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3rd Ashes Test, Perth

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Post by Stella Mon 09 Dec 2013, 9:36 am

First topic message reminder :

Western Australia next, which means staying up even later to watch the start of the third test.

You would think Perth is one place the Aussies should win, so what do we do?

Panic, and drop Swann, but leave Monty in? Or perhaps play four or five seamers? Has Stokes done enough? He showed plenty of attitude, so yes, he probably has.

Has Prior done enough to see him promoted to six, as Stokes isn't one..............yet? Maybe not but we have to try and win, and playing him at six, would enable us to play five bowlers again, with Monty dropping out.

Who comes in? Finn, the 90mph quickie, with a strike rate around 50? Reliable Tim? Just coming back from injury but will give 100%, won't get smacked around, and can bat a bit. Or rankin? This would be the biggest gamble imo, as he has no test experience.

My team:

Cook
Carberry
Root
Pietersen
Bell
Prior
Stokes
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:37 pm

Hibbz wrote:Even if/when England lose this test can we not claim it as 3-3 with two nail biting matches left?

Without that little magical urn it doesn't matter..

All about the urn.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:38 pm

Olly wrote:What are we looking like for the future?

Cook
Robson
Balance
Taylor
????
Stokes
Bairstow/Buttler?
Woakes
Broad
Spinner????
Finn

Dunno about many youngsters bar them, Lees at Yorks is the only other I really have heard of. Any other youngsters coming through, especially a spinner?

Also Duty do we not tour the windies in March?

Only limited overs rubbish. 3 ODIs and 3 T20s.

That's after the 5 ODIs and 3 T20s v Australia.

And just before the T20 World Cup (another one!).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/team/1.html?template=fixtures

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:40 pm

How the heck can you leave out root????

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:41 pm

Ah knew I was forgetting someone mysti!!!!

Extra batter crisis averted
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Post by Duty281 Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:44 pm

Crikey, England haven't half made a meal out of Cook's opening partner.

Compton, then Root, now Carberry. Common consensus suggests over to Robson for next summer.

Number 3 will probably be Root.

Middle-order is likely to be KP and Bell followed by a choice of Stokes (if you fancy an all-rounder), or any of Ballance/Taylor/Bairstow if you want a specialist bat.

Prior will get another chance surely.

Broad is a shoe-in. Anderson stays because class is permanent, same reason or Swann. The last spot is either Bresnan/Mills/Finn/Rankin/Panesar or maybe even Onions.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:47 pm

Anderson will play because we are at home and he is lethal at home.

broad again is pretty lethal at home.

Off course we are foregtting about Trotty.

He may be back playing again by then. and playing a home series isnt as straining.

Sri lanka will be a pretty decent test as well

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Post by JDizzle Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:51 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
JDizzle wrote:

Swann - Might retire. Sparcity of options. Monty a decent stop gap.


JS - I hope you're mistaken about Swann's retirement being imminent. He's certainly had a very disappointing series but his track record was mightily impressive until just a few weeks ago. I would have banked on him then to go on successfully for some time yet. He's never been the biggest spinner of the ball but his craft and guile have more than made up for that and then some. For an unfriendly or neutral spinning track, he would have been pushing for top spot of all current slow bowlers in my book. Surely things haven't changed that much or was I just absurdly wrong?

I would have a separate issue with Panesar replacing him in this series. Australia have an important edge with their superior fielding. Including Panesar would be throwing in the towel to this significant aspect of the game - some may feel we still have to make this change but I would encourage consideration of all likely consequences.

I hope so too. He's the best England spinner I've seen in my lifetime, not that much competition, but still mightily impressive. Just to be clear, I don't advocate dropping Swann for Monty. Only if Swann chooses to call it a day. He just looks like he's not enjoying his cricket anymore (not that anyone is!), I'm sure he will go away and think about it and we'll go from there. Kerrigan's CC figures are mightily impressive, hopefully he'll bounce back from the Oval and become our number 1 spinner in time.

To the person who picked me up on saying JA was the future, strictly what I said was I think he offers something in the future. He can be an experienced hand to offer some control and help with the integration of Finn/Stokes/Woakes, whoever else as the second and third seamers. Although being Swann's best mate, if one goes the other may follow.

