Un-sportsmanship - who is the biggest unsporty

All

Two examples of Un-sportsmanlike occurred this weekend that is a slight worry for me - as i feel it is a symptom of how our game is slowly losing the respect and culture it is based on


One, - a player shouting miss it when the kick is being taken

two - a player shouting to the opposition to pass it to them


My questions are - shout these players be cited and which of them would you consider to be the most reprehensible - or do you think - ah well that is just part of the game.

I remember Lou Reed being penalised for shouting at the kicking player as he attempted a charge down - thought it was a little bizarre at the time

Never heard of players shouting at the kicker before but I've even heard commentators this season (Healy who is the epitome of fair) saying give the opposition a shout for a pass. Purely as it's rarer I'll go with Ashton a player shouting miss it.

Should be a 4th option. As bad as each other - both are gamesmanship and trying to gain an advantage for their side. No they shouldn't be cited but they should both be reprimanded and told not to do it again - formal warning to both.

beshocked wrote:Should be a 4th option. As bad as each other - both are gamesmanship and trying to gain an advantage for their side. No they shouldn't be cited but they should both be reprimanded and told not to do it again - formal warning to both.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I went for 2. No 1 is against the laws and is govened by the normal framework, i.e. the kicker player could have another go. For 2 the player can do it (and it's happened plenty of time in the past so not sure why it's suddenly a major problem) and is governed by themselves or what the ref deems as sufficient bad sportsmanship.

One can effect the game (significantly) one can't. So technically one is cheating (and easily picked up) and one is bad sportsmanship.

I don't see what the problem is with calling for a pass. It's not like there is a long standing tradition in rugby of remaining silent while players pass the ball. I can see how it is slightly unsportsmanlike but its not in the same league as shouting to distract a placekicker which is (or should be) taboo. As well as that, it's still the player who passes the ball to an opponents fault if he is duped.

The pass thing should be a slight ticking off at best. The kick thing should be a yellow card at the time, no further action. But a definite yellow card for sheer lack of sportsmanship. How do you expect the crowd to maintain silence for place kicks if the players can't set an example?

Booing a kicker by fans is fine though. Isn't that right Notch  

?

No, of course it isn't. Thats the point.

There isn't a long standing tradition of being silence for kickers in certain crowds.

One rule for one and one for another?

It's still cheating for player X to try and confuse player Y by shouting.

It was completely acceptable for Ulster fans to boo Farrell when he kicked in the HC quarter final. Haven't heard you condemning them.

I've seen players calling for the pass from opposition in the past and if the passing player is suckered then more fool him and I've not got much of a problem with that. The antics of splashton just continue to set the worst example to any kids interested in rugby. If we let this slide what's next? He needs to be taken aside, told he's not playing league any more and it's time to grow up and set a decent example. He's not the kind of player Union needs, he's a bag for tools.

Unfortunately Ashton isn't the only player who needs to be told to grow up.

beshocked wrote:There isn't a long standing tradition of being silence for kickers in certain crowds.

One rule for one and one for another?

It's still cheating for player X to try and confuse player Y by shouting.

It was completely acceptable for Ulster fans to boo Farrell when he kicked in the HC quarter final. Haven't heard you condemning them.

You are turning into quite an obsessive. Firstly, I did not hear any major booing for Farrell. Ashton was booed for swan diving, the referee was booed for the red card but any booing there was for him in that crowd represents a minority who are very obviously in the wrong in the way they acted.

Secondly, I personally have never booed a kicker and never will. I also do not boo referees or anyone else. In the past I have made efforts to stop other people booing kickers when attending matches when they are standing near me. I'm sorry if people take the actions of other fans the wrong way but I am only responsible for myself.

beshocked wrote:Unfortunately Ashton isn't the only player who needs to be told to grow up.

Unfortunately this is true and we need it done, we need them told, rugby union is proudly rooted in mutual repect both from players and fans. When I see the super rugby stars doing robot dancing etc it makes me want to throttle them (if I was a braver and stronger man). The worst for me, that moment you want the ground to open up and swallow someone is the couple of occasions that Jared Payne has decided to do some kind of 'look I'm riding an invisible horse' dance. Thankfully something he has stopped.

