Nelson Mandela has died

First topic message reminder :

I just heard about this.

A truly great man who emancipated the world not just SA.

I will never forget his wearing of the 6 jumper at the 95 Final and his contribution to the Springboks is perhaps the greatest gesture of reconciliation.

RIP and my condolences to all South Africans.

I dont think it will cause problems... Scratch. South African militants are incredibly, well, meh. Just two months ago Diepkloof was under fire because of a spate of child deaths... the people got angry, rose up, and then things were fine three days later, and that was in a town woefully under policed.

To clarify

1) Mandela has been away from the public eye for nearly ten years. We have certainly gotten used to not having him around. His death is of course a shock, but his absence not, if that makes sense.

2) The biggest problems in South Africa are now class based, no longer race based. It's a much more manageable disparity than race.

3) Judging by the social media comments, and my discussions with people at the market, work, etc, I think Mandela's death has actually made S.A. more determined to make this work. There will always be crackpots, but I certainly don't think they're anything more than a loud, ever-shrinking minority.

4) Like I said militant Saffers are quite, meh, in terms of commitment. Some singing, some dancing, a car gets burnt, and then it's over as soon as the government/army flex some muscle.

Maybe that is his greatest legacy then, that even after his death the forgiveness will continue.

Celebrities and statesmen die all the time and it rarely has any effect on me, but this guy was always at my fantasy dinner party and had such an easy charm about him you almost felt he was talking to you.

I am so glad he had a connection with rugby, bringing SA rugby effectively out of the wilderness and his childlike exuberance at the 95 RWC where he punched the air celebrating the win with this immense symbol of the Afrikaner's was political genius if you are a cynic, but in truth so genuine you could see he really mean't it.

A truly sad day.

Gents, please leave your religious convictions away from this thread.

Let's all pay our respects to the loss of a great man.

Thanks.

Getting back to the question about how SA will proceed from here on in.

More than 50% of our population is younger than 30

Effectively that means that more than half our population has had the majority portion of their life under the new political dispensation.

So they have had equal opportunity bar of course the social disparaties in our society.

Those who have completed their schooling over the past decade or more have integrated into our new economic dispensation where job opportunties have been equal, and soon they will become leaders or go into middle management or even higher.

So the "westernised" way of living has become part and parcel, of who we as South Africans are.

This portion of our population are now asking different questions and are becoming increasingly aware of corruption, mismanagement at the higher levels of the adminstration of our country.

So new challenges await us, how do you turn entitlement into accountability etc.

How do we turn South Africa into a fully functioning society.

And how do you beat the All Blacks without the great one as motivation?

Meh, that one we'll figure out by ourselves. The Great one will be sitting in Heaven watching whilst we pay.

Biltong wrote:Meh, that one we'll figure out by ourselves. The Great one will be sitting in Heaven watching whilst we pay.

Think you've inadvertently answered it.

Biltong wrote:Getting back to the question about how SA will proceed from here on in.

More than 50% of our population is younger than 30

Effectively that means that more than half our population has had the majority portion of their life under the new political dispensation.

So they have had equal opportunity bar of course the social disparaties in our society.

Those who have completed their schooling over the past decade or more have integrated into our new economic dispensation where job opportunties have been equal, and soon they will become leaders or go into middle management or even higher.

So the "westernised" way of living has become part and parcel, of who we as South Africans are.

This portion of our population are now asking different questions and are becoming increasingly aware of corruption, mismanagement at the higher levels of the adminstration of our country.

So new challenges await us, how do you turn entitlement into accountability etc.

How do we turn South Africa into a fully functioning society.

A huge challenge and while it is clear there is a dysfunctional government in power, hasn't there always been corruption of one kind or another in government. As far as the social disparity you refer to, i suppose the big question is, does the economic disparity remain along racial lines.

Is there a black middle class emerging?

Scratch wrote:

Biltong wrote:Getting back to the question about how SA will proceed from here on in.

More than 50% of our population is younger than 30

Effectively that means that more than half our population has had the majority portion of their life under the new political dispensation.

So they have had equal opportunity bar of course the social disparaties in our society.

Those who have completed their schooling over the past decade or more have integrated into our new economic dispensation where job opportunties have been equal, and soon they will become leaders or go into middle management or even higher.

So the "westernised" way of living has become part and parcel, of who we as South Africans are.

This portion of our population are now asking different questions and are becoming increasingly aware of corruption, mismanagement at the higher levels of the adminstration of our country.

So new challenges await us, how do you turn entitlement into accountability etc.

How do we turn South Africa into a fully functioning society.

A huge challenge and while it is clear there is a dysfunctional government in power, hasn't there always been corruption of one kind or another in government. As far as the social disparity you refer to, i suppose the big question is, does the economic disparity remain along racial lines.

Is there a black middle class emerging?

There is a huge middle class emrging, I went to a seminar about 5 years ago and at that time the biggest purchase power in SA were black woman who counted 3 million at the time.

Although some would have you beleive that the economic classes are divided by racial lines I can tell you there are more purchase power and disposable cash in previously disadvantaged populations rhan in the white population.

Mandela was an ordinary man that chose to do extraordinary things. His bravery in the face of adversity and commitment to doing what he knew was right is an example to everyone. I doubt we will see the like of him again, a hero of modern times.

