Squad averages

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/six-nations-2014-stats-how-6524108


Its an interesting look at the teams! Wales are the heaviest and tallest.


The Celts have the 3 heaviest squads. I thought England would. France are the smallest and lightest.

It seems to be the backs who are largely responsible for the difference, with Wales having the likes of Roberts, North, Cuthbert, Phillips, etc 'dwarfing' the English and French backs.  I note that the Welsh forwards are only fourth biggest.

Another intersting set of statistics from the article is the fact that England's average caps per player is only 13.51, whereas for Wales it is 34.13.  That seems to me a more meaningful set of stats.  I know Lancaster bangs on about going into the world cup with 600+ caps in the starting team.  With only 20 games to go to the world cup that means England are going to end up well short of that total, unless we can get the likes of Wilkinson and Dallaglio to come out of self imposed retirement.

I know there is the saying that there are lies, damn lies and statistics, but I think it shows a clear plan by Warren Gatland to pick a big backline and be conservative in player selection.  I supose we will see if the gamble works when we see how Adam Jones, Mike Phillips, etc go in the 2015 world cup. England seem to be going down the route of picking more youngs players like Nowell, Watson, etc and hoping that some of them turn out to be world class.

Those were days players my size:

In rugby terms I can now claim to have something in common with
Gerald Davies, JJ, Phil Bennett and Gareth Edwards

Never thought I would be able to say that and keep a straight face  

England have the heaviest pack. No surprise really when you have the two Vunipolas in the squad.

nlpnlp it's definitely Wales' backs that make the difference.

The thing about players like Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins is that they will be 1 year older and not necessarily be better than they are now.

Whereas their potential English frontrow rivals should only get better. Dan Cole is 26, Mako and Marler are both 23. Hartley is 27.

England have a really youthful pack which hasn't quite hit it's prime but next year it should be in even better condition.

Wales have a youthful backline but their frontrow in particular will need replacing at some point.

I'm guessing Mike 'fatty' Ross and Devin '8 foot tall' Toner are pushing up the average for Ireland?

Our side is pretty small compared to the others, particularly the backs.

We have some very able replacements for the front row   

Like who munkian?

France rarely has a pack over 860kg... perhaps 50kg lighter then most top class packs yet they are one of the best scrummaging outfits out there. Although surprisingly they have one of the least mobile packs in the game.

I don't think you can read too much into height and weight anyhow.

Who is the better player Dan Carter all 5'10 or Owen Farrell at 6'2? At the very top it does matter but it doesn't define class.

Adam Jones has been 120kg+ since he was 12 in all probability.... yet he only has been good in the last 5 years or so prior to that he was nothing bar an average test player... yet he worked hard on his fitness, very hard in fact, gained more bulk, dropped a lot of fat and his all round game improved dramatically.

Still a similar weight but a totally different player.

My weight, which has not changed from the time I was 20, is exactly 12st 6lbs. No wonder I was so damn good.

beshocked wrote:Like who munkian?

Samson Lee, Ken Owens, Rhodri Jones, theres a bright young player at 2 for the Blues whose name I forget, also Sam Parry at the Dragons, Paul James is only 30

doctor_grey wrote:My weight, which has not changed from the time I was 20, is exactly 12st 6lbs.  No wonder I was so damn good.  

Finally Doc you've let it slip, you're Shane Williams. How's Japan treating you?

munkian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Like who munkian?

Samson Lee, Ken Owens, Rhodri Jones, theres a bright young player at 2 for the Blues whose name I forget, also Sam Parry at the Dragons, Paul James is only 30

Would you feel comfortable if they had to start in the 6 nations? I mean the youngsters - Paul James does not count.

I reckon so, surprised Lee isn't on the bench to be honest

munkian wrote:I reckon so, surprised Lee isn't on the bench to be honest

We have Dacey as well at the Blues.

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:I reckon so, surprised Lee isn't on the bench to be honest

We have Dacey as well at the Blues.

Prop or hooker ?

Hooker, he scored against the Dragons on Boxing Day.

fa0019 wrote:
Adam Jones has been 120kg+ since he was 12 in all probability.... yet he only has been good in the last 5 years or so prior to that he was nothing bar an average test player... yet he worked hard on his fitness, very hard in fact, gained more bulk, dropped a lot of fat and his all round game improved dramatically.

Still a similar weight but a totally different player.

I think Jones is really struggling under the new scrum laws.

Mickado wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
Adam Jones has been 120kg+ since he was 12 in all probability.... yet he only has been good in the last 5 years or so prior to that he was nothing bar an average test player... yet he worked hard on his fitness, very hard in fact, gained more bulk, dropped a lot of fat and his all round game improved dramatically.

Still a similar weight but a totally different player.

I think Jones is really struggling under the new scrum laws.

Samson Lee is the best Welsh scrummager in the rabo this season, it just baffles me why Gatland doesnot see this.

nlpnlp wrote:It seems to be the backs who are largely responsible for the difference, with Wales having the likes of Roberts, North, Cuthbert, Phillips, etc 'dwarfing' the English and French backs.  I note that the Welsh forwards are only fourth biggest.

