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Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread II

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Post by George Carlin Fri 24 Jan 2014, 6:05 pm

A. Edinburgh
 
Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread II Bremne10
 
1. Pre-season
 
Fri 30 Aug 2013, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 15 - 5 Newcastle Falcons
 
Fri 23 Aug 2013, 19:30
Northampton Saints 24 - 6 Edinburgh Rugby
 
2. 2013/2014 Season - Played
 
Sat 7 Sep, 19:15
Munster Rugby 34 - 23 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 13 Newport Gwent Dragons
 
Sat 21 Sep, 18:30
Ospreys 44 - 10 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 9 - 22 Scarlets

Sun 6 Oct, 14:05
Cardiff Blues 29 - 12 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 25 Oct, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 20 - 13 Benetton Treviso

Fri 1 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 23 Zebre

Fri 22 Nov 19:05
Ulster Rugby 41 - 17 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 29 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 43 - 10 Connacht

Fri 20 Dec 19:35
Edinburgh Rugby 11 - 6 Leinster

Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors

Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby

3. 2013/2014 Season - Next 3 Games
 
Sun 9 Feb 13:05
Newport Gwent Dragons  v  Edinburgh Rugby

Sat 15 Feb 17:00
Connacht Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby

Sat 22 Feb 14:30
Scarlets v Edinburgh Rugby

B. Glasgow
 
Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread II Capald10
 
1. Pre-season
 
Sat 31 Aug 2013, 15:00
Exeter Chiefs 26 - 29 Glasgow Warriors
 
2. 2013/2014 Season
 
Fri 6 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 22 - 15 Cardiff Blues
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:05
Ulster Rugby 12 - 13 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 20 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 12 - 6 Leinster Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:30
Zebre 17 - 24 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 5 Oct, 18:30
Scarlets 12 - 17 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 25 Oct, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 6 - 13 Munster Rugby

Sat 2 Nov, 17:00
Connacht Rugby 12 - 19 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 22 Nov, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 8 - 23 Newport Gwent Dragons

Fri 29 Nov, 19:05
Ospreys 16 - 28 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 20 Dec, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors P - P Benetton Treviso

Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors

Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby

3. 2013/2014 Season - Next 3 Games
 
Sun 9 Feb 14:00
Glasgow Warriors v Connacht Rugby

Sat 15 Feb 18:30
Cardiff Blues v Glasgow Warriors

Sun 23 Feb 14:30
Newport Gwent Dragons   v   Glasgow Warriors
 
Any and all patter about these teams is welcome.
 
Any jingoism, sledging or graceless kicking of anyone whilst they are up or down will see posts deleted.
 
Be gracious and be constructive.
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Post by IanBru Fri 24 Jan 2014, 6:08 pm

I'll start off: 'Glasgow have potential, Edinburgh have momentum, and the exiles have reputation. We should pick predominantly from..."

Discuss.
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Post by RDW Fri 24 Jan 2014, 6:10 pm

clap

So I wonder where this thread will take us over the next 20 pages?? The last one was a real acid trip of a journey!

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Post by George Carlin Fri 24 Jan 2014, 6:16 pm

IanBru wrote:I'll start off: 'Glasgow have potential, Edinburgh have momentum, and the exiles have reputation. We should pick predominantly from..."

Discuss.
I think what the 6 Nations has taught us is the importance of picking on form.

Year after year I have seen some players ignored as they are not the incumbents and have suffered in comparison to perhaps less feted opposition who have clearly carried club form into internationals.

In terms of whom I would say are currently playing well, I am slightly worried as all I can really come up with is Swinson, Brown, Laidlaw, Fife and Hogg. And Fife is not in the match day squad for the Ireland match.

I understand that Beattie, R Gray and Strokosch have also been playing well but can Who Cares or another of our French correspondents confirm what they think?
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Post by Totalflanker Fri 24 Jan 2014, 7:39 pm

Strokosch is playing 7 for Perpignan this weekend, so options a plenty for Johnstone to screw around further with folks natural backrow positions - (Or do the French play left and right rather 6 and 7?)

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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sat 25 Jan 2014, 10:02 am

George Carlin wrote:
IanBru wrote:I'll start off: 'Glasgow have potential, Edinburgh have momentum, and the exiles have reputation. We should pick predominantly from..."

Discuss.
I think what the 6 Nations has taught us is the importance of picking on form.

Year after year I have seen some players ignored as they are not the incumbents and have suffered in comparison to perhaps less feted opposition who have clearly carried club form into internationals.