The side I'd like to see for the summer:

Cook
Carberry - think it is a season to soon for Robson, wouldn't be worried to see him get a go.
Root - Just need to decide where he bats and stick to it.
KP
Bell
Stokes
Prior - He gets at least the SL Tests, Buttler probably the next in line.
Broad
Swann - if not Kerrigan.
Finn
Anderson - if not, take a punt on a young gun. Overton or Meaker, or someone of the like.

Taylor and Vince are unlucky to miss out. Has Vince ever opened in CC cricket? He bats top 3 in the shorter stuff.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:52 pm

Well we all hope Trott gets better and comes back, we miss him dearly I think. A cornerstone at 3
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Post by msp83 Mon 16 Dec 2013, 8:52 pm

KP's knee isn't fully fine is it? That was the impression we got before the series started though at that time it was said that he's in a space where he can manage the concern? Is there more to it than we know?
Don't think any of the spin options Englnd tried other than Monty in tests or limited overs are really good enough to replace Swann. Guildford's concerns regarding Monty's fielding are valid, but those aren't significant enough to pick a much inferior bowler. Adil Rashid has lost his way, Brigs isn't good enough in my view to take up the position of a serious wickettaking role in test, and Kerigan needs a hell lot of work to be considered for international cricket, its just one game and its hard and a bit unfair to judge someone on that sample size, but his performance was so horrible that his temperament became seriously suspect there.
As alfie mentioned a few times on these forums, Australia is the most difficult place for finger spinners. Harbhajan Singh struggled there, Ravichandran Ashwin struggled there, and even the great man Murali struggled there. So perhaps its bad form and unhelpful conditions combining to undermine Swann and he'll be back soon. England would want him back on top of his game pretty soon.
With the emergence of Ben Stokes, England should look to play 5 bowlers now, though Stokes' batting position should be up for a studied call. Hopefully Matt Prior can regain his consistency soon, or else England should look at Jos Buttler. With the 5th bowling option, they should stop picking bowlers for a decent but not spectacular economy rate. Tim Bresnan has to go and Steven Finn should be given a proper run in the side, it is worth remembering that a 6 test run is the best he has managed so far in his career. If Finn can't deliver on his obvious tallents, then England should look at an option who can be a wickettaking threat, a bowler with some pace would be very handy....... James Anderson is not that old though he has been around international cricket for more than 10 years, and I believe he too is facing a condition similar to Swann, his form has fallen away and the conditions offer him not a lot of help either, but with some time off, I believe he'll be back.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:01 pm

I am not sure butler is a better option than Barstow.

I dont want to put down wicket keeping or anything. But it is a skill were with practise you can get very good at. There is no reason why Barstow cant become a top WK.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:08 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I am not sure butler is a better option than Barstow.

I dont want to put down wicket keeping or anything. But it is a skill were with practise you can get very good at. There is no reason why Barstow cant become a top WK.

Well Buttler has moved to Lancashire to become a full time keeper hasn't he?

Not sure if Bairstow keeps for Yorkshire or not.

But good to see Buttler going out of his comfort zone to get better
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:15 pm

Butler is I the development side keeping isn't he?

That probably says more than the on tour no.2 to be honest. I don't know tbh. But the batting is the important factor for me..keeping well can be learnt if you are already a top fielder


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Post by kingraf Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:18 pm

Watson is like an Australian Carl Hooper...

That is all.
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:20 pm

No Graf.

Watson is a much better bowler..

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Post by kingraf Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:26 pm

marginally... Hooper could at least score 100 though.
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:29 pm

Funny day to talk about watsons lack of 100's   Wink

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Post by kingraf Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:32 pm

It was a vital hundred only in the way stabbing a man who has bullet holes in his chest is a vital blow.
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Post by Duty281 Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:33 pm

kingraf wrote:It was a vital hundred only in the way stabbing a man who has bullet holes in his chest is a vital blow.

You're a cheerful bar-steward aren't you? Laugh

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:34 pm

Aye.. Lol

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Post by kingraf Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:38 pm

I'm South African Doody, by nature we have a humorous, yet mildly sadistic sense of humour.
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:50 pm

Yep gotta love a saffa.

Hunting zebras and eating meat by the barrel.

A bit to good at Cricket and rugby at the moment though


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Post by kingraf Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:53 pm

If it's any consolation, we are utter trash at football... although we do at least have a victory over Spain, albeit in a friendly.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:13 pm

kingraf wrote:It was a vital hundred only in the way stabbing a man who has bullet holes in his chest is a vital blow.

