Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

geoff998rugby wrote:Whoa I have to say I find the criticism of Wilson and Caves contract as really bizarre and wrong headed.

As I illustrated we have 1 top backrower and 2 of Pro12 quality.
We have no opportunity to sign a NIQ player next year and you want question giving a contract to one of the 2 players who is of Pro12 standard.

The answer to us only have 3 backrowers of any acceptable standard is to get rid of one of them !
Sure he is in decline but we need to strengthen the squad not weaken it.
He will no longer be on top money.
Will he be our first choice 8 next year - probably but that is because Humphreys/Anscombe gave Williams an extension and signed Ludik not a top backrower - that is where the blame lies.

As for Cave he may be just short of international class but he remains our top 13 and he has shown so this year. To be honest he has been messed around something rotten this year to accomodate Payne. He organises our defence better than anyone else and he makes the younger lads ticked. Also the criticism of him and Bowe is unfair given the lack of decent ball from 9, and sometimes 10, for much of this year. Add to that a selection policy in the centre that can at best be described as bizarre and I would describe as a joke - how many combination have we tried ?
Also Marshall, Olding, McCloskey have no experience at 13 - again the solution is get rid of our most experienced 13 !  

Ulster problems are attracting players not money - Cave and Wilson resigning is not stopping anybody being signed.

The last thing we need to do is get rid of a couple of experienced heads - talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water !!

Geoff I'm not blaming Wilson for signing a contract. I'm merely saying there is a major deterioration in his play this season. If that continues and as you allude to he is our first choice 8 then we are up sh1t creek in truth. We haven't looked at any of the young guys at 13. We don't know what they can do. I know exactly what Cave offers and to a slightly lesser extent Payne as well and in truth neither is good enough against the top team IMO.

Pints are on Cornerflag/Esportiff - their profits must be soaring these days....

I agree re Wilson but the reality is without any NIQ signings we would have been mad not to resign him given the only decent options in the backrow are Henry, Henderson and Diack and we may not be allowed to play Henderson in the backrow that much.

Yes we should look at some of the young lads at 13 but by the same token to ditch out most establsihed 13 before they prove themselves would be equally mad.

Strength in depth is needed and money is not a major constraint.

CJ Stander - thats the guy for us. We should try and poach him or Copeland from Munster.

If we poach Jordi Murphy, CJ Stander and Copeland that should fix up the backrow problems, hope Munster and Leinster don't mind. Sure they own us a favour for Boss and Dougal.
Connacht owe us a few favours as well Heenan in return?

It would be good to get a list of IQ backrows that are out of contract at the end of the season

Munster

Barry O'Mahony, Sean Dougall,Dave O'Callaghan,Paddy Butler,Shane Buckley

Leinster

Dominic Ryan, Jordi Murphy, Kevin McLaughlin

Not 100% sure this is correct but gives you an idea

Geoff - You have your views and I have mine, fair enough

However on the following you totally misunderstand what was written:

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:While the whole 'justice for Cave' sideshow is being played out, there are calls for swapping some far more talented Centres for some journeymen backrows. I don't want to see Cave go either but if Ulster are in danger of losing a Test class fullback AND a Test class centre in order to keep him then I don't consider that good value for money.  

To call Cave a journeyman is out of order.
Payne is a test class centre ? - really ? he has played one unspectacular game - not proven.
If Payne goes it would not be for money reason so the point is false anyway

I and NOT calling Cave a journeyman. I am responding to the speculation that Nucifora may offer a swap deal involving Olding, Marshall or McCloskey (at least two of whom are Test class) for some journeyman backrow(s). The implication is that Ulster have an abundance of centres and as Cave is nailed on to stay so it has to be someone else to go. In the past you have said that Ulster need all the centres they have and I agree with you.
Neither am I calling Payne a Test class Centre - but I do think he is a "Test class Fullback" and plays to that standard for Ulster. If the three year vote of confidence given to Cave results in Ulster losing their best ever fullback then that is a high price to pay.

The Great Aukster wrote:I am responding to the speculation that Nucifora may offer a swap deal involving Olding, Marshall or McCloskey (at least two of whom are Test class) for some journeyman backrow(s). The implication is that Ulster have an abundance of centres and as Cave is nailed on to stay so it has to be someone else to go. In the past you have said that Ulster need all the centres they have and I agree with you.
Neither am I calling Payne a Test class Centre - but I do think he is a "Test class Fullback" and plays to that standard for Ulster. If the three year vote of confidence given to Cave results in Ulster losing their best ever fullback then that is a high price to pay.

