What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

Why buy them when you can bankrupt them and start from scratch?

The problem everyone has here is they need the wru cash from internationals, they need the cash from the millionaires, and they need the cash from big games against English sides and tv revenues to keep the game in Wales competitive.
Within that you then have a huge power struggle and inevitable self interests to contend with.

If we want British domestic rugby to retain its best players we need a model that can compete with the French.

If they need the cash from the millionaires, then deliberately bankrupting them to start again is hardly going to get them on side.

And how are they going to bankrupt them? Their TV money is theirs by rights, so this could/should still come to a club regardless of their relationship with the union. That's the major source of their income. The only other funding the WRU gives is for player release - if the participation agreement is not signed then the regions will lose £1.5m per annum but will have their best players available for an extra 6 weeks or so a season. That could work in the regions' favour, especially if better tv deals negates that £1.5m loss.

Just a question Gents

Does the IRB have any say in these regions changing from one Union to another.

Can the Regions make this move legally?

Allty wrote:Just a question Gents

Does the IRB have any say in these regions changing from one Union to another.

Can the Regions make this move legally?

The regions would need the sanction of WRU, and RFU, to compete in AP, or in any cross border competition between the two Nations. I don't believe they would need to seek IRB permission. The regions have signed up to the Rabo though, if I'm reading the latest Roger Lewis quotes right, and so would also need the approval of Celtic Rugby Ltd.

Griff wrote:If they need the cash from the millionaires, then deliberately bankrupting them to start again is hardly going to get them on side.

And how are they going to bankrupt them? Their TV money is theirs by rights, so this could/should still come to a club regardless of their relationship with the union. That's the major source of their income. The only other funding the WRU gives is for player release - if the participation agreement is not signed then the regions will lose £1.5m per annum but will have their best players available for an extra 6 weeks or so a season. That could work in the regions' favour, especially if better tv deals negates that £1.5m loss.

The money from the Heineken cup is not the UBS, it's a union competition. That's one of the big bones if contention the clubs in England And Wales (and france) have had with it and why they'd we the old wanglo cup where they often got more money per game than thy do from the hc even after renegotiating how much if it goes to them.
I'm don't know about the tv money from the pro12 but that's pretty minuscule anyway.

The wru want control of the club game back, in some cases for good reasons and with genuinely good intentions for both the development of the game and its soul. However the way they are going about it has been hugely damaging and is threatening to drive out the money that makes the game at all levels viable including the greater revenues available from a restructured European game and in the short term the Bt cash.

It's really a situation I dont see as having a right answer. On one hand you have the danger of split European leagues and clubs becoming as independent and dominating as in soccer, on the other European club rugby becoming utterly French and the damage that would cause long term to interest in the sport and the national sides.

We need a strong club game with real rivalries, competitive meaningful games across Britain. And to be fair I think all parties wan that too, they just have different visions about who should be in charge and how it should be structured and where the money flows.
I hope they find a solution that works. I'm not convinced the wru refusing to allow their regions to maximise their incomes and be viable sustainable and competitive is one.

[quote="Munchkin"][quote="Allty"]Just a question Gents

Does the IRB have any say in these regions changing from one Union to another.

Can the Regions make this move legally?[/quote]

The regions would need the sanction of WRU, and RFU, to compete in AP, or in any cross border competition between the two Nations. I don't believe they would need to seek IRB permission. The regions have signed up to the Rabo though,[i] if I'm reading the latest Roger Lewis quotes right[/i], and so would also need the approval of Celtic Rugby Ltd.
[/quote]


Thanks Munch.... its nothing like as straight forwards as the Regions seem to think.

Would I be right in thinking that if the Regions go ahead without the RFU etc blessing the players may/would not be covered by insurance

Allty wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Allty wrote:Just a question Gents

Does the IRB have any say in these regions changing from one Union to another.

Can the Regions make this move legally?

The regions would need the sanction of WRU, and RFU, to compete in AP, or in any cross border competition between the two Nations. I don't believe they would need to seek IRB permission. The regions have signed up to the Rabo though, if I'm reading the latest Roger Lewis quotes right, and so would also need the approval of Celtic Rugby Ltd.