In terms of whom I would say are currently playing well, I am slightly worried as all I can really come up with is Swinson, Brown, Laidlaw, Fife and Hogg. And Fife is not in the match day squad for the Ireland match.

I understand that Beattie, R Gray and Strokosch have also been playing well but can Who Cares or another of our French correspondents confirm what they think?

GC,

Lamont ,Jackson, Harley, Fusaro and Wilson all looking good for The Warriors at the moment in addition to Swinson and Hogg. Quite a few think our best player this season has been between Swinson and Lamont.
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Post by George Carlin Sat 25 Jan 2014, 12:16 pm

Schiz - I think what I meant was that I haven't seen consistently good form all season. Lamont and Wilson I'll give you, but it's been a worryingly short period of time since both these guys were quite badly injured.

Jackson has done nothing to convince me that he has the temperament and consistency for an international 10. Fozzy was embarrassed against Cardiff in the Heineken and much as I am a big Harley fan, he just hasn't been as influential this year. This time last year, I would have seriously considered picking Harley over Strokosch. Now there's no way that I would.
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Post by Nematode Sat 25 Jan 2014, 12:42 pm

I want Peter Capaldi to be our new coach and just stand on the sideline with a megaphone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfiEK3Ovv5o

In fact I'd pick him in our 15 and just get him to insult the opposition at the ruck. They'd be laughing so much we'd score 1000000 tries.

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Post by IanBru Sat 25 Jan 2014, 11:07 pm

Nem, I'm always tempted to quote Tucker on 606, but I suspect that 'Tucker's Law' would burn out the swearing filter. Very Happy
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Post by Nematode Sun 26 Jan 2014, 11:53 am

IanBru wrote:Nem, I'm always tempted to quote Tucker on 606, but I suspect that 'Tucker's Law' would burn out the swearing filter. Very Happy

One of his best lines:

"From bean to cup, you f**k up"

There's one from in the loop about being called English but I don't know if I can say that here.


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Post by Notch Sun 26 Jan 2014, 12:38 pm

Malcolm Tucker wrote:I just wanted to say to you by the way of, ah, introductory remarks that I'm extremely miffed about todays events and in my quest to make you understand the level of my unhappines, I'm likely to use an awful lot of... what we would call... violent sexual imagery. And I just wanted to check that neither of you would be terribly offended by that.

Thats the cleanest, funniest quote I can get through the swear filter.  Smile 
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Post by George Carlin Sun 26 Jan 2014, 12:55 pm

Some of the non-swearing quotes are good too:

1. "I'm here to read you the Riot Act. At least, excerpts from it".

2. (To Toby and Ollie):

(a) "Shut it, Love Actually. Want me to hole punch your face?"

(b) "Feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t, you're not on a punt now."

(c) "Hey, you! Ron Weasley, you do it."

3. "Come the f*** in or f*** the f*** off."

And when he calls the folically challenged home office senior minister "Baldemorte" I knew I loved this programme.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Sun 26 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
GC,

Lamont ,Jackson, Harley, Fusaro and Wilson all looking good for The Warriors at the moment in addition to Swinson and Hogg.   Quite a few think our best player this season has been between Swinson and Lamont.

Anyone would think Glasgow have had a storming season!!

The only player who has been consistently good all season is Tim Swinson. Hogg has shown glimpses in the last couple of games, as has Fusaro.

Whilst Lamont always shows passion, that just isn't enough. We're talking about international rugby, and we're talking about the wing. Ireland will be looking at firecracker wingers like Gilroy, Bowe, Zebo and Fitzgerald, with excellent players like Trimble and David Kearney likely to miss out. The best hope for Lamont is that it's a slow, rainy turgid affair, with the wingers required principally in a defensive capacity or to run the ball up the middle into contact.

He's been a great servant to Scottish rugby, and to be honest he probably makes my XV regardless given the lack of left winger alternatives, but "form" is all relative. He just isn't quick enough to play left wing these days. When was the last time he scored what you could call a sharp finish?

He doesn't make the Glasgow XV if everyone's fit. That says it all.

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Post by Notch Sun 26 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

George Carlin wrote:And when he calls the folically challenged home office senior minister "Baldemorte" I knew I loved this programme.

 Laugh 

Yes. I love Armando Ianucci.
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Post by George Carlin Sun 26 Jan 2014, 2:07 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
GC,

Lamont ,Jackson, Harley, Fusaro and Wilson all looking good for The Warriors at the moment in addition to Swinson and Hogg.   Quite a few think our best player this season has been between Swinson and Lamont.

