Delme Parfitt's list of 'Wales outside half contenders'

Delme Parfitt included six players on his list of 'Wales outside half contenders' today: Owen Williams, Rhys Preistland, Dan Biggar, James Hook, Matthew Morgan and Rhys Patchell. This is my list of 'Wales outside half contenders': Owen Williams, Rhys Preistland, Dan Biggar, James Hook, Matthew Morgan, Rhys Patchell, Gavin Henson, Jason Tovey, Sam Davies, Jamie Murphy, Steffan Jones, Steven Shingler, Josh Lewis, Jordan Williams, Aled Thomas, Gareth Davies, Simon Humberstone, Dai Flanagan, Nicky Robinson, Ceri Sweeney, Nick Macleod and others. What is your list of 'Wales outside half contenders'?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/delme-parfitt-how-much-longer-6899311

Are you sure that your list is a list of Wales outside half contenders? Or a list of Welsh players that have played at outside half for a club/region at some point in the last 10 years?

I'd change your title 'personal list of Wales outside half contenders' to 'A muppet's list of Wales outside half contenders' because only a muppet or somebody that doesn't watch rugby would have all of those names on their list. Parfitt is just stating the obvious I think, 2 or 3 of his 6 will tour SA.

Owen Williams should tour and should be given a run of games . sorry priestland but you have had your chance . biggar , Williams and patchell . hook prob too

Delme misses out entire Region in one of his ill informed 'articles' shocker

What is the point of your list exactly?

The only real contenders are: Priestland, Hook and Biggar at the moment, Patchell has been out for most of the season and the others are not good enough yet. Owen Williams is an outside shout because hes playing for the Tigers. Jason Tovey has never really been on the radar and probably never will.

He was called up to training squad before but got injured. Its more annoying that Rees is never on any of the SH options.

For me it would be this

Biggar
Priestland
Tovey
Hook
Patchell
Williams
Morgan

As Munkian said, Tovey (and Lewis Evans at 6) were both on radar a few seasons back but have figured at all after injury.

munkian wrote:He was called up to training squad before but got injured. Its more annoying that Rees is never on any of the SH options.

Don't be surprised when we get people like Gatland and Howley listing backrow and scrum half options and missing out Lewis Evans and Richie Rees.

Stuff Team Wales and the Western Fail.

I think Priestland has blown his chances, has never really recovered his form and confidence of a few seasons ago when he was breathtaking. Think we have to stick with Dan Biggar up to the world cup for his game management. After the World Cup, I think its a three way fight between Jordan Davies, Rhys Patchell and Owen Williams who will all be established first choices at their regions. Sam Davies could come into but not if he stays at the ospreys. Would like to see Jordan or Sam davies moving somewhere where they will get first team rugby.
Patchell looks the strongest future contender at the moment, particularly with his colossal goal kicking - we will see how he does as Blues first choice kicker next season.

Bluedragon wrote:I think Priestland has blown his chances, has never really recovered his form and confidence of a few seasons ago when he was breathtaking. Think we have to stick with Dan Biggar up to the world cup for his game management. After the World Cup, I think its a three way fight between Jordan Davies, Rhys Patchell and Owen Williams who will all be established first choices at their regions. Sam Davies could come into but not if he stays at the ospreys. Would like to see Jordan or Sam davies moving somewhere where they will get first team rugby.
Patchell looks the strongest future contender at the moment, particularly with his colossal goal kicking - we will see how he does as Blues first choice kicker next season.

You cant compare Priestlands performances behind a pack getting absolutely stuffed against Ireland and England with Biggars performance against Scotland where he was under no pressure whatsoever. Biggar is now the man in posession and will start because he is by far the better goal kicker. But Priestland is not far behind, unfortunately both really struggle when put under pressure.

I really liked Patchell but before he got injured wasn't he getting picked at centre, was it because of a dip in form? If fit he may very well go to SA as 3rd choice, if not Hook (who may go as an utility anyway) or Owen Williams will probably go.

