England XV vs New Zealand First Test

First topic message reminder :

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2. *Rob Webber(Bath)        Dave Ward (Harlequins)
3. Dave Wilson (Bath)
4. Joe Launchberry (Wasps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester)

9. Danny Care (Harlequins)
10. Danny Cipriani (Sale)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester)
12. *Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester) Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
13. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester)
14. Marland Yard (Harlequins)
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)

16. Dave Ward (Harlequins)        Joe Gray (Harlequins)
17. Matt Mullan (Wasps)
18. Henry Thomas (Bath)
19. Ed Slater (Leicester)
20. James Haskell (Wasps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester)
22. Freddie Burns (Leicester)
23. Kyle Eastmond (Bath)        Henry Trinder (Gloucester)

*Injury concern...

Thoughts?

Is Danny Care out now? I havent heard this one? Well i hope Ben Youngs is in form.

It hasn't been confirmed but he has a shoulder knock. SL won't want to miss an important player for the whole series but he's conscious no doubt of putting in two halves that are low in test match experience. If he's not 100% he can't be risked but I'm sure SL's mindful of how much the England attack will be blunted without his spark plug at 9.

Youngs has been playing better for Tigers, still not on top form though. He's the sort of player that needs game time to improve though.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It hasn't been confirmed but he has a shoulder knock. SL won't want to miss an important player for the whole series but he's conscious no doubt of putting in two halves that are low in test match experience. If he's not 100% he can't be risked but I'm sure SL's mindful of how much the England attack will be blunted without his spark plug at 9.

Youngs has plenty of experience at 9 for England.

More so than Burns, undoubtedly, but not much experience at starting, at least for a while and I'd suggest that's for a good reason.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:More so than Burns, undoubtedly, but not much experience at starting, at least for a while and I'd suggest that's for a good reason.

he has 35 caps, alot of them at the starting position. Agree though he hasn't had recent experience.

He started a couple of seasons ago when Care was having his issues. But I never saw Youngs play the way Care did this 6N season. He's not a bad player but if Care's out, there's no way Youngs is capable of making the same impact, past form or present form regardless. I just really appreciated the zippiness of Care and even Farrell fed off that zip. Now the onus will be on Burns to muster that level of creativity because I don't think Youngs is the man to provide that and I think that's too much pressure on the young lad, Burns. Maybe he'll prove me wrong but I don't see it with so many new faces or combinations in this England squad.

Youngs is a curious one.

I actually think on top form he is a cracking player who can play that playmaker role very well.

The problem is he seems injury prone and inconsitant, so we dont see that top form much at all.

Lets hope a good spell with lancaster and the England camp will have given him a good boost.

Is Mike Lawes not playing?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Mike Lawes not playing?

No don't think so, someone said he's been replaced by Doyle Retailpark

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He started a couple of seasons ago when Care was having his issues. But I never saw Youngs play the way Care did this 6N season.

Youngs has a longer history than that. He was on fire in 2010, especially during back-to-back wins over Australia, and looked like he'd hold the scrum half spot for years to come. However, he was well off his best at the World Cup in 2011 when he started, although did OK as a replacement, notably scoring a key late try in that nervy group stage win over Argentina.

Since then, we've really been waiting for him to recapture that early promise on a more consistent basis. He had some brighter moments in 2012 but I don't think going on the Lions tour in 2013 really did him any favours. I think he has admitted as much himself.

I think he was mixing him up with Paterson or he's a retardalick
On a positive note 10 or 11 of this squad have beaten the all blacks before.
How many other international sides can match that?

One thing which could help England is that Nonu will be salivating a the thought of running at Burns/Cipriani and Eastmond. Maybe he salivates so much he chokes on his own saliva and has to spend time in hospital.

It would be some thing if England won the first test. Especially when they have 14/15 players from there first choice players missing from the first game.

Keep dreaming then madge.

Yeah i dont think we'll be winnig this one.

Well at least Youngs and Burns gets some pre season game time before the all important tigers matchs.

 On his day Youngs is level with Care imo. Also Youngs hasn't had the chance to play with the new found attacking England backline, and one of his main criticism is he try's to hard to do it himself instead of just sending out quick, clean ball.