Anyone would think Glasgow have had a storming season!!

The only player who has been consistently good all season is Tim Swinson. Hogg has shown glimpses in the last couple of games, as has Fusaro.

Whilst Lamont always shows passion, that just isn't enough. We're talking about international rugby, and we're talking about the wing. Ireland will be looking at firecracker wingers like Gilroy, Bowe, Zebo and Fitzgerald, with excellent players like Trimble and David Kearney likely to miss out. The best hope for Lamont is that it's a slow, rainy turgid affair, with the wingers required principally in a defensive capacity or to run the ball up the middle into contact.

He's been a great servant to Scottish rugby, and to be honest he probably makes my XV regardless given the lack of left winger alternatives, but "form" is all relative. He just isn't quick enough to play left wing these days. When was the last time he scored what you could call a sharp finish?

He doesn't make the Glasgow XV if everyone's fit. That says it all.
Oh god, I'm depressed now. Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread II Hanghe11
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Post by funnyExiledScot Sun 26 Jan 2014, 3:29 pm

I tend to have that effect on people......(should have become a Church of Scotland minister...).

We need to unearth a few genuinely pacey wingers who can finish. Visser and Maitland are fine in the gas department, as are Tommy Seymour and Dougie Fife, but only one of those players is truly a left winger.

Such a shame we lost Thom Evans, but there must be some genuine pace lurking somewhere out there that we can get into a Scotland jersey. No more converted centres being stuck out on the wing.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 26 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

What has happened to Jamie Farndale? Is he still in the U20s? 

He scored eight tries in IRB Junior World Cup Championships (2012 and 2013), placing him third in the all-time player tries for that championship (behind Zac Guilford and Andrew Conway).

Surely that boy has some gas?
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Post by RDW Sun 26 Jan 2014, 3:58 pm

He's in the under 20s

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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun 26 Jan 2014, 4:03 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
GC,

Lamont ,Jackson, Harley, Fusaro and Wilson all looking good for The Warriors at the moment in addition to Swinson and Hogg.   Quite a few think our best player this season has been between Swinson and Lamont.

Anyone would think Glasgow have had a storming season!!

The only player who has been consistently good all season is Tim Swinson. Hogg has shown glimpses in the last couple of games, as has Fusaro.

Whilst Lamont always shows passion, that just isn't enough. We're talking about international rugby, and we're talking about the wing. Ireland will be looking at firecracker wingers like Gilroy, Bowe, Zebo and Fitzgerald, with excellent players like Trimble and David Kearney likely to miss out. The best hope for Lamont is that it's a slow, rainy turgid affair, with the wingers required principally in a defensive capacity or to run the ball up the middle into contact.

He's been a great servant to Scottish rugby, and to be honest he probably makes my XV regardless given the lack of left winger alternatives, but "form" is all relative. He just isn't quick enough to play left wing these days. When was the last time he scored what you could call a sharp finish?

He doesn't make the Glasgow XV if everyone's fit. That says it all.

Well I know Glasgow have not had a storming season but then what ticks me off is that Edinburgh have been woeful too and when one of their Scot qualified players puts 2 slightly better than average games together he is a shoe in for Scotland - Tonks, Gilchrist and Fife are perfect examples. Still waiting for De Luca to justify his inclusion but that goes back a few seasons now unfortunately and you can only assume he has something damning on the SRU ! At least Lamont gives you 80 mins of effort and can tackle ferociously - viz. the hit he put on Armitage last week - awesome!
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Post by funnyExiledScot Sun 26 Jan 2014, 7:18 pm

Yawn. Yet another silly Glasgow vs Edinburgh rant from Schizoid.

I didn't say anything about Edinburgh all. I was merely pointing out that by saying you have no less than 7 "in form" players at Glasgow, you'd think Glasgow would have done rather better in recent fixtures.

In addition, Sean Lamont's limitations as an international winger have nothing to do with Edinburgh. If it makes you happy, I'll concede that as well as being second choice at Glasgow behind DTH, he'd also be second choice at Edinburgh behind Visser. Still, if you're content with just 80 minutes of effort and the odd big tackle (let's ignore his weaknesses in terms of positioning and pace in that regard) then fine. I'd personally rather set my sights higher.

There. Fair's fair.