Jordan Williams and Sam Davies are currently a long way behind and Matthew Morgan probably even further behind.

Delme is a tool, his sensationalist head line on "how much longer can gatland ignore Owen Williams" is so pathetic , you can hardly ignore a player who hasn't got a full season under his belt.

No, Patchell has always played 10 at the blues, he might have played 1 game at 12 because of injuries. I like his game management, goal kicking and he's a runner. Hope he continues to develop well.

My point is up to world cup its a 2 horse race. After that some of the younger players at 10 will be in with a chance. patchell currently looks the best of the group.

Seagultaf wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:I think Priestland has blown his chances, has never really recovered his form and confidence of a few seasons ago when he was breathtaking. Think we have to stick with Dan Biggar up to the world cup for his game management. After the World Cup, I think its a three way fight between Jordan Davies, Rhys Patchell and Owen Williams who will all be established first choices at their regions. Sam Davies could come into but not if he stays at the ospreys. Would like to see Jordan or Sam davies moving somewhere where they will get first team rugby.
Patchell looks the strongest future contender at the moment, particularly with his colossal goal kicking - we will see how he does as Blues first choice kicker next season.

You cant compare Priestlands performances behind a pack getting absolutely stuffed against Ireland and England with Biggars performance against Scotland where he was under no pressure whatsoever. Biggar is now the man in posession and will start because he is by far the better goal kicker. But Priestland is not far behind, unfortunately both really struggle when put under pressure.

I really liked Patchell but before he got injured wasn't he getting picked at centre, was it because of a dip in form? If fit he may very well go to SA as 3rd choice, if not Hook (who may go as an utility anyway) or Owen Williams will probably go.

Jordan Williams and Sam Davies are currently a long way behind and Matthew Morgan probably even further behind.

I could forgive Priestland for under performing in maybe 1 or 2 games, but he has been consistently poor in most Welsh games hes played in for the past 2 years, his aimless kicking has costed us matches against Australia as well. He cannot manage a game at this level, even behind a beaten pack there is no excuse to kick poorly all the time.

I agree Priestland has been poor but a lot of blame also needs to be pointed at the coaches for continuing to select him when he's obviously suffering with form and confidence.

There is another article in the Eastern Fail today about Owen Williams:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugbys-best-kept-secret-6926627

The un-named author takes a cheap dig at the Scarlets for releasing him at the end of last season. He obviously has not read the articles in his own paper, where it was stated that the Scarlets were very upset to lose him and did everything in their power to retain him.

And also yet another Henson for Wales article, apparently he played well for Bath seconds in the Amlin cup (swallows and summers) so he must now be recalled to the team.

Two very poor articles by an increasingly poor publication.

It was a pretty decent Bath side and he played very well - MOTM, would love to have him at the Dragons

thought owen williams was massive for leicester this weekend. clearly the biggest game of his career and he completely seized the moment. that, for me, is what wales currently lack. a 10 who really raises his hand and ups his game against the top opposition.

wales need to try something new at 9 and 10 before sept2015 and if they stick to biggar and priestland i would be nervous about them escaping the group stages.

can't see why him playing at Leics should prevent him being selected? it means he's getting more domestic competitive matches including being involved in the sharp end of european competition. for the same reason gatland likes roberts et al to play in france, and north at saints, i would have thought playing at Leics would increase owen williams chances.

anyway, after this weekends performance even stick-in-the-mud gatland wont be able to exclude him from the touring side. imo, obviously.

I thinks its more about him being able to attend training, remember what happened with Paul James ?

I have only seen the highlights of Leicester's game this weekend, but I am really please he played well. He looked a great prospect when he broke into the Scarlets team (when Priestland was injured) last season, but his form tailed off badly towards the end of the season. You have to wonder whether he may have been persuaded to stay if Shingler had not been brought back.

It will be interesting to see how he fairs if Leicester recruit a big name 10 to replace Flood.

