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Post by GSC Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:07 am

The ICC is determined to draw a line in the sand it seems. Apparently they'll have a new gadget soonish that measures the bend of the arm as players bowl.
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Post by Mike Selig Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:46 am

Have to say I'm in a bit of a dilemna over this. I mean I get that it's cricket not baseball yada yada, but I think the doosra is an amazing bit of skill (I've tried chucking the odd one for a laugh and yes you can turn it, but try and bowl it 22 yards with any kind of accuracy) and part of me thinks batsmen have enough things going their way at the moment.

It's worth remembering that a long time ago bowling overarm was viewed as unfair, not in the spirit of the game etc. As were leg-side shots. More recently we had a shortish argument over the switch-hit (another amazing bit of skill).

Part of me thinks spinners should be allowed to chuck, or at least the degree of flex increased for them (but to how much? say you say 20 degrees, of course in time spinners will come along and try to eek out as much as they can with that as well, with some inevitably going over the line and being banned as a result, and then we have the whole debate all over again). Another, possibly more sensible, part of me says that this is possibly a point of no return.

I don't know basically. Thoughts?

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Post by seanmichaels Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:47 am

About bloody time. Need to get rid of chuckers, league cricket is becoming a joke because of a few high profile spinners in the international game who have got away with it.

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Post by Biltong Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:12 am

I don't understand this, if Ajmal was chucking, how does it take years to realise it?
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Post by GSC Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:14 am

The ICC seems to have decided to take a stand against it recently.
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Post by Biltong Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:16 am

Why now?
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Post by freemo Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:20 am

every delivery is illegal.....that will take a long time to rectify...

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Post by GSC Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:22 am

godknows
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 09 Sep 2014, 12:10 pm

Mike, it seems though it's not just his doosra that's been called illegal but his offspinner too. I do find it very difficult to understand why it's taken quite so long for Ajmal to have his action looked into.

I agree with GSC that there does seem to be quite a clampdown on these recently (almost only off-spin bowlers). off the top of my head, we've had in recent times:
- Shillingford, banned from bowling his doosra
- Samuels, banned from bowling his quicker ball
- Senanayake
- Williamson
- I think a BD spinner was recently banned or reported?
- Ajmal

You do wonder whether Murali would have escaped the crackdown had he still been playing international cricket...

From a purely personal perspective, I'm a bit torn like Mike. On the one hand, Ajmal (with Swann, and to a lesser degree Herath) has led a resurgence for off-spin bowlers over the last 8 years or so. And indeed, so many things seem to be in the batsman's favour nowadays (one of my main gripes is the bats they're allowed to use, it's become far too frequent IMO to see a batsman not get hold of a shot but still get six for it). On the other hand, there are laws (which, by and large, haven't changed very much over the years), and chucking is against them. I'm firmly of the opinion that bowlers shouldn't be allowed to chuck, but maybe as Mike says the guidelines could be loosened a bit for spinners? I don't know.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 09 Sep 2014, 12:28 pm

The icc is just a joke

Make up these new guidelines, ban people without giving then a chance to adapt

What a joke
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Post by kingraf Tue 09 Sep 2014, 1:10 pm

I don't know wether I've become more rebellious or mike's become more centralist in his cricketing ways, but I'm agreeing with him a lot recently. I'm on the border here, regarding the rule itself. for the reasons that Mime had stated. But... this Ajmal story is criminal. I know that sounds harsh. but really it's nothing short of victimisation. There is no way you can accept his action and the actions of his predecessors for nigh on twenty years, and then just ban him. Why hasn't he been given the chance to adapt? And why the hell is Root still bowling?
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Post by seanmichaels Tue 09 Sep 2014, 1:30 pm

I don't really get the problem everyone has? Akin to the cycling argument - they've been on IPO for years, why now? Obviously because testing is better.

Rules are rules and letting high profile bowlers chuck the ball has created a lot of problems. I've 10-13 year olds chucking it and coaches claim they've been 'tested'.

The argument that it levels up the playing field is ridiculous. I never saw Shane Warne or Swann chucking it?

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Post by kingraf Tue 09 Sep 2014, 1:35 pm

Ajmal is probably better than Swann, and had been for three four years beforehand too. Anyway, when is Root getting banned? No way that arm is straight.
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Post by seanmichaels Tue 09 Sep 2014, 1:56 pm

kingraf wrote:Ajmal is probably better than Swann, and had been for three four years beforehand too. Anyway, when is Root getting banned? No way that arm is straight.

Ajmal made is debut in 2009 as a 32 year old. Probably bowled with a straight arm before that.