 But neither do well at the same time unfortunately for England. Although they come across as quite nice to each other well judging by the quins v tigers game this year, I guess both of them know what it feels to drop of the England radar.

Well despite my head telling me we stand a tiny chance that stupid feeling of hope of optimism is starting to grow which will lead to pain, disappointment and drinknig tomorrow.

Welly wrote:Well at least Youngs and Burns gets some pre season game time before the all important tigers matchs.

 On his day Youngs is level with Care imo. Also Youngs hasn't had the chance to play with the new found attacking England backline, and one of his main criticism is he try's to hard to do it himself instead of just sending out quick, clean ball.

 But neither do well at the same time unfortunately for England. Although they come across as quite nice to each other well judging by the quins v tigers game this year, I guess both of them know what it feels to drop of the England radar.

Totally agree about Youngs Welly. He's an outstanding scrum half on his days but needs to perform a higher standard consistantly.

Consistancy with Youngs is the big issue.

He seems to pick up niggly injuries which just stiffle his return to form a little.

But hopefully he can go out there and just show his top game.

The one thing that England have...is that they have nothing to lose. They are essentially an 'A' side, they are in a place where NZ just dont lose, and are playing probably NZ's full strength side. They are expected to lose...and lose heavily.

They should just go out relaxed and say "hey...lets just have a right go at them. "

Care confirmed this morning as out. I am not sure how that changes things. He has driven the creativity in England's backline - but I did worry that Care/Burns or Care/Cipriani would be a case of too much creativity.

Still Youngs is not a bad alternative at all, will have been training with Burns all week and both players have a club and country vested interest in making the partnership work. It's just frustrating that Lancaster is short of yet another first choice player.

Considering who isn't available, I don't think the is a bad team.

I don't think England will win tomorrow morning, but I think it will be a decent contest until the 60 minute mark or so. England's pack actually looks really strong to me, and I actually love that backrow combination. I expect the forward battle to be relatively even, but with the ABs having more potent backs, they'll make most of the ball they do have to play with.

I reckon ABs by 12.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Consistancy with Youngs is the big issue.

He seems to pick up niggly injuries which just stiffle his return to form a little.

But hopefully he can go out there and just show his top game.

The one thing that England have...is that they have nothing to lose. They are essentially an 'A' side, they are in a place where NZ just dont lose, and are playing probably NZ's full strength side. They are expected to lose...and lose heavily.

They should just go out relaxed and say "hey...lets just have a right go at them. "

Yeh, you're completely right about Youngs' consistency. He's been so up and down the last few seasons, but towards the end of this season he seems to have found his game again. He's such a dangerous player when he's on form, and luckily for England he seems to be turning a corner. I'm apprehensive about the game, but I've got a little feeling than Youngs is going to have a stormer   

bluestonevedder wrote:Considering who isn't available, I don't think the is a bad team.

I don't think England will win tomorrow morning, but I think it will be a decent contest until the 60 minute mark or so. England's pack actually looks really strong to me, and I actually love that backrow combination. I expect the forward battle to be relatively even, but with the ABs having more potent backs, they'll make most of the ball they do have to play with.

I reckon ABs by 12.

That's probably a fair shout. My hopes for this team are that they:
i) Make the ABs work for their points, especially in the first 10
ii) Get parity up front and keep the defensive pressure on
iii) Cause some defensive problems for the ABs
iv) Are still in the contest at 60 minutes.

However, I think you are right that the 60 minute point will be where the ABs can pull away. A crucial difference is that the AB bench has far more experience and will be better able to come onto the pitch without losing shape. England will struggle at that point, because so many of the combinations just won't have played together.

Poorfour wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Considering who isn't available, I don't think the is a bad team.

I don't think England will win tomorrow morning, but I think it will be a decent contest until the 60 minute mark or so. England's pack actually looks really strong to me, and I actually love that backrow combination. I expect the forward battle to be relatively even, but with the ABs having more potent backs, they'll make most of the ball they do have to play with.

I reckon ABs by 12.

That's probably a fair shout. My hopes for this team are that they:
i) Make the ABs work for their points, especially in the first 10
ii) Get parity up front and keep the defensive pressure on
iii) Cause some defensive problems for the ABs
iv) Are still in the contest at 60 minutes.

