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Aviva Premiership 2014/15 Preview

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Scrumpy
Bathman_in_London
AsLongAsBut100ofUs
Poorfour
rosbif
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beshocked
Jimpy
Knackeredknees
yappysnap
Welly
LondonTiger
ChequeredJersey
Chunky Norwich
formerly known as Sam
bluestonevedder
SirBurger
Geordie
Ozzy3213
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Post by Ozzy3213 Thu 07 Aug 2014, 11:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Here's my take on how this seasons runners and riders will fare in the Aviva Premiership.



Bath Rugby

After narrowly missing out on the play offs last season and also imploding in the Amlin Cup Final, Bath will be desperate to make the play offs this time around.  Sam Burgess is the big name signing, but questions remain about his transition from league, and what position he is likely to occupy, and until we actually see him on the pitch he will remain an unknown quantity.  What we do know that Bath have is a huge set of forwards, and a pacy, clever set of backs.  What they need to do is get them working as a cohesive unit, something which at times last season they failed to do.  If they get it right, they will be very tough to beat, but as we've seen in both the distant and recent past with Bath, the wheel can come of in spectacular fashion, leaving their fans dissappointed and the trophy cabinet bare.


One to watch:  Anthony Watson
Prediction: 3rd (will win the semi final, but lose in the big one at Twickenham)


Exeter Chiefs

The Chiefs will feel that they underachieved last season, based on the standard that they set themselves the season before.  What has to be remembered is that in reality they are still a very new Premiership outfit and will have ups and downs.  Recruitment this summer has been fairly low key, and I do worry with them that they may need a bit of an injection of fresh ideas to go with the great culture that Rob Baxter has built at the club, if they are going to kick on again, and I can see this season being fairly tough for them, although they should be too good to really get dragged into any dogfight at the wrong end of the table.


One to watch: Luke Cowan-Dickie
Prediction: 10th


Gloucester

After what was a sorry season last year there is a new Director of Rugby in place, as well as some big name signings as the club seek to return to the top half of the table this time around.  They will need a massive on field improvement as some of last seasons performances were absolutely dire, especially in the scrum where they took regular hammerings.  This has been addressed with the arrival of Richard Hibbard and John Afoa to bolster the front row, and you have to believe that those guys will bring about an improvement in fortune in that regard.  If their pack can step up, they have some exciting backs, which include new signing James Hook, and they could be a real test for any team this time around.


One to watch: Elliott Stooke
Prediction: 6th


Harlequins

After a dodgy start last year Quins did just enough to make the play offs, but were very much second best in their semi final against Saracens.  They have added Marland Yarde to their back line this time around, and have some very talented youngsters coming through the ranks.  Strangely they still don't seem to have adequately replaced Ollie Kohn in the second row, and will have to rely on the mobility oftheir pack rather than getting into real scraps, as they appear slightly underpowered up front.  They will be a fascinating watch, as they play an entertaining brand of rugby, but I just don't see them having quite enough forward power to drag themselves into the play offs this time around.


One to watch: Luke Wallace
Prediction: 5th


Leicester Tigers

Tigers will be smarting after missing out on a place in the final last year after that epic semi against fierce rivals Northampton Saints.  They have recruited well, and look to be stronger this season.  They will of course be one of the better packs, as although not always the biggest, they are generally the smartest and seem to find a way of negating their opponents strength.  What will be the test for them is whether they can get their back line really playing.  The key man for them may actually be Geordan Murphy, and if he can get the talent they have from 9 to 15 working in harmony then they will be a real force this season.


One to watch: Freddie Burns
Prediction: 1st (Champions after winning the play offs)


London Irish

New training facilities, a strengthening of the backroom staff and some additions in the pack should see an improved level of performance from Irish this season.  Losing Yarde and O'Connor potentially weakens the back line, but with a better platform from the forwards should give the guys who are there a chance to shine.  With a tough start on paper Irish will need to hit the ground running and pick up some points against the big guns if they are to avoid being in a 3rd successive relegation scrap.  Having said that, the best performances from Irish last year were against Tigers, Sarries, Saints and Quins, so they should take some confidence from that and a good start could see them surprise one or two people this time around.


