Saracens vs Harlequins - AP semi final - Saturday

First topic message reminder :

1st vs 4th

The two London clubs of Saracens and Harlequins face off in an interesting derby. Saracens finished on top of the AP pile with a record breaking 87 points. Quins have been building up some decent momentum in the last few weeks with 5 wins in the row.

Key match ups:

Brits vs Ward - the all action South African vs one of the finds of the AP this season

Burger vs Robshaw - the Namibian warrior vs the England captain

Billy Vunipola vs Easter - raw power and youth vs the brain power and experience of Easter

Farrell vs Evans - controlling the game will of course be key.

Goode vs Brown - two of the best full backs in the AP go head to head. Brown has got all the headlines for his all action style - can't leave out his 6 nations which was masteful but Goode has been very influential for Saracens this season - steering Saracens to away wins over Exeter and Bath at 10, one of the best goal kickers this season, causing defensive problems for opposition.


Saracens team to face Harlequins;
15. Alex Goode;
14. Chris Ashton,
13. Marcelo Bosch,
12. Brad Barritt,
11. David Strettle;
10. Owen Farrell,
9. Neil de Kock;

1. Mako Vunipola,
2. Schalk Brits,
3. Matt Stevens,
4. Steve Borthwick ©,
5. Mouritz Botha,
6. Kelly Brown,
7. Jacques Burger,
8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements:
16. Jamie George,
17. Richard Barrington,
18. James Johnston,
19. Alistair Hargreaves,
20. Jackson Wray,
21. Richard Wigglesworth,
22. Charlie Hodgson,
23. Chris Wyles.




Harlequins team
15. Mike Brown
14. Tom Williams
13. Tim Molenaar
12. Jordan Turner-Hall
11. Ugo Monye
10. Nick Evans
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Dave Ward
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Charlie Matthews
5. George Robson
6. Luke Wallace
7. Chris Robshaw (C)
8. Nick Easter

16. Rob Buchanan
17. Mark Lambert
18. Will Collier
19. Nick Kennedy
20. Tom Guest
21. Karl Dickson
22. Ben Botica
23. Sam Smith

Thoughts?

I thought this was a good match.  I rather like both teams so it was hard to root for one team over another.  Started rooting for individual players instead and let the scoreline take care of itself.  
For some reason I feel happy for Borthwick (and his nose).  But for the same reason, I find myself feeling bad for Nick Easter.  

Maybe Quins lost because in the midst of a very important match Mike Brown was trying to poop (yes, I typed poop) and struggled and struggled?
Just an immature thought on a Saturday afternoon (in case you are wondering about the definition of immature, this is it).

Rugby Fan wrote:

quinsforever wrote:How was barritt not tackled?

And how was that a pen for Farrell who wasn't even chasing?

He was tackled, but not held.

Wallace ran in front of Farrell and took him out.

Quins had the right kind of challenge to trouble Saracens but might just be too knackered to see it through.

Uh-oh, is that Mike Brown gone...

The Wallace pen looked like a total hoodwink on the replay in the stadium. Wallace doesn't vary his line... but Farrell clearly does.

Better team on the day won, though

majesticimperialman wrote:I do hope that when Mike Brown was taken off, it was only for (Cramp)  and nothing more.

Any body heared iif it was cramp?

Or was it an Ham string injurie?

He tweeted that his hamstring was in pain, and it'll be assessed tomorrow.

So apparently the trouble that kicked off at half time was because Chris Ashton shouted "Miss it" as Evans took the conversion. I remember hearing something at the time....will have to check the replay.

If that's the case, I hope the little Poopie gets cited and nowhere near an England shirt again.

mid_gen wrote:If that's the case, I hope the little Poopie gets cited and nowhere near an England shirt again.

Cited for what?

The laws say you can't distract a kicker at a conversion by shouting. If Evans had missed, he would have got another chance 10 yards closer. He kicked it, so there's no further sanction.