However......the Ash Splash goes on and add that to childishly shouting at an opposition kicker and you can hardly blame people finding it hard not to want him gone or kicked firmly in the buttocks........by the very kicker he hollered at, now there's fair punishment.

Pete I think that's the problem - mutual respect is something I think has been eroded in rugby.

Sometimes I am not convinced that some players actually hold any respect for fans.

Mutual respect is part of sportsmanship too.

Plus mutual respect for fans - this whole European issue has caused an unfortunate amount of mutual disrespect - Pro12 fans disrespecting AP ones, AP ones disrespecting the Pro12 etc.

Worrying trend that we are becoming like football. As a collective we should look to turn this around.

Absolutely but thankfully we're nowhere close to even begin sliding down the slippery slope to football's level. All my friends and family are footy fans so I don't despise supporters of the sphere. I simply do see them say and do things that rugby fans would never. As for players, thankfully once again we're miles away but turning a blind eye to one incident of infection could become an epidemic. I love meeting fellow rugby fans and have yet to have a bad experience (although tools to pop up once in a while) and it's this mutual respect we have to guard at all costs. Between fans, between players and between both fans AND players.

Pete unfortunately I disagree. I think we could be on the slippery slope and it worries me.

Genuinely never knew calling for the oppo ball was deemed foul play. Why's it then allowed at lineout time though?

yappysnap wrote:Genuinely never knew calling for the oppo ball was deemed foul play. Why's it then allowed at lineout time though?

The lineout is a contested set piece where the idea is to allow both teams to compete for the ball. A pass is not, and it's unsporting behaviour for an opponent to impersonate a teammate to try to win the ball. Not illegal per se, but unsporting.

Just to add my 2p, I think they're both as bad as each other. A quiet word or penalty should suffice, and if it happens again then yellow card. Citings though are for potential red card offences, and a bit extreme for a single instance of unsporting behaviour.

Callum Clark.

Nematode wrote:Callum Clark.

Good point.

both as bad as each other, can't understand how people could think any different..... oh i do, one was done by Ashton......

Still cracks me up that the Ash Splash annoys people so much, it never seemed to with Shane Williams.

Yeah, but Shane a cheeky choppy where as Ashton is an arrogant Tinkywinky /sarcasm.

Are the irb going to fine or caution every fan in the stadium who jeers a kicker?

Unsportsmanship sure but this ain't a world of fair play... Rugby is known to have very grey rules. The best are those operate between those deemed illegal and those deemed legal.

People should get off their high horse on this one and stop pretending rugby is a purist sport only played by tally oh young chaps like George from blackadder.

If you hold on at a ruck should you be officially warned for slowing down play and preventing a try???

I voted for part of the game.

The first one is silly, but it's something out of nothing. If the kick is missed and the referee (who is standing next to the kicker) deems the noise distracting enough he can ask for the kick to be retaken. In any case, I don't think any further action should be taken by the referee (save for maybe a word in the player's ear) or the citing commissioner. Maybe a clip round the ear from your coach, especially if it did present a second chance to the kicker, but it has been blown out of all proportion because of the player involved.

The second one I think is a case of you know you shouldn't do it, but if you think you can get away with it and get a material advantage for your team, why not? A blind offload is risky at best and the ball carrier was under no obligation to pass it without checking the source of the voice. It's on par with putting a hand in the ruck for me, that one. It's cheating, but it's not unacceptable.

I recall outrage when Delon Armitage taunted an opponent as he went over for a try during the Heineken Cup final. A couple of weeks later, Mike Phillips - who can be a world class idiot - and George North - who seems decent - both did the same while representing the Lions. It didn't go unnoticed, but any criticism was far more muted.

Double standards are a regular feature in these kinds of discussions. We are quicker to forgive indiscretions on our own side partly because we know the players. England supporters don't see Martin Johnson as a thug, although he has thrown more than his fair share of punches; and when Schalk Burger gouged Luke Fitzgerald, Bok fans forgave him instantly because "he's not like that". Many New Zealanders still exonerate Umaga and Mealamu for their role in spearing BOD, because both are excellent players who had no record of such an action before.