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Post by Cambo Sun 26 Jan 2014, 11:35 pm

Mr FES! Well said that man! How refreshing to hear proper considered argument and discussion from a poster with real rugby knowledge, rather than the [cough] anti Edinburgh rhetoric spouted by [ahem] like 21st and his little mate Jimbopip. Hats off to you sir!

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Post by George Carlin Mon 27 Jan 2014, 5:36 am

Cambo wrote:Mr FES! Well said that man! How refreshing to hear proper considered argument and discussion from a poster with real rugby knowledge, rather than the [cough] anti Edinburgh rhetoric spouted by [ahem] like 21st and his little mate Jimbopip. Hats off to you sir!
Cambo - I have removed some of the fruitier language from your post.
No problem with the sentiment, but can we keep this as antagonism/personal insult-free as possible?
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Post by EWT Spoons Mon 27 Jan 2014, 8:42 am

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
GC,

Lamont ,Jackson, Harley, Fusaro and Wilson all looking good for The Warriors at the moment in addition to Swinson and Hogg.   Quite a few think our best player this season has been between Swinson and Lamont.

Anyone would think Glasgow have had a storming season!!

The only player who has been consistently good all season is Tim Swinson. Hogg has shown glimpses in the last couple of games, as has Fusaro.

Whilst Lamont always shows passion, that just isn't enough. We're talking about international rugby, and we're talking about the wing. Ireland will be looking at firecracker wingers like Gilroy, Bowe, Zebo and Fitzgerald, with excellent players like Trimble and David Kearney likely to miss out. The best hope for Lamont is that it's a slow, rainy turgid affair, with the wingers required principally in a defensive capacity or to run the ball up the middle into contact.

He's been a great servant to Scottish rugby, and to be honest he probably makes my XV regardless given the lack of left winger alternatives, but "form" is all relative. He just isn't quick enough to play left wing these days. When was the last time he scored what you could call a sharp finish?

He doesn't make the Glasgow XV if everyone's fit. That says it all.

Well I know Glasgow have not had a storming season but then what ticks me off is that Edinburgh have been woeful too and when one of their Scot qualified players puts 2 slightly better than average games together he is a shoe in for Scotland - Tonks, Gilchrist and Fife are perfect examples.    Still waiting for De Luca to justify his inclusion but that goes back a few seasons now unfortunately and you can only assume he has something damning on the SRU !    At least Lamont gives you 80 mins of effort and can tackle ferociously - viz. the hit he put on Armitage last week - awesome!  

Shiz I know you are a passionate Glasgow supporter and fair play to you for that, what I would say though is that the reason I think that the likes of Tonks & Fife are being talked about for a run out this tournament is that despite Jackson apparently* playing well for Glasgow he’s never really shown he’s up to it at an international level.  Tonks is doing well at the moment and given the lack of options probably deserves a run out.  Fife is the joint 2nd top try scorer in the Rabo currently and it might be a short lived thing, but if the lad is in form and full of confidence then surely he’s worth a punt in the side?

Gilchrist calls the lineout for Edinburgh (I believe) and as that’s not something that many others in the national side do (according to Hamilton) it’s possibly a reason for having him involved.  Also he’s actually half decent.  With that said I would still probably be looking at Swinson and R. Gray as my starting lock pairing.

I think the issue that we have around Lamont is that, yes he’ll give you 80 mins of heart and determination, but he also has in the past popped out of the defensive line creating a gap that has been exposed, in the interests of full disclosure it has on occasion paid off for him, but it’s a unnecessary risk.  Also for the number of Int matches he’s played, his try scoring record is pretty poor.

Is De Luca in the side?  If he is then based on form this season he doesn’t deserve it, I guess the hope is that one day he’ll produce the potential that he’s hinted at but never delivered at Int level.  Shouldn’t be in the match day squad.

I appreciate that being an Edinburgh fan I may on occasion have a slightly red & black tinted view, but when it comes to the national side I have no allegiance to a particular club, if the best thing for Scotland is to have a squad full of players from Glasgow and none from Edinburgh then so be it, it just means the players at Edinburgh need to work harder to ensure that next time they are worthy of a place.  

On that, I’m not 100% convinced that Denton deserves to be a shoe in at no.8.  His performance against Munster was pretty sloppy, especially defensively.  He also seems to have real problems holding on to the ball and his play is restricted to ‘pick up ball and run into first opposition player’, which once the opposition have figured out (doesn’t take long) does mean that he’s pretty limited, especially if Ireland operate the choke tackle effectively on him.  As such, do you think Wilson would be a better bet?  Whenever I’ve seen him play he looks like a very good player, but wondering how the court case and recent injuries have impacted his play.