That speculation is bogus - Olding, Marshall and MCCloskey will all be Ulster players next year.
Payne is a test class 15 I totally agree
It is not an either/or with Cave or Payne.
If Payne leaves it have nothing to do with Cave getting a contract.

Well if Payne is happy to play fullback then Cave playing 13 would be no odds for him and we don't need to have signed Ludik- if he's not happy playing full back and won't play there we've effectively lost him as a fullback already.

Great Aukster we clearly will have to disagree on the merits of Payne and Cave at 13 but at the same time there are some facts

Cave hasn't been guaranteed he is first choice 13
Wilson was never the third best paid player at the club
Cave is not on a 'test level' salary,by which I assume you mean Central Contract levels

Notch that is the problem is Payne happy to play 15????

I would argue Payne, Cave, Marshall, Olding, McCloskey is simply too many good players for two spots. Something has to give there

It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract. He is a good player but there are better players coming through. Even Sam Arnold looks like another big talent.

rodders wrote:CJ Stander - thats the guy for us. We should try and poach him or Copeland from Munster.

As a Munster fan I wouldn't mind. We have Copeland and Jack O'Donoghue and Butler to fill in. No point in a province having loads of talent in one area only to be badly lacking in another area

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract. He is a good player but there are better players coming through. Even Sam Arnold looks like another big talent.

rodders wrote:CJ Stander - thats the guy for us. We should try and poach him or Copeland from Munster.

As a Munster fan I wouldn't mind. We have Copeland and Jack O'Donoghue and Butler to fill in. No point in a province having loads of talent in one area only to be badly lacking in another area

So we should get rid of our only experienced 13 because we have a talent youngster who has yet to play 1 second of 1st team rugby.
Sorry that is drivel.

Copeland and Stander are both contracted for next year they are not available

Standulstermen wrote:I would argue Payne, Cave, Marshall, Olding, McCloskey is simply too many good players for two spots. Something has to give there

If our best 15 played 15 there would not be an issue

In what way was it a mistake signing Cave on a new contract? Cave is our best 13, and will remain so until one of Olding, McCloskey, Marshall play themselves into the shirt, or Payne demonstrates that he's the better player in that position. What a waste of a very talented fullback that would be....
So Ulster offload Cave, and then what? Payne who isn't as good? One of the other three who have yet to prove themselves? Should players not earn their starting place?
If Cave goes then who is second choice to whoever gets the starting shirt?

Getting rid of Cave makes about as much sense as converting an exceptional fullback to an average outside centre, and as a consequence miss out on strengthening a back row with little depth.

geoff998rugby wrote:Great Aukster we clearly will have to disagree on the merits of Payne and Cave at 13 but at the same time there are some facts

Cave hasn't been guaranteed he is first choice 13
Wilson was never the third best paid player at the club
Cave is not on a 'test level' salary,by which I assume you mean Central Contract levels

Notch that is the problem is Payne happy to play 15????

I think we agree on the merits of Payne at 13 (or rather the lack of) and we're not that far off agreement on Cave at 13, but you're happier with DC than I am. I also agree that no one is guaranteed a start, however if a case has to be strongly made to pay more for someone than a rival, then that coach/DoR will be trying to get their money's worth at every opportunity so close calls will go one way. AFAIK the contract is made up of three elements, UR,CC, and who owns player rights - it's the UR bit I was referring to. Supposedly Wilson took a cut to come back as Saints wanted to keep him, but that was still a significant sum.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I would argue Payne, Cave, Marshall, Olding, McCloskey is simply too many good players for two spots. Something has to give there

If our best 15 played 15 there would not be an issue

True but I'm still of the mindset our best 13 is our best 13 because no one else other than our best 15 has been tried there. That said I agree with your statement even if our current coach, our future director of rugby and the national team coach disagree

geoff999rugby wrote:

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract. He is a good player but there are better players coming through. Even Sam Arnold looks like another big talent.

rodders wrote:CJ Stander - thats the guy for us. We should try and poach him or Copeland from Munster.

