Lambs to the Slaughter – aka Leinster V Edinburgh match thread

[GLove39]

First topic message reminder :

Since RDW can’t bring himself to create another Edinburgh match thread, figured I’d give it a whirl...

Leinster    v   Edinburgh   
Saturday 10th May 2014, KO 18:30
The Slaughter House (RDS)

Butchers

1: Jack McGrath
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen
5: Mike McCarthy
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Jordi Murphy
8: Jamie Heaslip


9: Isaac Boss
10: Jimmy Gopperth
11: Dave Kearney
12: Gordon D'Arcy
13: Brian O'Driscoll
14: Fergus McFadden
15: Zane Kirchner

REPLACEMENTS:
16: Sean Cronin
17: Cian Healy
18: Martin Moore
19: Rhys Ruddock
20: Dominic Ryan
21: Luke McGrath
22: Ian Madigan
23: Rob Kearney


Lambs

1 Dickinson
2 Ford
3 Nel
4 Gilchrist
5 B.Toolis
6 Coman
7 Leonardi
8 Denton

9 Laidlaw CAPTAIN
10 Leonard
11 Visser
12 Strauss
13 Scott
14 Beard
15 Bezuidenhout

Subs - 16 Hilterbrand 17 Blaauw 18 Berghan 19 A.Toolis 20 Basilaia 21 Hart 22 Francis 23 Atiga

Live on TG4

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU, 39th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Peter Fitzgibbon, Kieran Barry (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)
TMO: Seamus Flannery (IRFU)

Reasons to be optimistic...
  


Reasons to be pessimistic...
. Our form (hammered by Munster, lost to Glasgow, lost to Zebre, lost to the Blues)
. Their form (only lost once in the rabo this year)
. The RDS factor (when did we last win over there?)
. Missing players
 - Big Jack Cuthbert is off to the 7's, Tom Brown injured. Do we even have a back 3?
 - Do we have any second rows left who aren't volleyball players?)
. Our players are knackered (Congrats to Nel on the 50 caps!)
. We're Scottish

Final thought...
Given that torture is illegal under international law, I strongly urge you to write to your MP's and maybe Amnesty as well and see if we can't stop this match from happening.

[Golden]

Nice try for Visser.

BOD done his hamstring?

[VinceWLB]

Awesome try!!!

[RDW]

Well deserved!

[GLove39]

Going to be madly frustrating if we get that close but lose. Bloody TMO.

[RDW]

Berghan getting shafted at tighthead

[VinceWLB]

Berghan getting shafted at tighthead

i can understand now why he wasn't given much gametime.

[RDW]

To be fair he's been playing lower level rugby in nz before coming here early.

Still dont know how bringing him over from Nz early was better than just using Geoff Cross...

[VinceWLB]

Basilaia is showing up very well

[RDW]

Coman is doing well at the back of a retreating scrum.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Well played Edinburgh. You probably deserved it.

[RDW]

Very proud of that performance after what has been a tough tough season.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Aye nowt to play for but pride, which they showed

[VinceWLB]

Yep very spirited performance, everyone put their body on the line and that was great to see.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Well played Edinburgh,we were awful but that's been the story of our season.Another year of MoC "rugby" to look forward to next season.

[BigGee]

Well done Edinburgh, showed some pride and fight, which has been lacking at times this year. I hope that bodes well for next year, a strong Edinburgh can only be good for Scottish rugby!

[RDW]

Some nice words from Leo Cullen about the Edinburgh performance

[VinceWLB]

Disallowed try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXh1DM1GorA

Absolutely no Leinster player complained! this to me proves the pass was never forward...

Anyway Edinburgh won the head to head against Leinster 24-21!

[BigGee]

That was harsh, there did not look a lot wrong with that!

Tell you what though, Leinster are going to have to really up it against Ulster. Glasgow could still get the home final, all four of those sides will fancy they can win their semi's. All still to play for!

[RDW]

That really was an appalling tmo decision

[brennomac]

God I feel like a broken record, but yet again a team almost entirely made up of Irish internationals struggles against a team who on paper they should blow away. When was the last time we saw a decent game from Leinster - the away HC game v Northampton. Since then total sh1te - tonight we saw yet more of the same - aimless back line moves without an iota of innovation.