Seagultaf wrote:I have only seen the highlights of Leicester's game this weekend, but I am really please he played well. He looked a great prospect when he broke into the Scarlets team (when Priestland was injured) last season, but his form tailed off badly towards the end of the season. You have to wonder whether he may have been persuaded to stay if Shingler had not been brought back.

It will be interesting to see how he fairs if Leicester recruit a big name 10 to replace Flood.

was just thinking the same thing re flood replacement. i havent seen a lot of owen williams this season, but on saturday's performance, i wouldnt bring a 10 in ahead of him. He is managing to keep Flood on thebench after all at the moment at Leics.

wales have such good forwards, such good backs, and such a weak 9/10 linkage in comparison to their quality in almost every other position. time to take a risk on Williams i would say.

I wouldn't even call it a risk though Biggar should be in front of him

He is playing exceptionally maturely at the moment which I think is the most pleasing thing. He could easily have crumbled in that situation at the weekend, especially after missing his first kick but he pulled us back into the game with that brilliant cross field kick for the try and his kicking following that miss was exemplary. On a side note, I hadn't realised how big a boot he has, he was kicking penalties from his own half and they weren't even landing on the pitch behind the goal.

Whether or not he is the best Welsh fly half is obviously up for debate but I think the weekend proved that he definitely won't be overawed if they put him in. Of course, being a selfish Leicester fan I hope they continue to ignore him so he can play for us the entire time.

munkian wrote:I wouldn't even call it a risk though Biggar should be in front of him

Both Biggar and Priestland really struggle when behind a beaten pack, the test for Owen Williams is what he will be like when he does not have the Leicester pack in front of him. His confidence must be sky high at the moment, he went to Leicester as 3rd choice but at the moment he is number 1 on merit.

Seagultaf wrote:

munkian wrote:I wouldn't even call it a risk though Biggar should be in front of him

Both Biggar and Priestland really struggle when behind a beaten pack, the test for Owen Williams is what he will be like when he does not have the Leicester pack in front of him. His confidence must be sky high at the moment, he went to Leicester as 3rd choice but at the moment he is number 1 on merit.

Priestland often struggles nowadays even when the Wales pack is coping adequately. His running lines are just senseless with ball in hand. It's one thing to point out that a great many 10's have a torrid time when the front row isn't having things go their way but Priestland started the France game and came off the bench against Scotland - two occasions where the front row wasn't on the back foot - and looked almost as much of a liability as when they're struggling!

Seagultaf wrote:

munkian wrote:I wouldn't even call it a risk though Biggar should be in front of him

Both Biggar and Priestland really struggle when behind a beaten pack, the test for Owen Williams is what he will be like when he does not have the Leicester pack in front of him. His confidence must be sky high at the moment, he went to Leicester as 3rd choice but at the moment he is number 1 on merit.

I wouldn't go that far. He's no 1 as Flood is leaving and their 2nd choice is injured, no ?

Re Jordan Williams, the very same who plays wing for Scarlets and fullback for Wales u20s? Why is his name cropping up? Surely his attacking prowess would see him far more suited to a back 3 position instead of the organising role??

munkian wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

munkian wrote:I wouldn't even call it a risk though Biggar should be in front of him

Both Biggar and Priestland really struggle when behind a beaten pack, the test for Owen Williams is what he will be like when he does not have the Leicester pack in front of him. His confidence must be sky high at the moment, he went to Leicester as 3rd choice but at the moment he is number 1 on merit.

I wouldn't go that far. He's no 1 as Flood is leaving and their 2nd choice is injured, no ?

He has supplanted Flood on a form basis - though yes the fact he is leaving will have played some part in making the decision easier for Cockers. The second choice at the start of the season was Ryan Lamb - who left mid-season to join Worcester as he had been consigned to bench duties in the LV cup.

Williams is playing well and controllling games in a very mature fashion, without quite showing the running skill we heard so much of from Scarlets fans. He has just the 11 starts this season so too early to say he is good enough to play for Wales. The interesting part comes at the start of next season when, so rumour suggests, Freddie Burns joins the club. If true Burns will not walk into the Leicester shirt, that is not the clubs way. It will require either an early season injury or something absolutely amazing for Burns (or anyone else) to take Williams shirt.