One to watch: Gerard Ellis
Prediction: 8th


London Welsh

Welsh did fantastically well to gain promotion by beating Bristol, and have gone out since on a huge recruitment drive.  The likes of Piri Weepu, Dean Schofield and Olly Barkley will bring lots of experience, but there has to be question marks over how quickly you can integrate 25 new signings into a cohesive unit.  They will need to invoke the same sort of team ethos that Exeter had when they came up if they are to make a better fist of things this time.  Ultimately I think they will be a better side than when they were promoted last, but I don't think they'll have enough to stay up this time either.


One to watch: Olly Barkley
Prediction: 12th (Relegated)



Newcastle Falcons

Much is being made of the new 4G pitch at Kingston Park and the potential for a change in style from Falcons, but unless they sign a new 10 who plays a more expansive game, that could all be just a dream for their fans.  They will of course be well organised, as any team coached by Dean Richards is, and have bolstered their squad with some shrewd signings, but they lack the quality of some of the other squads, although they have plenty of players with what appears to be huge potential.  This, I think will be another season of just scraping through and more quality will need to be brought in next summer if they are to kick on and start climbing the table.


One to watch: Alessana Tuilagi
Prediction: 11th


Northampton Saints

The Champions have been pretty quiet in terms of signings this summer, but have a strong squad already and haven't lost anyone either. They also have some talented youngsters coming through and will be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.  Much will again rest on Stephen Myler putting their powerful pack in the right areas, where the likes of North and Foden will surely finish the chances they create. Whilst I 'm not sure they have the depth to fight successfully in the Premiership and the Champions Cup, I think they will want to retain their title, and will reach the play offs comfortably.


One to watch: Alex Waller
Prediction: 2nd (Losing semi finalists)


Sale Sharks

Sale were the surprise package last season, but there have been a few guys who were pretty key to that who have left over the summer.  They have made some decent signings, and I can see Nathan Hines having a big influence there.  It is unlikely that Steve Diamond is going to change the formula which served them so well last year, and they will be a pack that is niggly and difficult to play against, with the backs only really coming in to things when they get anywhere near to the try line.  I can see another season of being comfortably mid table for Sale.


One to watch: Danny Cipriani
Prediction: 7th


Saracens


Sarries will be smarting after losing 2 finals last season, and will be desperate for success this time around.  They have a big squad, and plenty of quality throughout it, but I wonder who much going into battle without their leader Steve Borthwick will affect them.   They also need to continue to evolve their style of play, which they have been doing over the past 18 months, in order to keep teams from working them out.  They will undoubtedly be at the top end of the table, but I can see their European obsession impacting a little more on their Premiership aspirations this time around and I don't think a home semi final is a given this time around.


One to watch: Will Fraser
Prediction: 4th (Losing semi finalists)


Wasps


It was a bit of a hit and miss season last time around for Wasps, and you were never quite sure which Wasps side would turn up.  They have some undoubted quality in their squad, but at times just don't look like a team with much of a plan.  They seem to be heavily reliant on individual bits of brilliance to win games rather than a collective effort and this in turn means they are inconsistent.  If they want to improve on last seasons league placing they will need to find this consistency, but I'm not sure that they will, ad can see another mid table finish this time around, but in a slightly lower position than last year.


One to watch: Christian Wade
Prediction: 9th
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Post by Welly Mon 01 Sep 2014, 3:29 pm

Harlequins director of rugby Conor O'Shea:
"We won't get carried away but I'd rather be in our position than Leicester's. It was an incredible ask for them [as so many of their players are at the World Cup].

 Pretty much goes against your argument.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Mon 01 Sep 2014, 3:53 pm

Such a gent, COS
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Post by Poorfour Mon 01 Sep 2014, 4:02 pm

beshocked wrote:
4 players wasn't typical of the league. It was one of the lowest.

Against Saracens you were missing 2 players? You had your key men - Brown,Evans,Care,Marler and Robshaw - unless of course you think they are insignificant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9606233.stm - Against Leicester you had most of your key players - even the godlike Lowe and Kohn who you seem to say were two of your most valuable players.