All credit to Edinburgh who had a good try disallowed and arguably should have won. But hey, we're top of the Rabo which apart from three Irish teams. one Welsh and one Scottish team is a truly sh1te league (God I hate giving ammo to the rose-tinted ones who hype up the AP).

And now we play Ulster, whose kids just turned over Munster. If Ulster have Best, Pienaar and co back, then they will beat us based on Leinster's performances in the past few weeks. If that happens, then please let it usher in the departure of MOC, a "coach" who has the knack of turning gold into lead>

[brennomac]

God I feel like a broken record, but yet again a team almost entirely made up of Irish internationals struggles against a team who on paper they should blow away.  When was the last time we saw a decent game from Leinster - the away HC game v Northampton.  Since then total sh1te - tonight we saw yet more of the same - aimless back line moves without an iota of innovation.

All credit to Edinburgh who had a good try disallowed and arguably should have won.   But hey, we're top of the Rabo which apart from three Irish teams. one Welsh and one Scottish team is a  truly sh1te league (God I hate giving ammo to the rose-tinted ones who hype up the AP).

And now we play Ulster, whose kids just turned over Munster.  If Ulster have Best, Pienaar and co back, then they will beat us based on Leinster's performances in the past few weeks.  If that happens, then please let it usher in the departure of MOC, a "coach" who has the knack of turning gold into lead>

[LeinsterFan4life]

MOC will be lucky to still be in charge this time next year. We've gone from the best passing and attacking team in Europe to this in such a short space of time...totally clueless in attack and now the set piece is falling apart. We are lucky to have such talented players in the team as we rely on individual brilliance to get us over the line.

Also it goes without saying the management of the 10 position has been unacceptable. He also wants to bring in an Aussie scrum coach with next to no experience?

[RDW]

Jeezo it must be tough supporting a team that only finished top of the league...   

[asoreleftshoulder]

Jeezo it must be tough supporting a team that only finished top of the league...   

Yeah we're spoiled brats but we've come from being the best team in Europe and we can see the team getting worse as the months go by.It's happening too quickly for comfort.

[RDW]

Being brutally honest, is it not also the case that the squad is maybe a bit over the hill too? There are numerous players on the wrong side of 30 and, like Clermont, the squad needs freshened up!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Disallowed try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXh1DM1GorA

Absolutely no Leinster player complained! this to me proves the pass was never forward...

Anyway Edinburgh won the head to head against Leinster 24-21!

Did seem like a very harsh call - time for country neutral TMOs in the Rabo? (there have been other examples involving Scots and Welsh TMOs tat have been equally suspect/homer calls)

[asoreleftshoulder]

Being brutally honest, is it not also the case that the squad is maybe a bit over the hill too? There are numerous players on the wrong side of 30 and, like Clermont, the squad needs freshened up!

The drop off has been too steep to account for this imo,our centres might be old but they were capable of playing in a winning 6N team in February so they can't be that bad,Mike Ross has been in great form (last next was an exception) since Christmas,only Boss at scrumhalf is really an older guy who looks like time is really catching up with him.

It's the drop in skills that is frustrating,our passing has ability has become worse as the season has gone on,that's got nothing to do with players getting older it has to be because it isn't a priority in training the way it used to be.We have an extremely good pack and our maul and scrum have been our main weapons this season and while we'll always be a decent side when we have those we're not going to win a HC unless we add something extra.

[Golden]

Ive never played a game to a high level, only under age so I dont acually know the answer to this but how can a new coach have such an influence on basic skills? To go from the best passing team in Europe to where we are now seems crazy. Its not like the players just forget how to do it. I can understand a more conservative gameplan means less throwing of the ball around but the inability to complete simple moves is very disheartening.

How can the replacement of a coach have such a negative impact on basic skills like passing and catching? Is it more to do with confidence? The players dont believe in the game-plan so it affects their overall skills like we saw under Deccie?

[RDW]

Another question - do Leinster care about the Pro 12? Is that the reason for the limp performances?

[Notch]

Leinster do, not sure about Munster.

