserves a fan club, I'm so big on him. He could and should go down as one of the greatest ever. He seemed at sea when Steyn really ramped up the short stuff, with every second ball hitting his glove/handle, but he didn't get out, and in test cricket, you don't need to know how to play the short ball, you just need to know how not to get out to it, he seems quite skilled at that. He's probably my favorite player in world cricket at the moment, although I'm probably not going to change my name to CP_fan.

Fafs average will come down, although I don't think he will be found out. He belongs at this level, and has the necessary patience and skill. The guy has three centuries, and two of them go down as some of the greatest in the history of the game. You don't score such centuries without a lot of quality, and he oozes it
Surviving a determined Dale Steyn attack is certainly an achievement for any batsman and credits for Pujara for doing that. He usually is a good player of the short ball, a bit of a compulsive hooker but he can play the shot well. He has a decent technique to avoid the short ball as well. But at times he tends to get in 2 minds, whether to play it or leave it and can get out. But today Steyn had him actually experiencing some serious discomfort against the short stuff. No shame against a bowler of Steyn's class really, and as you said, the important thing is that Pujara survived. But unlike the Rainas of the world, Pujara is actually a decent player of the short ball.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 20:10

kingraf wrote:It's gonna be the same for the rest of the Test. Rain forecast as well, I believe.

will they start half hour early daily ?
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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 20:24

I've heard that they'll start half an hour earlier tomorrow, though I can't confirm it. It won't make a difference in any case, Durban is a god-forsaken city weather wise.
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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 20:50

kingraf wrote:I've heard that they'll start half an hour earlier tomorrow, though I can't confirm it. It won't make a difference in any case, Durban is a god-forsaken city weather wise.

a normal innings win needs about 4 days of playing time only...so I was counting how much time we have Smile
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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 20:53

Well, you're right in that, barring a collapse of miraculous proportion in successive innings, India is the only team that can win from here. But thirty overs Have been lost today, and I'd think at least twenty- twenty-five overs will be lost tomorrow, so I cant see enough time for your attack to force a result.
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Post by msp83 Thu 26 Dec 2013 - 22:49

And Sunday is going to rain all day isn't it?

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Post by Gerry SA Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 0:42

kingraf wrote:I've heard that they'll start half an hour earlier tomorrow, though I can't confirm it. It won't make a difference in any case, Durban is a god-forsaken city weather wise.
Nothing wrong with Durban KR!

All we need is to implement daylight saving.

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Post by Gerry SA Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 0:45

I can't believe Kyle Abbott didn't get a game on his home patch.

We keep picking ordinary spinners against world class players of spin...

Abbott's in great form and know Kingsmead better than anyone.

Coupled in that the grass was cut off the pitch, Abbott's nippy pace and bounce would've been different to what Steyn, Ohilander and Morne have offered thus far.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 0:58

Gerry SA wrote:I can't believe Kyle Abbott didn't get a game on his home patch.

We keep picking ordinary spinners against world class players of spin...

Abbott's in great form and know Kingsmead better than anyone.

Coupled in that the grass was cut off the pitch, Abbott's nippy pace and bounce would've been different to what Steyn, Ohilander and Morne have offered thus far.

I agree.

Duminy could do what Peterson is doing just as well imo
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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 8:06

Raining in Durban at the moment. Honestly not even surprised. I don't even go to Durban for holidays anymore because of this weather.
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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 11:09

Jaysus - Steyn got Pujara with what might be the ball of the year! The ball tailed in (with reverse swing), and then left Pujara late with Steyn's natural away movement. Absolutely nothing you can do when a ball like that comes your way
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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 11:20

He's been quiet for a while - but he's on a hattrick now!! Steyn has triggered a collapse.
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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 11:22

feel for Sharma there - Steyn generally gets it to move away, that tailed into his middle stump!
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Post by Gerry SA Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 12:04

It's unbelievable how many runs the Indians have scored of the edge...

I've got it around the 50 runs mark...

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Post by Gerry SA Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 12:12

Philander's got to work on his fitness...

When he's not hooping it around, he's barely bowling 125kph and looks very average.

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Post by alfie Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 13:17

SA have done well to peg India back today.

Nice to Steyn back in the wickets. Guess he was bound to get some today , seeing as Anderson took three earlier  Whistle 

Only joking , Gerry.

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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 13:21

Steyn 's first wicket was simply ridiculous.
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Post by alfie Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 13:29

kingraf wrote:Steyn 's first wicket was simply ridiculous.

Have seen him bowl some fantastic deliveries...one that got Michael Vaughan stays in the mind.

A couple of overs he bowled to Paul Collingwood in 2009-10...which Collie somehow survived...are in my mental files under "best spells without taking a wicket."

Will be interesting to see what happens when Australia tour.  Warner likes to go hard early , in case you hadn't noticed  Smile    Could be a fun confrontation .