Thanks Munch.... its nothing like as straight forwards as the Regions seem to think.

Would I be right in thinking that if the Regions go ahead without the RFU etc blessing the players may/would not be covered by insurance

I'm not sure, but think that all clubs/regions/provinces sort out insurance for themselves (might be different for clubs which are owned by Union?). The regions can't compete in Rugby Union unless they are sanctioned by their own union to do so, and so would be playing under a new code if not, and would have to provide match officials, etc for themselves.
If RFU allowed RRW to enter AP without the consent of WRU, then RFU would be in breach of IRB regulations.

IRB HANDBOOK:

2.1.2 A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to one Union and shall be
subject to the jurisdiction of the bye-laws, rules and regulations of that
Union. A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to the Union within
whose geographical boundaries its Home Ground is situated and shall
only be entitled to play in Matches organised, recognised or sanctioned by
that Union, unless specific approval has been given by both Unions. No
Club or Rugby Body shall be entitled to change the location of its Home
Ground or the name by which its senior teams are known, without the
prior written consent of the Union to which it is affiliated.

2.1.3 A Club or Rugby Body that wishes to change its Home Ground to a
location outside of the geographical boundaries of the Union to which it is
affiliated must, before taking any steps to effect such a change, obtain
written permission from the secretary of the Union to which it is affiliated,
who in turn, subject to permission being granted by his Union, will seek
the agreement of the secretary of the other Union.

2.1.4 For the purposes of Regulations 2.1.4 and 2.1.5, Home Ground shall
mean the ground within the geographical boundaries of the Union to
which the Club or Rugby Body is affiliated, at which the Club or Rugby
Body’s senior team plays its home fixtures and which is approved by the
Union to which the Club or Rugby Body is affiliated.

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

They'll let them fail and then start new teams.

[quote="Munchkin"][quote="Allty"][quote="Munchkin"][quote="Allty"]Just a question Gents......

the Club or Rugby
senior team plays its home fixtures and which is approved by the
Union to which the Club or Rugby Body is affiliated.[/quote]


Thanks again Munch it looks like we are in for a very interesting few weeks/months

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

They'll let them fail and then start new teams.

Teams Regions or Superclubs though, if so how many and where etc etc?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

They'll let them fail and then start new teams.

Teams Regions or Superclubs though, if so how many and where etc etc?

What difference does it make? My guess is representative regional sides. 2 + 1 - East/West + North development. Just a prediction.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

They'll let them fail and then start new teams.

Teams Regions or Superclubs though, if so how many and where etc etc?

They have already said Neath, Ponty and the North.

As they obliged to submit 4 teams, to the Pro12, curious to see how that pans out - 1 of the Regions to break ranks perhaps?

[quote="geoff999rugby"][quote="bedfordwelsh"][quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Griff"]Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?


[b]They have already said Neath, Ponty and the North.[/b]

[/quote]

I think that was said in Jest Geoff

Neath, Ponty and the North sounds like a good idea

The rules states though that any team that plays at Sardis Road Must be called PONTYPRIDD and play in BLACK AND WHITE

I'm still not convinced that the WRU want the regions to go bust. If they did then they could just stop paying them any money and set up alternative pro clubs right now. Why drip feed them money for years to come?

Id be happy if the current 4 clubs peeessed off to England and funded themselves like the rest of the Aviva Premiership does. Then the WRU can finally bring in proper regions that will serve the national team and bring back all the alienated supporters

Steffan wrote:Id be happy if the current 4 clubs peeessed off to England and funded themselves like the rest of the Aviva Premiership does. Then the WRU can finally bring in proper regions that will serve the national team and bring back all the alienated supporters

But you still won't have a team in the valleys and you'll still be crying into your cornflakes.

Griff wrote:

Steffan wrote:Id be happy if the current 4 clubs peeessed off to England and funded themselves like the rest of the Aviva Premiership does. Then the WRU can finally bring in proper regions that will serve the national team and bring back all the alienated supporters

But you still won't have a team in the valleys and you'll still be crying into your cornflakes.

