Leeds to become Yorkshire Carnegie from next season

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26135894

Leeds Carnegie have announced their intention to change the club's name to Yorkshire Carnegie from next season.
Leeds rugby chief executive Gary Hetherington said: "The business model for professional rugby union has changed dramatically over the last decade and now we must forge a new way to give Yorkshire the chance to succeed.
"Rather than relying on the generosity of a handful of benefactors we now want to create a group to control the Yorkshire franchise and allow the club to challenge the best in England and Europe."

To me it appears that the smaller English clubs are creating semi-regional identities to widen their appeal and to bring themselves up to a level with the bigger teams, Leeds Carnegie to Yorkshire Carnegie, Penzance & Newlyn Pirates to Cornish Pirates and earlier Gosforth FC to Newcastle Falcons (each changed for various reasons), but the Leeds move appears to be to widen their appear to the whole of Yorkshire.

Is this a good idea or will they disenfranchise existing fans? A comparison with the Welsh regions is unavoidable, Newport Gwent Dragons keep getting praise/ire for keeping the Newport, would this have the same effect for Yorkshire Carnegie?

I think you'll expect that Newcastle are being branded as ''The Falcons'' now.

I posted a topic a few years ago about whether the 3 big northern clubs should more officially regionalise. Not much was said but largely negative. Sale have talked about being the NW team.

Here's my old topic

https://www.606v2.com/t29403-regional-rugby-right-for-the-north-of-england

Just re-reading that topic but it was saying that 3 Leeds games were being moved away from Leeds, so it was beginning then. I wonder what Rotterham and Doncaster think about this.

The falcons are already very regionalised...with regards our academy. We draw from all over such as cumbria to the borders.

At the same time we keep our base and identity as Newcastle...and i wouldnt want that to change.

Unless Leeds are now going to start playing games all over Yorkshire i dont see the point in this at all.

It lacks ambition. Rotherham claimed a whole planet as its region, not just a county - Earth Titans.

I think the name Carnegie itself is poor.


Certainly when you compare it to the likes of Leicester with their Tigers, Northampton with their Saints, Sale with their Sharks, Newcastle with their Falcons, Exeter with their Chiefs.

I think Leeds are suffering with their lack of identity.

As for trying to represent Yorkshire. It doesn't work. As hammeofthunor and Dubbelyew l overate mention, there are more Yorkshire rugby union clubs than just Leeds.

I believe in names which make sense. For the record I don't think the names "London" Irish and "London" Wasps work.

Says the Saracens fan? Serious, where does that name come from? Carnegie is due to the association with Carnegie College.

Yorkshire is a big place. Similar population as Scotland, much bigger than Wales. It can handle 3 pro clubs.

This team can 'represent' North, West and East Yorkshire and leave South Yorkshire for Donny and Rotherham. They claim to have spoken to local clubs and they're on board. Really it's just making the current set-up official. Long have Leeds brought in the Hull based players like Biggs.

If it's thought through properly it's a good idea. And the fact the Leeds bosses have worked on their structure to get them to break even suggests they're thinking correctly. If they play any games in Hull I'll definitely go.

Leeds have the RFU regional academy affiliated, whose catchment area (I'm guessing) is the whole of Yorkshire. So, they're already the focus for the promising youth of All Yorkshire and, presumably, DR'ing or loaning academy players to junior clubs at National level around the county.

A touch presumptuous. Yorkshire is a big county, sounds like a desperate plan to try and get some extra cash in. Leeds have been struggling for some time to generate a fan base big enough to support a Premiership team. The joining forces with the Leeds League outfit didn't work and this is the next step.

Interestingly Leeds are on the same points as Rotherham in the Championship. Will they appreciate being labelled a second fiddle feeder club to Yorkshire Carnegie. That game is going to have some extra spice if they meet in the playoffs.

Hammerofthunor

Saracens founded in 1876. Rivals were the Crusaders who almagamated two years later.

Explanation on wikipedia:

The club's name is said to come from the "endurance, enthusiasm and perceived invincibility of Saladin's desert warriors of the 12th century". The fact that their local rivals were called the Crusaders may also have been a factor.[3]

There's far more of an identity with the likes of the fez and the camel etc.

Carnegie college? What's special about it? It's an awful name for a club.

I know Yorkshire is a big place. Perhaps the bigger problem is the Carnegie. It means nothing and as the main Carnegie College is in Scotland it is counterproductive if they are trying to become a Yorkshire brand.

What is the symbol of Carnegie? You can sneer at the Saracens name if you want but there's a lot you can do plus it has the prestige of being over 100 years old.

In terms of branding and marketing what the hell do you do with Carnegie?

There's a lot of competition in Yorkshire from rugby league and football. I think with this weak name - Leeds Carnegie or whatever they are going to call themselves will struggle.