Chequeredjersey you talk about ridiculous lists - every team gets injuries. London Irish and Wasps had quite a few last season but I don't hear them being mentioned.

I agree depth is a problem for Quins - instead of blaming injuries - improve strength in dpeth.

So, once again, injuries don't count? 4 fit players went to the RWC. 7 more were injured within a couple of weeks of the start of the season. An injured player is just as unavailable to the club as someone at the RWC. And if losing 5 players (including Care) to RWC squads was one of the lowest, please tell me who were higher.

I never said that those players were insignificant, just that they didn't constitute "all our key players" as you claimed. The Leicester game was probably a better indicator of where our season was at that point. All of the following would have been ahead of the starting XV in that game if fully fit and/or not at the RWC: Williams, Monye, Care, Lambert, Johnston (who was, to be fair, on the bench but only just back from the RWC), Fa'asavalu, Skinner, Trayfoot, Guest, Easter. Those last 5 are all back row players.

Also trying to be balanced, the Leicester side that was put out was a long way from their first XV, but it included experienced internationals like Tait, Tuilagi, Chuter and White, and seasoned players like Staunton, Morris and Salvi.

I'm not "blaming injuries". It's not as if they could have won more games during the first half of the season had they had fewer injuries, is it? I'm only saying that it's inaccurate or just plain trolling to suggest that Quins weren't fairly seriously depleted at that point in time.

Last season was a little bit different. Out of interest, who would Sarries field if they had their 4 most senior locks and 5 most senior centres all injured at the same time?
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Post by Heaf Mon 01 Sep 2014, 4:56 pm

Jimpy wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:So it doesn't help to win 11 in a row when every other team is depleted? In the 2nd half of the season when everyone else got their players back you won 6, drew 1 and lost 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16245669

Didn't like a too depleted Quins to me -all your key players are there.

Quins didn't miss many players compared to most sides.

The side hit the hardest and who had the biggest excuse were Tigers.

I find it ridiculous how often Quins fans make excuses about injuries. You're generally no worse than most teams.

To take points one by one:
- The RWC was only the first 6 games of the season; our winning streak continued 5 games beyond that, and the games we lost were concentrated in Dec/Jan/Feb (when we are historically rubbish) and at the end of the season (when a home playoff was already secured)
- "when every other team is depleted". So injuries don't count then? I've already said that we had 11 players out at one point during the RWC; I'm pretty sure Leicester were worst affected, but 13 players is not that much more than 11 when squad sizes are taken into account
- The game you've linked to is the Big Game, two months after the RWC. Still, we were missing Lowe (who despite the media love for Hopper is a far better player) and Kohn (a very big loss), and Williams was only fit enough for the bench against what looks a fairly complete Sarries 1xt XV. Not an excuse, and every winning streak has to end sometime, but it was not "all our key players".
- "didn't miss too many players" - we lost Easter, Johnston, Fa'asavalu and Vallejos to the RWC, which was less than Leicester but fairly typical for the league. We would have lost Care to the RWC too, but he got injured at the England training camp. We lost Skinner in the LDH, Guest a week or two afterwards, Matt Cairns to retirement, and Chris York (our last fit 8) got injured as well. Tom Williams and George Lowe were both injured for the early part of the season. That's 11 players including 7 starters.
- Tigers were hard hit, but we were, too - as I hope the above demonstrates
- Generally we aren't worse hit than most teams, but in the last few seasons we have had bad luck in terms of a bunch of injuries hitting the same position at the same time. In 2011-12, by the end of the RWC our back row was Trayfoot, Wallace, Robshaw - two academy players and a flanker playing at 8. We finished that season with 1 fit senior hooker (Gray) and Buchanan (fresh out of the academy) finished the AP Final. Last season, we had a point where we had 1 fit lock and 1 fit centre in the entire squad. Any team would struggle under those conditions.



4 players wasn't typical of the league. It was one of the lowest.

Against Saracens you were missing 2 players? You had your key men - Brown,Evans,Care,Marler and Robshaw - unless of course you think they are insignificant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9606233.stm - Against Leicester you had most of your key players - even the godlike Lowe and Kohn who you seem to say were two of your most valuable players.