Who said there was going to be a Valleys team? All people want are real regions to support

No such thing as we have no existing regions (unless you want a 22 team local authority league?).

There must be some clear geographical divisions in Wales, or counties or something. Is it so hard to divide the place into four divisions?

Intotouch wrote:There must be some clear geographical divisions in Wales, or counties or something. Is it so hard to divide the place into four divisions?

There were East vs West games going back some years. They were usually used as trials. You can divide things up any which way you want to. The key thing in this is sustainable professional rugby. I don't care if my region is Scarlets, Dyfed or West Wales - I just want to see rugby thrive in Wales.

If we do get a new arrangement could we please have a structured season also? League, Europe, 6N then Summer tour/RWC? or am I just being silly now?

"If we do get a new arrangement could we please have a structured season also? League, Europe, 6N then Summer tour/RWC? or am I just being silly now?"

No, you're being perfectly logical. I've heard that proposed by the unions too. From memory there's some issue with the top 14 that stops the 6 nations being moved. They already play at the end of August and don't want the 6 nations moved later because that would have to shift their calendar/ would clash with the top 14 or something like that.
There's also probably a reluctance to make it too "Summery".
It's a good plan and it may well happen if the unions push for it.

i think this debate is hysterical. does anyone from all the WRU supporters (who clearly dont go to RRW matches) think that whatever replacement they are dreaming up for the regions, is actually going to have any supporters? the only supporters of professional club rugby are the professional club rugby supporters!!!!! is somehow the WRU bankrupting and replacing the regions going to inspire 50,000 brnad new supporters who havent previously attended Regional matches? that's a big gamble if so.

regions should hold strong. better to go down in flames and let roger lewis and the wru blow themselves up trying to "create" an irish provincial model, than sign up to the same damoclean contract.

Steffan wrote:Neath, Ponty and the North sounds like a good idea

The rules states though that any team that plays at Sardis Road Must be called PONTYPRIDD and play in BLACK AND WHITE

Standard. Less regional than the Blouse you lot!!

Risca Rev wrote:

Steffan wrote:Neath, Ponty and the North sounds like a good idea

The rules states though that any team that plays at Sardis Road Must be called PONTYPRIDD and play in BLACK AND WHITE

Standard. Less regional than the Blouse you lot!!

I was actually mocking Cardiff rugby fans there who adopt this policy for the Arms Park

quinsforever wrote:i think this debate is hysterical. does anyone from all the WRU supporters (who clearly dont go to RRW matches) think that whatever replacement they are dreaming up for the regions, is actually going to have any supporters? the only supporters of professional club rugby are the professional club rugby supporters!!!!! is somehow the WRU bankrupting and replacing the regions going to inspire 50,000 brnad new supporters who havent previously attended Regional matches? that's a big gamble if so.

regions should hold strong. better to go down in flames and let roger lewis and the wru blow themselves up trying to "create" an irish provincial model, than sign up to the same damoclean contract.

Sure why should they go down in flames if they're heading to the promised land - The Aviva? Everything will be great there   

Steffan you clearly dont give two figs for regional rugby. that much is clear from yet another poll that you created which was missing the best option. bias obviously not an issue for someone who was born with one eye

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i think this debate is hysterical. does anyone from all the WRU supporters (who clearly dont go to RRW matches) think that whatever replacement they are dreaming up for the regions, is actually going to have any supporters? the only supporters of professional club rugby are the professional club rugby supporters!!!!! is somehow the WRU bankrupting and replacing the regions going to inspire 50,000 brnad new supporters who havent previously attended Regional matches? that's a big gamble if so.

regions should hold strong. better to go down in flames and let roger lewis and the wru blow themselves up trying to "create" an irish provincial model, than sign up to the same damoclean contract.