The run out was pure gold.

It was like he got to 100, didn't know what to do next, so thought I'll get myself out anyway possible.

I'm sure he'll be back to nicking off in the 30's as soon as it becomes meaningful!
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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:47 pm

Question raised on Cricinfo: Is Stokes the new Gary Sobers?  Shocked 

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:58 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Question raised on Cricinfo: Is Stokes the new Gary Sobers?  Shocked 

I love people  Laugh 
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Post by guildfordbat Tue 17 Dec 2013, 12:53 am

A few names being mentioned here as Test possibilities for the near future.

I don't wish to add to the general feeling of doom but I do believe we need to be careful not to over rate players outside of the current squad. Yes, several of the team are having shockers but that doesn't mean others are better equipped now for Test cricket.

A few comments and observations based on my watching County Championship games over the last two or three seasons, mainly Surrey's home fixtures at the Oval. There is some good cricket played in the Championship but it is considerably less demanding and intensive than at  international level; particularly with the ball, as few bowling sides operate as a cohesive and fully effective unit.

I feel this makes a significant difference for a batsman stepping up to the Test environment. The continual pressure of facing consistent quality bowling in a Test will be something very alien to even a very effective county batsman; that's very much behind my recent comments about Carberry being out of his depth. Scoring a century against any county side remains a mighty fine achievement but there has increasingly become a set pattern as to how achieve it; against, say, Leics - see off Hoggard's opening overs, don't do anything rash off Claude Henderson and then look to milk the ordinary other bowlers. You just don't have that ''get out of jail'' card of the ordinary others in Tests and definitely not in this series.

That's always been the case to an extent with county cricket but it has become ever more so with the coming of central contracts and the consequence that the top English players now rarely play CC matches. There are many benefits of central contracts but I feel it fair to point out that Carberry would probably be a better batsman now if he had been facing the bowling of Broad, Anderson, Swann etc with some regularity over recent seasons.

This all means there has to be some element of a punt when deciding who is suitable (or is going to be) for Test cricket and particularly so in the case of batsmen. CC performances will give a useful indication and may make a deserving cause (as for Compton) but will imo provide less of a guide than in the past.

Perhaps concerningly but I do generally believe (with the odd exception) that the best England players are currently in Australia. I fully accept they've played very poorly. Whether they need carrot or stick or a combination of the two, I'm too far away to know. However, I believe we're kidding ourselves to believe there's another half dozen players who would benefit the team if they came in now. It would probably put the development of these players back as well - the hardest time to come into a team is when it's losing; Stokes has done more than ok but I do feel he's the exception and not the rule.

The odd comment on players mentioned and some who haven't been:

* Robson - have to reserve judgment. Saw him miss out twice in a 2nd XI match at Guildford last season - doesn't mean he won't get up there but shows nothing is guaranteed.

* Taylor - the best of the young guns out there for me.

* Wicket-keeper. ''Who else is there?'', asked Mike. Good question - I don't think any of the ones coming through are ready. The only alternative I could suggest for Prior would be a fill-in role from one of yesterday's men - either James Foster or Chris Read, both now well into their thirties but both still near immaculate with their glovework when I saw them last season and, which might appeal to some, punchy-type cricketers. Steve Davies should tick all the boxes but never seems to have been at his best with bat or gloves since Maynard's death.

* Kerrigan - saw him absolutely pummelled by Pietersen at Guildford in 2012. Kerrigan had no answer although to be fair Pietersen was at his scintillating best. It did though make me wonder how Kerrigan would get on against others of the world's best. His Test debut did not ease my concerns.

* Woakes - for me, lacks nip and variety with the ball to be a success at Test level. However, a much better and more stylish batsman than many give him credit for. Also - and hardly ever mentioned - a very fine fielder. If I'm wrong about his bowling, he could be a very useful addition at Test level but, if I'm right, everyone is better off if he is left to excel at county level.

* Keith Barker - mentioned him to Alfie the other day. Woakes' county colleague at Warks. Very effective left arm swing bowler and beligerent batsman. Surprised he hasn't attracted much interest earlier. Raw but worth a look. Also rated highly by Fists of Fury.