[Notch]

Being brutally honest, is it not also the case that the squad is maybe a bit over the hill too? There are numerous players on the wrong side of 30 and, like Clermont, the squad needs freshened up!

Yeah, problem is for Leinster you can't just go out and buy in a load of players. You can buy one or two but you have to make it work from your own homegrown stocks or whatever other Irish players you can persuade to come aboard. Leinster wouldn't be allowed to do what Edinburgh are trying to do. They wouldn't get that latitude.

They look light in the backs going forward. Light at centre, little light in the back three albeit their first team has quality there. But their death in the front row and back row is unrivalled. Second row is average. Halfbacks are generally very good but they need to blood Luke McGrath soon. The concern would be the quality of Reid and Macken as replacements for D'Arcy/BOD.

I doubt they'll fall out of the Top 4 of the Pro12.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Reid has come on leaps and bounds this season. He is a fine option for the Pro 12 but obviously he has yet to prove himself in the HC. Macken is now being tried as a winger as he simply doesn't have the hands for playing center.

We need a stop gap until we can bring through Daly, Crosbie and Farrell.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Ive never played a game to a high level, only under age so I dont acually know the answer to this but how can a new coach have such an influence on basic skills? To go from the best passing team in Europe to where we are now seems crazy. Its not like the players just forget how to do it. I can understand a more conservative gameplan means less throwing of the ball around but the inability to complete simple moves is very disheartening.

How can the replacement of a coach have such a negative impact on basic skills like passing and catching? Is it more to do with confidence? The players dont believe in the game-plan so it affects their overall skills like we saw under Deccie?

he can have such a negative influence by prioritising different skills.It takes a lot of high intensity practise to get those skills,once you have them you can reduce the workload a little but you still have to keep working on those basics regularly or the players get rusty very quick.

It's the same as fitness you can do all the work and get as fit and strong as you can possibly be but slack off for a few months and you're back to where you were pretty quickly.The only thing is it's usually far easier to get the skills/fitness back once you start training properly again,the body remembers the work you have done before.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Another question - do Leinster care about the Pro 12? Is that the reason for the limp performances?

We definitely care,we've lost too many finals and need to make up for it.The team was good enough to win more titles but we kept on playing big HC finals the week before the Rabo final and being beaten by fresher teams.

[kunu]

Being brutally honest, is it not also the case that the squad is maybe a bit over the hill too? There are numerous players on the wrong side of 30 and, like Clermont, the squad needs freshened up!

They look light in the backs going forward. Light at centre, little light in the back three albeit their first team has quality there. But their death in the front row and back row is unrivalled. Second row is average. Halfbacks are generally very good but they need to blood Luke McGrath soon. The concern would be the quality of Reid and Macken as replacements for D'Arcy/BOD.

I doubt they'll fall out of the Top 4 of the Pro12.

Agree about the centres, we don't have quality there to compete in Europe in the near future. Jack Power could be one to watch for during the next 3/4 years playing at 13. He's far too small at present to transition into the pro game, but looks like a serious prospect. Always good to see a player who doesn't rely on size, but intelligence and natural ability.

Disagree about our halfbacks, well specifically our 10's. Gopperth is useless when it comes to bringing players outside him into the game. Everything good he does comes from his own runs, often at the soft shoulder of an opposition drift. Once you take that out of the equation, he offers little. An average kicker, and a bad tackler.

Unfortunately for us, he suits MOC's game. Backs are never doing anything complicated, and running himself is usually the best choice for Gops. The backs play exactly like Ireland's did under Kidney, during his later seasons. If they can get quick ball continuously, they hammer a team (Northampton in Franklin's). If they don't, they really stall and look clueless (Northampton in the aviva). That level of inconsistency brings back awful memories of Ireland...

To continue on with MOC, we need big centres. There's no point in having smart, skilful players outside of a 10 who simply isn't on the same wavelength as them. Madigan also doesn't gel well with MOC if rumours are to be believed.

[RDW]

Well from an Edinburgh point of view I think it was crucial that we finished on a relative high, looking forward to next season.

Pre season will be a lot easier after a performance like that as opposed to getting another 50 point humping!

[justified sinner]

+1 RDW, still don't think that try should have been ruled out, but hey ho a good performance nonetheless.

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