Cool, thanks

The half back pool for Wales is shallow at 9 and 10.

Only Biggar has shown anything like the experience and form to wear the shirt. Priestland has shown no recent ability at test level and Hook is not the future. Patchell and Williams show promise - Williams in particular is developing well given his game time with Leicester firsts.

You also have Tovey and Rees at the Dragons. Yes, there is a fourth region...

munkian wrote:You also have Tovey and Rees at the Dragons. Yes, there is a fourth region...

Munkian - I'm a season ticket holder at the "fourth region" but I still don't think Tovey or Rees are test standard. They only get a mention because we have such little half back talent.

Tovey has never had a chance behind a solid pack, Rees has been capped and played well.

Along with Gareth Davies Rees has been the form 9 in Wales this season and he's never really had a bad game for Wales but was never first choice.

There are or have been rumours that he had a falling out in the past which has affected his chances.

I would certainly put Tovey ahead of Patchell in the pecking order.

Priestland was abysmal against Zebre today. There were loud cheers when Steve Shingler came on.

I'm inclined to look at Biggar as a safe-ish pair of hands and bring Owen Williams into the 22. 18 months down the line we're going to need some decent halfbacks. Owen Williams looked the business last year at the Scarlets and it's no surprise he's doing well at Leicester. Also Gatland would not do too badly to look at some of the scrum halves we've got at the Scarlets.

Summer tour, AI's, 6N's, Warm-Ups then its the RWC ... not a lot of time to blood any new players. I'll be disappointed if Gatland takes the same old faces. Some of our greatest and best are heading the wrong way on the proverbial hill sadly and it's time to start thinking of the future.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Priestland was abysmal against Zebre today. There were loud cheers when Steve Shingler came on.

I'm inclined to look at Biggar as a safe-ish pair of hands and bring Owen Williams into the 22. 18 months down the line we're going to need some decent halfbacks. Owen Williams looked the business last year at the Scarlets and it's no surprise he's doing well at Leicester. Also Gatland would not do too badly to look at some of the scrum halves we've got at the Scarlets.

Summer tour, AI's, 6N's, Warm-Ups then its the RWC ... not a lot of time to blood any new players. I'll be disappointed if Gatland takes the same old faces. Some of our greatest and best are heading the wrong way on the proverbial hill sadly and it's time to start thinking of the future.

Agreed. Gats only blooded Priestland months before the last WC and the latter went on to excel at stand-off during the tournament. His form has plummeted since and I'd struggle to justifiably have him among the top 3 options in his position, never mind the top 2 (on form as I'm aware Patchell and Williams have little or no int'l experience between them).

Halfback is undoubtedly the area most in need of improvement over the next year and a half we have to prepare. Phillips might still have a role but not nearly as big a role as before; he's looked over the hill since the Lions. I'm starting to like the look of Rhodri Williams given his contribution at PYS and his promising cameo against Scotland. Rhys Webb looks good in flashes but not the most stable; he was badly disrupted against England.

My view - its 9 that is the issue. Playing Phillips robs the 10 of time and space in which to work. Even the best in the world would struggle with the slow ball from Phillips.

Biggar is a decent 10 and IMO the best in Wales. Why Rees is not playing 9 for wales I don't understand at all again IMO he is the best 9 in Wales.

When are we all going to accept the Preistland era is over time to move on

Scratch wrote:When are we all going to accept the Preistland era is over time to move on

Think most of us on here have but that means diddly squat until Gats and Co realise it to.

Priestland had an era ?

Blimey when I was a youngster era's lasted more than 5 minutes

Neil Jenkins had an era
Ronan O'Gara had an era

just wondered if we could end up with the commentator's nightmare of Owen williams ( leicester ) at 10 and Owen williams ( blues ) at 13 ?

Or even better : gareth davies ( scarlets ) at 9 and gareth davies ( blues ) at 10....