One of the words I fear most these days is "streetwise". I suspect some who excuse Care for his actions at the weekend do so because he has a cheeky chappy persona and it seemed a cheeky, streetwise thing to do.

You know what else is streetwise? Knocking the ball out of the scrum half's hands at a scrum put-in; tugging players back or holding them down in the tackle. I hear commentators suggesting that players make a meal of it when they are obstructed so the referee notices it. Apparently, that's what a streetwise professional player does.

For me, streetwise shouldn't be about trying to con the referee. It should be when you take advantage of habits of thought on the pitch through tactics like quick taps, dummy passes or short line-outs. Such plays reward those who keep their wits about them, and know the laws of the game.

We can't get too precious, however. The players are people, not automatons.

nathan wrote:both as bad as each other, can't understand how people could think any different..... oh i do, one was done by Ashton......

Still cracks me up that the Ash Splash annoys people so much, it never seemed to with Shane Williams.

Oh, i think you'll find it did you know...

Is it disrespectful for a winger to purposely slow down and then speed up again for jokes?

That is what Fijians are famed for.

I played the British army 7s years ago. Was chasing down this fijian chap and he taunted me all the way. Allowing me to get within metres and then putting on the afterburners for a few seconds, then slowing down and repeating for about 50 metres... all with a big grin on his face.

That was just as bad  but I don't blame him... if I could have done it I would have done and have done similar in the past. Although hey, I piled into him knees first on him scoring the try which he wasn't happy about. Don't advocate violence but in this game, if you want to taunt, so be it... but you'll be targeted for special treatment thereafter.

Think someone like Ashton doesn't get abuse on pitch for his actions... of course he does.

Its the same for any overtly confident player. It keeps them in check.

In the old days players never held on in the ruck... why because the old school code of raking made painful consequences. It all used to be sorted out in-house and therefore petty things we see in the game simply didn't happen as much as it does today.

Players today know that they can be arrogant and cocky and the opposition can't do that much about it without hurting themselves in the process (legality wise). I think it was Wade Dooley after being punched in the face who got up and said to the official..."referee, do not send that F***** off". I bet that guy was pleading to be sent off thereafter.

fa0019 wrote:Is it disrespectful for a winger to purposely slow down and then speed up again for jokes?

That is what Fijians are famed for.

I played the British army 7s years ago. Was chasing down this fijian chap and he taunted me all the way. Allowing me to get within metres and then putting on the afterburners for a few seconds, then slowing down and repeating for about 50 metres... all with a big grin on his face.

That was just as bad  but I don't blame him... if I could have done it I would have done and have done similar in the past. Although hey, I piled into him knees first on him scoring the try which he wasn't happy about. Don't advocate violence but in this game, if you want to taunt, so be it... but you'll be targeted for special treatment thereafter.

Think someone like Ashton doesn't get abuse on pitch for his actions... of course he does.

Its the same for any overtly confident player. It keeps them in check.

In the old days players never held on in the ruck... why because the old school code of raking made painful consequences. It all used to be sorted out in-house and therefore petty things we see in the game simply didn't happen as much as it does today.

Players today know that they can be arrogant and cocky and the opposition can't do that much about it without hurting themselves in the process (legality wise). I think it was Wade Dooley after being punched in the face who got up and said to the official..."referee, do not send that F***** off". I bet that guy was pleading to be sent off thereafter.

Did you feel like a big man afterwards?   

Do you honestly think his actions warranted a petulant physical assault? Still, I expect justice was done when the Army boys ran in try after try against you for the remainder of the match.

Jimpy wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Is it disrespectful for a winger to purposely slow down and then speed up again for jokes?

That is what Fijians are famed for.

I played the British army 7s years ago. Was chasing down this fijian chap and he taunted me all the way. Allowing me to get within metres and then putting on the afterburners for a few seconds, then slowing down and repeating for about 50 metres... all with a big grin on his face.

That was just as bad  but I don't blame him... if I could have done it I would have done and have done similar in the past. Although hey, I piled into him knees first on him scoring the try which he wasn't happy about. Don't advocate violence but in this game, if you want to taunt, so be it... but you'll be targeted for special treatment thereafter.