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Post by kingraf Tue 09 Sep 2014, 1:58 pm

It is an impressive ball the doosra. I remember an Asian off spinner getting one through me a a year or two ago. Id gotten off to a decent to good start, scoring about 20 odd. The guy came on. first ball I sorta checked drive into the covers. second was a short ball which I careemed through the covers. Fourth ball was also a short ball, and rocked back to smash it through the covers again... took out my leg stump (I'm left handed)
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Post by Mike Selig Tue 09 Sep 2014, 8:21 pm

The parallel which equates allowing chucking with allowing cyclists (or other athletes) to use PEDs is cheap and misplaced: I don't think chucking can have severe consequences for the bowler's health; nor does it make it a battle as to who can afford the best doping program (which is what cycling became in the Armstrong years).

"Rules are rules" - maybe, but not too long ago any flex in the elbow was meant to be called, then that 5-7.5-10 mish-mash, then they found out most bowlers flexed 11-12 degrees anyway (although that science is still somewhat disputed) and Murali 14.5 and the allowable flex was changed to 15. Also, a much longer time ago, bowling overarm was illegal (and until as recently the 80s of course underarm was permitted). Or take the LBW law. Or even something simple as the number of balls in an over, or number of days in a test match. Or take the powerplay rules.

Rules change. A lot. That is not in itself an argument in favour of allowing chucking. As I said above, my argument is that the doosra is an astonishing piece of skill, whether chucked or bowled legally, and should be encouraged.

As to 13 year-olds chucking, maybe, maybe not. I have known a lot of (generally English and fairly elderly) people state that somebody is chucking when in reality it is clear to anybody who knows anything that they're not (they are bowling with a bent arm, which is not the same thing).

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Post by kingraf Tue 09 Sep 2014, 8:49 pm

Yep, it has to flex and then extend. If it's just flexed, or even flexed and extends <15, it's alright. I personally can't read the Doosra, but I can't read the googly either... Highveld boy. Give me 140 at the ribs all day long.
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Post by LondonTiger Fri 12 Sep 2014, 9:54 pm

Anyone who thinks chucking should be allowed:

a) go to the nets and practice bowling offspin with a bent arm that you straighten as you impart spin. at first you may struggle for length at first but you will be able to turn the ball at rightangles - in both directions.

b) Then face a quick bowler who chucks the ball in just short of a length. If the bowler is of decent pace and decent quality, you would deserve a bravery medal for staying in there 10 minutes. The ball will come quicker and bounce more than you have ever seen.



If a bowler looks like he is chucking the ball to the naked eye - he probably is. Ajmal tried to hide it by wearing the long shirt every time he bowled. Why picked up now - I suspect that the change at the top of the ICC has seen a hardening attitude allied to the pending WC. Add in the high profile MCC v RotW match at Lords where the bend and flex in Ajmals arm was shocking and you can see why the acted.

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Post by Mike Selig Sat 13 Sep 2014, 2:23 am

LondonTiger wrote:Anyone who thinks chucking should be allowed:

a) go to the nets and practice bowling offspin with a bent arm that you straighten as you impart spin. at first you may struggle for length at first but you will be able to turn the ball at rightangles - in both directions.

b) Then face a quick bowler who chucks the ball in just short of a length. If the bowler is of decent pace and decent quality, you would deserve a bravery medal for staying in there 10 minutes. The ball will come quicker and bounce more than you have ever seen.


Been there, done both of those.

Re a) I have already acknowledged that "chucking" allows you to turn the ball a lot more (and makes "bowling" a doosra a lot easier) but... I don't think it drastically reduces the skills it takes to get the ball down 22 yards and defeat the batsman in the air and off the pitch whilst doing it.

Re b) that is a gross over-exaggeration. I've led coaching sessions where we (usually I, until I get tired and then ask someone else to help out) chuck balls in short of a length at a batsman off usually 12-15 paces to get them to work on their ability against the short ball. Nobody has died from this yet. Or using a bowling machine on 90 miles an hour (so effectively 100 allowing for the difference in picking the ball up). Or the standard short ball drill where you serve tennis balls at them, now that IS fast.

I wonder whether had you been around when overarm bowling came in you would have argued that that was unsafe as well.

In any case I am not really arguing for simply all bowlers to be allowed to throw as they feel like. Rather the discussion is whether the restrictions on spin bowlers could be relaxed so as to allow the doosra to be bowled legally more easier (note: that whatever relaxation we could fathom would probably still exclude Ajmal is not a reason not to consider it anyway).

However if we were also to allow fast bowlers to throw as they feel like I am not sure the difference in pace would be that great (recall the the fastest pitch is baseball is just a smidgeon faster than the fastest ball in cricket). And those who threw would be bowling less long spells and have to have greater recovery time (again, a pitcher in baseball usually has to rest for several days afterwards; anybody who has done a series of throw-downs (fast) will know just how much strain it puts on the body). I am not sure either that it would be that much harder to bat against (having faced a number of "chuckers" myself, I have found them no harder* than facing orthodox bowlers, once you get over the unusualness of the action).