As a Munster fan I wouldn't mind. We have Copeland and Jack O'Donoghue and Butler to fill in. No point in a province having loads of talent in one area only to be badly lacking in another area

So we should get rid of our only experienced 13 because we have a talent youngster who has yet to play 1 second of 1st team rugby.
Sorry that is drivel.

Copeland and Stander are both contracted for next year they are not available

At least read what I say before you call it drivel lol

As for Cave. What might happen now is another player leaving instead as Farrell did.

I also think ulster fans are being far too quick to write off Payne.

There isn't a chance that CJ will leave Munster. He has said in interview recently (around the time when JJ was heading off to Northampton) and he wanted to stay at Munster for the rest of his career and become a legend like Doug Howlett. He is very settled in Munster (its rural nature suits him coming from a farming (dairying) background. He has become friendly with some farmer and goes out to his farm a bit. As well as that, his wife is a swimmer and trains in the 50m pool in UL where the Irish swimming high performance unit is based so she has access to coaches etc.

The Standers are well settled in Limerick.

I'd imagine Pau will be an attractive club in France for a few of the younger Munster players who might want to get more gametime. Pau is coached by Simon Mannix and James Coughlan is there. It looks like they will be playing Top 14 next season. Biarritz with EOS are 2nd in the league.

profitius wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract. He is a good player but there are better players coming through. Even Sam Arnold looks like another big talent.

rodders wrote:CJ Stander - thats the guy for us. We should try and poach him or Copeland from Munster.

As a Munster fan I wouldn't mind. We have Copeland and Jack O'Donoghue and Butler to fill in. No point in a province having loads of talent in one area only to be badly lacking in another area

So we should get rid of our only experienced 13 because we have a talent youngster who has yet to play 1 second of 1st team rugby.
Sorry that is drivel.

Copeland and Stander are both contracted for next year they are not available

At least read what I say before you call it drivel lol

As for Cave. What might happen now is another player leaving instead as Farrell did.

I also think ulster fans are being far too quick to write off Payne.

Payne should never have been switched to 13. Not when he's such a talent at fullback, and not when it meant losing out on a much need signing for our back row.

Maybe it only makes sense to the IRFU...

Munchkin wrote:Payne should never have been switched to 13. Not when he's such a talent at fullback, and not when it meant losing out on a much need signing for our back row.

Maybe it only makes sense to the IRFU...

Agree Munchkin about Payne to 15 but not so sure about blocking the backrow.

The IRFU directives did not allow Ulster to re-sign Wannenburg and they had to then sign Williams. Since then the IRFU have relaxed regarding contract extension but there still seems to be some directives about what positions NIQs fill and especially not allowing more than one in the same area of the team, so would Ulster have ever been allowed to sign another NIQ backrow anyway?

If that were the case then the Ludik signing makes more sense. Ulster already have NIQs in the front row, at lock and backrow. They also have one at halfback, and they don't need a centre, so perhaps the only signing they were allowed to make was for the back three?

After it was decided that neither D'Arcy nor McIlwaine were good enough, that left Payne and er ... Andrew covering one of the most influential positions on the pitch. Even if Payne had been playing 15 there was effectively less cover than at backrow. Ludik can play in any of the outside back positions and wouldn't be called up during International windows - so from a coaches perspective he was a reasonable signing.

The directives were put in place to force provinces to produce their own talent, but provinces try to do this naturally anyway so simply having some rules weren't and aren't having the desired effect. The IRFU needs to look closely at how young players are handled and manage the high level exposure they get. At the moment it is often a matter of luck or rather bad luck for senior players getting injured that gives young players their big chance. If a young player happens to be unlucky years can pass before he gets high level development.

The IRFU should consider offering development contracts to academy players rather than leave these in control of the provinces. In that way if a speight of injuries in a particular position hit one province and players are not getting enough development time at their home province they can be moved to help fill the void. Even if there are no injuries there should be a use it or lose it policy regarding young talent and if one province isn't giving their guys enough time then another province should be allowed to offer them time instead.

Profitius you said giving Cave a contract was a mistake and then mention a young lad who is complete irrelevant to where we are at the moment.
Not signing an established player when we have no one else in the squad established in that position triggers my drivelometer  

As I said earlier Marshall, Olding and McCloskey will all be Ulster players next year - 100% guaranteed. Marshall and Olding have already been signed up for next year. McCloskey is in a development contract and will be given, and accept, a full contract. He has no interest in leaving.