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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 14:59

to paraphrase Brian Clough - I wouldn't say Steyn is the greatest bowler in the world, but he's definitely in the top one
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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 15:02

Rohit Sharma's dismissal looks worse everytime I see it. It's one thing to misjudge a delivery hitting your off stump, but to leave one going halfway up middle is a travesty.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 15:35

kingraf wrote:Rohit Sharma's dismissal looks worse everytime I see it. It's one thing to misjudge a delivery hitting your off stump, but to leave one going halfway up middle is a travesty.

It was Monty esque
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Post by KP_fan Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 17:00

India has worked themselves into a position from where defeat is not difficult.

getting bowled out to the spell of Steyn is understandable.

but then conceding at 4 RPO without taking a wicket...is where the game slipped.

Tomm SA will get a lead of about 50 runs atleast...at this rate.
then there are two days left........and unless India bat out of their skin one more time....they will be bowled out in about one day and SA will wipe out whatever 4th inning 200ish total India sets.

India balloon of resistance has gotten deflated on the 7th day.

unless India bowl very tight tomm and plug SA back with quick wickets and choke the scoring also.
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Post by KP_fan Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 17:07

and how Rohit vs. Rahane have fared in this series against highest quality pace in bouncy conditions.

one proven the FTB...that we knew....and got prolonged blessings of the captain.

the other standing out amindst highest adversity.....shows what many of us have been saying,...what if the Rahane was given as many chances or even a third of what Rohit got.
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Post by Biltong Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 18:12

I thought Ishant Sharma bowled really well this afternoon.

I don't think this test is safe for SA yet, if you look at their previous four first innings totals they were bowled out for less than 150 twice, once for 160 and the other by memory was close to 200.

To win this test SA will have to bat once only, odds in my view will be another draw.

Steyn was brilliant today considering the pitch isn't helping him much.
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Post by msp83 Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:08

Missed much of the action today, could only have a fiew bits in between traveling.
Not really surprised the South Africans fought their way back into the game. And not at all surprised that the 2nd ranked bowler in the world took offense at the ranking system and prepared a demonstration for anyone interested, with Team India being a collateral damage. It took Dale Steyn some time to register his presence, but he was truly outstanding today.
Fine hand yet again from Ajinkya Rahane, and Kohli and Dhoni got starts that weren't converted. But the rest of the batting couldn't live up to the Steyn challenge today. Serious disappointment for Murali Vijay, he did deserve that ton for all the application he has shown in the series so far. Pujara got an absolute brute of a ball really. Wonder what the Rohit Sharma Apologists Club would now come up with? He of course scored test hundreds against the side ones represented by Holding, Marshall, Ambrose and Walsh!.
The efforts from the bowlers weren't great either and SA have got off to yet another good starts. Not only did they not picked up a wicket, but also gave away a few too many runs for the captain's comfort.
But tomorrow is a fresh day, there could be some early life in the pitch, and a few early wickets can set SA back a bit. Couldn't really follow anything of the South Africa innings, did the ball do anything for the seamers or for Ravindra Jadeja other than hitting the middle of the bat and traveling around a bit?

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Post by Biltong Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:29

The ball didn't do too much, but alart from Sharma the other bowled too much on the pads which assisted Pietersen especially.

Jadeja looked wuite dangerous and bowled well, but the pick was Sharma who bowled a line just outside of off and could have easily collected an edge from Pietersen.
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Post by Guest Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:42

Have been impressed with Ishant in this mini series, he has easily been India's best bowler and has bowled really good lines and lengths...India will rue the lack of a genuine spinner/ 4th bowler.

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Post by msp83 Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:49

The cricinfo match report suggested that Jadeja was getting some good turn from the pitch. Ishant Sharma seems to have bowled well as well. But Zaheer Khan and Mohammed Shami couldn't do much.
Hopefully, Zaheer will also stand up tomorrow and show why he's the leader of this attack.

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Post by msp83 Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:51

I feel Jadeja would be more suited to these pitches anyway, he bowls at a higher pace than either Ashwin or Ojha, and that could make a bit of a difference in these conditions. Hopefully he'll have a good day tomorrow.

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Post by Guest Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:55

Fair play to Graeme Smith as well. That was a tricky session he endured and the bowlers did have good plans for him, but he stayed composed and managed to get through the day and the saffers will look to kick on tomorrow.

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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 19:58

we have to bat for another five sessions, you feel. By taking nine wickets in two sessions, we've moved the game forward very quickly, to the point where despite being 60 overs short, in terms of overs played, the game has advanced at relatively reasonable rate. I thought India had a very interesting strategy vs Smith, and it will be interesting to see if they continue in the same vein tomorrow morning.

As to the Indian batsmen, not too many disappointments, Rohit Sharma will have nightmares about his dismissal for a ways to go, but I can understand why he thought he could leave it, the ball before, Pujara had one that tailed in and moved away, can understand why he'd think that even if its coming in, he should be able to leave it. Turned out he was wrong. It's a bad leave, but an understandable one. Why he didn't at least plant his front foot is another question entirely.