Sure why should they go down in flames if they're heading to the promised land - The Aviva?  Everything will be great there   

hmmm...lets just consider....will it be an improvement on the Rabo for the welsh clubs....answers on a welsh rugby forum munchkin if you dare go there.

gonna post this again as it seems to keep getting sidetracked by irish posters pooping themselves about the rabo (horse, gate, bolted if you ask me)

"i think this debate is hysterical. does anyone from all the WRU supporters (who clearly dont go to RRW matches) think that whatever replacement they are dreaming up for the regions, is actually going to have any supporters? the only supporters of professional club rugby are the professional club rugby supporters!!!!! is somehow the WRU bankrupting and replacing the regions going to inspire 50,000 brnad new supporters who havent previously attended Regional matches? that's a big gamble if so.

regions should hold strong. better to go down in flames and let roger lewis and the wru blow themselves up trying to "create" an irish provincial model, than sign up to the same damoclean contract."

Personally I would just rather have proper regions like Ireland do. Thats just my opinion though. I would rather these regions be playing in the Aviva as well

pls define proper regions in wales

quinsforever wrote:Steffan you clearly dont give two figs for regional rugby. that much is clear from yet another poll that you created which was missing the best option. bias obviously not an issue for someone who was born with one eye

Glad outsiders realise this. Of course proposing a new Valkeys Rugby team mostly (probably always) based in one place and operating on a third of the current regions' budget isn't living in cloud cuckoo land.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i think this debate is hysterical. does anyone from all the WRU supporters (who clearly dont go to RRW matches) think that whatever replacement they are dreaming up for the regions, is actually going to have any supporters? the only supporters of professional club rugby are the professional club rugby supporters!!!!! is somehow the WRU bankrupting and replacing the regions going to inspire 50,000 brnad new supporters who havent previously attended Regional matches? that's a big gamble if so.

regions should hold strong. better to go down in flames and let roger lewis and the wru blow themselves up trying to "create" an irish provincial model, than sign up to the same damoclean contract.

Sure why should they go down in flames if they're heading to the promised land - The Aviva?  Everything will be great there   

hmmm...lets just consider....will it be an improvement on the Rabo for the welsh clubs....answers on a welsh rugby forum munchkin if you dare go there.

I follow their forum sites, quins. Mostly the Scarlets. Thing is, quins, they would agree with my post to you. All will be well on the other side   

Will it be an improvement on the Rabo? Because the AP is allegedly a superior league according to AP club fans. That would be the same league that has recently produced so many HEC winners, wouldn't it? Currently the same league without European competition next year also.

I strongly suspect that RFU really don't want the regions in the Aviva. I also suspect neither do the PRL....

quinsforever wrote:pls define proper regions in wales

Something that represents a large area and has no relation to a town name or to a Welsh club. In my opinion id have 2 in the south and one in the north. The south teams would then travel around and take games on the road. Therefore every match would be like an event. So East Wales playing at say Eugene Cross Park would be massive for the town. West Wales playing at the Gnoll etc. Just something I think would be good for the supporters

Risca Rev wrote:Glad outsiders realise this. Of course proposing a new Valkeys Rugby team mostly (probably always) based in one place and operating on a third of the current regions' budget isn't living in cloud cuckoo land.

I dont want a Valleys team based in one ground though

quinsforever wrote:gonna post this again as it seems to keep getting sidetracked by irish posters pooping themselves about the rabo (horse, gate, bolted if you ask me)

"i think this debate is hysterical. does anyone from all the WRU supporters (who clearly dont go to RRW matches) think that whatever replacement they are dreaming up for the regions, is actually going to have any supporters? the only supporters of professional club rugby are the professional club rugby supporters!!!!! is somehow the WRU bankrupting and replacing the regions going to inspire 50,000 brnad new supporters who havent previously attended Regional matches? that's a big gamble if so.

regions should hold strong. better to go down in flames and let roger lewis and the wru blow themselves up trying to "create" an irish provincial model, than sign up to the same damoclean contract."

I imagine that the WRU hope to convince the old regional fans to go to their new regional sides. However this is completely speculative. There is no real proof that the WRU intend on replacing the current regions with new ones that they control. What they do keep pushing for is central contracts.

As for the rabo, there are a lot of obstacles in the way of the regions joining the AP. Read back through the thread for the ones that are listed. It may happen but if it does I don't see that it's necessarily better for the regions. How long will it be before one or more get relegated? It's not going to draw crowds or help them keep star players to play in a second division English league.