However, I think you are right that the 60 minute point will be where the ABs can pull away. A crucial difference is that the AB bench has far more experience and will be better able to come onto the pitch without losing shape. England will struggle at that point, because so many of the combinations just won't have played together.

Agree with those 4 points Poorfour. Though I'd add another point to that list too:

v) Don't concede points in the first 2 minutes

We always seems to concede early tries in matches where we need to make a point. NZ in the Autumn, France in the Six nations this year. It's so frustrating.

I think at around the 6o minute mark, our forwards will start to tire a little bit. Not because they're unfit because we know that this England pack is capable of playing a lot of teams off the park, but because they're having to make a lot more tackles and hit more breakdowns because of AB's majority possession. I think we'll then lose the defensive structure in the backs because they're new combinations, and the flood gates will open a bit.

Like you said also, that AB bench is pretty intimidating, eh?

They have to follow the way they played in 2012.

They simply smashed anyone who moved
They hit every ruck with maniacal aggression
They Were direct and efficient ball in hand

Simply said they beat NZ at their own game...higher intensity and got the basics absolutely spot on.

Is this team able to replicate that? I think the forwards "potentially could"...but im not sure on the backs.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He started a couple of seasons ago when Care was having his issues. But I never saw Youngs play the way Care did this 6N season. He's not a bad player but if Care's out, there's no way Youngs is capable of making the same impact, past form or present form regardless. I just really appreciated the zippiness of Care and even Farrell fed off that zip. Now the onus will be on Burns to muster that level of creativity because I don't think Youngs is the man to provide that and I think that's too much pressure on the young lad, Burns. Maybe he'll prove me wrong but I don't see it with so many new faces or combinations in this England squad.

This is one of my 'i told you so' moments. Not to you, but to every other person who said Youngs was better than Care. He isn't, he wasn't and he won't be in future. It isn't a matter of him getting his form back, Care is a better player than Youngs in almost all facets. God I'm feeling even smugger than usual, but it is nice to hear a Kiwi support my thinking!

Oh and I entirely agree with your thoughts.

11 Hours to Haka.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
11 Hours to Haka.

Yep a game that I feel England fans have been dreading and anticipating in equal measure since the Six Nations is almost upon us! In fact just a nights sleep away for those in the NH - probably a fairly short one as well for some given Friday activities   

The key for England to stay in touch will as always be matching the AB's intensity and proficiency at the breakdown and in contact in general. The same as any game if we can stop the opposition building quick ball and momentum then the likes of Nonu will struggle even running at the diminutive stature of our 10/12 axis.

This point is particularly pertinent with Read and Savea out as whilst NZ have terrific players across the board those are the two who are most capable at creating something from nothing. They are NZ's best players in my book and big losses to how NZ would look to play if we can slow them at the breakdown and disrupt them at set piece - neither of which are vaguely easy tasks I accept!

I think we also can't underestimate the importance of a FB like Brown when against NZ's kicking game either. They are the masters at kicking regularly but doing so extremely accurately and knowing when to put boot to ball and when not to. Kick accurately and pressure a poor decision out of the receiving back three then turn them over and counter. It is a lethally well drilled game plan.

However if there was one FB in world rugby at the moment I'd pick to counter it and put the pressure back onto the NZ kicking game then it's Brown. Give him a metre and he takes 10. He almost always beats the first man and has looked near unparallelled in the air since moving to 15 for England - apologies to Ireland and Kearney fans! It's a huge chance for Brown too solidify an already considerable reputation on the International stage.

I accept the challenge is huge. I'm certainly not expecting miracles from England and would probably place a win at Eden Park in these circumstances close to the miracle bracket. Still though I can't wait and hope for a great game either way with both sides throwing everything they have at each other and playing some good rugby.

The international window is back upon us. May everyone sit back and enjoy!   or more likely   for those in the NH

Strange to have a no-pressure England game!

Fully expecting Lancaster's lads to get thrashed; anything under a twenty point defeat will be decent going. I expect England to stay in touch till around the half-time mark, then New Zealand should pull away.

Now Tests 2 and 3...they're the ones to look out for.