Oh I wasn't sneering at the Saracens name. Genuinely interested in where I came from as I knew it was the old name, not a new 'image' like the Sale 'Sharks'.

I know the story behind Harlequins is they were named after a place beginning with 'H' (which escapes at the moment) and as the club started to represent more than just that area they decided to change the name but maintain HFC. Flicked through dictionary and came up with Harlequins (or something like that).

I didn't know about the Crusaders but I imagine back when these clubs were forming there were a lot of clubs from the same area and they needed more to their name to differentiate them (some of the main London clubs are the exiles, Saracens, Wasps and Harlequins).

Regarding Carnegie, I don't think it matter that much what they're called really. If they called themselves anything 'Yorkshire Vikings' so something like that but it's largely irrelevant. There's the stuff going on with Hull City - Hull Tigers at the moment and I can't see it making much difference to be honest.

Hammerofthunor I look at it from a marketing perspective. With Carnegie there's not much you can do.Yorkshire Vikings would be better actually.

It's about a sense of identity too.

I would say some clubs are more comfortable with their image than others.

There are pros and cons to being directly linked with an area by name. Most clubs are linked to an area but two who aren't - Quins and Saracens aren't doing too badly.

The Hull City-Hull Tigers might not matter now but it could be in a few years if people embrace it as a name and a mentality. Plus if the Hull marketing machine makes it work then it could.

Fans have to get behind a name and mindset.

You have to make a name your own but I personally don't see Carnegie as a desirable one.

Finding an identity whether it be a style of play or mindset is so important.

I would say the likes of Saints,Leicester,Bath,Quins,Sarries,Gloucester have strong identities now. Sarries and Exeter have joined that list in the last 5 years though you could argue that Sarries identity was as the nomads.

London Wasps and London Irish are going through a phase of identity crisis. Both claim to be London but neither are in London, both are going through a rebuilding phase, neither have a home they can call their own though the financial help for both might seem them carve out their own niche.

Sale are similar - it's still debatable who it is in the North West they represent, especially with their deal with Salford seemingly being terminated it does put question marks on them.

Leeds have a lot of on their plate with the battle in the championship let alone re-branding. It's interesting to see that the Championship seems to be getting more competitive every year.

But they're already Hull Tigers. It's plastered all over the place. There's a Tiger's Den pub thing and a Tigers shop, etc. Why would having it as part of the actual name make a difference? It would be like Mancester United changing their name to Mancester Red Devils. The name isn't the thing that makes them marketable. It's the team.

Same with Leeds (or Yorkshire?). I also don't think it's great and I would have gone for a full change. But I don't think it's a big deal. Also Carnegie College owned 51% of the club at one point. That's why the name changed originally. Not sure if they still do or how much.

Basically what I'm saying is I think it's better for Leeds to get things right in terms of off field structure, finances, etc, with the name being a minor minor issue, if at all. Just my (zero marketing experienced) opinion.

HammerofThunor wrote:But they're already Hull Tigers. It's plastered all over the place. There's a Tiger's Den pub thing and a Tigers shop, etc. Why would having it as part of the actual name make a difference? It would be like Mancester United changing their name to Mancester Red Devils. The name isn't the thing that makes them marketable. It's the team.  

Same with Leeds (or Yorkshire?).  I also don't think it's great and I would have gone for a full change. But I don't think it's a big deal.  Also Carnegie College owned 51% of the club at one point. That's why the name changed originally. Not sure if they still do or how much.

Basically what I'm saying is I think it's better for Leeds to get things right in terms of off field structure, finances, etc, with the name being a minor minor issue, if at all. Just my (zero marketing experienced) opinion.

They don't own it anymore, but you are right this is where Carnegie comes from as it was affiliated to Leeds Met Uni's sport's set up. I'd imagine they have retained the Carnegie label to still identify with the original Leeds routes. It is quite an iconic name for the area, so I'd imagine there is some value in retaining the name; some of the names used solely for branding purposes are rather pathetic, so at least this has a certain provenance about it.

The bigger issue is having the gall to rename it Yorkshire, yet only be based from Leeds and completely ignoring the fact that the county is represented by Rotherham and Doncaster at the same level and it diminishes the historical impact of the likes of Otley. Personally I think it's a pretty crass move.

[quote="HammerofThunor"]Oh I wasn't sneering at the Saracens name. Genuinely interested in where I came from as I knew it was the old name, not a new 'image' like the Sale 'Sharks'.

I know the story behind Harlequins is they were named after a place beginning with 'H' (which escapes at the moment) and as the club started to represent more than just that area they decided to change the name but maintain HFC. Flicked through dictionary and came up with Harlequins (or something like that).