No one is writing Payne off, if I give that impression I do not intend to.
However he should prove himself, on merit, to be the best 13 at Provincial and International level. To my mind he has done neither yet.

There are no positional constraints with respect to signing NIQ players - that was resisted by the Provinces and was droped. The compromise was the Provinces agreed to drop from 5 to 4 NIQ starting next year.
We could have signed a NIQ backrower last year - we chose not to do so.

The fact remains if Payne had stayed at 15 we would have signed a backrower not Ludik and would be in a much better position.
Someone mentioned Farrell well it could be reasonably speculated that he left because he could see that 12-13 was getting too crowded with Payne moving there as well.
if Payne had stayed at 15 not only would we have a top class 15 we could have retained Farrell as well.
As to cover at 15 well we lost a player (Nelson) for 2 years, prior to this year, because Anscombe is an arse  

The knock on effects of this change of position have had a really negative effect on Ulster rugby.

“We are four players deep in every position with a few overlaps, so it’s going to be very very competitive.” That competition for places certainly isn’t something Farrell fears. In fact, the opposite is neared the truth. “There are so many players in the same position who are of a similar age,” continued the former Schools’ Cup winner. “There all quite young and we are all good friends. We train with each other and set our own targets and try and beat each others targets. It does spur you on definitely.”

http://ulsterherald.com/2013/08/11/farrell-eager-to-impress-ulster-rugby-boss/

Farrell wasn't complaining about the competition for places so why would having Payne at 13 make any difference?

He was given a few runs and didn't impress, allowing McCloskey to come in and he did impress. If anyone forced CF to jump ship it was McCloskey, who has a directly comparative game and on those showings was definitely better.

Farrell was offered a contract the equal of what he is getting in France he chose to leave. Ulster wanted to keep him.

Actions speak louder than words

From the Irish Times

'Doak also stated that Jared Payne and Iain Henderson are unlikely to return ahead of the final European matches away to champions Toulon and home to Leicester, making both a doubt for the Six Nations.

Nick Williams, Chris Henry and Andrew Trimble are also some way off returning to action.'

That implies Payne and Henderson should be fit for Treviso on the 13th Feb
The others are further away.
To be honest I would not be surprised if we dont see Williams again by the look of him the pork pie business has seen a recent upturn in sales !

Anyone being watching our ex props in the Aviva.

Tom Court has been absolutely awful - seems to have gone as a player - we dodged a bullit there.

Afoa also has not impressed and is no way justifying his salary.
Given what we was on with us, let alone Gloucester, another one we are well rid of.

geoff998rugby wrote:Anyone being watching our ex props in the Aviva.

Tom Court has been absolutely awful - seems to have gone as a player - we dodged a bullit there.

Afoa also has not impressed and is no way justifying his salary.
Given what we was on with us, let alone Gloucester, another one we are well rid of.

Didn't Afoa have a cronic problem, I think in his back? As was stated at an Ulster question session that he was David Humphreys problem now. He certainly hasn't shown any of the form he showed for us when at his best. I don't usually partake in schadenfreude but as far as Humphreys and Afoa are concerned it do. Just for a little while.

geoff998rugby wrote:Anyone being watching our ex props in the Aviva.

Tom Court has been absolutely awful - seems to have gone as a player - we dodged a bullit there.

Afoa also has not impressed and is no way justifying his salary.
Given what we was on with us, let alone Gloucester, another one we are well rid of.

I wonder if either of those players are looking back at us and thinking the same.

Looks like Munster dodged a bullet then with Williams Ulster messed up bigtime letting BJ go - he is a great old warrior for Munster.

Ulster must have some great contacts in South Africa to be able to locate another CJ Stander type player/situation with Johann and Gert Smal (Les Kiss is a good pal of Gerts who is now a director of rugby with Western Force and sent Pat Howard up to Munster on loan). Jean de Villiers recommended Howard to Munster.

I don't think any players who have a half a chance of making it at their own province (the ones you want) will move to another province as it would mean that they will probably never move back to their old province (saying that, I hear rumours that Leinster want Andrew Conway back). Much easier to play abroad and then come back when they make it.