Hood83 wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He started a couple of seasons ago when Care was having his issues. But I never saw Youngs play the way Care did this 6N season. He's not a bad player but if Care's out, there's no way Youngs is capable of making the same impact, past form or present form regardless. I just really appreciated the zippiness of Care and even Farrell fed off that zip. Now the onus will be on Burns to muster that level of creativity because I don't think Youngs is the man to provide that and I think that's too much pressure on the young lad, Burns. Maybe he'll prove me wrong but I don't see it with so many new faces or combinations in this England squad.

This is one of my 'i told you so' moments. Not to you, but to every other person who said Youngs was better than Care. He isn't, he wasn't and he won't be in future. It isn't a matter of him getting his form back, Care is a better player than Youngs in almost all facets. God I'm feeling even smugger than usual, but it is nice to hear a Kiwi support my thinking!

Oh and I entirely agree with your thoughts.

Care has been excellent of late but it's took him this long to stake his claim. Youngs has put in some amazing performances for England (notably Aus & SA).

Your smugness is misplaced imo as Care is just the form player out of the two currently. He hasn't been in the past and he may not be in the future.

We have two quality 9 options, I personally think Youngs has pushed Care into kicking on to the next level.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He started a couple of seasons ago when Care was having his issues. But I never saw Youngs play the way Care did this 6N season. He's not a bad player but if Care's out, there's no way Youngs is capable of making the same impact, past form or present form regardless. I just really appreciated the zippiness of Care and even Farrell fed off that zip. Now the onus will be on Burns to muster that level of creativity because I don't think Youngs is the man to provide that and I think that's too much pressure on the young lad, Burns. Maybe he'll prove me wrong but I don't see it with so many new faces or combinations in this England squad.

This is one of my 'i told you so' moments. Not to you, but to every other person who said Youngs was better than Care. He isn't, he wasn't and he won't be in future. It isn't a matter of him getting his form back, Care is a better player than Youngs in almost all facets. God I'm feeling even smugger than usual, but it is nice to hear a Kiwi support my thinking!

Oh and I entirely agree with your thoughts.

Care has been excellent of late but it's took him this long to stake his claim. Youngs has put in some amazing performances for England (notably Aus & SA).

Your smugness is misplaced imo as Care is just the form player out of the two currently. He hasn't been in the past and he may not be in the future.

We have two quality 9 options, I personally think Youngs has pushed Care into kicking on to the next level.

I think Care has been consistently better at club level for some time, and just needed to be given the time at int. level. Also, I'd had a couple of afternoon drinks so was feeling bolshy   

Smug and bolshey. sounds like Austin Healey.   

My biggest concern is Burns, coming off one of the all-time bad seasons by a Rugby player, and he gets the 10 jumper against the ABs.  Not exactly an Einstein-like decision.  We all know the excuses about his feeling confused, confounded, or emotionally shriveled due to leaving Gloucester, but this  is not the man-of-steel type we want in the pivot.  Especially in Eden Park.  

Heck, I would drag Jonny out for one more run in the sun for Queen and country - at least he could tackle Nonu into the ground.  OK, forget Jonny, I'd put Rob Andrew out there.  

Stewie put Lee Dickson on the bench for cover at 9 and he just got off the plane.  Stewie likes playing people out of position, so why not put Courtney Lawes in the pivot.  At least he can tackle and run forward.  He has a slick off load as well............Wait a moment!  This rant is a thing of beauty!  Courtney Lawes for out half!  Tackle this, Cruden.......

Some thoughts on key battles?

1: Scrum: Unsure. Would be surprised if this goes to England. Bit concerned about the quality of our front row. Woodcock is aging and Coles as yet to show he's world class as a scrummager (He's from my club, Poneke, so I'm a big fan -  but you have to be honest in your assessment).

2: Lineout: Wouldn't be surprised if this goes NZ's way. We have three genuine lineout threats (Retallic, Whitelock and Kaino), the issue is going to be it's first up.

3: Maul: England. Just a bigger part of the game up north. NZ should be able to counter though.

4: Ruck: Could be interesting. A lot will depend on the referee. I think the teams will be aiming for different things, so it's a hard call. NZ should come out on top. Having said that if McCaw goes of injured we don't have a back up 7 so we could be in real problems.