Even as an Ebbw fan and one who supports my Region I have said all alomg that the games should be taken around Gwent BUT IMO you have to have one ground in a Region which is seen as the home base.

That ground ideally should have the biggest capacity and be near the biggest populated area of that Region.

Steffan wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pls define proper regions in wales

Something that represents a large area and has no relation to a town name or to a Welsh club. In my opinion id have 2 in the south and one in the north. The south teams would then travel around and take games on the road. Therefore every match would be like an event. So East Wales playing at say Eugene Cross Park would be massive for the town. West Wales playing at the Gnoll etc. Just something I think would be good for the supporters

What I love about these arguments is that people say they want East and West Wales regions, and then do not base them in the east or west! Look at a map. West Wales is somewhere like Aberystwyth.  But people class Neath and Swansea as west! Look again at the map; Neath is possibly the most compass-south point you can get on the map! The only way it could be described as West is if you say "west of Cardiff".

Then where would East be??? Cardiff or Newport or Ebbw presumably, a stones throw from the West ground, geographically. Surely East Wales should be in the East, not the South?

But like the West, in the proper East there are no big population centres and no large stadia. So what people are really saying when they want new 'regions' for East and West is South Wales M4 corridor regions (like we have currently), and they'd probably need to play out of existing stadia (like they do currently) and as we haven't got any existing administrative or geographical entities to base them on then fan base is bound to fall to the next best thing (from a fans point of view) and that's the town/stadium that they're based in - and everyone else outside will feel 'disenfranchised'. That's what we have now. Back to square one.

Griff wrote:

Steffan wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pls define proper regions in wales

Something that represents a large area and has no relation to a town name or to a Welsh club. In my opinion id have 2 in the south and one in the north. The south teams would then travel around and take games on the road. Therefore every match would be like an event. So East Wales playing at say Eugene Cross Park would be massive for the town. West Wales playing at the Gnoll etc. Just something I think would be good for the supporters

What I love about these arguments is that people say they want East and West Wales regions, and then do not base them in the east or west! Look at a map. West Wales is somewhere like Aberystwyth.  But people class Neath and Swansea as west! Look again at the map; Neath is possibly the most compass-south point you can get on the map! The only way it could be described as West is if you say "west of Cardiff".

Then where would East be??? Cardiff or Newport or Ebbw presumably, a stones throw from the West ground, geographically. Surely East Wales should be in the East, not the South?

But like the West, in the proper East there are no big population centres and no large stadia. So what people are really saying when they want new 'regions' for East and West is South Wales M4 corridor regions (like we have currently), and they'd probably need to play out of existing stadia (like they do currently) and as we haven't got any existing administrative or geographical entities to base them on then fan base is bound to fall to the next best thing (from a fans point of view) and that's the town/stadium that they're based in - and everyone else outside will feel 'disenfranchised'. That's what we have now. Back to square one.

Come off it Griff - you know that's where the majority of Wales' population live. like you said, the South Wales valleys and three big urban areas south of the M4. Of course any talk of regional sides encompasses this area. Play small games around the clubs and big ones in the bigger stadia in Cardiff and Swansea.

There used to be east vs west trial games. I reckon people could get behind sides like that if it were done right ... and that's the clincher for me ... get the structure right, put the support in and treat the fans as valued stakeholders and it will work. I can't say that's what's happening at the moment. IMHO I think the current structure is unsustainable.

I agree Scarlet. That's exactly my point. People are criticising what we have, but let's be honest if the current regions won't work then east and west wales teams based away from the population centres definitely won't work. So, my question is this: scrap the current regions and what will they be replaced with? Answer: exactly the same as we've got, just with different names, I,e. East Wales playing out of Cardiff and West Wales playing a few miles down the road in the liberty. The valleys will still feel disenfranchised. Club supporters will still hark back to the glory days of club rugby. There's bound to be a colour on the team kit that will p*ss someone off within the East or the west.