I didn't know about the Crusaders but I imagine back when these clubs were forming there were a lot of clubs from the same area and they needed more to their name to differentiate them (some of the main London clubs are the exiles, Saracens, Wasps and Harlequins).
quote]

Harlequins started life as Hampstead RFC so had HFC on their shirt, when they took more players from ouside Hampstead they needed a new name but starting with a "H" so Harlequins it was.

Wasps could have/should have been founder members of the RFU but legend has it that their representative went to the wrong pub on the fateful night and enjoyed the place so much he forgot to go and look for the meeting.

The exile teams names originate in the connection with the London Irish/Scottish regiments that were set up in the Victorian era recruiting from exiles and their descendants based in the London area and the social clubs based arond them.

As Carneigie (Leeds Poly/Leeds Met university depeding on your age)  throw lots of money at the rugby club I suppose they want a name check - the original Carnegie College in Leeds was primarily a trainnig college for PE teachers and the Uni have ambitions towards making it a Loughborough of the North.

TBH Leeds is a RL and football city mostly so anything that will bring people into the ground or gets the club playing away from Headingley is a good thing in terms of spreading the game - the northern part of Yorkshire outside the West Yorkshire conurbation (Leeds, Bratfud, HX, Donny, etc.) is much more RU country and they could do well there in places like Harrogate, Ripon and Richmond as well as York.

What exactly is a Carnegie ? Is it some kind of animal only found in Yorkshire ?   I have only just worked out what a waratah and a brumbie are. I think.

And there are no ospreys in wales where the Ospreys are based. Neither in fact will you find any sharks in the landlocked canals of manchester. Go figure.

http://www.carnegieuktrust.org.uk/who-we-are/history

Ah ! another Northern industrial philanthropist !

Bluedragon wrote:What exactly is a Carnegie ? Is it some kind of animal only found in Yorkshire ?   I have only just worked out what a waratah and a brumbie are. I think.

And there are no ospreys in wales where the Ospreys are based. Neither in fact will you find any sharks in the landlocked canals of manchester. Go figure.

Yeah, I was surprised to find out a Waratah is a stinking shrub.  The symbol of New South Wales is a shrub.  And, therefore, the team name.  For some reason I kind of knew a Brumby was a horse.  Don't know why.  

However, to take your comment a bit further (off the edge, actually), there are no Tigers in the wilds of Leicester (though I met a few women who would fancy themselves as cougars). Certainly no true American Indian Chiefs in Devon (no American Indian had accents like that). And no true Saracens in ..well......Saracen-land UK.  Only true to life team nickname is Saints.....

I've seen you guys play. They're no Saints. I've seen the crowds that go too!

Cardiff Blues were originally toying with the name Cardiff Buccaneers. I kind of liked it, especially as Aucklnad already had a Blues team.

Whats a Blue Bull by the way ? Surely no bulls are blue coloured ?

Bluedragon wrote:Whats a Blue Bull by the way ? Surely no bulls are blue coloured ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilgai

These are from India and are blue(ish).

                   

I want the Leicester Tigers to change their name to the Leicestershire Tigers, Gloucester Rugby to Gloucestershire Rugby, Northampton Saints to Northamptonshire Saints, etc.

How about the Cardiff Blues changing to the Glamorgan Blues?   

Yorkshire Carnegie does sound awful!

Bluedragon wrote:Cardiff Blues were originally toying with the name Cardiff Buccaneers. I kind of liked it, especially as Aucklnad already had a Blues team.

Whats a Blue Bull by the way ? Surely no bulls are blue coloured ?

Presumably it sounded better than the Northern Transvaal Red daisies? Which is (or was) still the symbol on their Currie cup shirt...

When are the Cardiff blues going to change their kit to Red?

Haven't you seen their change kit of pink ?

Its a bit confusing when they play a team in blue and the ref says ' Blue ball '

The reason they are currently called Leeds Carnegie is that as part of the University selling their 51% share of the RU club back to Leeds rugby (after they realised it was a mistake) they had to commit to a £1M a year sponsorship. This sponsorship still has 4 years to run.

Basically this whole rebranding exercise is a last throw of the dice to try to get enough funding to survive in the AP if they win promotion. Leeds Rugby (the Rhino's) and Paul Caddick have been paid back any money owed from the P share windfall.

So the Club is Debt fee but run on the Carnegie sponsorship and the RFU handout, on a sustainable basis. They don't make much on matchday income on small crowds with high stadium costs. That's fine for the Championship whilst the Carnegie deal lasts but wouldn't cut it the AP, as they only would only get a smaller share having sold their P shares.

For more opinion and background I'd have a look here:
http://www.rolling-maul.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11772&title=yorkshire-carnegie-i-salute-you