Think someone like Ashton doesn't get abuse on pitch for his actions... of course he does.

Its the same for any overtly confident player. It keeps them in check.

In the old days players never held on in the ruck... why because the old school code of raking made painful consequences. It all used to be sorted out in-house and therefore petty things we see in the game simply didn't happen as much as it does today.

Players today know that they can be arrogant and cocky and the opposition can't do that much about it without hurting themselves in the process (legality wise). I think it was Wade Dooley after being punched in the face who got up and said to the official..."referee, do not send that F***** off". I bet that guy was pleading to be sent off thereafter.

Did you feel like a big man afterwards?   

Do you honestly think his actions warranted a petulant physical assault? Still, I expect justice was done when the Army boys ran in try after try against you for the remainder of the match.

Its nothing about feeling like the big man. If you don't... they'll do it again and again and again

Thats the beauty of the amateur era..... showboating and blatant poor sportsmanship was far less frequent because the consequences was dire.

I recall a story about the welsh legend Graham Price giving Chilcott a lesson in not to try too hard against him. Its an education.... but this is all was taken out the game and rather than the odd punch when a chap got out of line... we have continuous bad mouthing, foul play, pushing, shirt tugging etc like 2 kids in a play ground afraid to actually hit the other guy. It was better in the old days and safer too. If you didn't fall out of line, you wouldn't get targeted.

I've been out of line before and got a beasting, not just from the opposition but my captain also because it puts your team performance under difficulty as they have to back you no matter what. Its an education, one that is regretfully leaving the game.

In terms of the game, yeah they won but it was hardly a walkover. These guys are physically in tiptop condition, some of them play rugby full-time. It was in the latter end KO stages of a national tournament, we were a good outfit, not bad for a bunch of workmates who got together with a couple of training sessions. There are a lot of talented chaps in the city (when I worked in the UK), lot of old pros, semi-pros, chaps who just never made it or saw other routes more desirable.

a chap like Mike Phillips would never have been allowed to get all mouthy in the old days.... great to have someone on the edge but he often tips over much to his and Wales detriment.

fa0019 wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Is it disrespectful for a winger to purposely slow down and then speed up again for jokes?

That is what Fijians are famed for.

I played the British army 7s years ago. Was chasing down this fijian chap and he taunted me all the way. Allowing me to get within metres and then putting on the afterburners for a few seconds, then slowing down and repeating for about 50 metres... all with a big grin on his face.

That was just as bad  but I don't blame him... if I could have done it I would have done and have done similar in the past. Although hey, I piled into him knees first on him scoring the try which he wasn't happy about. Don't advocate violence but in this game, if you want to taunt, so be it... but you'll be targeted for special treatment thereafter.

Think someone like Ashton doesn't get abuse on pitch for his actions... of course he does.

Its the same for any overtly confident player. It keeps them in check.

In the old days players never held on in the ruck... why because the old school code of raking made painful consequences. It all used to be sorted out in-house and therefore petty things we see in the game simply didn't happen as much as it does today.

Players today know that they can be arrogant and cocky and the opposition can't do that much about it without hurting themselves in the process (legality wise). I think it was Wade Dooley after being punched in the face who got up and said to the official..."referee, do not send that F***** off". I bet that guy was pleading to be sent off thereafter.

Did you feel like a big man afterwards?   

Do you honestly think his actions warranted a petulant physical assault? Still, I expect justice was done when the Army boys ran in try after try against you for the remainder of the match.

Its nothing about feeling like the big man. If you don't... they'll do it again and again and again

Thats the beauty of the amateur era..... showboating and blatant poor sportsmanship was far less frequent because the consequences was dire.

I recall a story about the welsh legend Graham Price giving Chilcott a lesson in not to try too hard against him. Its an education.... but this is all was taken out the game and rather than the odd punch when a chap got out of line... we have continuous bad mouthing, foul play, pushing, shirt tugging etc like 2 kids in a play ground afraid to actually hit the other guy. It was better in the old days and safer too. If you didn't fall out of line, you wouldn't get targeted.