As I've posted elsewhere the only thing that may take off is a region in the North as they've never had pro rugby so will have none of the historical bitterness and rivalry that blights the pro game now in the south.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:[

There used to be east vs west trial games. I reckon people could get behind sides like that if it were done right ... and that's the clincher for me ... get the structure right, put the support in and treat the fans as valued stakeholders and it will work. I can't say that's what's happening at the moment. IMHO I think the current structure is unsustainable.

There was East, West Gwent and North I think with (if memory serves me right) players playing for where they born not what current side they played in.

Griff wrote:I agree Scarlet. That's exactly my point. People are criticising what we have, but let's be honest if the current regions won't work then east and west wales teams based away from the population centres definitely won't work. So, my question is this: scrap the current regions and what will they be replaced with? Answer: exactly the same as we've got, just with different names, I,e. East Wales playing out of Cardiff and West Wales playing a few miles down the road in the liberty. The valleys will still feel disenfranchised. Club supporters will still hark back to the glory days of club rugby. There's bound to be a colour on the team kit that will p*ss someone off within the East or the west.

As I've posted elsewhere the only thing that may take off is a region in the North as they've never had pro rugby so will have none of the historical bitterness and rivalry that blights the pro game now in the south.

We've got to get beyond the petty crap. The major problem with the Blues etc is that it's still Cardiff etc. That's why people are disenfranchised. Disassociate from those clubs, create representative teams and you have a good chance of loosing the enmity. As I said the most important part is involving the fans. That will be key - find some way of giving fans a voice in the running of those sides - give us ownership of those teams in the sense that they represent us. Give people a reason to follow.

I have said for sometime now that its a geneartion thing, while people of my generation (am in mid 40s) and the other generations who have known the club system are still alive then there will be petty squabbles.

The Regions really need to concentrate on the kids of today and the future, the ones who have only ever known Regions and are not blinded by past histories.

People hark back to the club days as if they were constant glory years but we didn't win a HC in the club days and hadn't won a GS since the 70s.

There was still biitterness then to the likes of Cardiff and Newport from the likes of Ponty and Ebbw.

I played youthg rugby with Ian Watkins and he was told in no uncertain circumstances that if he wanted to further progress his Wales carear he neded to move from Ebbw.

There are a number of serious misconceptions on here that need to be adressed, Notch the WRU don't give us anything, the TV money we receive is our money, it is chanelled through the WRU, the only other money we receive is what is negotiated through the PA. THEY GIVE US NOTHING. It is different in Ireland because basically they (IRFU) own you. The WRU DO NOT, even though they would like to. Northampton have just been fined £60000 for releasing GN, if the WRU paid a comparable value for every player taken from the Regions OUTSIDE of the IRB windows (13 days instead of 7) before AI and 6N, the middle breaks in the 6N and the extra time before the Summer tour, that is 5 x30 x £60000 that would equal £9M, that puts into perspective what the PA could be, they also brag how they pay for the Regions Acadamies, even though the Ospreys have stated that they put in 4 times the amount they receive from the WRU.
Munchkin, you state you go on the Scarlets website and more would favour your argument over Quins, if you are talking about Scarlet Fever, that is NOT TRUE, they are overwhelmingly backing the RRW position, and apart for a few on the Os forum the same applies there, if the WRU win this fight and the Regions are disbanded, myself and very many others would not support anything the WRU would put in its place.
Finally, some of these grounds that people are saying that these teams could play at, they predominately only hold aprox. 6000, the talk at the moment is that they need 12000 to survive with the level of funding that they now have, when I started supporting the Os when they moved to the Liberty, the break even figure was 10000, which basically was covered
The RRW have said they could negotiate a much better TV deal than what exists at the moment. I BELIEVE THEM.