*. I say apparently as I’ve not seen that much of him and the few games I’ve seen he’s not looked great, but happy to take your word on his form given you’ll see him play most weeks.

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Post by George Carlin Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:24 am

I go back and forth about Denton.

Wilson and Beattie both have better hands, are quicker over the first 10 yards, can offload and link but are less destructive carriers. That said, as I've mentioned before, I want the loose forwards who are going to make fewer mistakes. If Ireland play Henry and Tuohy, then they will flood the breakdown and we cannot have anyone hanging around in the backline waiting for someone to pass the ball to them - I know that this is a 'broken record' sort of criticism with Denton but it's not without foundation.
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Post by jimbopip Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:39 am

Spoons, thank you for a reasoned and sensible contribution. I'm in almost total agreement with everything you've said.
Wingers are flighty creatures: they either have a nose for the line or they don't. McVisser most certainly does and this probably excuses any other shortcomings in his game.If the rest of the team are able to cover for him Schlong did in his early days but seems to have lost it, conversely while becoming a better all round player, and Sean Maitland seems to be developing line amnesia too.Which doesn't matter if the rest of the team are able to cover for them by scoring tries The only caveat I have with Fife is that he reminds me of Lee Jones; young player bursts on to scene, scores lots of tries gets pitched in to national side, and then...
I think Denton flatters to deceive: he is big and athletic and looks exciting in the open but as you say loses possession all too often. Wilson is less flashy but more productive. He makes ground and usually ensures continuity. Oh yes, he hits the opposition in a Strokosh like manner too.
De Luca has never really lived up to his early promise in a Scotland shirt. Looking forward it has to be; Dunbar, Horne, Taylor or Grove at 13. Or even Hogg and Maitland at 15, Visser and Fife on the wings if you are going for broke.
Ruaridh Jackson is, as ever an enigma, he is our most talented and creative 10. But is he our most effective? Graeme Sounness once argued that Kenny Dalglish was a better player than Maradonna because over a season Dalglish would win more games for you rather than put in moments of breathtaking genius. Are Tonks and Weir more likely to win us games? A decision needs to be made soon as we don't have that many games before the World Cup.
If Scotland win on Saturday and then gub England no one will carp about the ratio of east to west coast players. If we lose both then fingers will be pointed. And you know whose fault it will be.

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Post by EWT Spoons Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:44 am

I guess it all comes down to what type of game we’re looking to play.  If we’re looking to play a physical pick and drive sort of game then Denton is probably a good shout for that role.  When on form, he does make decent yards and is undoubtedly a good player.  However he’s not really into the whole passing side of rugby, so if we’re looking to play a faster off loading type game then perhaps Beattie/Wilson might be a better bet

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:31 am

jimbopip wrote:The only caveat I have with Fife is that he reminds me of Lee Jones; young player bursts on to scene, scores lots of tries gets pitched in to national side, and then...

I think Fife is a more complete player than Jones. It was really his form for the 7's team that put Jones forward. Fife is a very solid player, good basics, doesn't miss tackles and has an ability to slip through gaps. Lee Jones was always a gamble. He'd played a lot less 15-a-side rugby than Fife at this point, and hadn't really been properly tested. That Malzieu try still bothers me - Jones was completely blown away.

Fife's still behind Maitland and Seymour for my money as a right winger, but he's closing the gap and has plenty confidence at the moment. I've said it a few times but I actually think Fife should shift inside to 13, where he played his first game for Edinburgh. What that requires though is for Visser and Walker to both be fit and on form, and both seem quite a way off.

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Post by Dollar Bill Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:15 pm

RE: No 8

I'd be tempted to go with Beattie or Wilson ahead of Denton for the Ireland game.

Denton will run all day but tends to look for contact rather than to offload. As a result he can get isolated and is therefore more vulnerable to the choke tackle than Beattie or Wilson, who look to keep the ball alive.