It's dumb by Ashton because it shows he doesn't know the laws. It's no more than that, though, and Care was just as bad with his gamesmanship. Barnes warned him, but he could have just as easily penalized him under Law 10.4 (m).

I don't know what law, I just think it was terrible unsporting behaviour. I don't have a problem with Ashton per se and the splash doesn't bother me...I just think that behaviour is pathetic. I was going to say most people grow out of that kind of thing at school, but I never knew anyone that would be such a dick as to shout at someone taking a kick even at school.

Billy should look before passing to someone on the opposition, his fault!

It's at 50 minutes on the premiershiprugby.tv full coverage. I was impressed at how quite Allianz park was for kickers...to have one of the players shout. Club should discipline him imo.

mid_gen wrote:Club should discipline him imo.

I wouldn't be against a club fine because it was stupid for Ashton to do it. No advantage could possibly have accrued to his team.

mid_gen wrote:I don't know what law, I just think it was terrible unsporting behaviour. I don't have a problem with Ashton per se and the splash doesn't bother me...I just think that behaviour is pathetic. I was going to say most people grow out of that kind of thing at school, but I never knew anyone that would be such a dick as to shout at someone taking a kick even at school.

Billy should look before passing to someone on the opposition, his fault!

Shouting for the ball when the opposition has it is no different to what Ashton did, doesn't shock me though to see someone call Ashton up but not Care when his was just as bad.

The saints will win the final

TopoftheChops wrote:The saints will win the final

I love you.


Platonically of course.

nathan wrote:Shouting for the ball when the opposition has it is no different to what Ashton did, doesn't shock me though to see someone call Ashton up but not Care when his was just as bad.

Telegraph says he might get a written warning but also suggests a ban is a possibility. That can't be true. If players were banned for being prats then we wouldn't have many scrum halves. Mike Phillips would have had to give up rugby years ago.

I can't see any journalist highlighting Care's gamemanship - which preceded Ashton's yelp and may have prompted his idiocy. It drew a warning from Barnes, so it can't have gone unnoticed. No-one is asking who started the shoving match in the tunnel at half time either.

I don't have a problem with Ashton generally, not even the dives, I think he probably deserves a place in the England squad on form. What he did was the action of a complete tool though. The whole stadium manages to be silent (ignoring the silly waggling fingers), then one of the players on the pitch lets everyone down.

Care was just being a 9, I've seen that thing happen many times while playing...people should be more aware who they are passing to. Never played on a team that has done anything but remain silent for kickers though.

Anyway, each to their own. Looking forward to the HEC and AP final next two weekends

And you don't see the hypocrisy there? I can see why someone would dislike both, or not be bothered by both. I can't see why one would bother you and the other not...other than bias

I'm not a Sarries or Ashton hater, no bias. Being quiet for kickers is one of the basic courtesies players and (some) supporters uphold. That a professional (England!) player would shout at a kicker lining up a kick is disgraceful behaviour imo.

Waving your arms and shouting to see if the opposition player is stupid enough to throw a pass without looking where it's going? Well, tough, he should bloody well look who he is passing to!

You can call it bias if you like, up to you!

My opinion on the game:

Quins started strongly and played very similarly to Saracens which did force errors out of Saracens. This is not Quins' normal gameplan though. I was frustated that Sarries gave a stupid soft try at the end - something that I thought might happen the other way round.

Poor discipline too.

This game was far more scrappy and heated than I expected it to but was disappointed Quins did not play their own style which I feel would have made the game more interesting.

In the 2nd half it was one way traffic - perhaps Quins were fatigued from their 5 "cup finals" as Conor O Shea had said in one interview. Anyway Saracens overpowered Quins in the 2nd half. Quins' bodies were down all over the park in that 2nd half - a mark of not just the game but all the effort in the last few weeks.



As for the frontrow   


Goode - so underrated, safe pair of hands, been one of the key players this season.

It pleases me to see a Saracens attack with more bite.