Fantastic answer from Biltong, different challenges, and to be fair to the goofy government, they've made incredible progress balancing the delicate of uplifting the poor, without becoming like the previous government and taking land. Credit to Mandela, as it seems he alone realised you don't economically uplift 40 million by taking from 2 million, especially when state coffers were basically empty.

Always wanted to ask him, or at least have someone ask him how he did it. Succeed in the face of a private life which read like a Shakespearean tragedy. Father died when he was nine. First marriage failed. Second marriage his wife was unfaithful, two children died, one of whom had Aids. 27 years in a 3x2 cell, lost sight from pointless manual labour in prison. A bout of prostate cancer. You have to wonder if he ever looked back and wondered if it was worth it. Was the freedom of the masses really worth the pain he had to go through.

The ANC has serious challenges at the moment, chief of which is keeping hold of Gauteng, the economic powerhouse of Africa. They've gotten themselves into this position by alienating most of the Gauteng population.

Getting rid of white votes - "Don't let the boere take over"
Getting rid of the black middle class vote - "we don't want you acting like clever blacks"

Now they couldn't keep their hand out of the cookie jar, and commenced with e-tolling, which the entire province is against, months before elections... they've done a most remarkable job. If it wasn't for the fact they have no actual opposition, I would say it's all over.

Greatest human being of the 20th century. Changed a nation that so badly needed it...for us all. RIP.

I have a lot of respect for the achievement of Mandela.

But I'm finding the media beatification a little hard to stomach. There is some hypocrisy of the highest order going on.

For example the US government had Mandela on a terrorist watch lost until 2008. Yep 2008. And considered the ANC  a terrorist organisation even when they were in power due to the sourcing of weapons and funding from soviet states and Cuba and the multiple fatality attacks on government facilities and civilians, for example the Pretoria car bombing that killed 20 people.

The uk government did not support the sanctions against SA and hence resisted the changes Mandela sought to make. However the statements this week from conservative politicians would make you believe they were bedside buddies in prison.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Terrorist_Group_Profiles.pdf

Reading the alleged ANC "terrorist agenda" is interesting.

Gotta love the West. Pumps millions into keeping Egyptian citizens oppressed "for the sake of peace", does the same in S.A, and then celebrates when the horse they backed loses...

Mandela would have probably seen the hypocrisy, Clinton regarding Mandela as a father figure, visiting S.A. monthly, but kept forgetting to take his name off the terror watch... But he realised the country needed investment, and thus simply allowed the world to pretend they backed the liberation all the way. An article I read last night asked "If everyone was so against apartheid, why did it take 40 years for liberation?

A lot of the politicians in this country I've seen paying tribute have been trying to co-opt and airbrush his legacy at the same time. He was a radical, and his views were diametrically opposed to some of the right-wing slime that are trying to boost their own approval ratings by paying tribute to a man so much greater than they themselves. Two quotes by Mandela come to mind in particular;

"A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones."

"Let there be work, bread, water and salt for all."

I read a book called the State of Africa. The way many African leaders enrich themselves and mistreat their citizens is depressing. Many regimes are worse than the European empires that came before them, and they weren't exactly nice. It actually made me despair for humanity. It was difficult to read.

Nelson Mandela served one term and then retired. There's a lesson some other African leaders should take note of.

OK, guys, I have removed some contentious posts.

Please keep it respectful in honour of a great leader.

Seems like a few could take a leaf out of the great man's book...

Spooky the timing of the sevens. Great to see all teams paying their respects on the field at once. Felt a lot more fitting and appropriate the result in the final. Capable of inspiring beyond the grave. So great an event like this happened at the right time. No doubt SA will be trying to feed off that energy next year in the RC but you could sense the raw emotion in the SA team this weekend.

It was a fantastic weekend weekend to be South African, really. Our cricket team dismantled the #1 team in the world, and then crazy scenes at Nelson Mandela Bay. All behind the backdrop of this great man. I may have shed the odd tear watching the South Africa Mandela strived for (a united, successful one) be put into sharp focus. Former president Thabo Mbeki gave a great speech at the Synagogue, one which Mandela would have approved of, as it didn't glorify Mandelas life, and use senseless superlatives to try look intelligent - he gave an honest rip-roaring account of his time with a man he regarded as a surrogate father... then he asked some tough questions of the current government. Was pretty emotional watching him get a standing ovation.

Nice post kingraf. NZ expressed sorrow at the passing of Hillary and people like Peter Blake. But it's been a while since we honoured the life of a politician. It's good to be reminded that leaders can be instigators of positive change because all too often we have, all around the world, have had to put up with leaders motivated by self interest. SA is justifiably moved by the passing of this great leader but frankly the world sees him as a beacon in a world full of corruption and self interest. He reminds us of what's all too missing in our own political worlds, albeit to varying degrees.

I wonder what he would've thought of the UK's current set of "leaders", you know the ones who are "all in it together" with us, but still somehow managed to vote themselves an 11% pay rise? I can't see many of them being honoured on their passing.

With a shower of p1ss maybe

Love the story of how a bunch of department store workers in Ireland led the Irish anti-apartheid movement by getting sacked for refusing to sell South African products at the checkout. One of the ladies Mary Manning who was only 18 at the time has a street named after her in Johannesburg.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/how-11-striking-irish-workers-helped-to-fight-apartheid-1.1618635