* Meaker - real pace and potential but 2013 was blighted by injuries. He's recently had shoulder and ankle ops and is said to be well on the way back to full fitness. If that proves to be the case and he gets in the groove early in 2014, he could be a serious contender.

* Mills - has frightening speed but so does a runaway train and he is about as accurate.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 2:14 am

Duty281 wrote:Be ever so positive England. You can't bat out 90 overs for a draw, but you can bat 65 overs at a good lick for victory.

I do believe that's there a world record score to be chasing down and it may just as well be England, the greatest sporting nation of them all, to hunt it down.

The spirit of '81? If England chase this down, they'll eclipse that. If England chase this down, it could very well lead to the greatest sporting comeback in our long and fabled history.

If.

Throw out the doubt. Remove the fear. Put the negativity to the back of your mind.

Remember the good days.

Cross all your fingers and toes. Believe that the six batsman left will complete the greatest innings of their careers. Hope that the fickle finger of fate turns England's way. Pray to a higher power. Miracles are possible.

Then you could just gently exhale the one word that fills every sinew and fibre of your being with courage. The one word that reminds you that impossible is nothing. The one word that sends chills down your spine.

The one word that rouses your very soul.

England.

*Coughs politely*

Whilst my head says this'll be all over in just over an hour, my heart tells me that there's always hope.

This day may be spoken about in hushed tones in a hundred years time.

You just never know, you never know with England.

In Stokes we trust, in the other 5 we believe - Come on England!

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 2:25 am

With play about to start you feel unless Stokes and Prior survive the first hour this will be done and dusted by lunch.
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Post by alfie Tue 17 Dec 2013, 2:25 am

Some interesting posts above re team going forward - liked guildford's thoughtful entry just before.

Personally rather against the idea of burying the body until you are quite sure the patient has stopped breathing ; so I am not in a hurry to attempt definitive conclusions until the tour has been ...concluded.
But :
I share many posters concerns re Carberry. OK , he has battled quite well...but I am unsure that he has offered much that Compton wasn't also promising a short time ago. Plus his fielding is a bit iffy (although I actually agree with a lot of what KP fan had to say a page or two back , I cannot take seriously his assertion that fielding - and economy rates - are relatively unimportant ! I reckon you need a lot of other value to the team to compensate for shortcomings in that area. Perhaps more than Carberry offers) OK as a stopgap , but not longterm , I think.
Robson ? Root was similarly well thought of by a lot of good judges , and he has so far justified their faith , so maybe this youngster will come through too , though I note guildford's caution. Going to be tried sooner or later : would hope the rest of the order might be performing a bit better by the time he gets his chance...
KP the eternal enigma. (I won't shoot him for yesterday. We'd all like him to be a bit more careful sometimes I suppose ; but on the other hand his attack often gets the team out of trouble , and yesterday he perhaps laid the foundations for Bell and Stokes just by showing the bowlers it wasn't all going to be one way traffic ) I hope he stays around. Rather doubt he has forgotten how to bat , or lost interest. Even very good players have quiet spells - it perhaps seems worse because several England players are having their's at the same time  Smile  So perhaps we should give the Australians a bit of credit too.

The bowling problem seems to me to revolve around a difficulty in finding a reliable fourth at present - shown up when the capable Bresnan got injured. If Anderson and Swann are showing signs of wear it may be because they have had to carry a fairly heavy load over the last few years... apart from the still improving Broad only occasional bursts from Finn have hinted at proper support (Monty in Asia too of course ; but he really should be kept in a box labelled "open on arrival in Dubai , Mumbai and associated destinations only")
If Finn were to become consistent , things would look vastly better - unfortunately he seems to have lost his way lately , and I am unsure whether he'd be better off going back to the county game or being thrown back into the arena in hopes...
Otherwise we have the declining Tremlett , the out of favour Onions - Rankin strikes me as getting a little old for a pace bowling debut - and those guildford mentioned above. Can only suggest all these ODIs may offer a useful test bed...

Stokes looks like the real deal. Fingers crossed...

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Post by alfie Tue 17 Dec 2013, 2:34 am

Duty281 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Be ever so positive England. You can't bat out 90 overs for a draw, but you can bat 65 overs at a good lick for victory.

I do believe that's there a world record score to be chasing down and it may just as well be England, the greatest sporting nation of them all, to hunt it down.