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Post by MacKnocked-on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:42 pm

jimbopip wrote:Spoons, thank you for a reasoned and sensible contribution. I'm in almost total agreement with everything you've said.
Wingers are flighty creatures: they either have a nose for the line or they don't. McVisser  most certainly does and this probably excuses any other shortcomings in his game.If the rest of the team are able to cover for him Schlong did in his early days but seems to have lost it, conversely while becoming a better all round player, and Sean Maitland seems to be developing line amnesia too.Which doesn't matter if the rest of the team are able to cover for them by scoring tries The only caveat I have with Fife is that he reminds me of Lee Jones; young player bursts on to scene, scores lots of tries gets pitched in to national side, and then...
I think Denton flatters to deceive: he is big and athletic and looks exciting in the open but as you say loses possession all too often. Wilson is less flashy but more productive. He makes ground and usually ensures continuity. Oh yes, he hits the opposition in a Strokosh like manner too.
De Luca has never really lived up to his early promise in a Scotland shirt. Looking forward it has to be; Dunbar, Horne, Taylor or Grove at 13. Or even Hogg and Maitland at 15, Visser and Fife on the wings if you are going for broke.
Ruaridh Jackson is, as ever an enigma, he is our most talented and creative 10. But is he our most effective? Graeme Sounness once  argued that Kenny Dalglish was a better player than Maradonna because over a season Dalglish would win more games for you rather than put in moments of breathtaking genius. Are Tonks and Weir more likely to win us games? A decision needs to be made soon as we don't have that many games before the World Cup.
If Scotland win on Saturday and then gub England no one will carp about the ratio of east to west coast players. If we lose both then fingers will be pointed. And you know whose fault it will be.

To me Maitland doesn't look selfish enough sometimes if that makes sense, often looking to offload to supporting players rather than go for it himself. Maybe he's been told to play the percentages but I'd rather he backed himself more. Can't remember which of the Autumn Internationals it was but he made a fantastic break and then passed to Lamont who then failed to score, if Maitland had gone for it himself he probably would have scored.

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Post by RDW Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:45 pm

That was the Australia game.

To me it is a lack of confidence – the Maitland that played for Canterbury Crusaders would have scored that try, or at least had the confidence to pin his ears back and go for it.

I hope he’s not being over coached or given conflicting instructions – we need him scoring a shed load of tries, that should be his focus!

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Post by MacKnocked-on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:52 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That was the Australia game.

To me it is a lack of confidence – the Maitland that played for Canterbury Crusaders would have scored that try, or at least had the confidence to pin his ears back and go for it.

I hope he’s not being over coached or given conflicting instructions – we need him scoring a shed load of tries, that should be his focus!

I agree, as I said, it looks as though he's playing the percentage game which is a waste for a player of his undoubted quality.

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Post by cakeordeath Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:58 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That was the Australia game.

To me it is a lack of confidence – the Maitland that played for Canterbury Crusaders would have scored that try, or at least had the confidence to pin his ears back and go for it.

I hope he’s not being over coached or given conflicting instructions – we need him scoring a shed load of tries, that should be his focus!

Personally I think he has been woeful since being with The B & I Lions

*Edit* A has Hogg, who is thankfully starting to show some good form now

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Post by RDW Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:03 pm

Woeful is maybe a bit harsh, as he's not done much wrong, but he's not had the impact as a Scotland player we were all hoping for. The Lions tour undoubtably has knocked his confidence (as it has done to all of the Scottish tourists - Ryan Grant being one of the worst IMO).

He has always done will in terms of his all round attributes - high balls, skills, defense etc. but where he has been disappointing so far is his abilities as a game changer and a finisher (as demonstrated against Australia).

He has definitely struggled with the transition to NH pitches and rugby, but he is still young and still relatively inexperienced. Given his very good skill set and pace he is still our number 1 right winger, and I hope this 6N he can rediscover his mojo.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:That was the Australia game.

To me it is a lack of confidence – the Maitland that played for Canterbury Crusaders would have scored that try, or at least had the confidence to pin his ears back and go for it.

I hope he’s not being over coached or given conflicting instructions – we need him scoring a shed load of tries, that should be his focus!

Think that could be a Lions hang over - that tour really damaged the Scots players -

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Post by cakeordeath Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:11 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Woeful is maybe a bit harsh, as he's not done much wrong, but he's not had the impact as a Scotland player we were all hoping for. The Lions tour undoubtably has knocked his confidence (as it has done to all of the Scottish tourists - Ryan Grant being one of the worst IMO).

He has always done will in terms of his all round attributes - high balls, skills, defense etc. but where he has been disappointing so far is his abilities as a game changer and a finisher (as demonstrated against Australia).

He has definitely struggled with the transition to NH pitches and rugby, but he is still young and still relatively inexperienced.  Given his very good skill set and pace he is still our number 1 right winger, and I hope this 6N he can rediscover his mojo.