Thought Farrell, barring the kicking was excellent. Billy Vunipola though! 21? It's just bloody ridiculous.

mid_gen wrote:Waving your arms and shouting to see if the opposition player is stupid enough to throw a pass without looking where it's going? Well, tough, he should bloody well look who he is passing to!

Care isn't just any old player. He's Vunipola's international team mate, and we want our number 8 to be responding instantly to our scrum half's calls to thrive at that level. It's very poor form for Care to exploit that relationship for a bit of gamesmanship at club level. Barnes was right to have a word.

To be honest I think it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Both Care and Ashton showed a bit of gamesmanship. It's not something you want to see but in the heat of the battle - a big game like this unfortunately it can happen.

What I want to see from clubs is that if their players step out of line whether it's on the pitch or off it they are told to apologise to the people they have offended. If they don't it potentially damages the club's reputation.

Rugby players are supposed to be role models yet sometimes I feel that some individuals forget that.

mid_gen wrote:I'm not a Sarries or Ashton hater, no bias. Being quiet for kickers is one of the basic courtesies players and (some) supporters uphold. That a professional (England!) player would shout at a kicker lining up a kick is disgraceful behaviour imo.

Waving your arms and shouting to see if the opposition player is stupid enough to throw a pass without looking where it's going? Well, tough, he should bloody well look who he is passing to!

You can call it bias if you like, up to you!

You're a Quins fan. How is that not biased when discussing the reletive actions of a Quins player and a non-Quins player?

I don't care that it Sarries and I don't care that it's Ashton. It's the fact you're up in arms about bad sportsmanship towards your team but not about bad sportsmanship by your team.

There is a difference, though. Silence during kicks is an established principle and IIRC the limits of what players are allowed to do in preventing the kick are defined in the Laws.

In the heat of play there will be all sorts of calls made by both sides. It's incumbent on the player in possession to know what he's doing and not produce a Pavlovian response to whomsoever calls his name. Otherwise you end up in a position where, say, in a Gloucester/Sarries match you'd have to ban Gloucester players from shouting instructions to Twelvetrees.

While you're at it, you should also ban front rows from sledging each other in the middle of the scrum...

HammerofThunor wrote:
You're a Quins fan. How is that not biased when discussing the reletive actions of a Quins player and a non-Quins player?

If the roles were reversed and it was Care that had shouted at Farrell during a place-kick I would be equally critical of him. Likewise if Ashton had done what Care did and Easter had flung a pass to him without looking, I would consider it cheeky but OK. This is not team or player bias. We just have different opinions of what constitutes bad sportsmanship.

Poorfour both acts by Care and Ashton were unsporting. Just because one act might be more frowned upon than the other doesn't make the other insignificant. Both were looking to gain an advantage through unsporting means.

You can't take the moral high ground. On a side note - why did Sinckler jump when Brits tackled him? Was he trying to get Brits binned?

beshocked wrote:Poorfour both acts by Care and Ashton were unsporting. Just because one act might be more frowned upon than the other doesn't make the other insignificant. Both were looking to gain an advantage through unsporting means.

You can't take the moral high ground. On a side note - why did Sinckler jump when Brits tackled him? Was he trying to get Brits binned?

Trying to get the ball away over the top. It'll teach him not to jump though!

Care's one has more impact on the actual game. If Evans had missed he would have got a chance to retake it because of Ashton's actions. The bad sportsmanship from Care relies on the players to largely police themselves.

I don't really give a toss about either. Ashton's shout is already covered, Care's was a dick move which is allowed. I don't like it but I don't like booing the kickers or players cheating at the breakdown and getting away with it. Not going to change anything.

But to say someone should be cited and banned from playing rugby for England ever again for one offence and the other is a bit cheeky is a warped set of standards, that suggest bias, however it is apparantly just a coincidence that Quins were involved.

Poorfour wrote:There is a difference, though. Silence during kicks is an established principle and IIRC the limits of what players are allowed to do in preventing the kick are defined in the Laws.