*I have actually found them easier, but I suspect that is because they were a bit rubbish. It would be an interesting test.

LondonTiger wrote:If a bowler looks like he is chucking the ball to the naked eye - he probably is.

Overly simplistic. See "bent arm" vs "throw" and see Murali. See also the complete misunderstanding of the general (and particularly English) public as to what chucking means (when people claim Malinga chucks for example...). Trust me, as someone who has spent some time defending a couple of young cricketers with unorthodox but perfectly legal actions against accusations of throwing... well let's just say some people don't have a clue.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 14 Sep 2014, 6:46 pm

Having faced some decent quick bowlers in the nets (Chris Silverwood for one) I can state quite categorically that when a 90mph bowler chucks on in just short of a length it rears quite nastily. Far more bounce than they get from a standard delivery. A ball that would normally be waist high was suddenly chin music.

I also completely disagree with you about the level of skill required to beat decent batsmen when you chuck the ball as a spinner. Hell the success of Akmal - a previously modest cricketer has even shown that.

And please, please never imply I am stupid and do not know what chucking means again.

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Post by freemo Sun 21 Sep 2014, 5:46 pm

probably won't be long until Narine is called..

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Post by DirectView2 Thu 25 Sep 2014, 8:49 pm

Chucking has become a serious issue, ICC in the past was very fearful to react to controversies so we have to be happy now that they have taken a bold step in the right direction to cleanse the game.

Ajmal was a great bowler and fun to watch, but yes he was chucking a lot and thankfully ICC finally woke up to take things a bit more serious, if this is not controlled then in the future becomes throwing than bowling.

Cricket is no baseball and proper Bowling action is mandatory.

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Post by kingraf Sun 28 Sep 2014, 9:25 pm

Interestingly Mike, I've tended to find chuckers at pace a harder proposition while getting in. But this, I feel, and I may be wrong, was due more to the fact that I am always a fraction early in my set up, due to a slight delay (for the recoil) in the bowler's action. Once in though, I don't think it's any different really to a normal fast bowler, with maybe the bouncer being a Little more venomous due to the second recoil.

Also, might I ask where the idea that Ajmal was previously an average cricketer came from? Made his FC debut at 18, was domestic player of the season in 2006. Maybe not signs of the havoc he would wreak in the Proceding years, but certainly signs that there was a good bowler there
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Post by KP_fan Sun 05 Oct 2014, 7:19 pm

The banning of Ajmal, Narine and one or two others recently is a clear trend and my information and analysis suggests the following:

1) Eng is driving these calls and Srini complying to show solidarity / support to friends in his new role.
When ( not if) he will ask for his pound of flesh, we will figure what it is ??

2) Any one who is a mystery , X factor bowler is being targeted.

3) the doosra is an art ,  a rare skill...and in my view the degree of flexing or straightening allowed for the doosra should modified.

4) And finally..... if they allowed Murali to retain his 1000s of international wickets......ICC has no moral right to stop much less severe offenders
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Post by KP_fan Thu 09 Oct 2014, 12:18 pm

and a number of ex-players have raised the issue of "timing of the crack-down"
too close to the world cup
and debilitates every team except the BIG three
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Post by kingraf Thu 09 Oct 2014, 12:21 pm

Doesn't debilitate us.
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Post by KP_fan Thu 09 Oct 2014, 8:40 pm

kingraf wrote:Doesn't debilitate us.

don't be so sure.....the cracking of whip ain't over yet...Duminy might be called Very Happy and that would be debilitating
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Post by kingraf Thu 09 Oct 2014, 11:23 pm

They could call Duminy. I wouldn't mind... I just wany Root to be called
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 10 Oct 2014, 11:09 am

what's this obsession with Root KR? in any case unless I'm mistaken he's hardly bowled in an international since this crackdown started (didn't bowl much this summer did he?), which might explain it.

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Post by kingraf Fri 10 Oct 2014, 11:18 am

Tbh - it's hardly an obsession, if anything, it's more symptomatic of how little I care about the crackdown. It's a little late in my life to care. If I was ever going to make it in cricket, I needed to be a batting spinning all rounder. Unfortunately, there was a fella who turned it square, with his arm to my eye similarly square... He got picked, I didn't, he'll now probably go nowhere. It happens.

As for Root - Again, just meh. Its just clear as day that he's chucking, and I'd like for it to be addressed.
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Post by seanmichaels Fri 10 Oct 2014, 11:56 am

Asians are the worst offenders.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 10 Oct 2014, 2:30 pm

seanmichaels wrote:Asians are the worst offenders.

Tru Dat laughing
they brought the evils of match fixing into UK also.

I think it is to do with black and brown color of skin......all but one part-timer from NZ called are brown or dark brown or bordering on black skin color
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