On a serious note, I think the battle for 9 after the world cup will be betwen the two current scarlets : Garth Davies and Rhodri Williams, maybe Rhys Webb or Tacklebag Knoyle if he ousts lloyd Williams at the Blues. My favourite is Gareth Davies. Like a fast and decisive Mike Phillips.

And at 10, its a battle I think between Biggar keeping his place - and the young lads - Owen Williams and Rhys Patchell, maybe Steve Jock Shingler , or Sam Davies or jordan Williams if they are playing at 10 for their regions by then.

Its encouraging to see so many up and coming promising half backs in ( or from ) Wales.

geoff998rugby wrote:Priestland had an era ?

Blimey when I was a youngster era's lasted more than 5 minutes

Neil Jenkins had an era
Ronan O'Gara had  an era

It has felt like an era, perhaps my spellcheck could have helped and put 'error' instead.

Bluedragon wrote:just wondered if we could end up with the commentator's nightmare of Owen williams ( leicester ) at 10 and Owen williams ( blues ) at 13 ?

Or even better : gareth davies ( scarlets ) at 9 and gareth davies ( blues ) at 10....

On a serious note, I think the battle for 9 after the world cup will be betwen the two current scarlets : Garth Davies and Rhodri Williams, maybe Rhys Webb or Tacklebag Knoyle if he ousts lloyd Williams at the Blues. My favourite is Gareth Davies. Like a fast and decisive Mike Phillips.

And at 10, its a battle I think between Biggar keeping his place - and the young lads - Owen Williams and Rhys Patchell, maybe Steve Jock Shingler , or Sam Davies or jordan Williams if they are playing at 10 for their regions by then.

Its encouraging to see so many up and coming promising half backs in ( or from ) Wales.

Its about time we had a team full of Davies and Williams' again. Not sure why you've gone for Knoyle and Lloyd over Rees though ?

Big fan of Richie Rees from his time with the Blues - but his age will now sadly count against him, especially after the world cup. He's 32 now so will be 33 at the world cup - and 37 at the next one.

Richie Rees is 30? But yeah not exactly young. Especially when you have Rhodri Williams and Gareth Davies who are far younger and are showing just as good form.

IronMike wrote:Richie Rees is 30? But yeah not exactly young. Especially when you have Rhodri Williams and Gareth Davies who are far younger and are showing just as good form.

Agreed but I'd have Rees over Phillips (whos older) and Brynmor Jnr every time

Phillips is older as is Peel (who some say should be involved) is same age so can't see the argument there. As for Ll Williams I would pick my gran ahead of him.

I think I must be one of the only people on these forums who doesn't rate Rees.

The Bachelor wrote:I think I must be one of the only people on these forums who doesn't rate Rees.

Not quite.

Good club cv, not that much of an international standard player imo. An impact sub at best, I've seen him pick up the pace nicely in the last 20-40 mins but don't recall being impressed with the few starts he has had.

Bluedragon wrote:just wondered if we could end up with the commentator's nightmare of Owen williams ( leicester ) at 10 and Owen williams ( blues ) at 13 ?

Or even better : gareth davies ( scarlets ) at 9 and gareth davies ( blues ) at 10....

On a serious note, I think the battle for 9 after the world cup will be betwen the two current scarlets : Garth Davies and Rhodri Williams, maybe Rhys Webb or Tacklebag Knoyle if he ousts lloyd Williams at the Blues. My favourite is Gareth Davies. Like a fast and decisive Mike Phillips.

And at 10, its a battle I think between Biggar keeping his place - and the young lads - Owen Williams and Rhys Patchell, maybe Steve Jock Shingler , or Sam Davies or jordan Williams if they are playing at 10 for their regions by then.

Its encouraging to see so many up and coming promising half backs in ( or from ) Wales.

What about Scarlets Gareth Davies at nine with the Blues Gareth Davies at ten and moving Tigers Owen Williams to inside centre with the Blues Owen Williams at outside centre...? The Shinglers at Fullback and Blindside as well and the commentary team might go on strike.