Woeful is a bit harsh. Hopefully a good 6N will help him

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:18 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Cambo wrote:Mr FES! Well said that man! How refreshing to hear proper considered argument and discussion from a poster with real rugby knowledge, rather than the [cough] anti Edinburgh rhetoric spouted by [ahem] like 21st and his little mate Jimbopip. Hats off to you sir!
Cambo - I have removed some of the fruitier language from your post.
No problem with the sentiment, but can we keep this as antagonism/personal insult-free as possible?

Seeing GC with red pen splashed all over other peoples posts is somewhat startling. Coo with an AK47 springs to mind  Erm Wink 
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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:20 pm

Let's all blame the Lions. Much simpler that way. That way we can take away responsibility from the individuals involved and their club/international coaches.

The Lions had some cheek picking our players. How dare they. Those that were picked had their confidence destroyed, and those that were not picked had their confidence destroyed (presumably).

I personally think it's a pathetic excuse for not playing well more than 6 months later. I don't recall similar whinging from previous Scottish Lions.

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Post by cakeordeath Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:26 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Let's all blame the Lions. Much simpler that way. That way we can take away responsibility from the individuals involved and their club/international coaches.

The Lions had some cheek picking our players. How dare they. Those that were picked had their confidence destroyed, and those that were not picked had their confidence destroyed (presumably).

I personally think it's a pathetic excuse for not playing well more than 6 months later. I don't recall similar whinging from previous Scottish Lions.

I don't think anyone is saying the lions tour is solely to blame. I think that in combination with the poor form Glasgow have this year hasn't helped. Of course I can't speak for the Edinburgh tourists...oh wait.... Rolling Eyes 

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Post by R!skysports Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:35 pm

Strange how they went over full of confidence, found out that they had no chance to make the real team, played out of position or ignored, then came back down and lacking confidence

Not all to blame, but a very clear cause and effect at the time, and it does take a while to build up confidence - so I am happy to still point to the Lions tour as a damaging affect on some of our players

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:35 pm

Well I don't blame the Lions one iota.

Ryan Grant wasn't initially selected but then when he was called up, could hardly complain to see Corbisiero preferred. Not sure how he's supposed to have been "damaged" by that.

Maitland was picked initially and played plenty on the tour. He missed a key tackle in a warm-up match and ultimately Gatland went with Bowe and Cuthbert, both very good players. Again, I don't see how he could be "damaged".

Hogg was selected as one of the youngest Lions of all time, primarily as a utility option. He had a duff first game but had some decent moments on the tour. Although picked out of position and given the kicking duties, some Scottish fans "wrongly of course" called for him to be moved to 10 for Scotland......again, where's the long term "damage"?

Cake is right - Glasgow have been sluggish this season, which in my opinion has contributed far more to Hogg and Maitland's decline. Hogg was injured and missed the AIs (a few games back and he's playing well again), and Maitland was selected out of position at 15 with a midfield in front of him incapable of creating any space for the back three.

Lions has nothing to do with it. All three should take a lot of confidence from their initial selection. Plenty very good players didn't get a sniff.

I haven't included Richie Gray, because the "damage" doesn't seem to extend to him for some reason. It doesn't seem to have affected his form much, which was fairly indifferent running up to the tour as well. He seems to be ticking along nicely at Castres now, and by all accounts has focused more on the ruck and lineout aspects of his game.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:39 pm

Riskysports wrote:Strange how they went over full of confidence, found out that they had no chance to make the real team, played out of position or ignored, then came back down and lacking confidence

Not all to blame, but a very clear cause and effect at the time, and it does take a while to build up confidence - so I am happy to still point to the Lions tour as a damaging affect on some of our players

I think you're really only talking about Stuart Hogg.

Of all the Scots he's the one with the biggest axe to grind, purely because of the limited time he had at 15 to stake a claim. Obviously having the best goal kicker and ultimately player of the series in front of you might have something to do with Hogg not being given a proper shot at 15, but he really didn't help his cause in that first game.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:41 pm

Fair enough FES - you see it one way I see it another - you could tell that the management had their favorites and regardless of ability or form - they were going to go with them -

Grant as an example - came of the plane, played in a make shift team, then was not given any chance to prove himeself and was even left on the bench when when Vinaoplo was folding like an accordion - tell me that would not dent your confidence??


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Post by RDW Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:44 pm

TBH I think Ryan Grant was messed around the most.  You can understand him not being picked to start with, but he was overlooked as first replacement for Corbs (in hindsight a good call) and once he was eventually called up he was thrown straight onto the pitch not having long landed in the country, with a makeshift team that were beaten.