Ashton only acted illegally because it was a conversion. The law is less clear about a penalty so there is no "established principle" about kicks. On the whole, officials will likely penalise a shout as they would for a conversion but, as far as the law goes, it would be easier to do so for unsportsmanlike conduct. That's the same law which Barnes would have hit Care with if he'd repeated his action.

beshocked wrote:To be honest I think it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Both Care and Ashton showed a bit of gamesmanship. It's not something you want to see but in the heat of the battle - a big game like this unfortunately it can happen.What I want to see from clubs is that if their players step out of line whether it's on the pitch or off it they are told to apologise to the people they have offended. If they don't it potentially damages the club's reputation.

Rugby players are supposed to be role models yet sometimes I feel that some individuals forget that.

Vehemently disagree. It does happen of course, but the occasion should have nothing to do with it. If anything, it should happen less as players' are increasingly aware of the gravity of the match or its outcome. Such occasions can often bring out the worst in players - and high emotions usually result in a fracas of some description. But in this case both players were guilty of stupid behaviour and both should be punished.

On another point, while disappointed for my team, I am pleased that the two teams finishing first and second in the regular season are the two teams that will contest the final. Saracens especially have grabbed the league by the neck and throttled it. If they don't beat Stains now, it would be considered to be a travesty by most (myself included). That sort of thing is only funny when it happens to Glaws....

Jimpy what do you think the punishment should be?

Disagree - things become heated because of the tension and the desire to win IMO. That will to win is huge. I could even mention a certain hand.  Players try to push the laws to the limit. It's part of the game whether one likes it or not.

In both the Midlands derby and London derby you could see the tension and will to win. Both were definitely quite tense, fractious affairs.

Thank you for saying you are pleased the top 2 teams are in the final. I think Leicester will be back fit and firing next season - too good and consistent a side not to be in the mix again.

Can't help admiring the professionalism of Leicester.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy what do you think the punishment should be?

Disagree - things become heated because of the tension and the desire to win IMO. That will to win is huge. I could even mention a certain hand.  Players try to push the laws to the limit. It's part of the game whether one likes it or not.

In both the Midlands derby and London derby you could see the tension and will to win. Both were definitely quite tense, fractious affairs.

Thank you for saying you are pleased the top 2 teams are in the final. I think Leicester will be back fit and firing next season - too good and consistent a side not to be in the mix again.

Can't help admiring the professionalism of Leicester.

Oh I don't know what the punishment should be, but they ought to receive some kind of sanction, even if that were an official reprimand.

Jimpy simply put do you think he should be banned or not?

Personally I think he should perhaps get a warning. It was stupid sure but I don't think any less unsporting than Care or some other behaviour which players get away with.

Plus I think it's tough to say where you draw the line.

To be honest I think it's been blown out of proportion but that's just me.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy simply put do you think he should be banned or not?
Personally I think he should perhaps get a warning. It was stupid sure but I don't think any less unsporting than Care or some other behaviour which players get away with.

Plus I think it's tough to say where you draw the line.

To be honest I think it's been blown out of proportion but that's just me.

Absolutely not - has anybody suggested that? A reprimand should suffice I would think. The clubs should take the matter into their own hands and deal with it internally. It brings the clubs into disrepute.

finally getting around to watching the game, did anyone notice Joe Marler telling the cameraman to Frak off?

nathan wrote:finally getting around to watching the game, did anyone notice Joe Marler telling the cameraman to Frak off?

Yeah he apologised on Twitter

ChequeredJersey wrote:

nathan wrote:finally getting around to watching the game, did anyone notice Joe Marler telling the cameraman to Frak off?

Yeah he apologised on Twitter

Wasn't having a go at him, I imagine he was pretty worked up at that point.

Not sure if I've posted or not but well done to Sarries. They more then deserved the win and the writing was on the wall when we conceded a try against 13 men. Just knew we weren't going to have the precision you need to beat Saracens.

They've been a well drilled machine all season and unless Saints play like men possesed I can't see them losing the final.