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract.

I agree.

Sin é wrote:Ulster messed up bigtime letting BJ go - he is a great old warrior for Munster.

They had no option - IRFU directives

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ulster messed up bigtime letting BJ go - he is a great old warrior for Munster.

They had no option - IRFU directives

Nope. Botha verbably agreed a contract and then came back asking for more - Humphreys told him to take a hike

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract.  

I agree.

I dont. Complete and utter madness.
Lets cripple a team that lacks depth by reducing depth in the one area we are strong

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ulster messed up bigtime letting BJ go - he is a great old warrior for Munster.

They had no option - IRFU directives

Ulster got a cheaper Afoa instead. False economy on Humphreys part.

With BJ, Munster have a player and a coach.

Afoa wasn't cheaper

In Afoa's first year we thought changing Botha for him was a great bit of business, Afoa was the better player.
Second and third years were different,

Wiehahn Herbst is 26 and we are hopefully going to get him through his prime, Botha is 35, so right now i'd rather have Herbst.

so overall Botha moving to Munster wasn't that bad, he did bring our props on when he was here, something I don't think Afoa did.

Agre with all of that.
Afoa in his first year was better than Botha but not afterwards.
Botha did indeed prove valueable as a coach in a way Afoa did not

Botha could only be offered a one year deal at Ulster because of the directives for re-signing existing players. He got an initial two year deal at Munster.

The Great Aukster wrote:Botha could only be offered a one year deal at Ulster because of the directives for re-signing existing players. He got an initial two year deal at Munster.

Partially true.

He had a verbal agreement with Humphreys for 1 year.
Munster offered him more money.
Botha said to Humphreys match it and I'll stay
Humphreys said no.

That indicates that Botha was prepared to sign for 1 year for Ulster rather than 2 years for Munster if Ulster matched Munsters cash offer.
Sounds a bit strange but maybe he was happy here

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Botha could only be offered a one year deal at Ulster because of the directives for re-signing existing players. He got an initial two year deal at Munster.

Partially true.

He had a verbal agreement with Humphreys for 1 year.
Munster offered him more money.
Botha said to Humphreys match it and I'll stay
Humphreys said no.

That indicates that Botha was prepared to sign for 1 year for Ulster rather than 2 years for Munster if Ulster matched Munsters cash offer.
Sounds a bit strange but maybe he was happy here

The rule is that Provinces cannot compete with each other money wise. BJ got an offer from a French club, not Munster. After Humphreys told him to move on, Munster could then come in with an offer which he took.

BJ is on his 2nd 2-year contract with Munster (and looking to stay).

BJ was very happy at Ulster from what I can gather (though I think he was a bit niffed by how Humphreys handled him). Munster always acknowledges BJ's contribution to coaching the scrum. He seems to be the one in charge with Fla overseeing it and in fairness to him, we have come from 0 to 80 very quickly with some very good young props.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Botha could only be offered a one year deal at Ulster because of the directives for re-signing existing players. He got an initial two year deal at Munster.

Partially true.

He had a verbal agreement with Humphreys for 1 year.
Munster offered him more money.
Botha said to Humphreys match it and I'll stay
Humphreys said no.

That indicates that Botha was prepared to sign for 1 year for Ulster rather than 2 years for Munster if Ulster matched Munsters cash offer.
Sounds a bit strange but maybe he was happy here

Which part isn't true?

Can't see how it could possibly be a mistake to resign Cave. We're not going to get a better Irish 13 to replace him and we're not going to waste another NIQ spot in the back line (we're already wasting one). If Payne or one of the 12s works out as a 13 long term he is a brilliant player to have covering and right now he is a capable first choice. I hope by the end of his contract he's not first choice but while like Wilson I see his limitations if we are relying only on him, he's valuable to the squad in terms of having experienced strength in depth.

It's many of the same arguments I heard when the likes of Willie Faloon left and how we could use him. The thought of Luke Marshall or Stuart McCloskey moving to 13 is appealing in terms of getting our best players on the pitch but they haven't shown they can play there and 13 is a more tricky channel to defend, its a specialist role and we need two guys in the squad who are specialists. It should be tried, Toulon away would be an ideal time to see how Luke Marshall deals with defending the 13 channel outside Olding.