The spirit of '81? If England chase this down, they'll eclipse that. If England chase this down, it could very well lead to the greatest sporting comeback in our long and fabled history.

If.

Throw out the doubt. Remove the fear. Put the negativity to the back of your mind.

Remember the good days.

Cross all your fingers and toes. Believe that the six batsman left will complete the greatest innings of their careers. Hope that the fickle finger of fate turns England's way. Pray to a higher power. Miracles are possible.

Then you could just gently exhale the one word that fills every sinew and fibre of your being with courage. The one word that reminds you that impossible is nothing. The one word that sends chills down your spine.

The one word that rouses your very soul.

England.

*Coughs politely*

Whilst my head says this'll be all over in just over an hour, my heart tells me that there's always hope.

This day may be spoken about in hushed tones in a hundred years time.

You just never know, you never know with England.

In Stokes we trust, in the other 5 we believe - Come on England!

Great speech , Duty.

Pity it ain't St Crispin's Day  Smile 

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 2:47 am

England clinging on and Stokes and Prior looking to play themselves in again. 256 for 5.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:04 am

The first half hour over and England move on to 263 for 5 as the new ball approaches.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:13 am

50 partnership for Stokes and Prior. England 271 for 5.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:21 am

Stokes moves into the nervous nineties and posts the highest score by an Englishman in this series. New ball one over away. England 276 for 5.
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Post by Duty281 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:36 am

Still alive are England...no long how for though!

Very impressed with Stokes.

Come on lads, another hour into the next one.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:46 am

If only England had batted with this spirit and gumption from the start of the series. This pair trying to see off the new pair and are 296 for 5.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:51 am

Massive wicket and Prior caught behind chasing a wide ball. Relief for Australua and the tail is now exposed. England 296 for 6.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:54 am

England 208 runs away from an improbable win. Can England make it to lunch though?
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:56 am

Not a distinguished Tour so far from the South African wing of the England party . . . . . . .

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:00 am

It was a very poor shot. No need to play at it as it was so wide. Stokes moves on to 96 and England 299 for 6.
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Post by Pal Joey Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:03 am

Well done Ben Stokes! A very well deserved maiden Test ton.  clap
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:04 am

What a knock. Century up for Ben Stokes - the first of the series for England. I don't think he'll ever play another innings for England in tougher circumstances so he has done incredibly well. England 309 for 6.
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Post by alfie Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:22 am

 clap Well done Stokes

England may be finding their feet about 2 matches too late...

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:24 am

Still odds on an Australia win but England will just feel a bit better about life if this pair can survive to lunch. England 328 for 6 and need 176 runs for an impossible win.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:34 am

England reach lunch on 332 for 6. Still clinging on by their fingertips and frustrating Australia. Stokes 117 not out and England need 172 runs but more likely Australia need 4 more wickets. Looks odds on this won't be a draw.
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Post by Duty281 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:38 am

England still in at lunch, so I'm rather enjoying it.

All I can hear is the Barmy Army, so I'm rather enjoying it.

Stokes looks a fantastic prospect, so I'm rather enjoying it.

Still life, still a hope, still a chance. Have to get back in after lunch and resettle. Ball softening, Aussies slowing up - hope growing?

Also just a word for Mitchell Johnson - escaped a horrific injury by a fraction. A miracle he's still out there, and so pleased that he is.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:47 am

You feel this pair has to put on a very big partnership and if they can get to about 405 for 7 they really will start believing. Stokes is the key. As long as he is there England can retain hope but when/if he is dismissed it is definitely game over.

Whatever happens at least England are restoring a little pride and self confidence you feel as they are showing fight in very trying conditions. Selectors will now feel less apprehensive about giving untried players their chance now after Stokes has excelled.
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Post by Duty281 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:53 am

If England are going to do this, and it's a longggggg way off yet, they'll need two of Bresnan/Broad/Swann to get half centuries. Stokes will probably need to bat through, or get England within 50.

Anderson to hit the winning runs! Shocked

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:58 am

Care to dream lads!

Some of stokes shots were out of this world sexy though.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:59 am

The big question, whatever the result now, will be why couldn't England have batted in this manner at Sydney and in first innings at Adelaide and Perth. Complacency? Now when faced with harsh realities of losing the Ashes they have developed a bit of a backbone.
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