I've been out of line before and got a beasting, not just from the opposition but my captain also because it puts your team performance under difficulty as they have to back you no matter what. Its an education, one that is regretfully leaving the game.

In terms of the game, yeah they won but it was hardly a walkover. These guys are physically in tiptop condition, some of them play rugby full-time. It was in the latter end KO stages of a national tournament, we were a good outfit, not bad for a bunch of workmates who got together with a couple of training sessions. There are a lot of talented chaps in the city (when I worked in the UK), lot of old pros, semi-pros, chaps who just never made it or saw other routes more desirable.

 
So, what you're saying (and advocating) is that if somebody does something you don't like, then you're perfectly within your rights to physically assault them -  as some sort of punishment? Because, well hey, this is rugby and therefore its alright?
 
Well here is the news, it isn't. What would have happened if your little show of bravado had resulted if the chap you freely admit to knee dropping had had his back broken by your actions? Would it have been alright then? We're not talking about a punch here and there, or a bit of sledging - you're talking about a violent physical assault that could result in serious injury.
 
I tell you what, it's not 'education' that should be reintroduced into the game, its dinosaurs like you that should be kept as far away from it as possible, because clearly you find/found it hard to diferentiate between what constitutes acceptable (and legal) adult behaviour and what constitutes basic thuggery.

There is no hiding on a rugby pitch. Yout get what you put in. You smoke.... don't be surprised if you get lung cancer so to speak.

If a guy beats you for pace, no problem for that.... if the guy wants afters however then expect a reaction.

Was the old days full of thuggery... no. Did it happen sometimes, yes. Was their much pettiness in the game, hardly none.

Compare that to the modern game where we see backchat, disrespect, showboating, lots of bickering & complaining and illegal play such as holding onto the ball... why because there is no incentive NOT to do it.

fa0019 wrote:There is no hiding on a rugby pitch. Yout get what you put in. You smoke.... don't be surprised if you get lung cancer so to speak.

If a guy beats you for pace, no problem for that.... if the guy wants afters however then expect a reaction.

Was the old days full of thuggery... no. Did it happen sometimes, yes. Was their much pettiness in the game, hardly none.

Compare that to the modern game where we see backchat, disrespect, showboating, lots of bickering & complaining and illegal play such as holding onto the ball... why because there is no incentive NOT to do it.

 
The incentive not to do it is that its sanctionable by the referee. Taking matters into your own hands is childish and unecessary. I played the game for 30 years at many levels and I don't think dissent is any worse now than it was then. Scruitany of the game however, is huge compared to pre-professional era rugby. Professional players can expect to be caught on camera or microphone pretty much anywhere on the pitch. Its no wonder that the perception is that players are more badly behaved now than they once were.
 
What hasn't changed however, is that physical assault was and still is a criminal offence. I thank my luck that the people I played with or against, on the whole, were gentlemen and didn't conduct or endorse violent or vicious behaviour such as the type your seemingly not concerned about openly admitting... How ironic that this article is concerned with what and what isn't sportsmanlike and you're saying that attempting to paralyse somebody should be brought back in some sort of pseudo self policing rule.

nathan wrote:both as bad as each other, can't understand how people could think any different..... oh i do, one was done by Ashton......

Still cracks me up that the Ash Splash annoys people so much, it never seemed to with Shane Williams.

He did it like twice throughout his career, so it always makes me laugh when people try and bring him down to Ashton's level. According to the RFU Ashton has 19 tries so I make that 20 swan dives. 19 of them just as he is about to score a try and the extra one coming against France in 2011 when he thought he scored but the ball had travelled forward .

The Ash Splash doesn't really annoy me, but I just don't get why he is still doing it?

There's more sledging in cricket than in rugby, which cracks me up no end.

Does unsporting conduct have to involve the player saying anything? I've seen Jim Hamilton stand in a lineout on the opposition's throw and frantically wave for the hooker to throw it to him. Makes me laugh every time but I wouldn't have thought of it as unsporting.

Still, it didn't matter to folks when he did it - no matter how little.

Ashton has said why he does it, he does it for himself, its his way to celebrate. If that's the case then so be it, no different to the SH players doing breakdancing moves after they've scored a try.