wayne wrote:There are a number of serious misconceptions on here that need to be adressed, Notch the WRU don't give us anything, the TV money we receive is our money, it is chanelled through the WRU, the only other money we receive is what is negotiated through the PA. THEY GIVE US NOTHING. It is different in Ireland because basically they (IRFU) own you. The WRU DO NOT, even though they would like to.  Northampton have just been fined £60000 for releasing GN, if the WRU paid a comparable value for every player taken from the Regions OUTSIDE of the IRB windows (13 days instead of 7) before AI and 6N, the middle breaks in the 6N and the extra time before the Summer tour, that is 5 x30 x £60000 that would equal £9M, that puts into perspective what the PA could be, they also brag how they pay for the Regions Acadamies, even though the Ospreys have stated that they put in 4 times the amount they receive from the WRU.
Munchkin, you state you go on the Scarlets website and more would favour your argument over Quins, if you are talking about Scarlet Fever, that is NOT TRUE, they are overwhelmingly backing the RRW position, and apart for a few on the Os forum the same applies there, if the WRU win this fight and the Regions are disbanded, myself and very many others would not support anything the WRU would put in its place.
Finally, some of these grounds that people are saying that these teams could play at, they predominately only hold aprox. 6000, the talk at the moment is that they need 12000 to survive with the level of funding that they now have, when I started supporting the Os when they moved to the Liberty, the break even figure was 10000, which basically was covered    
The RRW have said they could negotiate a much better TV deal than what exists at the moment. I BELIEVE THEM.

Wayne, if you think I'm wrong then it can be only that you don't read the Scarlets forums. Of course they back RRW. I never said they didn't, and it would be ridiculous to claim otherwise. They fully support the RRW. They also view a move to the Aviva as much preferable to remaining within the Rabo. If you don't believe that then you're not reading their comments. Some are quite anti-Rabo at the moment. I don't agree with much of what they have to say, but I can understand their fear, and their anger. They are passionate supporters of their region, and fear for its future. Quite a few believe that Lewis will kill the current regions off if they remain in Rabo, and so view a move to Aviva as offering some sort of security.
Now I could post a few of todays comments, never mind the mass of previous comments, to back up my claim, but that wouldn't be fair on the guys there. You, or anyone else, can check the validity of that claim for yourself though.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I have said for sometime now that its a geneartion thing, while people of my generation (am in mid 40s) and the other generations who have known the club system are still alive then there will be petty squabbles.

The Regions really need to concentrate on the kids of today and the future, the ones who have only ever known Regions and are not blinded by past histories.

People hark back to the club days as if they were constant glory years but we didn't win a HC in the club days and hadn't won a GS since the 70s.

There was still biitterness then to the likes of Cardiff and Newport from the likes of Ponty and Ebbw.

I played youthg rugby with Ian Watkins and he was told in no uncertain circumstances that if he wanted to further progress his Wales carear he neded to move from Ebbw.

Well that's certainly a worthwhile group to invest in but I do believe that the structure is a bit of a horlicks at the moment. We need to cut our cloth according to our means. Most of all we need to get everybody pulling together. We're too small a country to be fighting each other all the time.

Munchkin, I apologise I thought you were advocating the opposite scenario to what RRW propose.

wayne wrote:Munchkin, I apologise I thought you were advocating the opposite scenario to what RRW propose.

No worries, wayne. Thought maybe you did, but wasn't sure. I get the wrong end of the stick often enough so can't grumble   

Griff wrote:Rebuilt as what Notch? More invented 'regions'?

The WRU WILL NOT buy the regions out. Too much risk, and they do not take such risks.

Right now, the problems are firstly the regions are failing as businesses and can not afford to keep the real assets of Welsh rugby- the players- and secondly, the regions and the Union have different objectives. The regions don't need removed but they certainly need revamped and they need rethought- and they need a change of management. Whats more, they can't be trusted with the responsibility of holding the players contracts. Having the Union in charge of that makes the most sense, as they have the deepest pockets and the most vested interest in keeping players in Wales which is surely what the fans want.

The WRU can only have confidence in releasing the funds to secure players if they have control of the negotiations and if they have control over contracts. With central contracts paid for by the WRU out of TV money generated by the national team and regions, the regions will be left with much less funding from the WRU but also no expenses with regards to their playing staff. With the bulk of the costs falling on the WRU and the bulk of the budget available to pay all the pro players coming from money earned from the national team they can't be accused of not providing adequate funds anymore and the regional management can then focus on trying to make the regions a more attractive proposition.

All of this would require the current regional set-ups to agree to step aside. It's getting rid of those who have tried and failed that is the problem for the WRU.