Another intersting set of statistics from the article is the fact that England's average caps per player is only 13.51, whereas for Wales it is 34.13.  That seems to me a more meaningful set of stats.  I know Lancaster bangs on about going into the world cup with 600+ caps in the starting team.  With only 20 games to go to the world cup that means England are going to end up well short of that total, unless we can get the likes of Wilkinson and Dallaglio to come out of self imposed retirement.

I know there is the saying that there are lies, damn lies and statistics, but I think it shows a clear plan by Warren Gatland to pick a big backline and be conservative in player selection.  I supose we will see if the gamble works when we see how Adam Jones, Mike Phillips, etc go in the 2015 world cup.  England seem to be going down the route of picking more youngs players like Nowell, Watson, etc and hoping that some of them turn out to be world class.

I'm not sure it's safe to say England and dwarf in the same sentence yet.

LordDowlais wrote:Hooker, he scored against the Dragons on Boxing Day.

Yup, did mention him   

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Hooker, he scored against the Dragons on Boxing Day.

Yup, did mention him   

Yeah, I know, I was just following up on your dicription of him by giving his name.  

Got ya

beshocked wrote:

munkian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Like who munkian?

Samson Lee, Ken Owens, Rhodri Jones, theres a bright young player at 2 for the Blues whose name I forget, also Sam Parry at the Dragons, Paul James is only 30

Would you feel comfortable if they had to start in the 6 nations? I mean the youngsters - Paul James does not count.

Personally, admittedly I have one-eye, I would feel happier with Samson Lee starting for Wales than Adam Jones. Samson have proven himself as a key component in a destructive regional pack this season, and Adam Jones has a real issue with having to prop, since scrimmaging has been reintroduced.

Also we have some young beef in the pack in Jack Ball, who is a real monster of a man (that beard make him look even bigger!) and only 22, I would be happy with him being involved heavily in the 6Ns too.

I thought these two would've been blooded against Italy myself. Maybe its Samson's temperament that worries Gatalnd ? i.e - cards

Munk, Samson has had two cards in two seasons, one for the pack being poor (just unfortunate) and one for reckless boot on Care (which was borderline). Compared to people like Alun Wyn and definitely Ian Evans he is a saint!

Fairy muff, was just trying to think of why he wouldn't be included

munkian wrote:Fairy muff, was just trying to think of why he wouldn't be included

I have wondered that myself, even to the point where I wondered if his family background was going against him, and then I decided that Gatland has got his own way of deciding things that I, and most people, will never fully understand, and it is not anything personal against players just Gatland's thought process.

Just done some quick calcs comparing the Wales squad used in the comparison against the England backs likely to be playing Saturday, about 8 stone difference, 6.5 stone of which is on the wings. Centre wise, Burrell and 36 are only a stone or so lighter. I always thought Phillips was heavier, he certainly plays like a ponderous flanker sometimes. any Italian roots there?

The forwards more than make up for this.

England's forwards will make up for Wales big backs ? I'm not sure what you mean, our forwards are hardly small

True Munkian, but neither are our backs.

Our forwards are bigger than yours, your backs are bigger than ours.

Big backs are useless with out good ball, big forwards are useless if your half backs keep feeding big wingers juicy ball to run back at us.

Time will tell which one will make the difference

Our your forwards THAT bigger than ours though ? We pretty much bullied you last match

I'm not starting a p*ssing contest but England haven't bullied Wales upfront in a long time

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Gatland has got his own way of deciding things that I, and most people, will never fully understand, and it is not anything personal against players just Gatland's thought process.

Steady on there SS, that's far far too radical sensible thinking for the international section at this time of year (or any time of year for that matter). Next people will be up in arms about Rory Best not being picked for the initial Lions squad because anybody who knows absolutely anything about rugby would have him in their first test 15.........

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:Fairy muff, was just trying to think of why he wouldn't be included

I have wondered that myself, even to the point where I wondered if his family background was going against him, and then I decided that Gatland has got his own way of deciding things that I, and most people, will never fully understand, and it is not anything personal against players just Gatland's thought process.

May be its because he is an experienced rugby player and coach (both at very high levels) while most of us are not? Just a thought.

munkian wrote:Our your forwards THAT bigger than ours though ? We pretty much bullied you last match

I'm not starting a p*ssing contest but England haven't bullied Wales upfront in a long time

I think you will find that this years pack is a lot better than last year, we have a proper 8 for instance, Lawes adds a l more bite than Parling and talking of bites, Hartley is a much stronger scrummager than Youngs. Hartley and Lawes are in the form of their lives and will tackle and carry all day.

The English pack has bossed the breakdown against Australia, Argentina and NZ in the AIs. individually they do not get rated very in rankings of others, but as a unit they are, as have proved a match for anyone.

I don't expect the English pack to bully your boys, but I do expect them have a edge. Our bench, Thomas aside, looks stronger in terms of impact in the forwards, the likes of Morgan, Attwood, Youngs and Mako are all great impact payers who can changes games.

I think this thread is a little harsh on many of the 6N squads. Aside from the fact that adjectives come before nouns and don't agree in number, I think some of the squads are well above average.