Jadeja is an interesting man, from the outside, one would think having a #8 with a first class average of 50 is a huge bonus, but he is yet to show me that he is in fact a batsman, or at least a bowler who can bat. It is my understanding that he's Batting is the reason he got the nod over Ohja in the touring party, but I'm not sure he actually offers that much more than the Big O.

Murali Vijay played a fantastic knock, and I hope, if nothing else, he gets some breathing space. Pujara was out to a freak delivery, and there isn't really that much he could have done unless someone would have telegraphed it to him, even then, I don't think he would have believed a ball reverse swinging into him would swing away conventionally so late. It's a special ball, and whichever line he could have played (either for conventional swing, or the reverse) he still would have feathered it through. Speaks volumes of his defense that he got an edge that healthy. I missed Kohli's dismissal, so I can't say if he was peppered with some short stuff before being strangled down leg. MSD was out in a relatively orthodox manner, not much to say, but he tried something. Zak isn't much of a wicket, so I doubt Steyn felt overjoyed at it, but ABdV's catch was ridiculously good off it.

We need to score at 3.5ish to the over for the entire day tomorrow, to have a healthy lead by end of day. This was the first week in this decade that Steyn hasn't been the ICC best bowler. He's responded very well to the "Demotion". Philander took no wickets in this innings, which happens, but what worries is that he wasn't nipping it around. If Philander cant nip it, he isn't any better than Tsotsobe (as you see in ODI). For some reason he's arm is coming round, rather than upright, and thats affecting the seam presentation, it's not landing on the hide more than the seam, which is in turn is stopping it from seaming. On the bright side, he's played four Tests, and half a dozen ODI's in the last while, and hasn't broken down, so at least his hamstring seems healthy.
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Post by msp83 Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 20:15

Kingraf, Jadeja's First Class batting average does inflate his batting abilities a bit, but the lad certainly can hold a bat. He has averaged 30 in ODI cricket, and I think that is a fair indicator of his batting abilities. Very keen to see how he goes about as a bowler in these conditions. I read he was turning it from the footmarks and troubling Smith, and he was getting the ball to turn against the right-handed Petersen as well without the footmarks really helping him. If he could do a job with the ball, I'd any day take his batting average between 25 and 30.

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Post by Guest Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 20:18

Could be a long day for India tomorrow, they have to break this opening partnership and then with Hash next, saffers could well rack them up!

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Post by KP_fan Fri 27 Dec 2013 - 20:36

Jadeja is an interesting man, from the outside, one would think having a #8 with a first class average of 50 is a huge bonus, but he is yet to show me that he is in fact a batsman, or at least a bowler who can bat. It is my understanding that he's Batting is the reason he got the nod over Ohja in the touring party, but I'm not sure he actually offers that much more than the Big O

Jadeja is indeed interesting.

He is in because he is India's first choice SLA and India's deemed No.2 spinner after Ashwin...and if he makes a mark here...he might become India's No.1 spinner overseas.

He started in ODIs as a batsman who could be the 5th bowler...and came into tests as the 6th batsman cum 5th bowler...but very very quickly they found he is a far more potent than a mere 5th bowler.
He has nip off the pitch and guile which makes him more dangerous than the other spinners in India.

He batting average in FC is slightly inflated beyond his potential because his home ground is the flat Rajkot pitch...and he has 3 triple hundreds in Ranji....

He is not going to be an averaging 45+ batsman in tests
but if he establishes his primary role as a spinner and assured of a place in side.....his batting will blossom at the international level eventually....and he will be over a period of time an averaging 35+ batsman.

The upside that Jadeja offers is HUGE
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Post by Pal Joey Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 7:37

Early start today. Hardly anyone there at the ground... or here.

Conditions look fine. Let's hope it's a long day's play with plenty of action.

Petersen gets his 50.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 8:07

Indi breaks stand and gets smith
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Post by alfie Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 8:14

So one wicket for India at last. Lot of work left to get them back into this match though after that opening stand.

My money still on a draw.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 8:26

last 10 overs for 17 runs and a wicket....India pulling things back.....i hear that Jadeja is getting turn and bounce.

I would expect Zaheer and Shami to get reverse.
if they keep things tight...wickets will come.

India still more likely to lose from here...than SA...draw obviously an even option
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Post by KP_fan Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 8:30

and Shami reverses one to get the BIG one Amla
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Post by alfie Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 8:34

Three gone now ! Pressure on Kallis now in what could be his last innings...

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Post by alfie Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 12:26

Great to see Kallis thriving in his perhaps last innings...

Go on man , forty five more ...

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 12:50

Bet India are glad they came now. Even if they lose this they should go with credit. SA are easily the best side in the world.
Sounds like a very good contest between bat and ball and two teams as well, good advert for the game and a reminder to those who prepare wickets.

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Post by Guest Sat 28 Dec 2013 - 13:46

light's getting bad and Dhoni has been asked to bowl the spinners...just wonder if he could sneak in a couple of overs of Kohli....Kohli is seriously slow..

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