Kicking game: My guess is NZ has an advantage here. There are at least 4 genuine kickers on the field for NZ (Cruden, Dagg, B Smith and Jane), add to that that A Smith, Nonu and C Smith all have a kicking game of some description and it makes it hard for England to dominate. England are more limited in this respect. The wings and centres are runners. I'd look for NZ to get field position through kicking, use it as an attacking weapon and to isolate the English kickers.

The running game 1: Backs. It's pretty even. NZ has quick clearance and good decision makers. The issue's for NZ area lack of a strike runner outside of Nonu, and an aging C Smith (has he lost a yard of pace). The loss of Savea and Piatau to injuries and Ranger and Gear overseas is an issue in terms of our depth. I wouldn't be surprised if Fekitoa plays at some point. England on the other hand look to have some good steppers and plenty of pace and could have the edge if they create space. Eastmond-Tuilagi could be the key for them. The big question for me is their game management and options.

The running game 2: Forwards. I think England will have the advantage in close (pick and go). NZ will look to mix it up and go with more width as the game goes on. This is usually New Zealand's big advantage over everyone. Skilled forwards playing out in the backs. Read is a huge loss. Not just his positioning, timing and athleticism but his ability to put others away. I think this is an area England will have worked hard closing down through defence at the ruck, close to the ruck and linespeed on defence.

doctor_grey wrote:My biggest concern is Burns, coming off one of the all-time bad seasons by a Rugby player, and he gets the 10 jumper against the ABs.......

His brother Billy is also out in New Zealand with England at the JWC. He went well yesterday against Australia, so I'm hoping a bit of sibling rivalry or support might help Freddie click. I know it's a longshot.

I hope we keep fifteen men on the pitch the whole game. Haskell saw quite a few yellows when he was playing in NZ, and was carded in both matches against Stade. They were more like professional foul penalties than mindless indiscipline, but I don't think we'll do much if we are down to 14 against the All Blacks.

I seem to recall Yarde doing some blocking when he played in the Autumn, so I hope that's not still part of his game. Owens doesn't like that when he sees it. Shame we haven't got the welsh burr of the Vunipola brothers on the pitch to make Owens feel at home. Eastmond has lost his rag a bit at club level but you'd hope he knows he can't afford to do that for his country.

I do hope Tuilagi doesn't get injured. He's going to be a marked man and hasn't taken much punishment since coming back. Not only will it leave us with a very odd looking backline on the day, it won't be good for the man himself to get crocked again in the run up to the World Cup.

Hopefully Care hasnt just kicked off another series of dwarf and ferry jumping episodes again, his apparent injury completely self inflicted where he kicked a ball awkwardly and fell on his shoulder...whats that about?

Taylorman wrote:Hopefully Care hasnt just kicked off another series of dwarf and ferry jumping episodes again, his apparent injury completely self inflicted where he kicked a ball awkwardly and fell on his shoulder...whats that about?

I seem to remember Carlos Spencer injured himself in training at the 1999 World Cup, and didn't play a match. It happens. Owen Farrell tripping over a cable minutes before the Aviva final is more bizarre. It's not clear if it was a Sky TV cable or one for the fireworks. Reminded me of Glenn McGrath stepping on a cricket ball and helping England win the Ashes.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Hopefully Care hasnt just kicked off another series of dwarf and ferry jumping episodes again, his apparent injury completely self inflicted where he kicked a ball awkwardly and fell on his shoulder...whats that about?

I seem to remember Carlos Spencer injured himself in training at the 1999 World Cup, and didn't play a match. It happens. Own Farrell tripping over a cable minutes before the Aviva final is more bizarre. It's not clear if it was a Sky TV cable or one for the fireworks. Reminded me of Glenn McGrath stepping on a cricket ball and helping England win the Ashes.

yes Carter usually pulls up in training and a couple of years ago Johan Goosen of the Cheetahs put himself out for the season! from a badly timed goal kick in practice

So... here we are. Where is everyone?

Best of luck to both sides.     

come on england, try not to lose by more than 10!

Been waiting for hours - I'm in roughly the same time zone.

Great bust by Robshaw... straight through!

Good start by us

haskell could of be in there, should of been a yellow to nonu

Great break by Robshaw. Nonu is a very lucky boy there!

couple of errors from owens going against england already

Never a knock on

Jeas. Feick sake.. Gotta take these chances

may you donut