Getting rid of players who are just good and then complaining about strength in depth would be crazy. I don't foresee an Ulster squad so strong it won't be able to use Cave being second choice within the next three years not, unfortunately, can I see a squad that couldn't use Wilson as cover in the same way.

profitius wrote:

I also think ulster fans are being far too quick to write off Payne.

I'm certainly not writing him off, I think he is an exceptional player and I want him to stay with Ulster. I want him to play in his best position though, where he has consistently proved himself to be a fantastic player, and where he has looked far more comfortable.

Agree with you notch. We need to see what our young guys can do at 13 and let's give them a chance. Not just a game here or there.

On Botha I think both sides got what they needed out of the deal. Ulster got a much better player who unfortunately had his head elsewhere after year one. Munster basically solidified their glaring weakness and as Sin mentioned brought in someone who could coach their young guys.

I always recall BJ was a cool head on the field for us. Seemed less so with Munster but I am not best placed to comment there, sin and co will know more. In terms of our props, bar Ryan and it seems Murphy I'm delighted with our recruitment. Herbst I really like, Black has proved a welcome addition and as much as some may forget without Afoa we don't make the HEC final. He may not have had his heart in ulster in a way the others did but I recall the HEC 1/4 last year and I felt he left everything out there for us. Ulster legend, no, but definitely someone who left it on the field. BJ and Afoa in the same bracket for me, several rungs below Pienaar and Muller. 'Where for art thou, Johann??!'

geoff998rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract.  

I agree.

I dont. Complete and utter madness.
Lets cripple a team that lacks depth by reducing depth in the one area we are strong  

Olding, Marshall, McCloskey and Payne all give us enough depth and quality in the centre, with Bowe, Trimble and Allen all capable of stepping in too. If we'd have retained Whitten and/or Farrell we'd be in a stronger position across the backs than we are now. Ludik, Payne, Nelson, gilroy give us cover at the back and we have plenty of depth on the wings.

Cave isn't prepared to cover other positions and compains if he doesn't start, so retaining him means we risk losing other players which isn't going to help our depth.

Deleted

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Botha could only be offered a one year deal at Ulster because of the directives for re-signing existing players. He got an initial two year deal at Munster.

Partially true.

He had a verbal agreement with Humphreys for 1 year.
Munster offered him more money.
Botha said to Humphreys match it and I'll stay
Humphreys said no.

That indicates that Botha was prepared to sign for 1 year for Ulster rather than 2 years for Munster if Ulster matched Munsters cash offer.
Sounds a bit strange but maybe he was happy here

Which part isn't true?

Sorry badly worded - should said incomplete rather than partially true

Sin e is quite right a french club did offer him more money before Munster stepped in - I'd forgotten that.
Very interesting though that he is on his 2nd 2 year contract - Ulster have never been allowed an over 30's player to re-sign for more than 1 year. Maybe this is an IRFU compromise for the drop from 5 to 4 players.
If so re-sign Pienaer to the end of his days now !

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:It was a mistake signing Cave on a new contract.  

I agree.

I dont. Complete and utter madness.
Lets cripple a team that lacks depth by reducing depth in the one area we are strong  

Olding, Marshall, McCloskey and Payne all give us enough depth and quality in the centre, with Bowe, Trimble and Allen all capable of stepping in too. If we'd have retained Whitten and/or Farrell we'd be in a stronger position across the backs than we are now. Ludik, Payne, Nelson, gilroy give us cover at the back and we have plenty of depth on the wings.  

Cave isn't prepared to cover other positions and compains if he doesn't start, so retaining him means we risk losing other players which isn't going to help our depth.

Sticking with positions 12 and 13 only

The ship has sailed with respect to Trimble playing centre
Allen isn't good enough
We let Whitten go because we knew we had Spence coming through - you cant legislate for that.
Farrell chose to go
Playing Bowe at centre means losing one of your best wingers
Ludik is a nothing special as a centre
Payne is a better 15

All of the above are inferior centres to Cave (I accept some disagree re Payne)

However how you can say 'Cave isn't prepared to cover other positions' is beyond me. That is insulting to a player who had never made conditions on where he plays (unlike others). He has played at 12 as well. It is simple where he is best.

I would argue Ludik is any worse a centre than Cave. I think both are great options up to a certain level