Chequeredjersey you talk about ridiculous lists - every team gets injuries. London Irish and Wasps had quite a few last season but I don't hear them being mentioned.

I agree depth is a problem for Quins - instead of blaming injuries - improve strength in dpeth.

Probably because they were pump last season and the only way they were going to win much was if some old lady died and willed a win to them, the list of injuries was immaterial to their situation....

I'm not saying LI were great last season but I'm not sure how losing your top try scorer and top goal kicker at the beginning of the season can be called immaterial ... I wonder who died for them to beat Quins and Sarries?

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Post by beshocked Mon 01 Sep 2014, 5:03 pm

Well there's no point you moaning about injuries when teams had more absentees than yourself.

You would think from your comments that other teams didn't have injuries on top of their RWC call ups. As for how many from other teams were missing I cannot remember - I think Leicester around 13. Saracens 8 or 9. Saints similar.

Basically my main point was Quins benefitted most from the RWC. Leicester in contrast were the hardest hit. I feel that Quins got themselves in such a positive position because of the RWC.

How many games were the 4 locks injured and centres injured?

Well - Saracens played a 2nd string/3rd team vs Leicester at the end of the season - pretty respectable I would say.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/31614.php

Probably a 2nd row would have been Smith and Sheriff or Itoje (if you take out Borthwick,Botha,Kruis,Hargreaves). Coincidentally those players all played Leicester.

In the centres? Okay - let's take out Taylor,Bosch,Streather,Barritt and Farrell? If you talk about last season we had Tomkins too.

That would leave a centre partnership of Tompkins and Wyles.  Not ideal for Wyles but he's won an AP title at that position.


Heaf I think you won because of gutsy effort from your players, cliched but you wanted the win more than the Sarries players, bit of complacency in my opinion too, on the day you performed better, Sarries didn't perform to their potential.

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Post by Heaf Mon 01 Sep 2014, 5:20 pm

Beshocked I think you're right - fortunately no old ladies had to make the ultimate sacrifice as suggested by Jimpy Smile

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 01 Sep 2014, 7:51 pm

Irish at 8th is a little optomistic, I'd be very surprised if the finished above Wasps who look better in most departments.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Mon 01 Sep 2014, 9:16 pm

Sarries did indeed miss 8 players for the RWC. Points to anyone who can name all 8 plus their countries without cheating
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Post by SirBurger Mon 01 Sep 2014, 10:13 pm

Carlos Nieto - Italy
Jacques Burger - Namibia
Kelly Brown - Scotland
Richard Wigglesworth - England
Chris Wyles - USA
Kameli Ratuvou - Fiji
Michael Tagicakibau - Fiji

Not sure on Number 8...Matt Stevens?

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Post by ChequeredJersey Mon 01 Sep 2014, 10:26 pm

Argh, I missed Ratuvu, it's 9 then! Stevens was one, yep
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Post by Jimpy Tue 02 Sep 2014, 7:53 am

Heaf wrote:Beshocked I think you're right - fortunately no old ladies had to make the ultimate sacrifice as suggested by Jimpy Smile

How do you know?

Anyway, every dog has its day. Bar a couple of decent results, the overal season performance was poor by both teams' standards. I shall be at the LDH (on an LI ticket coincidentally) willing the Oirish on. Surely they can't be as bad this year...

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Post by Ozzy3213 Tue 02 Sep 2014, 8:20 am

We hope not Jimpy.  The infrastructure at the club has improved immeasurably and we should have a better pack out on the pitch.  If there is no improvement, I don't think Brian Smith will last too long as our Director of Rugby.  There are no excuses this year.
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Post by SirBurger Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:00 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:We hope not Jimpy.  The infrastructure at the club has improved immeasurably and we should have a better pack out on the pitch.  If there is no improvement, I don't think Brian Smith will last too long as our Director of Rugby.  There are no excuses this year.