The worst thing for him though was the fact that during the second test he sat on that bench for the entire 80 minutes seeing Vanipola get his arse handed to him on a plate and clearly completely knackered after 60 minutes, got Gatland had so little confidence in Grant's abilities that he still didn't put him on the pitch.  He was then dropped from the squad completely.  That has got to effec this confidence.

FES has brought up a good discussion point - it is an easy excuse to blame the Lions - but I do think it has had a part to play in their poor form.  Remember, we don't know what really went on behind closed doors.

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Post by BigGee Mon 27 Jan 2014, 1:56 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:TBH I think Ryan Grant was messed around the most.  You can understand him not being picked to start with, but he was overlooked as first replacement for Corbs (in hindsight a good call) and once he was eventually called up he was thrown straight onto the pitch not having long landed in the country, with a makeshift team that were beaten.

The worst thing for him though was the fact that during the second test he sat on that bench for the entire 80 minutes seeing Vanipola get his arse handed to him on a plate and clearly completely knackered after 60 minutes, got Gatland had so little confidence in Grant's abilities that he still didn't put him on the pitch.  He was then dropped from the squad completely.  That has got to effec this confidence.

FES has brought up a good discussion point - it is an easy excuse to blame the Lions - but I do think it has had a part to play in their poor form.  Remember, we don't know what really went on behind closed doors.

I tend to agree with that. It baffled us why he did not come on during that game and it looks like it baffled him as well. He does not seem to have been quite the same player ever since. Hopefully we will get to see his true abilities come back to the fore in the 6 nations. I am still sure he will start but will be under pressure from Dickinson who is playing well.

I have to say as well that Ryan Wilson had a fantastic game against Toulon and was my pick of the Glasgow forwards. He can play in a heads up fashion, seeing what is around him, that Denton still cannot. For me the start would be between him and Beattie. Denton may well be best used off the bench.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:27 pm

I'll contribute my tuppence worth to the Grant debate, I think that Gatland pretty much had his Test side in his mind before he left Cardiff never mind Britain. If Grant had replaced Vanipola and played to his abilities then it could have been embarrassing for Gatland. He had enough to cope with, what with BOD daring to look like a decent shout for the 13 jersey, without extra grief.

Secondly, I've got a hunch it'll be Beattie, Wilson, Brown unless Rennie looks really good in training then probably Brown Beattie, Rennie.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:30 pm

I can readily agree that it was a poor decision not to bring on Grant for the decimated Vunipola, and he may well feel a burning sense of injustice, but I just don't get the view that his confidence and subsequently his form has been so greatly affected by one poor selection decision. I can imagined Grant being hacked off about it, but has that really ruined his form and confidence for over 6 months??

Who are these wallflowers masquerading as rugby players??

I blame Glasgow.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

Barclay should be starting for Scotland. He's been excellent for the Scarlets.
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:33 pm

Just a thought, but is Grant struggling a little to adapt to the new scrum laws?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:37 pm

jimbopip wrote:I'll contribute my tuppence worth to the Grant debate, I think that Gatland pretty much had his Test side in his mind before he left Cardiff never mind Britain. If Grant had replaced Vanipola and played to his abilities then it could have been embarrassing for Gatland. He had enough to cope with, what with BOD daring to look like a decent shout for the 13 jersey, without extra grief.

Secondly, I've got a hunch it'll be Beattie, Wilson, Brown unless Rennie looks really good in training then probably Brown Beattie, Rennie.

More embarrasing than losing a Test that he should have won, and missing out on a Test series?? I think that's a daft idea.

If you watch the Lions DVD closely you'll see that Graham Rowntree, the Lions forwards coach, doesn't rate Ryan Grant. You can see it in the pre-tour selection. I suspect that had more of a factor to be honest.

As for the "Gatland had his Test side fixed before leaving Cardiff" line - hard to hold that view when both of the first choice looseheads, Healy and Jenkins, were out injured.

As for Scotland, I think the backrow will be Beattie, Brown and Denton, with Strokosch on the bench.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:40 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Just a thought, but is Grant struggling a little to adapt to the new scrum laws?  

I did think about that. You'd think that wouldn't be the case, as Grant was always more a technical scrummager than a monster, but I guess you never quite know how changes will affect different players. It seems to have done wonders for Ali Dickinson, as it was the hit that he seemed to struggle with. Now he seems to be able to keep things steady long enough for Ford to fart the ball to the back of the scrum.

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