It would be interesting to know what the board's thinking is on Brian and what targets they have set him. Personally, I think he has done a good job since his return, bar the first half of the 2012/13 season where we were truly abysmal. He turned our season around that year and made us tougher to beat last year. His selection is usually fairly spot on, compared to say Booth who frequently made some bizarre decisions. For me, as long as we finish on a points tally higher than last season he deserves another crack at the whip for 2015/16 when assumedly there will be even more investment in the club. I wonder though whether the club have internally set him a higher set of goals to reach than that.

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Post by Heaf Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:20 am

Jimpy wrote:
Heaf wrote:Beshocked I think you're right - fortunately no old ladies had to make the ultimate sacrifice as suggested by Jimpy Smile

How do you know?

Anyway, every dog has its day. Bar a couple of decent results, the overal season performance was poor by both teams' standards. I shall be at the LDH (on an LI ticket coincidentally) willing the Oirish on. Surely they can't be as bad this year...

I'm sure we would have heard if we'd been left it in a will Smile

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Post by Scrumpy Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:28 am

Richard Hibbard:

"I look at the league [Aviva Premiership] and I think it's the best league in the world,"

That's what we've (English) been saying for years Richard, thank you. thumbsup


Now get your hair cut you big pansy!
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Post by Geordie Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:31 am

Scrumpy wrote:Richard Hibbard:

"I look at the league [Aviva Premiership] and I think it's the best league in the world,"

That's what we've (English) been saying for years Richard, thank you.   thumbsup


Now get your hair cut you big pansy!

He couldnt very well say it was the worst...or "not bad but still a few notches behind the French league or the S15" could he??

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:36 am

It's certainly the best in the NH (entertainment/standard), not sure it trumps the S15

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Post by Scrumpy Tue 02 Sep 2014, 9:42 am

I find the S15 boring as it has little history and is played with different rules.

The Top14 is dull and the Pro12 is well, the Pro12!

AWJ is out of the 1st game for the Ospreys as he needs a Rest, sums that league up imo. Laugh
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Post by HongKongCherry Tue 02 Sep 2014, 12:33 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Richard Hibbard:

"I look at the league [Aviva Premiership] and I think it's the best league in the world,"

That's what we've (English) been saying for years Richard, thank you.   thumbsup


Now get your hair cut you big pansy!

I'm a little disappointed that he has escaped the usual milk challenge and still retains his hair. Whilst I'm too much of a coward to go near him with clippers, surely one of the fast backs could have got away with it
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Post by Ozzy3213 Sun 07 Sep 2014, 2:59 pm

So my initial prediction for the finishing table was this...

1. Leicester Tigers
2. Northampton Saints
3. Bath Rugby
4. Saracens
5. Harlequins
6. Gloucester
7. Sale Sharks
8. London Irish
9. Wasps
10. Exeter Chiefs
11. Newcastle Falcons
12. London Welsh

After 5 and half matches have been played this week, my revised prediction is....

1. Saracens
2. Northampton Saints
3. Leicester Tigers
4. Bath Rugby
5. Wasps
6. Harlequins
7. Sale Sharks
8. London Irish
9. Exeter Chiefs
10. Gloucester
11. Newcastle Falcons
12. London Welsh
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 07 Sep 2014, 3:09 pm

Mine....

1. Saracens
2. Northampton
3. Leicester
4. Bath
5. Wasps
6. Harlequins
7. Sale
8. Gloucester
9. Exeter
10. Falcons
11. Irish
12. Welsh

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Post by Scrumpy Sun 07 Sep 2014, 3:11 pm

Welsh are rubbish, I feel sorry for the likes of Wuzz and Brizzle both are well supported and deserve to be at the top table IMO.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 07 Sep 2014, 3:14 pm

Nobody deserves it imo, Welsh won the playoffs so are in the AP

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 07 Sep 2014, 6:13 pm

I'm confident we are gonna do a number on Sarries next week. Based on little other than optimism and hunch, but I think we have our anti-Sarries tactics sorted, we just have to a) hold up better in the scrum. B) don't lose our heads in the second half c) play the ref better in the second half d) hope the real Danny and Nev turn up

As I said, I may be a tad optimistic... But frankly out start this season has been no worse that it was last season at least, and there are still players to bring back in and the game plan usually takes a while to click. I am just glad we got the win
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Post by Scrumpy Sun 07 Sep 2014, 7:05 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nobody deserves it imo, Welsh won the playoffs so are in the AP

But very few of this welsh squad won it, also the attendance was a shambles, they really don't deserve to be there.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 07 Sep 2014, 7:26 pm

I disagree Scrumpy.

Welsh played the system and were deserved winners of the play offs. Bristol choked and were terrible in the final, despite shelling out the cash.

From experience, the championship is a tough league. Any team coming through it are deserving of a crack at the AP.

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Post by Scrumpy Sun 07 Sep 2014, 7:50 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I disagree Scrumpy.

Welsh played the system and were deserved winners of the play offs. Bristol choked and were terrible in the final, despite shelling out the cash.

From experience, the championship is a tough league. Any team coming through it are deserving of a crack at the AP.


I would have liked to have seen the lads who won promotion give it a crack!
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 07 Sep 2014, 8:10 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I disagree Scrumpy.

Welsh played the system and were deserved winners of the play offs. Bristol choked and were terrible in the final, despite shelling out the cash.

From experience, the championship is a tough league. Any team coming through it are deserving of a crack at the AP.


I would have liked to have seen the lads who won promotion give it a crack!

They needed more quality. I think 6 started today???

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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Sun 07 Sep 2014, 10:04 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I disagree Scrumpy.

Welsh played the system and were deserved winners of the play offs. Bristol choked and were terrible in the final, despite shelling out the cash.

From experience, the championship is a tough league. Any team coming through it are deserving of a crack at the AP.


I would have liked to have seen the lads who won promotion give it a crack!

They needed more quality. I think 6 started today???

Dunno if a comparison is worthy, but Exe's first Prem game featured 13 starters from the previous Championship season with, I think, 5 more on the bench. The other 2 starters had been signed from Bristol after the final, so it was an all championship team. Just 4 of those were on duty today, which makes me sad, but there are 4 more coming back from injury.

The bulk of the starting pack in that game, none with much previous elite experience, stayed till last season when 2 moved on and 2 retired through injury, and performed pretty well in Prem and HC.

Perhaps "quality" isn't necessarily related to reputation?

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Post by lostinwales Mon 08 Sep 2014, 11:00 am

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I disagree Scrumpy.

Welsh played the system and were deserved winners of the play offs. Bristol choked and were terrible in the final, despite shelling out the cash.

From experience, the championship is a tough league. Any team coming through it are deserving of a crack at the AP.


I would have liked to have seen the lads who won promotion give it a crack!

They needed more quality. I think 6 started today???

Dunno if a comparison is worthy, but Exe's first Prem game featured 13 starters from the previous Championship season with, I think, 5 more on the bench. The other 2 starters had been signed from Bristol after the final, so it was an all championship team. Just 4 of those were on duty today, which makes me sad, but there are 4 more coming back from injury.

The bulk of the starting pack in that game, none with much previous elite experience, stayed till last season when 2 moved on and 2 retired through injury, and performed pretty well in Prem and HC.

Perhaps "quality" isn't necessarily related to reputation?

Maybe it all just helps to prove that Rugby is in fact a team game and its very very hard to create a team from scratch with 25 journeymen and past it players in a few weeks.

And it might be a hard judgement on the players involved, and I am sure they bring a whole bunch of talents to the table, but given that they were moving around and ended up at LW it would suggest that 'helping to form a core of a good team' may not be one of them

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Post by Geordie Mon 08 Sep 2014, 11:12 am

I bet all the guys who did the hard work getting them there and were released are having a laugh now!

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Post by Poorfour Mon 08 Sep 2014, 11:21 am

London Welsh's performance was captured for me by Tim Molenaar - I repeatedly watched him straighten the line, take the tackle, keep his arms free and throw an offload... to a player who was never there to receive it. The understanding between players in the team just wasn't there.
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Post by Geordie Mon 08 Sep 2014, 11:25 am

They could quite easily get that familiarity...but the problem is it may take till Christmas to get that in gametime...and by then it could be too late...ala Worcester last season.

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